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Old 02-09-2011
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Yes, labor is a part of it, but I thought it usually started with an idea.
Tracy

Yes, true enough, however, lots of people have ideas but nothing comes of them. Why, because no labor occurred. To implement an idea, some form of labor must occur. Money is stored labor. The person with an idea goes out and finds financing (stored labor) to implement his idea. Let's say it is drilling for oil where he thinks it can be found (his idea). OK, he contracts with an oil drilling company to drill the well. The owner of the drilling rig has a crew (labor) to use equipment made in a factory by labor built by financing (stored labor). It always ends with labor being the basis of enterprise. Capitalism is simply the manipulation of stored labor. Obviously, the person with the idea that turned into an enterprise has a right to the benefits of that enterprise. He also has the responsibility to fairly share the benefits with the workers who made the enterprise possible.
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Old 02-09-2011
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Tracy

Yes, true enough, however, lots of people have ideas but nothing comes of them. Why, because no labor occurred. To implement an idea, some form of labor must occur. Money is stored labor. The person with an idea goes out and finds financing (stored labor) to implement his idea. Let's say it is drilling for oil where he thinks it can be found (his idea). OK, he contracts with an oil drilling company to drill the well. The owner of the drilling rig has a crew (labor) to use equipment made in a factory by labor built by financing (stored labor). It always ends with labor being the basis of enterprise. Capitalism is simply the manipulation of stored labor. Obviously, the person with the idea that turned into an enterprise has a right to the benefits of that enterprise. He also has the responsibility to fairly share the benefits with the workers who made the enterprise possible.
If I had a drilling crew I'd be punching holes in the earth at random since I have no clue where to drill. The guy who knows where to drill has a valuable skill and should be paid well for it. How many people can work on an oil well? Probably quite a lot with a little training. How many people know where to drill? Probable not so many, and with a lot of training. Simple supply and demand. If you try and unbalance the supply and demand equation then you're left with something unsustainable.
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Simple supply and demand. If you try and unbalance the supply and demand equation then you're left with something unsustainable
I am not sure what you mean here.
OK, lets say the oil rig strikes oil. The contractor and the workers get paid for the time they drilled. The guy who got the financing now owns the well and its output. Presumably the value of the oil is far beyond the cost (labor) of creating the well. The guy is now extremely rich. He pays off the financing, buys a yacht (built by labor) and an expensive house (built by labor). Financing the well was a risky gamble, it could have been dry and the people who financed lose their investment (stored labor). Capitalism is taking risks and yes the system rewards capitalists for taking risks.
In Norway, however, things are very different. The state owns the oil rights and does the drilling and sells the oil. The benefit of this goes to the people of Norway. Everybody has excellent health care in a well run corruption free state free of extremely wealthy corporations buying off and corrupting the legislature.
I know that won't work here in this big country but it's nice to think about. Imagine the wealth there would be in this country if we all owned the oil. There would little or no taxes and we would all be happy, right?
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I am not sure what you mean here.
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When she wrote about supply and demand as regards the workers I thought she meant there are fewer people who know how to find oil and more who can drill oil. That because there is less of the one group than the other, the group with fewer members "deserves" to be paid more.
What Enoch said. If you were to buy the services of an oil well crew, and they wanted 50% of the profits, you'd say "no way man. There's plenty of other oil well crews out there that charge a lower flat rate." Because there's a large supply of oil well crews to choose from. If you were to buy the services of a trained professional with a proven track record of finding oil, that's a rare commodity and as such, it's going to cost you.

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Financing the well was a risky gamble, it could have been dry and the people who financed lose their investment (stored labor). Capitalism is taking risks and yes the system rewards capitalists for taking risks.
If it went dry, the oil well workers would still get paid. They do not take on the risk. It's the guy who makes all the investments who stands to loose everything.

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In Norway, however, things are very different. The state owns the oil rights and does the drilling and sells the oil. The benefit of this goes to the people of Norway. Everybody has excellent health care in a well run corruption free state free of extremely wealthy corporations buying off and corrupting the legislature.
I know that won't work here in this big country but it's nice to think about. Imagine the wealth there would be in this country if we all owned the oil. There would little or no taxes and we would all be happy, right?
lol to quote Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School, sounds like fantasy land. Why should there be only one type of government on this planet? There are plenty of socialist countries out there. Fine, let them live that fantasy. In this country we're giving capitalism a shot. Many people come to America to live under that kind of system. I presume that some people who aren't gung ho about capitalism could move to one of the many other socialist countries.
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In this country we're giving capitalism a shot. Many people come to America to live under that kind of system. I presume that some people who aren't gung ho about capitalism could move to one of the many other socialist countries.
Really? Over half of our tax money goes to the Pentagon. This is nothing more than military socialism. Spending on military hardware is a dead end for all that capital. It does not generate real profits, it just keeps the military/industrial complex going. Imagine, if you will that military spending was cut twenty five percent and our taxes were cut a similar amount. that would free up billions of dollars to invest in productive enterprises that could benefit the society.
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If it went dry, the oil well workers would still get paid. They do not take on the risk. It's the guy who makes all the investments who stands to loose everything.
Again, you keep viewing things in terms of money rather than in terms of people. The oil workers will see very little money from the oil and we the people will see none of it because the ruling class takes it all for itself instead of it being used for the betterment of us all. The workers will see very little even though they are the ones who worked to get to the oil. Whereas the investor, who did nothing, gets all the money. The rich get richer because the system is built for their benefit, because the system works on the backs of the working class while the rich go about at their leisure. They use us in order to have a good life while we toil endlessly. Have you noticed people have no time for family anymore? That both parents work in order to provide for their family but it is still not enough?

The last 20 years have been terrible for the working class whereas the rich have been reaping obscene rewards and now they are doing even better after the stimulus. You keep giving precedence to those who truly freeload, that is to say the rich, over those who truly work, that is to say the working class. The people of America may be many things but lazy is not one of them. We the people suffer and we suffer not only at the hands of the rich but those who pander to them like you. What you fail to recognize--but more likely, what you recognize but are comfortable with--is that capitalism is a gigantic pyramid scheme where the base is composed of us and on our backs sit the ruling class siphoning all the money we generate from us. Why should they have all the land and all the money and all the resources? We the people should own our land, not the rich. We the people should own the oil, for example. It is not a fantasy. You on the other hand are an apologist for those who oppress us. Why should any government or private industry be allowed to stand that hogs all the necessities of life on this planet?

There is not a single socialist country in the world. The ones you are likely speaking of are social democracies where the government, at the encouragement of the people, is made to face up to the inequalities inherent in capitalism (where a small group of people own all the land and have all the money and power, just like the empires of old, for what is capitalism but the newest version of empire?) and try to provide services for the people. And contrary to the garbage people like you tend to sling, they the citizens of this or that social democracy do not do this because they are weak, because they want a "nanny state," but because capitalism concentrates all the money and power in a small group of new age lords and kings. And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier! Whereas Americans don't have a clue how to relate to each other as people, no one speaks to one another (ever lived in a suburb like me? everyone in their prisons of wood, no one speaking with their neighbors, no large community dinners, everything tv and internet and the zombie catatonia of it all). Whereas Americans are obese and deeply ignorant of their own history or basic facts about astronomy or evolution (case in point: many in your country are convinced the Founding Fathers were Christian, 20% think the sun revolves around the earth, and there's the endless stream of bullshit from creationists) and god forbid you ever get sick because you'll lose all your possessions to the sharks at insurance companies.

All of this, of course, may have reached apotheosis in the form of this Tea Party phenomenon: they name themselves after a tax revolt that was about taxation WITHOUT representation as opposed to their delusion that it was about high taxes, these people think the Constitution was handed to them by Jesus himself (I've seen the painting and it is not encouraging), these people think Mexican immigrants are the biggest problem facing America (it's not, that title goes to private industry), and that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy (it doesn't, the last 20 odd years shows as much and the money the rich have are ill-gotten gains, bloodmoney, anyway, garnered on the backs of the citizens of the world and war and death, because that is what a capitalist country does--it invades country after country for resources and slaves, the separation of the "free market" and the government is an illusion, because they always get the government to make war on some place or another or to make friendly with the government of some other place in order to set up branches of their company over there).

And people move to the US because you've very effectively sold the lie of the American Dream. It doesn't mean they would approve of your human rights abuses. If I remember correctly the US is like 20th place or lower (if not 30th) in social mobility. The countries of Europe are now higher up on the list. It sounds like your attempt at argumentum ad populum (either they do all agree with the massacres the US commits around the world or they don't but they still gather on your land in great numbers, in either case it does not mean you are correct). And it is rather difficult for people to move to countries that have greater freedom than the US when 1) the rich have taken all their money from them and 2) the propaganda from your media with their vapid incessant cries of "Best freest country in the world!" do not report things as they are.

One last tiny note for randolph: it is not military socialism. It is military welfare or corporate welfare. But they unlike the people do not need it and do not deserve it.

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Old 02-15-2011
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Again, you keep viewing things in terms of money rather than in terms of people. The oil workers will see very little money from the oil and we the people will see none of it because the ruling class takes it all for itself instead of it being used for the betterment of us all. The workers will see very little even though they are the ones who worked to get to the oil. Whereas the investor, who did nothing, gets all the money. The rich get richer because the system is built for their benefit, because the system works on the backs of the working class while the rich go about at their leisure.
Perhaps it is you who keeps viewing things in terms of money. I'd even say obsessed with money.

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They use us in order to have a good life while we toil endlessly. Have you noticed people have no time for family anymore? That both parents work in order to provide for their family but it is still not enough?
In high school, my grades sucked. Yet I seem to be able to provide for my 3 kids and save for their college expenses on my own just fine.

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The last 20 years have been terrible for the working class whereas the rich have been reaping obscene rewards and now they are doing even better after the stimulus.
I seem to remember a time within the last 20 years where college dropouts were getting salaries of $45K or more on their first professional job. Unemployment was around 5%, and stocks were skyrocketing.

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You keep giving precedence to those who truly freeload, that is to say the rich, over those who truly work
Please explain how I am portraying this rich person as a freeloader:
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You can't just blindly work without a direction. You get an idea, then you work on it. Eventually, if your idea is profitable then your work will pay off, and you can afford to hire workers to help with increasing demands. If you do it right, you can continue to profit, and use those profits to continue to grow the company. If the company is successful enough, then yes, you can afford to keep some of those profits yourself. And why not? It was your idea that started the whole thing. It was your sweat that turned it into reality back when you worked much longer hours than your workers do now and for free because it all went into the company.
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We the people suffer and we suffer not only at the hands of the rich but those who pander to them like you.
I'm not sure who these suffering people are, but the democrats want their voters to suffer. If they did not suffer, why would they need all these big government social programs? Who do the democrats actively go out and seek for support? Those that need booze in exchange for registering. Those that need to be bussed to the voting booths. Illegal aliens. People who don't even have a drivers license. They go on and on about the plight of the poor, but very rarely to you see them tell the poor to get their shit together. To quit buying $90 shoes and put that towards improving their lives. To stop this idea that going to college and making something of yourself makes you 'too white'.

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What you fail to recognize--but more likely, what you recognize but are comfortable with--is that capitalism is a gigantic pyramid scheme where the base is composed of us and on our backs sit the ruling class siphoning all the money we generate from us.
If no one were poor, how does capitalism suffer? It doesn't. It goes along just fine. That's more people who can buy goods and services. More opportunities to sell your products. And instead of illegals doing grunt work you'd have American teens and lower 20s working again.

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We the people should own our land, not the rich.
I do own my land.

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There is not a single socialist country in the world.
Then you should probably correct wikipedia on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries

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And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier!
China: Life expectancy is 73 years. 12% of the population is malnourished. Health is improving though with the introduction of western style medical facilities. China still has several emerging health problems though such as respiratory problems as a result of widespread air pollution, HIV/AIDS beginning to approach epidemic proportions, increasing obesity, and close living quarters lead to disease outbreaks like SARS (a pneumonia-like disease). It's estimated that 760,000 people per years die from environmental pollution. China is the world's largest producer of CO2. 90% of China's cities suffer from some degree of water pollution. 500 million people lack access to safe drinking water. 93.3% of the population over age 15 are literate.

Cuba: Health challenges include low pay of doctors (only $15 a month), poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and frequent absence of essential drugs. Life expectancy in Cuba is 78 years. Literacy rate is 97%.

Laos: Life expectancy is at 64 years. Healthy life expectancy was at 54 in 2006. In 2006, two fifths of the population were not using an improved water resource. The total Literacy Rate Is 73%.

Vietnam: Life expectancy is 74. Malnutrition is common in provinces. Tuberculosis claims 57 lives per day. 40-50 new infections per day of HIV. They receive funding from the US to fight AIDS. Literacy rate is 90%. Facing serious crises, Vietnam's education system is under a holistic reform launched by the government.

In comparison, US life expectancy is 78 years, and the literacy rate is 99%. Your assertion that these countries I'm assuming are socialist are healthier and better educated is false. I didn't find a happiness scale, but I think we can assume that health and education plays into that.

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Whereas Americans are obese and deeply ignorant of their own history or basic facts about astronomy or evolution (case in point: many in your country are convinced the Founding Fathers were Christian, 20% think the sun revolves around the earth, and there's the endless stream of bullshit from creationists).... These people think the Constitution was handed to them by Jesus himself.
There is an effort by the left to downplay the role of the Founding Fathers, and an effort by the right to keep fueling creationist BS. That is true. And yes, many on the right try to claim that the Constitution was handed to the founding fathers by Jesus, or God. That is also BS and I wish it would stop.

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and god forbid you ever get sick because you'll lose all your possessions to the sharks at insurance companies.
Evidence?

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All of this, of course, may have reached apotheosis in the form of this Tea Party phenomenon: they name themselves after a tax revolt that was about taxation WITHOUT representation as opposed to their delusion that it was about high taxes
Under the 1st two years of the Obama regime the American people were not represented. There were numerous protests about the national health care system where the democrats were trying to ram it down our throats despite the fact that the majority of Americans did not want it. There was also the problem of the numerous stimulus packages that Americans did not support and subsidizing mortgages of those who defaulted on their loans. The American people were NOT being represented. Here is the genesis of the modern Tea Party.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEDlod2V80U


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these people think Mexican immigrants are the biggest problem facing America
It ranks pretty high. Beyond the obvious, that they are coming into the country illegally (something any other country would prosecute sternly) and taking jobs away from those poor suffering Americans you speak of, and that they don't pay taxes, yet reap the benefits of those taxes, there is an epidemic of well armed gangs in Mexico right along our borders. I have a Mexican friend. She went back to Mexico for the first time in 3 years to visit family. She said she was told to stay indoors at night because of the gangs, which was unusual before, and has also seen mid-easterners hanging out with these gangs. It's very easy for Al Qaeda operatives to come into the US through the Mexican border.

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And people move to the US because you've very effectively sold the lie of the American Dream. It doesn't mean they would approve of your human rights abuses.
lol whatever. What is the ideal country on this planet, and why aren't you there? Don't use the excuse that it costs too much. History is full of examples of very poor people leaving everything behind to come to America. If there is a will, there is a way. If things are that bad here, a reporter reassuring people that all is well is not going to change what they can see for themselves.
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Old 02-15-2011
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Enoch vs Tracy
A very impressive point/counterpoint discussion. Keep at it you guys but don't forget this thread is about Ronny.
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Old 02-09-2011
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The rich in all the ages of the earth that have passed and all the ages to come have never earned their money. How is it someone "earns" millions and billions of dollars? They don't. The workers did that. Many man hours were put to work in order to generate that much money. But do the workers see a fair share of this? No. It all goes into the pockets of the people at the top. People deserve to be recompensed for their efforts but upper management never works like their workers do. People deserve to be recompensed for their efforts but not in such a way that others are left with nothing. The rich take the profits generated by workers. This has gone into overdrive the last 20 to 30 years. Wages for the working people of America have stagnated even though their productivity has gone up and all that profit is taken from them by the people at the top.

Furthermore, as to your quip about the rich providing jobs to the people: do you not see what is wrong there? Why should we be at the mercy of the rich? Why should we be one step away from having to lick their boots for a job? Why should we be forced to live in a social structure that demands of us to be servile? Why is it they "deserve" (they don't) to have so much more than everybody else, to have more than they need to live?

The rich take money from us. They feed on us like so many parasites. They are the ones with a sense of entitlement. They think they are entitled to exploit us. They think they deserve all that money, the consequences on the people be damned! The rich take our dignity from us because they make us work in order to enrich them further and they only deign to pay us, they do not treat us fairly. Any group of people that views democracy, freedom, worker's rights, unions and so on and so forth as hindrances to profit, who view we the people as tools or numbers (as you just so disgustingly put it: abstracting workers into supply and demand) rather than individuals is a group to be wary of and they ought justly be regarded as immoral.
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If I had a drilling crew I'd be punching holes in the earth at random since I have no clue where to drill. The guy who knows where to drill has a valuable skill and should be paid well for it. How many people can work on an oil well? Probably quite a lot with a little training. How many people know where to drill? Probable not so many, and with a lot of training. Simple supply and demand. If you try and unbalance the supply and demand equation then you're left with something unsustainable.
Knowing where to drill has nothing to do with supply and demand. Perhaps a little Economics 101 is in order. Here's a simple explanation:

http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/econ1...ly&demand.html
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Old 02-09-2011
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When she wrote about supply and demand as regards the workers I thought she meant there are fewer people who know how to find oil and more who can drill oil. That because there is less of the one group than the other, the group with fewer members "deserves" to be paid more.
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In the book I am reading " The Middle East" slavery was routine in those days. If you needed help you raided the neighbors for women and workers. Slaves were a good deal no wages, just enough food and water to keep them working. Sounds like the beginning of capitalism.
A lot of our current products are being produced by workers close to slavery. In Asia they get just enough pay to stay alive and get to work. Things are changing in China, however, the workers are getting fedup and demanding a decent wage. So what do the capitalists do? They move production somewhere else where they can find desperately poor that are willing to work for slave wages.
Think about that when shopping at Wallmart.
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Old 02-09-2011
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Hey, all conservatives, you can sign up for conservative Email for only $39.95. What a deal!


In the world of email, a short list of companies dominate--Google, AOL, Yahoo, Microsoft--but there's a new player in the game that's ready to tear down their firewalls: Ronald Reagan. Just as Reagan took on Walter Mondale and Jimmy Carter, the conservative icon's family isn't about to bow down to any lily-livered liberals, be them presidential candidates or billion-dollar tech giants.
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Last year, in his father's memory, Reagan's son Michael launched an email service to end the monopoly of left-wing Internet companies. His charge was simple: "Every time you use your e-mail from companies like Google, AOL, Yahoo, Hotmail, Apple and others, you are helping liberals," Reagan wrote at the time. "These companies are, and will continue, to be huge supporters financially and with technology of those that are hurting our country." For only a small $39.95 annual fee, conservatives around the country could purchase an @Reagan.com email address, and rest easy knowing their money was going only toward conservative causes.

Liberal companies provide it free.

Conservatives charge, figures.
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Old 02-09-2011
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Liberal companies provide it free.

Conservatives charge, figures.
Could we establish right here and now that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans truly care about the people? That they both pander to the rich? It is true that the Republicans exploit the people gleefully and openly and then turn around and sell it all as freedom to the people (many of whom buy it for some reason), but both parties do it. And both are quite content to continually bombard the world and establish neo-colonies. I know this because my homeland is a colony of the United States of America.
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
If I had a drilling crew I'd be punching holes in the earth at random since I have no clue where to drill. The guy who knows where to drill has a valuable skill and should be paid well for it. How many people can work on an oil well? Probably quite a lot with a little training. How many people know where to drill? Probable not so many, and with a lot of training. Simple supply and demand. If you try and unbalance the supply and demand equation then you're left with something unsustainable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smc View Post
Knowing where to drill has nothing to do with supply and demand. Perhaps a little Economics 101 is in order. Here's a simple explanation:

http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/econ1...ly&demand.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
When she wrote about supply and demand as regards the workers I thought she meant there are fewer people who know how to find oil and more who can drill oil. That because there is less of the one group than the other, the group with fewer members "deserves" to be paid more.
I am willing to entertain Enoch Root's explanation for Tracy Coxx's initial post regarding "supply and demand." If that is what was meant, then the problem is the use of the economics term "supply and demand" rather than "labor market supply and demand" or "labor supply and demand," which are specific concepts in economics that do not necessarily follow the standard supply and demand equations typically taught in economics courses.
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