Thoughts on Today's Political Landscape

[smc]

Originally Posted by paladin68

What countries should we look to here? Europe? They're about to sink under their own weight of even worse fiscal mismanagement than we are going through. Europe's track record in the industrial revolution was 1: quickly eclipsed by the US and 2: was built largely on the backs of the working poor. Then, after nearly wiping itself out in The Great War, Russia went to communisim / stalinism & Germany, AFTER disarming its citizens (done by the Prussian elitists during the Weimar years) fell into nazism. France & Britain buried their heads in the sand and the resulting 20 year rematch was even worse. Are you also suggesting the eurozone's unemployment rate is lower than that of the US??? I haven't checked on this, but I would be surprised. I checked, It's 10.3% worse, as i expected.

I don't think we need to look to Europe.

Well, what about Japan? Sure. Japan, who's emperor was until 2 Sep 1945 was a Divine Being, has been in recession for well over 20 years straight.

There isn't much left, you're not suggesting China, are you???

No, we need to fix our own house and a good start is a change in the administration next year.

Don't put words in my mouth. I was quite clear about the social safety net. I said nothing about the European unemployment rate. Europe's problems are the result of global capital competition, not overspending on what makes Europeans have a better social safety net than the United States by orders of magnitude, the result of a social solidarity that Americans have been quite deliberately taught (falsely, to serve the interests of the ruling rich) is some kind of affront to their "liberty."

You presume that recessions, etc., are caused by social spending, and point to your examples. But something precedes those recessions, which is putting profits of corporations ahead of human needs and organizing government around ensuring that priority.

Finally, things like the Emperor of Japan being a Diving Being, etc., are clearly red herrings in a serious debate. Such an approach is transparently an attempt not to discuss the core of my post.

[paladin68]

Originally Posted by smc

Don't put words in my mouth. I was quite clear about the social safety net. I said nothing about the European unemployment rate. Europe's problems are the result of global capital competition, not overspending on what makes Europeans have a better social safety net than the United States by orders of magnitude, the result of a social solidarity that Americans have been quite deliberately taught (falsely, to serve the interests of the ruling rich) is some kind of affront to their "liberty."

You presume that recessions, etc., are caused by social spending, and point to your examples. But something precedes those recessions, which is putting profits of corporations ahead of human needs and organizing government around ensuring that priority.

Finally, things like the Emperor of Japan being a Diving Being, etc., are clearly red herrings in a serious debate. Such an approach is transparently an attempt not to discuss the core of my post.

Europe's social safety net will disintegrate if they continue to spend themselves into disaster.

You state you didn't say anything about the European unemployment rate, yet this phrase is an allusion to that: "and more gainfully engaged in work in larger percentages".

Europe (especially western Europe, but eastern Europe as well) ) owes its existence and relative problem free past 65 years to the United States. And I'm sure the 30-40 million who died at the hands of tyranny in WW2 would agree.

[smc]

Originally Posted by paladin68

Europe's social safety net will disintegrate if they continue to spend themselves into disaster.

You state you didn't say anything about the European unemployment rate, yet this phrase is an allusion to that: "and more gainfully engaged in work in larger percentages".

Europe (especially western Europe, but eastern Europe as well) ) owes its existence and relative problem free past 65 years to the United States. And I'm sure the 30-40 million who died at the hands of tyranny in WW2 would agree.

You seem to ignore whatever points in a post will not conveniently fit into your preconceived notions of the world. The first sentence of your post reveals that to be true, because you have ignored the essence of all of my posts in this particular exchange, which have to do with changing the paradigm. And if that happens, the spending disaster to which you refer would not even be a concern.

But I understand how these things work. Heaven forbid we should think differently than the ways in which we have been taught in American schools, that is, the asinine notion that we are all better off when are in it for ourselves.

[paladin68]

Aren't you part of the American school system?

This refers to Europe, does it not:
"It's designed to keep Americans from adopting the kind of social solidarity that created, in most of the world's other industrialized nations, a communal sense of social good that explains why people elsewhere are happier, healthier, and more gainfully engaged in work in larger percentages, "

Well, it's not a recipe for success. Western Europe has been under the American Nuclear Umbrella for the past 65 years, and have not had to spend anywhere near as much on their own defense as the US, yet they are still on the brink of fiscal disaster due to excessive unsustainable spending. Your utopia is going broke faster then the US.

They have had a greater proportion of their national wealth to make things better, yet they are still on the edge or a disaster. And you want the US to do gown that same road???

[smc]

Originally Posted by paladin68

Aren't you part of the American school system?

This refers to Europe, does it not:
"It's designed to keep Americans from adopting the kind of social solidarity that created, in most of the world's other industrialized nations, a communal sense of social good that explains why people elsewhere are happier, healthier, and more gainfully engaged in work in larger percentages, "

Well, it's not a recipe for success. Western Europe has been under the American Nuclear Umbrella for the past 65 years, and have not had to spend anywhere near as much on their own defense as the US, yet they are still on the brink of fiscal disaster due to excessive unsustainable spending. Your utopia is going broke faster then the US.

They have had a greater proportion of their national wealth to make things better, yet they are still on the edge or a disaster. And you want the US to do gown that same road???

I teach at a university, and I don't teach that crap.

I want the United States to go down a road that puts people before profits, period. You continue to ignore what I clearly wrote to make your points. Your comparisons to Europe are not the comparisons I made, and they are irrelevant to my thinking-outside-the-box point earlier on. I did not say we should be Europe, only that more social spending is better. And I stand by that. Sure, under capitalism, where the entire trajectory is to greater and greater exploitation, it is a recipe for disaster if one country tries to buck the trend in a global economy. But that's not what I'm talking about, and I believe you are smart enough to know that. But it's okay: if trying to ghost ideas and making it seem as if they're mine is all you've got, have at it.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by smc

I want the United States to go down a road that puts people before profits, period. You continue to ignore what I clearly wrote to make your points. Your comparisons to Europe are not the comparisons I made, and they are irrelevant to my thinking-outside-the-box point earlier on. I did not say we should be Europe, only that more social spending is better.

When you say put people before profits, do you mean back rubs? Those can be free. Are you talking about services to people that cost little or nothing? Because without profits you can't offer much. Paladin was talking about how Europe can afford to devote more of their resources towards social programs because we take on a lot of their defense burden. Yet even so, they are going under. Whether you're talking about Europe or not, this is an example of what happens.

If not Europe, which country or countries should we emulate?

[smc]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

When you say put people before profits, do you mean back rubs? Those can be free. Are you talking about services to people that cost little or nothing? Because without profits you can't offer much. Paladin was talking about how Europe can afford to devote more of their resources towards social programs because we take on a lot of their defense burden. Yet even so, they are going under. Whether you're talking about Europe or not, this is an example of what happens.

If not Europe, which country or countries should we emulate?

I wonder whether, when you make a sarcastically banal comment such as "do you mean back rubs?," you sit back and stare at the computer screen, beaming with pride at how clever you are. But in fact such a comment only solidifies the view that most of the positions you take on this site reveal a coldheartedness that goes along with your general lack of regard for the great mass of people who are less fortunate than you through no fault of their own, but because of a system that relegates them to homelessness, joblessness, hunger, and so on.

Nevertheless, I will point out that European countries enjoyed far greater social protections for their citizens long before the United States became the source of their defense "budgets." Further, I have not suggested emulating any specific country or countries, only pointed to the fact of greater social safety in certain countries. I will not fall into your trap, and that of paladin68, to name countries to emulate. I call it a trap, because just as you are sitting back enjoying your banal sarcasm, I have no doubt you are desperately hoping I will mention Cuba or some other place so that you can then change the substance of the discussion.

No, there is no country to emulate, only an idea. A very powerful idea. It is that society can be organized to put human needs first. Profits are not necessary. Those of you who worship the market, the false god that your high priests claim can deliver every good thing to the mass of people but reveals itself time and again to be a tool of exploitation and enrichment of the few, can smugly call me a communist or whatever you want. The good news is that you don't get to decide how things will turn out. It will be either barbarism, as the decrepit system you so love destroys people and the earth, or it will be something we haven't seen before. And then you will have to make a choice of whether to throw your lot in with those whose interests are actually closest to yours.

[paladin68]

Originally Posted by smc

...I did not say we should be Europe, only that more social spending is better. And I stand by that. ....

So how do you reconcile the above with this from earlier on:

"...from adopting the kind of social solidarity that created, in most of the world's other industrialized nations, a communal sense of social good..."

When you are referring to "most of the world's other industrialized nations" you are referring to europe, and look where all that good social spending has landed them.

[smc]

Originally Posted by paladin68

So how do you reconcile the above with this from earlier on:

"...from adopting the kind of social solidarity that created, in most of the world's other industrialized nations, a communal sense of social good..."

When you are referring to "most of the world's other industrialized nations" you are referring to europe, and look where all that good social spending has landed them.

The operative words in what you quoted are "the kind of social solidarity that created ... a communal sense of social good."

That Europe has gotten closest is a good example. I will make it clear for the last time: whether I did not write specifically that I do not seek to emulate European social democracies exactly in my earlier writing, I state it now. I am talking about something that transcends even Europe.

Happy now?