Liberal free for all coming to an end

Smc, Enoch, Randolph and others… You really aren’t going to be able to “win” this one. I have been monitoring this thread (and similar ones) for quite a while now. Tracy has the game down pat and no matter how well thought out, logical or well presented your arguments are you will never get her to admit you are right. Any more than Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, or Rush Limbaugh would.

This “discussion” is not political discourse--there is no debate of “ideas.” And no attempt at resolution or understanding. There is only name calling, “I didn’t say that,” and recitation of right wing partisan “talking points” and dubious facts that any 12 year old could learn from listening to Rush Limbaugh. False choices are often presented as well: “where would you rather live than the US?” is not really a valid question. It completely omits the fact that the person objecting to capitalist greed, lack of universal health care, racism, homophobia, etc. may want to STAY in the US--indeed they have a RIGHT to live in the US as a citizen--only to want to make things better.

I was raised in a conservative Republican home and read Ayn Rand at a very early age. My degrees include an MBA and a minor in Economics so please, spare me your attempts at “educating” me. As I have gotten older and seen the failures of our socioeconomic system I have developed a much more inclusive view of the world that includes a greater role of government. At the same time I am a champion of individual rights and freedom. As you might expect, I have very complex views on many subjects and enjoy a friendly discussion of genuine “ideas” with people I know and respect.

Unfortunately, these threads are not the place for that. I for one am tired of logging on to TLB only to see “Ronald Reagan,” or “Liberal Free for All…” or whatever at the top of the page when it should say something like “Kelly Shore and Rakel Rodriguez Together” or “Support for Victims of Violence” or even “RU Gay 4 Liking Shemales.” Who knows, I could be totally wrong about all of this. I for the most part, have totally ignored these postings before and will continue to do so once again.

[smc]

Originally Posted by aw9725

Smc, Enoch, Randolph and others? You really aren?t going to be able to ?win? this one. I have been monitoring this thread (and similar ones) for quite a while now. Tracy has the game down pat and no matter how well thought out, logical or well presented your arguments are you will never get her to admit you are right. Any more than Sarah Palin, Glen Beck, or Rush Limbaugh would.

This ?discussion? is not political discourse--there is no debate of ?ideas.? And no attempt at resolution or understanding. There is only name calling, ?I didn?t say that,? and recitation of right wing partisan ?talking points? and dubious facts that any 12 year old could learn from listening to Rush Limbaugh. False choices are often presented as well: ?where would you rather live than the US?? is not really a valid question. It completely omits the fact that the person objecting to capitalist greed, lack of universal health care, racism, homophobia, etc. may want to STAY in the US--indeed they have a RIGHT to live in the US as a citizen--only to want to make things better.

I was raised in a conservative Republican home and read Ayn Rand at a very early age. My degrees include an MBA and a minor in Economics so please, spare me your attempts at ?educating? me. As I have gotten older and seen the failures of our socioeconomic system I have developed a much more inclusive view of the world that includes a greater role of government. At the same time I am a champion of individual rights and freedom. As you might expect, I have very complex views on many subjects and enjoy a friendly discussion of genuine ?ideas? with people I know and respect.

Unfortunately, these threads are not the place for that. I for one am tired of logging on to TLB only to see ?Ronald Reagan,? or ?Liberal Free for All?? or whatever at the top of the page when it should say something like ?Kelly Shore and Rakel Rodriguez Together? or ?Support for Victims of Violence? or even ?RU Gay 4 Liking Shemales.? Who knows, I could be totally wrong about all of this. I for the most part, have totally ignored these postings before and will continue to do so once again.

You are absolutely correct. The ONLY value of "engaging" Tracy (and I realize that using the word "engaging" is an insult to the real engagement that goes on in genuine discourse) is the value that accrues to those who read but do not post, and who may -- even if only a bit -- figure out that drivel such as that spewed in these threads again and again warrants at least a critical eye, not the fealty to ignorance that tends to accompany the statement of such drivel.

[randolph]

OK all you passionate political posters, let's see who can identify the author of the following passage.

The word ?We? is as lime poured over men, which sets and hardens to stone, and crushes all beneath it, and that which is white and that which is black are lost equally in the grey of it. It is the word by which the depraved steal the virtue of the good, by which the weak steal the might of the strong, by which the fools steal the wisdom of the sages.
What is my joy if all hands, even the unclean, can reach into it? What is my wisdom, if even the fools can dictate to me? What is my freedom, if all creatures, even the botched and impotent, are my masters? What is my life, if I am but to bow, to agree and to obey?
But I am done with this creed of corruption.
I am done with the monster ?We?, the word of serfdom, of plunder, of misery, falsehood and shame.
And now I see the face of god, and I raise this god over the earth, this god whom men have sought since men came into being, this god will grant them joy and peace and pride.
This god is one word: ?I?

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK all you passionate political posters, let's see who can identify the author of the following passage.

It's from Ayn Rand.

Big deal.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

It's from Ayn Rand.

Big deal.

What I was going to point out is that Ayn Rand is worshiped by conservatives. Her concept of the ego centered individual indulging in a "free market" is the center piece of Reagan and subsequent Republican Presidents. It was further fostered by Milton Friedman and Alan Greenspan.
The US was founded on "We the people". The founders understood the principle of cooperation for mutual benefit, WE will do it. The turmoil building in this country is the direct result of conservatives diminishing the public for personal benefit.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by ila

It's from Ayn Rand.

I like Ayn Rand. A rare atheist conservative like me.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I like Ayn Rand. A rare atheist conservative like me.

Tracy and I agree on something! The two books I read were Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. Both when I was in my teens.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

There are other avenues for people in need to get help. It doesn't always have to come from the government. In 2006, Americans have donated $295 billion to charities. The amount donated has been rising about 150% faster than the economy for more than 50 years. Americans have been much more generous than other countries to charities.

Like what other countries? Bangladesh, Burma, Burundi, Haiti, Liberia, Nicaragua or others who have real issues to survive? With that you try to put the USA in a perspective that is not true.
I said it before http://forum.transladyboy.com/showth...065#post164103
Only the total amount of money can look good. And this is only because you have a high population with a high GDP/GDI. With these facts you always look not so good, as country or per citizen.
But you have statistics where you are at top and mostly #1, like military expenses (total nearly 50% of the world military expenses and second per GDP), most prisoners (total and incarceration), crime rates that can compared to the worst countries in the world, the highest health costs of all, and not to talk about your eco-balance.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by aw9725

Tracy and I agree on something! The two books I read were Atlas Shrugged and The Fountainhead. Both when I was in my teens.

I read her book "Anthem" written in 1937. Her writing reflected the times. Many people thought communism was the wave of the future, she strongly disagreed. She grew up in Russia during the revolution and the takeover by the Bolsheviks. She saw the brutality, the oppression and the lack of freedom of a collectivist society. It strongly colored her future writing.
In my opinion, her writing is somewhat adolescent and rather naive. She doesn't understand the essence of humanity which is cooperative effort. She is basically sociopathic in her out look. I guess that's why she is popular with conservatives.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK all you passionate political posters, let's see who can identify the author of the following passage.

A selfish bitch who is more interested in self-glorification than empowering and educating people?

...That's what Ayn Rand means in Ta?no, right?...

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK all you passionate political posters, let's see who can identify the author of the following passage.

Ayn Rand-The biggest philosophy poser of all time.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by smc

You are absolutely correct. The ONLY value of "engaging" Tracy (and I realize that using the word "engaging" is an insult to the real engagement that goes on in genuine discourse) is the value that accrues to those who read but do not post, and who may -- even if only a bit -- figure out that drivel such as that spewed in these threads again and again warrants at least a critical eye, not the fealty to ignorance that tends to accompany the statement of such drivel.

Agreed.

aw9725: you are completely correct. There is no real substantive discussion going on here. There is no exciting exchange of ideas. But this is because Tracy brings no substance whatever to this thread or other threads, no substance whatever to the forum as a whole. You, smc, randolph and myself try our best to bring real ideas. Tracy only brings half-baked tirades about...everything. And when two--or however many people are involved in a discussion--people in a discussion do not both bring real ideas the discussion breaks down.

But while this is by no means a real discussion as may be had by, say, biological evolutionists about the placement of a fossil in the evolutionary tree, it is precisely due to the vapid nature of Tracy's post that some of us counter her. I, for one, do not do this for her sake. I do it for the sake of the readers and members of this forum. To paraphrase Bill Maher: in America bullshit spreads real fast and you have to get in there quick to get rid of it before it reaches critical mass.

smc: Fealty to ignorance. Love that phrase. I'm stealing it for my short stories...