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Yes, true enough, however, lots of people have ideas but nothing comes of them. Why, because no labor occurred. To implement an idea, some form of labor must occur. Money is stored labor. The person with an idea goes out and finds financing (stored labor) to implement his idea. Let's say it is drilling for oil where he thinks it can be found (his idea). OK, he contracts with an oil drilling company to drill the well. The owner of the drilling rig has a crew (labor) to use equipment made in a factory by labor built by financing (stored labor). It always ends with labor being the basis of enterprise. Capitalism is simply the manipulation of stored labor. Obviously, the person with the idea that turned into an enterprise has a right to the benefits of that enterprise. He also has the responsibility to fairly share the benefits with the workers who made the enterprise possible.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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Tracy
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OK, lets say the oil rig strikes oil. The contractor and the workers get paid for the time they drilled. The guy who got the financing now owns the well and its output. Presumably the value of the oil is far beyond the cost (labor) of creating the well. The guy is now extremely rich. He pays off the financing, buys a yacht (built by labor) and an expensive house (built by labor). Financing the well was a risky gamble, it could have been dry and the people who financed lose their investment (stored labor). Capitalism is taking risks and yes the system rewards capitalists for taking risks. In Norway, however, things are very different. The state owns the oil rights and does the drilling and sells the oil. The benefit of this goes to the people of Norway. Everybody has excellent health care in a well run corruption free state free of extremely wealthy corporations buying off and corrupting the legislature. I know that won't work here in this big country but it's nice to think about. Imagine the wealth there would be in this country if we all owned the oil. There would little or no taxes and we would all be happy, right? ![]()
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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Tracy
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
#6
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The last 20 years have been terrible for the working class whereas the rich have been reaping obscene rewards and now they are doing even better after the stimulus. You keep giving precedence to those who truly freeload, that is to say the rich, over those who truly work, that is to say the working class. The people of America may be many things but lazy is not one of them. We the people suffer and we suffer not only at the hands of the rich but those who pander to them like you. What you fail to recognize--but more likely, what you recognize but are comfortable with--is that capitalism is a gigantic pyramid scheme where the base is composed of us and on our backs sit the ruling class siphoning all the money we generate from us. Why should they have all the land and all the money and all the resources? We the people should own our land, not the rich. We the people should own the oil, for example. It is not a fantasy. You on the other hand are an apologist for those who oppress us. Why should any government or private industry be allowed to stand that hogs all the necessities of life on this planet? There is not a single socialist country in the world. The ones you are likely speaking of are social democracies where the government, at the encouragement of the people, is made to face up to the inequalities inherent in capitalism (where a small group of people own all the land and have all the money and power, just like the empires of old, for what is capitalism but the newest version of empire?) and try to provide services for the people. And contrary to the garbage people like you tend to sling, they the citizens of this or that social democracy do not do this because they are weak, because they want a "nanny state," but because capitalism concentrates all the money and power in a small group of new age lords and kings. And look at the results!: they are healthier, better educated than Americans, and happier! Whereas Americans don't have a clue how to relate to each other as people, no one speaks to one another (ever lived in a suburb like me? everyone in their prisons of wood, no one speaking with their neighbors, no large community dinners, everything tv and internet and the zombie catatonia of it all). Whereas Americans are obese and deeply ignorant of their own history or basic facts about astronomy or evolution (case in point: many in your country are convinced the Founding Fathers were Christian, 20% think the sun revolves around the earth, and there's the endless stream of bullshit from creationists) and god forbid you ever get sick because you'll lose all your possessions to the sharks at insurance companies. All of this, of course, may have reached apotheosis in the form of this Tea Party phenomenon: they name themselves after a tax revolt that was about taxation WITHOUT representation as opposed to their delusion that it was about high taxes, these people think the Constitution was handed to them by Jesus himself (I've seen the painting and it is not encouraging), these people think Mexican immigrants are the biggest problem facing America (it's not, that title goes to private industry), and that tax cuts for the rich stimulate the economy (it doesn't, the last 20 odd years shows as much and the money the rich have are ill-gotten gains, bloodmoney, anyway, garnered on the backs of the citizens of the world and war and death, because that is what a capitalist country does--it invades country after country for resources and slaves, the separation of the "free market" and the government is an illusion, because they always get the government to make war on some place or another or to make friendly with the government of some other place in order to set up branches of their company over there). And people move to the US because you've very effectively sold the lie of the American Dream. It doesn't mean they would approve of your human rights abuses. If I remember correctly the US is like 20th place or lower (if not 30th) in social mobility. The countries of Europe are now higher up on the list. It sounds like your attempt at argumentum ad populum (either they do all agree with the massacres the US commits around the world or they don't but they still gather on your land in great numbers, in either case it does not mean you are correct). And it is rather difficult for people to move to countries that have greater freedom than the US when 1) the rich have taken all their money from them and 2) the propaganda from your media with their vapid incessant cries of "Best freest country in the world!" do not report things as they are. One last tiny note for randolph: it is not military socialism. It is military welfare or corporate welfare. But they unlike the people do not need it and do not deserve it. Last edited by Enoch Root; 02-10-2011 at 10:12 AM. |
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I do own my land. Then you should probably correct wikipedia on that: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialist_countries Quote:
Cuba: Health challenges include low pay of doctors (only $15 a month), poor facilities, poor provision of equipment, and frequent absence of essential drugs. Life expectancy in Cuba is 78 years. Literacy rate is 97%. Laos: Life expectancy is at 64 years. Healthy life expectancy was at 54 in 2006. In 2006, two fifths of the population were not using an improved water resource. The total Literacy Rate Is 73%. Vietnam: Life expectancy is 74. Malnutrition is common in provinces. Tuberculosis claims 57 lives per day. 40-50 new infections per day of HIV. They receive funding from the US to fight AIDS. Literacy rate is 90%. Facing serious crises, Vietnam's education system is under a holistic reform launched by the government. In comparison, US life expectancy is 78 years, and the literacy rate is 99%. Your assertion that these countries I'm assuming are socialist are healthier and better educated is false. I didn't find a happiness scale, but I think we can assume that health and education plays into that. Quote:
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lol whatever. What is the ideal country on this planet, and why aren't you there? Don't use the excuse that it costs too much. History is full of examples of very poor people leaving everything behind to come to America. If there is a will, there is a way. If things are that bad here, a reporter reassuring people that all is well is not going to change what they can see for themselves.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#8
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Enoch vs Tracy
A very impressive point/counterpoint discussion. Keep at it you guys but don't forget this thread is about Ronny. ![]()
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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The rich in all the ages of the earth that have passed and all the ages to come have never earned their money. How is it someone "earns" millions and billions of dollars? They don't. The workers did that. Many man hours were put to work in order to generate that much money. But do the workers see a fair share of this? No. It all goes into the pockets of the people at the top. People deserve to be recompensed for their efforts but upper management never works like their workers do. People deserve to be recompensed for their efforts but not in such a way that others are left with nothing. The rich take the profits generated by workers. This has gone into overdrive the last 20 to 30 years. Wages for the working people of America have stagnated even though their productivity has gone up and all that profit is taken from them by the people at the top.
Furthermore, as to your quip about the rich providing jobs to the people: do you not see what is wrong there? Why should we be at the mercy of the rich? Why should we be one step away from having to lick their boots for a job? Why should we be forced to live in a social structure that demands of us to be servile? Why is it they "deserve" (they don't) to have so much more than everybody else, to have more than they need to live? The rich take money from us. They feed on us like so many parasites. They are the ones with a sense of entitlement. They think they are entitled to exploit us. They think they deserve all that money, the consequences on the people be damned! The rich take our dignity from us because they make us work in order to enrich them further and they only deign to pay us, they do not treat us fairly. Any group of people that views democracy, freedom, worker's rights, unions and so on and so forth as hindrances to profit, who view we the people as tools or numbers (as you just so disgustingly put it: abstracting workers into supply and demand) rather than individuals is a group to be wary of and they ought justly be regarded as immoral. |
#10
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http://courses.cit.cornell.edu/econ1...ly&demand.html |
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When she wrote about supply and demand as regards the workers I thought she meant there are fewer people who know how to find oil and more who can drill oil. That because there is less of the one group than the other, the group with fewer members "deserves" to be paid more.
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#12
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In the book I am reading " The Middle East" slavery was routine in those days. If you needed help you raided the neighbors for women and workers. Slaves were a good deal no wages, just enough food and water to keep them working. Sounds like the beginning of capitalism.
A lot of our current products are being produced by workers close to slavery. In Asia they get just enough pay to stay alive and get to work. Things are changing in China, however, the workers are getting fedup and demanding a decent wage. So what do the capitalists do? They move production somewhere else where they can find desperately poor that are willing to work for slave wages. Think about that when shopping at Wallmart.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
#13
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Hey, all conservatives, you can sign up for conservative Email for only $39.95. What a deal!
In the world of email, a short list of companies dominate--Google, AOL, Yahoo, Microsoft--but there's a new player in the game that's ready to tear down their firewalls: Ronald Reagan. Just as Reagan took on Walter Mondale and Jimmy Carter, the conservative icon's family isn't about to bow down to any lily-livered liberals, be them presidential candidates or billion-dollar tech giants. Quote:
Liberal companies provide it free. ![]() Conservatives charge, figures. ![]()
__________________
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
#14
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Could we establish right here and now that neither the Democrats nor the Republicans truly care about the people? That they both pander to the rich? It is true that the Republicans exploit the people gleefully and openly and then turn around and sell it all as freedom to the people (many of whom buy it for some reason), but both parties do it. And both are quite content to continually bombard the world and establish neo-colonies. I know this because my homeland is a colony of the United States of America.
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