Ronald Reagan

[randolph]

Enoch vs Tracy
A very impressive point/counterpoint discussion. Keep at it you guys but don't forget this thread is about Ronny.

[randolph]

OK let's get back to Ronnie and what David Stockman has to say.
Stage 4. New American Revolution class-warfare coming soon

Finally, thanks to Republican policies that let us "live beyond our means for decades by borrowing heavily from abroad, we have steadily sent jobs and production offshore," while at home "high-value jobs in goods production ... trade, transportation, information technology and the professions shrunk by 12% to 68 million from 77 million."
As the apocalypse draws near, Stockman sees a class-rebellion, a new revolution, a war against greed and the wealthy. Soon. The trigger will be the growing gap between economic classes: No wonder "that during the last bubble (from 2002 to 2006) the top 1% of Americans -- paid mainly from the Wall Street casino -- received two-thirds of the gain in national income, while the bottom 90% -- mainly dependent on Main Street's shrinking economy -- got only 12%. This growing wealth gap is not the market's fault. It's the decaying fruit of bad economic policy."
Get it? The decaying fruit of the GOP's bad economic policies is destroying our economy.

[Buddy]

George HW Bush won an award today, Jeez, at least that guy had a conscience.
But I'll tell you one thing, the Gurus on Wall street know things we can't even grasp in our semi-honest little heads. The Middle Class will win when the money's all gone. And we'll all be saying "What the fuck happened?"

[randolph]

Well, you guys (Tracy and Enoch) both have some good points. However
I had a secure University job for many years, raised a family and put them through college. I took early retirement and went into business producing an agricultural product. I quickly learned how difficult it is to run a small business and there is no job security. Finding workers willing to work nine hours a day six days a week is extremely difficult. I tried to hire local guys but they were worthless and not willing to work long hours. The best workers were from Guatemala. They grew up on farms and were used to real work for long hours. Without those hard working guys we would not have survived. I put in more hours than they did, by the way. It was a constant struggle to pay the wages, the endless bills, the taxes and complying with regulations.
Running a small business is not easy!
It is very hard for me to see these assholes on Wallstreet making tons of money while sitting at a computer all day.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Then you should probably correct wikipedia on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries

China: Life expectancy … …of the population over age 15 are literate.

Cuba: Health … Life expectancy in Cuba is 78 years. Literacy rate is 97%.

Laos: …

Vietnam: …

In comparison, US life expectancy is 78 years, and the literacy rate is 99%. Your assertion that these countries I'm assuming are socialist are healthier and better educated is false. I didn't find a happiness scale, but I think we can assume that health and education plays into that.

There are socialist countries, Tracy named the current ones.
But the quote

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier!

is taken out of context. Subsequent, the response is not applicable. Also Tracy compares countries with big differences on the human developing index and different preconditions, which makes it a bit unfair to compare these on long lasting facts like life expectancy and literacy rate.

Enoch Root wrote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is not a single socialist country in the world. The ones you are likely speaking of are social democracies where the government, at the encouragement of the people, is made to face up to the inequalities inherent in capitalism (where a small group of people own all the land and have all the money and power, just like the empires of old, for what is capitalism but the newest version of empire?) and try to provide services for the people. And contrary to the garbage people like you tend to sling, they the citizens of this or that social democracy do not do this because they are weak, because they want a "nanny state," but because capitalism concentrates all the money and power in a small group of new age lords and kings. And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier! …

I assume Enoch Root refers, among others, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and west European countries, who mostly have better stats in those areas.

I found a Happy Planet Index. I can not speak for all countries but I have a few doubts about the ranking. I.e. some of the North African or Middle East ones didn’t seem/seemed that happy these days. It could be a clue that plays into happiness. See point 3. Views in the Link.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

If no one were poor, how does capitalism suffer? It doesn't. It goes along just fine. That's more people who can buy goods and services. More opportunities to sell your products. And instead of illegals doing grunt work you'd have American teens and lower 20s working again.

I think capitalism doesn’t work without the poor. There are even big ones that need illegal immigrants. A lot of industries are based on cheap workers. If you pay them enough to not be poor, everything would cost more so most people buy less goods and services.

[randolph]

I think capitalism doesn?t work without the poor. There are even big ones that need illegal immigrants. A lot of industries are based on cheap workers. If you pay them enough to not be poor, everything would cost more so most people buy less goods and services.

Henry Ford changed that paradigm. Before the model T, cars could only be afforded by the rich. Ford realized if he paid his workers enough (five dollars a day) they could afford to buy his cars. This set the stage for the development of the American middle class that prospered for many years. We built all the things we wanted, cars, radios, tv sets, whatever. Workers were reasonably well paid. We could buy modest houses and a car to get to work.
Everything started to change when we began to import major items like tv sets and cars. This put increasing pressure on the blue collar part of the middle class. Various types of welfare was established (ie food stamps, etc), government expanded dramatically. National debt exploded. Everything is imported. In the final years of our country, everyone is poor because the rich have moved away with all the money.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by randolph

Henry Ford changed that paradigm. Before the model T, cars could only be afforded by the rich. Ford realized if he paid his workers enough (five dollars a day) they could afford to buy his cars. This set the stage for the development of the American middle class that prospered for many years. We built all the things we wanted, cars, radios, tv sets, whatever. Workers were reasonably well paid. We could buy modest houses and a car to get to work.

Back then the raw material costs were the biggest price factor, if paid your workers generous, the final price didn?t change much. But now the workers are the biggest factor, if you pay them less the final price changes significant. And cheapest workers are not in our countries, or not legal.
What I have no clue about in the newer time are the Stock Exchanges. Without changes in offer and demand or any services the price seems to rise magically.