Baseball

[shadows]

Originally Posted by smc

This is the earliest in the season I can ever remember anyone mentioning the "wild card standings."

I have to have dreams, right?

Besides, the way Tampa Bay is playing right now, there is no point in hoping for a AL East victory for the Jays.

Toronto beat Seattle 3-2 and are only 1 game behind the dreaded Yankees, who lost 10-6 to the Rays.

Boston beat Minnesota 3-2.

[transjen]

Time to do the happy dance as the 20th perfect game in MLB history was pitched tonight by the Phillies way to go Roy

Philliefan Jen

[dauls]

Originally Posted by transjen

Time to do the happy dance as the 20th perfect game in MLB history was pitched tonight by the Phillies way to go Roy

Philliefan Jen

Jen, I have to agree. A perfect game, what an amazing performance by the Doc, especially after his nightmare against Boston last Sunday.

[shadows]

Originally Posted by transjen

Time to do the happy dance as the 20th perfect game in MLB history was pitched tonight by the Phillies way to go Roy

Philliefan Jen

I am truly happy for Roy. He was always classy as a Blue Jay, and he was classy in his departure to Philadelphia. It could not have happened to a nicer guy.

[smc]

Congratulations to Doc. Anyone who pitches a perfect game deserves kudos.

It's feast or famine for the Phillies these days. They can't score a run for more than 20 straight innings, and the next thing you know they have a perfect game.

[oldawg]

All the time here & I've yet to post in this thread...(honestly, when I'm here, I've got other things on my mind!!!), so I thought I'd wave my flag here for a minute...LETS GO METS!!! LETS GO METS!!! LETS GO METS!!!HAHAHA, I love baseball & I love my Mets...In my opinion (that's why I'm posting) BY FAR the greatest sport in the world, not even close (sorry soccer fans, oops, I mean futbol!). In reality I have nothing against soccer, so please don't give me shit here, I have the utmost respect for all sport, but I thank God that I happened to be born in a place where I grew up with the greatest sport ever invented...BASEBALL!!!
I can see that I've already got my work cut out for me here, what with the Phils & Sox & Braves fans...& I'm sure theres a bunch of Yankmees (couldn't help myself) fans ready to tell me how bad my team sucks, but thats alright, its all good.
I'm an extremely loyal Mets fan, been one all my life...Got one ring in '86 & just missed one in 2000 (just talkin what I've seen myself, of course we cant forget '69 & '73!)
Actually, my Metsies have made it to more World Series (4) than any other expansion team. (Winning 2 of course, & they came into the league at a time when baseball didn't just hand big-league players to expansion teams!)
Right now my team is not nearly as bad as everyone might say...surely schizophrenic, but they can actually play a bit.

Heres a few opinions in case anyone wants to jump in & kill me here:

1) METS RULE!!!
2) The DH has no place in baseball. It has completely ruined the American League. Baseball is 9 players at a time. That is inherent in the beauty of the game. Adding the DH has turned the AL into some kind of schoolyard joke. I think the fans of the DH probably only support it because their teams use it, so by default they like their team, they like the players on their team, they like the big bopper playing DH on their team, they like the DH rule. IF THE NATIONAL LEAGUE EVER ADOPTS THE DH RULE I WILL NEVER WATCH BASEBALL AGAIN. Seriously. & I love this game. That's what I mean by saying it actually ruins the game.
3) Interleague play sucks. Although I have to admit its kind of fun to play the Yanks, or even just to see a few different teams now & then, Interleague play chips away at the integrity of the pennant race. Each division needs a balanced schedule (by balanced I mean heavy on Division games, followed by heavy on League games), so each league can have a true champion, & those two teams can play in the World Series for it all.
4) Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. Of course he should. He's the best hitter to ever play the game, right? It doesn't matter if he's an asshole, he was the best.
5) So should Shoeless Joe Jackson. I never saw him obviously, but this is the usual argument given about Rose. Jackson =.356 lifetime avg. C'mon already.
6) So far, I've got no problem with the use of replay. I'd prefer not to have it, but when modern umpires suck sooooooobad, you've got to do something to get the calls correct. As long as they keep its use minimal, im ok for now.
7) The Wild Card sucks. I know, the Mets wouldn't have gotten to the World Series in 2000 without it, or even to the playoffs in '99, but I still feel the postseason is no place for a 2nd place team. Just look to basketball to see how this idea run amok can ruin a sport's regular season.
8) Gary Carter should be in the Hall of Fame AS A MET. 'nough said.
9) I know it's reeeeaaal early, but Ike Davis looks like the real deal. Let's hope so!

Well, I've said my peace. May the best team win, & Lemme have it~
oldawg

[smc]

Originally Posted by oldawg

7) The Wild Card sucks. I know, the Mets wouldn't have gotten to the World Series in 2000 without it, or even to the playoffs in '99, but I still feel the postseason is no place for a 2nd place team. Just look to basketball to see how this idea run amok can ruin a sport's regular season.

oldawg's post has a lot to discuss, but for now I will take up only one point: the one regarding the Wild Card.

I agree, but I think that anyone who slams the Wild Card concept in baseball has an obligation to propose an alternative. After all, there are three divisions in each league. Championships organized according to the "playoff" model must, by their very nature, have an even number of teams involved, and if there is not an even number "automatically" (e.g., by having four divisions), there must be some complex mathematical formula for determining who makes the playoffs. So, oldawg, how would you fix this problem? Go back to one big AL and NL? Consolidate into two divisions per league? Expand to four?

One thing that has been discussed in the past by baseball writers is to have the two teams that win divisions but with the "worst" records play in the first round, and then the winner would play the division winner with the best record (who would be given a "by" in Round 1). Do you think that's a good idea?

Again, I agree that the Wild Card sucks. But what is the alternative?

[oldawg]

Ha, Ha, Ha...SMC youre a son-of-a-gun for sure...the wild card issue is the one where i don't actually have an answer, so of course thats what you call me out on!!!

Well first of all, MLB needs to rectify the problem of the imbalanced leagues...The NL has 16 teams & the AL has 14. What's up with that? Somehow the NL Central needs to lose a team & the AL West needs to add one. Problem is I don't think any of those NL Central teams will voluntarily go to the AL at all, let alone to the Western Division. Hows any of these ideas:

1) Move Houston to the AL West
2) Move Houston to the NL West; Arizona or Colorado to AL West
3) Move Milwaukee back to the AL Central; Kansas City to AL West

The expansion teams(Arizona & Colorado) have no right to claim League or Division loyalty. Kansas City could use a change. Milwaukee won't go back to the AL.

Theres not enough teams for four divisions in each league, & I would hate to see a NHL-type of point system determining playoff seedings. Also, theres of course not enough pitching talent to expand the league to 32 teams, so for now i think we're stuck with 3 division winners & the wild card.

I think at this point we're way beyond the 2 division leagues. After having so many races for all these years, I don't think anyone would want to go back to that (Myself included...the Mets would be out of it by June most years).

Actually, upon rereading your point regarding the round 1 bye, it is sounding better & better. But they need to even out the leagues of course...

[shadows]

Originally Posted by oldawg

1) METS RULE!!!

I think I'll replace 'Mets' with 'Blue Jays.

2) The DH has no place in baseball. It has completely ruined the American League. Baseball is 9 players at a time. That is inherent in the beauty of the game. Adding the DH has turned the AL into some kind of schoolyard joke. I think the fans of the DH probably only support it because their teams use it, so by default they like their team, they like the players on their team, they like the big bopper playing DH on their team, they like the DH rule. IF THE NATIONAL LEAGUE EVER ADOPTS THE DH RULE I WILL NEVER WATCH BASEBALL AGAIN. Seriously. & I love this game. That's what I mean by saying it actually ruins the game.

Sorry, but I'll have to disagree with you here. Besides a very few pitchers, one will either see the pitcher hit a sacrifice bunt or strikeout(or other method of getting out) and I would rather see another batter that actually has more of a chance of getting a hit(or course, the way some of the supposedly "powerful" DHs are hitting this year, I guess pitchers wouldn't be much of a difference.) than almost an "automatic out".

I love the game as well, but I would not stop watching the games if the DH was taken away from the American League. I'm not bashing you for your opinion oldawg, honest, I just think that a fan shouldn't leave because of a rule change(unless it was more severe than a positional change).

3) Interleague play sucks. Although I have to admit its kind of fun to play the Yanks, or even just to see a few different teams now & then, Interleague play chips away at the integrity of the pennant race. Each division needs a balanced schedule (by balanced I mean heavy on Division games, followed by heavy on League games), so each league can have a true champion, & those two teams can play in the World Series for it all.

I agree with you here. It was neat the first season or two, but now it is just a waste of time. It doesn't help much with the standings(less games played against divisional/wild card rivals). I would not be sad if it was taken away. I will say that I am a little pissed that we do not get to see Doc Halladay back in Toronto because they are sooo worried about the protestors at the G20 Conference that they moved the games to Philadelphia. Nice.

4) Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. Of course he should. He's the best hitter to ever play the game, right? It doesn't matter if he's an asshole, he was the best.

Again, I agree. He always bet for his team to win, never to lose. If he had bet for his team to lose, then I would say he doesn't desever to be there(throwing games, for example), but since it was always to win? His stats say he deserves to be there. If Roiders can make it in, why shouldn't he?

5) So should Shoeless Joe Jackson. I never saw him obviously, but this is the usual argument given about Rose. Jackson =.356 lifetime avg. C'mon already.

I don't know if he'll ever be allowed in. His stats say he deserves to be, but throwing games is pretty much the worst thing you can do in professional sports, and for that reason I find it unlikely that they will ever vote him in(or by any other mode of letting him in).

6) So far, I've got no problem with the use of replay. I'd prefer not to have it, but when modern umpires suck sooooooobad, you've got to do something to get the calls correct. As long as they keep its use minimal, im ok for now.

I agree. The Umpires are fallible and have already shown that they can make mistakes. For something that can change the game(home run vs double, for example), it could make a difference. As long as it isn't overused, I don't mind it.

7) The Wild Card sucks. I know, the Mets wouldn't have gotten to the World Series in 2000 without it, or even to the playoffs in '99, but I still feel the postseason is no place for a 2nd place team. Just look to basketball to see how this idea run amok can ruin a sport's regular season.

I strongly disagree. Being stuck in a division with the Yankees and Red Sox(sorry smc), the Jays are always behind the 8-ball. I feel they should either expand the playoffs somehow or change up the Divisions. Either that, or create a TRUE Salary Cap rather than the current joke that makes the Yankees laugh as they sign Free Agent after Free Agent.(can you tell I can't stand the Yankees?)

8) Gary Carter should be in the Hall of Fame AS A MET. 'nough said.

Expo?

9) I know it's reeeeaaal early, but Ike Davis looks like the real deal. Let's hope so!

I don't follow the Mets, but I take it he's a Rookie?

Well, I've said my peace. May the best team win, & Lemme have it~
oldawg

Welcome to the thread, old dawg. Nice to see another baseball fan here. I'll reply to your above points using the blue font.

[oldawg]

Originally Posted by shadows

Welcome to the thread, old dawg. Nice to see another baseball fan here. I'll reply to your above points using the blue font.

Thanks for the welcome!!!

[oldawg]

Shadows, I wanted to respond to a few of your comments to me earlier:

Originally Posted by shadows

I love the game as well, but I would not stop watching the games if the DH was taken away from the American League. I'm not bashing you for your opinion oldawg, honest, I just think that a fan shouldn't leave because of a rule change(unless it was more severe than a positional change).

In essence I agree, but this actually highlights my feelings about the DH. For me, the enjoyment of the game stems from the few original basic rules. The conundrum a manager must deal with every single inning regarding whether or not to remove the pitcher is at the heart of the game. When a pitcher has shut a team down for 7 or 8 innings but you have a chance to score a run by pinch hitting for him, do you take a chance & pinch hit, or decide you're better off with him still in the game, possibly go without that run, & send the pitcher back out there? I love this shit.
In reality, I'm sure I would at least attempt to watch my team with a DH, but earlier I was stating what I'm sure the end result would be, I get very bored with American League-style baseball.

Originally Posted by shadows

I will say that I am a little pissed that we do not get to see Doc Halladay back in Toronto because they are sooo worried about the protestors at the G20 Conference that they moved the games to Philadelphia. Nice.

Agreed...What Bullshit...as if the Phillies, their two NL Pennants, one WS Ring & their binoculars need any more help!!!

Originally Posted by shadows

or create a TRUE Salary Cap rather than the current joke that makes the Yankees laugh as they sign Free Agent after Free Agent.(can you tell I can't stand the Yankees?)

This brings me to something I forgot to post in my introductory post...It is my strong belief that MLB needs to have a salary cap. But this cuts both ways. Baseball needs to have both a minimum & maximum salary amount. This is the only way to fix the league. If they set the limits at, say, $80 million minimum salary per year, with a maximum of perhaps $200 million?
This is a large enough variance, but at least sets some limits so possibly the Pirates, Royals, & Marlins would be 1) forced to comply, & 2) possibly in contention again?

Originally Posted by shadows

I don't follow the Mets, but I take it he's a Rookie?

Yes, Ike Davis is a rookie...he was called up on April 19 against the Cubs...Hes shown more poise, class & talent in one month than many spoiled ball players do in a career. I don't pretend to have any talent whatsoever when it comes to scouting, but Ive seen alot of ball (no pun intended!) in my day, & this kid looks for real...as a much-disappointed Mets fan, I'm really hoping hes the real deal. Already hes given this team a shot in the arm, hes now hitting cleanup, & looks well above average defensively.

As a point of interest, he & his father, Ron Davis, are the 197th father-son combination to play in the big leagues...Ron played in the majors for 11 seasons, for the Yankees, Twins, Cubs, Dodgers & Giants...He was the setup man for Goose Gossage, earned 130 saves, holds the NY Yankee record for consecutive strikeouts in a game (8), is tied for the record of most blown saves in a season (14 in 1984), and was an AL All-Star in 1981.

[smc]

With a few extra free moments this morning, I want to respond to the other parts of oldawg's post that I did not address earlier (I already wrote about the DH). I'm using red to make it easy to differentiate between oldawg's words and mine.

Originally Posted by oldawg

3) Interleague play sucks. Although I have to admit its kind of fun to play the Yanks, or even just to see a few different teams now & then, Interleague play chips away at the integrity of the pennant race. Each division needs a balanced schedule (by balanced I mean heavy on Division games, followed by heavy on League games), so each league can have a true champion, & those two teams can play in the World Series for it all.

There is a certain element of enjoyment and anticipation that comes with Interleague Play, particularly seeing teams that one doesn't typically see. All in all, though, I agree with oldawg, especially that Interleague Play "chips away at the integrity of the pennant race. There is something inherently wrong with having to alter the way you have constructed your team (see the DH discussion, and this applies no matter what one's opinion of the DH might be) just to compete a few times against a team that is fundamentally different in construction, which is necessitated by the DH rule.

Originally Posted by oldawg

4) Pete Rose should be in the Hall of Fame. Of course he should. He's the best hitter to ever play the game, right? It doesn't matter if he's an asshole, he was the best.

I agree, and if being an asshole was something that could keep you out of the Hall, I don't think Ty Cobb would have made it. Of course, being thin-skinned assholes does partially explain the press taking so long to put Jim Rice in the Hall of Fame.

Originally Posted by oldawg

5) So should Shoeless Joe Jackson. I never saw him obviously, but this is the usual argument given about Rose. Jackson =.356 lifetime avg. C'mon already.

That Jackson should be in the Hall goes without saying.

Originally Posted by oldawg

6) So far, I've got no problem with the use of replay.

I agree, so far. What Major League Baseball really needs to do is figure out a way to fix the wildly inconsistent strike zone. I have no answer for that short of automating the calling of balls and strikes, which would be horrific! (Look to the Japanese to invent a robot umpire some time soon, though.)

Finally, let me add my voice to the welcomes to oldawg to this thread.

[smc]

I thought baseball lovers here might be interested to read an excellent article on the Designated Hitter that appeared in yesterday's Boston Globe. It touches on virtually every aspect of the debate, and I will let it speak for itself, reserving comment except to say that the Boston Globe has some of the absolute best baseball writing anywhere, consistently, and even throughout the entire dead of winter. It's no accident that Peter Gammons comes from the Globe. Nick Cafardo, the author of this piece, writes a weekly full-page "Baseball Notes" article in each Sunday's edition, and the Red Sox are not the focus of the page. I encourage baseball lovers to look up the paper on Sunday's on the web.

Here's the article, reprinted in its entirety, and set off in another color to make a clear distinction between it and my comment above.

BASEBALL NOTE
DH topic continues to get batted around

By Nick Cafardo | May 30, 2010

DH or no DH? It has been the question for some 37 years.

?I see it remaining status quo for the foreseeable future,?? said commissioner Bud Selig from his Milwaukee office. ?It would take a cataclysmic event for us to change it. Now, if we started looking at possibly realignment, which we haven?t discussed seriously to this point, there would be discussion. But I would anticipate the status quo long after I?m gone from this office.??

The issue now is the relevancy of the position. For years, it was a haven for older players like Hall of Famers Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, Carl Yastrzemski, and George Brett, who were able to tack on numbers to their totals.

Yet there seems to be diminishing returns for DHs. Teams are beginning to use the spot as a place to rest position players now and again. The Red Sox still employ David Ortiz as a full-time DH, but this is likely his last season in Boston. After that, depending on what happens with Victor Martinez in free agency, the position will likely be occupied by multiple players.

Vladimir Guerrero is giving the DH spot a boost with his huge season in Texas, and last year?s World Series MVP was a DH (Hideki Matsui). But for the most part, you wonder whether the spot is running out of oomph and usefulness.

The debates continue.

Fans defend their league. The National League can claim that its brand of baseball is the way the game should be played. The DH also can turn players into one-dimensional pieces. Toronto?s Adam Lind and Minnesota?s Jason Kubel are two DHs who should be playing defensive positions.

Others support the DH.

?I love the DH,?? said longtime baseball man Bill Lajoie, now a senior adviser with the Pirates. ?I love offense. I love runners on base as opposed to the pitcher hitting and having a wasted out.

?I wish the National League had the DH because it really reduces your roster because you have to make more pitching changes and your bench is restricted because you have to save your backup catcher, and your utility infielder is usually someone who can?t hit, so your roster is suddenly, for practical purposes, 22 or 23.??

There have been suggestions to give the DH a proper resting place. Use it for spring training, some say, so hitters can get their at-bats, or for the All-Star Game where fans come mostly to see offense (it will be used in All-Star Games starting this year).

Removing the DH could help the pace of games by eliminating older, base-clogging players who take a lot of pitches and prolong at-bats.

Of the owners who voted to adopt the DH, Selig is the only one remaining in the game. Back in 1973, attendance in the American League was sagging and the league needed something to create excitement. Selig, then the owner of the Brewers (who were then in the AL), remembers vividly former Red Sox general manager Dick O?Connell telling him, ?We?ve got to get the DH!??

?There are very few players who like to DH,?? said Jim Rice, who made 2,256 plate appearances (of a total 9,058) from the DH spot. ?If it went back to no DH, I don?t think anyone would be too unhappy about it. Players like to play in the field. When you can?t do it anymore, you retire. So many players just hang on and DH for a year or two.??

According to Selig, in all of his years as commissioner ? and even prior to that ? the DH issue has been split right down league lines. The American League loves it, the National League doesn?t.

?I like the dialogue on it,?? said Selig. ?It?s good for the sport. I?m always trying to find ways to make the sport better, and enjoy the conversation and debate that goes with it. But I have heard no compelling reason to do away with it.??

The New York Times did a story before the World Series last year examining the potential advantage AL teams had in using their regular DHs as opposed to the NL teams having to use one of their extra players to DH. In 86 games over 27 World Series, the NL DHs had a .254 average with 10 homers and 34 RBIs, while the AL DHs had a .237 average with 9 homers and 40 RBIs. The AL won 15 of the 27 Series.

Then Matsui stole the show.

Selig has a committee to study all baseball matters, and while the DH comes up once in a while, there will likely be no outrage about it until realignment jumbles the leagues together.

The Players Association endorses more jobs for the union, though the days of the $12 million DH like Ortiz are likely over. It would never support any measure to eliminate the DH in its entirety.

DH or no DH depends on your viewpoint and self-interest. Houston manager Brad Mills, whose offense has been pathetic, quipped, ?You might be asking the wrong guy. I came from the AL East, with powerful lineups, and would I like to see a DH who can hit on our team right now? I like the game without the DH, but when you need hitting, it looks awfully good.??