Ronald Reagan

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

If it went dry, the oil well workers would still get paid. They do not take on the risk. It's the guy who makes all the investments who stands to loose everything.

Again, you keep viewing things in terms of money rather than in terms of people. The oil workers will see very little money from the oil and we the people will see none of it because the ruling class takes it all for itself instead of it being used for the betterment of us all. The workers will see very little even though they are the ones who worked to get to the oil. Whereas the investor, who did nothing, gets all the money. The rich get richer because the system is built for their benefit, because the system works on the backs of the working class while the rich go about at their leisure. They use us in order to have a good life while we toil endlessly. Have you noticed people have no time for family anymore? That both parents work in order to provide for their family but it is still not enough?

The last 20 years have been terrible for the working class whereas the rich have been reaping obscene rewards and now they are doing even better after the stimulus. You keep giving precedence to those who truly freeload, that is to say the rich, over those who truly work, that is to say the working class. The people of America may be many things but lazy is not one of them. We the people suffer and we suffer not only at the hands of the rich but those who pander to them like you. What you fail to recognize--but more likely, what you recognize but are comfortable with--is that capitalism is a gigantic pyramid scheme where the base is composed of us and on our backs sit the ruling class siphoning all the money we generate from us. Why should they have all the land and all the money and all the resources? We the people should own our land, not the rich. We the people should own the oil, for example. It is not a fantasy. You on the other hand are an apologist for those who oppress us. Why should any government or private industry be allowed to stand that hogs all the necessities of life on this planet?

There is not a single socialist country in the world. The ones you are likely speaking of are social democracies where the government, at the encouragement of the people, is made to face up to the inequalities inherent in capitalism (where a small group of people own all the land and have all the money and power, just like the empires of old, for what is capitalism but the newest version of empire?) and try to provide services for the people. And contrary to the garbage people like you tend to sling, they the citizens of this or that social democracy do not do this because they are weak, because they want a "nanny state," but because capitalism concentrates all the money and power in a small group of new age lords and kings. And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier! Whereas Americans don't have a clue how to relate to each other as people, no one speaks to one another (ever lived in a suburb like me? everyone in their prisons of wood, no one speaking with their neighbors, no large community dinners, everything tv and internet and the zombie catatonia of it all). Whereas Americans are obese and deeply ignorant of their own history or basic facts about astronomy or evolution (case in point: many in your country are convinced the Founding Fathers were Christian, 20% think the sun revolves around the earth, and there's the endless stream of bullshit from creationists) and god forbid you ever get sick because you'll lose all your possessions to the sharks at insurance companies.

All of this, of course, may have reached apotheosis in the form of this Tea Party phenomenon: they name themselves after a tax revolt that was about taxation WITHOUT representation as opposed to their delusion that it was about high taxes, these people think the Constitution was handed to them by Jesus himself (I've seen the painting and it is not encouraging), these people think Mexican immigrants are the biggest problem facing America (it's not, that title goes to private industry), and that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy (it doesn't, the last 20 odd years shows as much and the money the rich have are ill-gotten gains, bloodmoney, anyway, garnered on the backs of the citizens of the world and war and death, because that is what a capitalist country does--it invades country after country for resources and slaves, the separation of the "free market" and the government is an illusion, because they always get the government to make war on some place or another or to make friendly with the government of some other place in order to set up branches of their company over there).

And people move to the US because you've very effectively sold the lie of the American Dream. It doesn't mean they would approve of your human rights abuses. If I remember correctly the US is like 20th place or lower (if not 30th) in social mobility. The countries of Europe are now higher up on the list. It sounds like your attempt at argumentum ad populum (either they do all agree with the massacres the US commits around the world or they don't but they still gather on your land in great numbers, in either case it does not mean you are correct). And it is rather difficult for people to move to countries that have greater freedom than the US when 1) the rich have taken all their money from them and 2) the propaganda from your media with their vapid incessant cries of "Best freest country in the world!" do not report things as they are.

One last tiny note for randolph: it is not military socialism. It is military welfare or corporate welfare. But they unlike the people do not need it and do not deserve it.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Again, you keep viewing things in terms of money rather than in terms of people. The oil workers will see very little money from the oil and we the people will see none of it because the ruling class takes it all for itself instead of it being used for the betterment of us all. The workers will see very little even though they are the ones who worked to get to the oil. Whereas the investor, who did nothing, gets all the money. The rich get richer because the system is built for their benefit, because the system works on the backs of the working class while the rich go about at their leisure.

Perhaps it is you who keeps viewing things in terms of money. I'd even say obsessed with money.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

They use us in order to have a good life while we toil endlessly. Have you noticed people have no time for family anymore? That both parents work in order to provide for their family but it is still not enough?

In high school, my grades sucked. Yet I seem to be able to provide for my 3 kids and save for their college expenses on my own just fine.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The last 20 years have been terrible for the working class whereas the rich have been reaping obscene rewards and now they are doing even better after the stimulus.

I seem to remember a time within the last 20 years where college dropouts were getting salaries of $45K or more on their first professional job. Unemployment was around 5%, and stocks were skyrocketing.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

You keep giving precedence to those who truly freeload, that is to say the rich, over those who truly work

Please explain how I am portraying this rich person as a freeloader:

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

You can't just blindly work without a direction. You get an idea, then you work on it. Eventually, if your idea is profitable then your work will pay off, and you can afford to hire workers to help with increasing demands. If you do it right, you can continue to profit, and use those profits to continue to grow the company. If the company is successful enough, then yes, you can afford to keep some of those profits yourself. And why not? It was your idea that started the whole thing. It was your sweat that turned it into reality back when you worked much longer hours than your workers do now and for free because it all went into the company.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We the people suffer and we suffer not only at the hands of the rich but those who pander to them like you.

I'm not sure who these suffering people are, but the democrats want their voters to suffer. If they did not suffer, why would they need all these big government social programs? Who do the democrats actively go out and seek for support? Those that need booze in exchange for registering. Those that need to be bussed to the voting booths. Illegal aliens. People who don't even have a drivers license. They go on and on about the plight of the poor, but very rarely to you see them tell the poor to get their shit together. To quit buying $90 shoes and put that towards improving their lives. To stop this idea that going to college and making something of yourself makes you 'too white'.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

What you fail to recognize--but more likely, what you recognize but are comfortable with--is that capitalism is a gigantic pyramid scheme where the base is composed of us and on our backs sit the ruling class siphoning all the money we generate from us.

If no one were poor, how does capitalism suffer? It doesn't. It goes along just fine. That's more people who can buy goods and services. More opportunities to sell your products. And instead of illegals doing grunt work you'd have American teens and lower 20s working again.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

We the people should own our land, not the rich.

I do own my land.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is not a single socialist country in the world.

Then you should probably correct wikipedia on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier!

China: Life expectancy is 73 years. 12% of the population is malnourished. Health is improving though with the introduction of western style medical facilities. China still has several emerging health problems though such as respiratory problems as a result of widespread air pollution, HIV/AIDS beginning to approach epidemic proportions, increasing obesity, and close living quarters lead to disease outbreaks like SARS (a pneumonia-like disease). It's estimated that 760,000 people per years die from environmental pollution. China is the world's largest producer of CO2. 90% of China's cities suffer from some degree of water pollution. 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water. 93.3% of the population over age 15 are literate.

Cuba: Health challenges include low pay of doctors (only $15 a month), poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and frequent absence of essential drugs. Life expectancy in Cuba is 78 years. Literacy rate is 97%.

Laos: Life expectancy is at 64 years. Healthy life expectancy was at 54 in 2006. In 2006, two fifths of the population were not using an improved water resource. The total Literacy Rate Is 73%.

Vietnam: Life expectancy is 74. Malnutrition is common in provinces. Tuberculosis claims 57 lives per day. 40-50 new infections per day of HIV. They receive funding from the US to fight AIDS. Literacy rate is 90%. Facing serious crises, Vietnam's education system is under a holistic reform launched by the government.

In comparison, US life expectancy is 78 years, and the literacy rate is 99%. Your assertion that these countries I'm assuming are socialist are healthier and better educated is false. I didn't find a happiness scale, but I think we can assume that health and education plays into that.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Whereas Americans are obese and deeply ignorant of their own history or basic facts about astronomy or evolution (case in point: many in your country are convinced the Founding Fathers were Christian, 20% think the sun revolves around the earth, and there's the endless stream of bullshit from creationists).... These people think the Constitution was handed to them by Jesus himself.

There is an effort by the left to downplay the role of the Founding Fathers, and an effort by the right to keep fueling creationist BS. That is true. And yes, many on the right try to claim that the Constitution was handed to the founding fathers by Jesus, or God. That is also BS and I wish it would stop.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

and god forbid you ever get sick because you'll lose all your possessions to the sharks at insurance companies.

Evidence?

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

All of this, of course, may have reached apotheosis in the form of this Tea Party phenomenon: they name themselves after a tax revolt that was about taxation WITHOUT representation as opposed to their delusion that it was about high taxes

Under the 1st two years of the Obama regime the American people were not represented. There were numerous protests about the national health care system where the democrats were trying to ram it down our throats despite the fact that the majority of Americans did not want it. There was also the problem of the numerous stimulus packages that Americans did not support and subsidizing mortgages of those who defaulted on their loans. The American people were NOT being represented. Here is the genesis of the modern Tea Party.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEDlod2V80U

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

these people think Mexican immigrants are the biggest problem facing America

It ranks pretty high. Beyond the obvious, that they are coming into the country illegally (something any other country would prosecute sternly) and taking jobs away from those poor suffering Americans you speak of, and that they don't pay taxes, yet reap the benefits of those taxes, there is an epidemic of well armed gangs in Mexico right along our borders. I have a Mexican friend. She went back to Mexico for the first time in 3 years to visit family. She said she was told to stay indoors at night because of the gangs, which was unusual before, and has also seen mid-easterners hanging out with these gangs. It's very easy for Al Qaeda operatives to come into the US through the Mexican border.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And people move to the US because you've very effectively sold the lie of the American Dream. It doesn't mean they would approve of your human rights abuses.

lol whatever. What is the ideal country on this planet, and why aren't you there? Don't use the excuse that it costs too much. History is full of examples of very poor people leaving everything behind to come to America. If there is a will, there is a way. If things are that bad here, a reporter reassuring people that all is well is not going to change what they can see for themselves.

[randolph]

Enoch vs Tracy
A very impressive point/counterpoint discussion. Keep at it you guys but don't forget this thread is about Ronny.

[randolph]

OK let's get back to Ronnie and what David Stockman has to say.
Stage 4. New American Revolution class-warfare coming soon

Finally, thanks to Republican policies that let us "live beyond our means for decades by borrowing heavily from abroad, we have steadily sent jobs and production offshore," while at home "high-value jobs in goods production ... trade, transportation, information technology and the professions shrunk by 12% to 68 million from 77 million."
As the apocalypse draws near, Stockman sees a class-rebellion, a new revolution, a war against greed and the wealthy. Soon. The trigger will be the growing gap between economic classes: No wonder "that during the last bubble (from 2002 to 2006) the top 1% of Americans -- paid mainly from the Wall Street casino -- received two-thirds of the gain in national income, while the bottom 90% -- mainly dependent on Main Street's shrinking economy -- got only 12%. This growing wealth gap is not the market's fault. It's the decaying fruit of bad economic policy."
Get it? The decaying fruit of the GOP's bad economic policies is destroying our economy.

[Buddy]

George HW Bush won an award today, Jeez, at least that guy had a conscience.
But I'll tell you one thing, the Gurus on Wall street know things we can't even grasp in our semi-honest little heads. The Middle Class will win when the money's all gone. And we'll all be saying "What the fuck happened?"

[randolph]

Well, you guys (Tracy and Enoch) both have some good points. However
I had a secure University job for many years, raised a family and put them through college. I took early retirement and went into business producing an agricultural product. I quickly learned how difficult it is to run a small business and there is no job security. Finding workers willing to work nine hours a day six days a week is extremely difficult. I tried to hire local guys but they were worthless and not willing to work long hours. The best workers were from Guatemala. They grew up on farms and were used to real work for long hours. Without those hard working guys we would not have survived. I put in more hours than they did, by the way. It was a constant struggle to pay the wages, the endless bills, the taxes and complying with regulations.
Running a small business is not easy!
It is very hard for me to see these assholes on Wallstreet making tons of money while sitting at a computer all day.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Then you should probably correct wikipedia on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries

China: Life expectancy … …of the population over age 15 are literate.

Cuba: Health … Life expectancy in Cuba is 78 years. Literacy rate is 97%.

Laos: …

Vietnam: …

In comparison, US life expectancy is 78 years, and the literacy rate is 99%. Your assertion that these countries I'm assuming are socialist are healthier and better educated is false. I didn't find a happiness scale, but I think we can assume that health and education plays into that.

There are socialist countries, Tracy named the current ones.
But the quote

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier!

is taken out of context. Subsequent, the response is not applicable. Also Tracy compares countries with big differences on the human developing index and different preconditions, which makes it a bit unfair to compare these on long lasting facts like life expectancy and literacy rate.

Enoch Root wrote:

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

There is not a single socialist country in the world. The ones you are likely speaking of are social democracies where the government, at the encouragement of the people, is made to face up to the inequalities inherent in capitalism (where a small group of people own all the land and have all the money and power, just like the empires of old, for what is capitalism but the newest version of empire?) and try to provide services for the people. And contrary to the garbage people like you tend to sling, they the citizens of this or that social democracy do not do this because they are weak, because they want a "nanny state," but because capitalism concentrates all the money and power in a small group of new age lords and kings. And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier! …

I assume Enoch Root refers, among others, Australia, Canada, New Zealand and west European countries, who mostly have better stats in those areas.

I found a Happy Planet Index. I can not speak for all countries but I have a few doubts about the ranking. I.e. some of the North African or Middle East ones didn’t seem/seemed that happy these days. It could be a clue that plays into happiness. See point 3. Views in the Link.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

If no one were poor, how does capitalism suffer? It doesn't. It goes along just fine. That's more people who can buy goods and services. More opportunities to sell your products. And instead of illegals doing grunt work you'd have American teens and lower 20s working again.

I think capitalism doesn’t work without the poor. There are even big ones that need illegal immigrants. A lot of industries are based on cheap workers. If you pay them enough to not be poor, everything would cost more so most people buy less goods and services.