Languages

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

I read Dutch, which is in the West Germanic sub-group of Germanic languages, and thus most closely related to German and English. I find Dutch difficult to speak because of the odd, rounded vowel sounds; whenever I try, I sound really off. I also read Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish with varying degrees of proficiency, and can speak Swedish after I'm in Sweden for a few days (or my Stockholm friends visit). These are Germanic languages in the sub-group of North Germanic languages, also known as Nordic languages.

I would say from my own experience that Danish is the easiest of the North Germanic languages, because Danish strikes me as the closest to German of these particular languages, both grammatically and syntactically. Of the North Germanic languages, Danish and Swedish share a similar sub-sub-group generally called East Scandinavian. Norwegian, Icelandic, and Faroese are in the West Scandinavian branch, further removed from the original German.

Icelandic is an interesting case, because while it is Germanic in vocabulary, it has an inflectional grammar that's like Latin and even more like Old English.

You can probably tell that languages are of great interest to me.

I read once that up to the widespread use of printing presses, when spelling was becoming standardized, that Dutch used to be considered a dialect of German.

I don't want to start an argument here about which is considered a language in its own right as the Dutch will claim, and rightly so, that Dutch is a language and not a dialect. There is also Frisian which I have heard some Dutch say is a dialect, but the Frisians will say that it is a language. I once saw a program on German television in which everyone was speaking Frisian. At first I thought that I was listening to English.

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

I read once that up to the widespread use of printing presses, when spelling was becoming standardized, that Dutch used to be considered a dialect of German.

I don't want to start an argument here about which is considered a language in its own right as the Dutch will claim, and rightly so, that Dutch is a language and not a dialect. There is also Frisian which I have heard some Dutch say is a dialect, but the Frisians will say that it is a language. I once saw a program on German television in which everyone was speaking Frisian. At first I thought that I was listening to English.

I have had the same experience with Frisian. It sounds very much like English. I won't take a position on the Dutch language or dialect question, but direct your attention -- just to muddy the waters -- to the question of Flemish.

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

I have had the same experience with Frisian. It sounds very much like English. I won't take a position on the Dutch language or dialect question, but direct your attention -- just to muddy the waters -- to the question of Flemish.

You are muddying the waters, smc. I have known and worked with a great many Dutch and Flemish people. I would say that Flemish is only slightly different than Dutch, not even enough of a difference to call it a dialect. My Dutch friends, in my experience, would agree with me. My Flemish friends would disagree. I really don't want to take a side on this question and as I have a great deal of respect for all of the Dutch and Flemish friends that I have. I have been to both Holland and Belgium and I liked both countries. I did however often find Dutch and Flemish hard to follow.

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

You are muddying the waters, smc. I have known and worked with a great many Dutch and Flemish people. I would say that Flemish is only slightly different than Dutch, not even enough of a difference to call it a dialect. My Dutch friends, in my experience, would agree with me. My Flemish friends would disagree. I really don't want to take a side on this question and as I have a great deal of respect for all of the Dutch and Flemish friends that I have. I have been to both Holland and Belgium and I liked both countries. I did however often find Dutch and Flemish hard to follow.

That was my point precisely. I didn't express an opinion but only pointed a light on the Dutch/Flemish question. My experience is also the same with Dutch and Flemish people viz. how they would characterize their languages.

[Tread]

Frisian is spoken in Netherlands, German and Denmark, and is close to Scots.
Wouldn?t that make Dutch and Danish as easy as German to learn? (if you didn?t leaned German first)

I for one had always problems with languages, I wish they were more logic and simple, but that would make them less interesting.

[ila]

Originally Posted by Tread

Frisian is spoken in Netherlands, German and Denmark, and is close to Scots.
Wouldn?t that make Dutch and Danish as easy as German to learn? (if you didn?t leaned German first).......

I can't see that Frisian is close to Scots. Frisian is a Germanic language and Scots belongs to the Celtic family.

[shadows]

I feel like such a troglodyte reading through this thread.

[smc]

Originally Posted by shadows

I feel like such a troglodyte reading through this thread.

I am resisting the temptation to write this post in a language other than English. Here, shadows, are some possible new avatars for you, offered with my best wishes.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by ila

I can't see that Frisian is close to Scots. Frisian is a Germanic language and Scots belongs to the Celtic family.

I?m ungifted in speeches, for me, a middle strong dialect sounds like a different language, so I can only say what people told me or ask the internet. I even can?t remember if I ever heard someone speaking (Lowland) Scots.

answers.yahoo.com

Wikipedia Frisian_languages

Originally Posted by Wikipedia Frisian_languages

?
The Frisian languages are the most closely related living European languages to English, although Scots is sometimes considered a separate language rather than a dialect of English, which would make Frisian the second most closely related.
?
Frisian is the language most closely related to English and Scots, but after at least five hundred years of being subject to the influence of Dutch, modern Frisian in some aspects bears a greater similarity to Dutch than to English;
?

mamalisa.com

Originally Posted by mamalisa

Frisian is the closest language to English after Scots. Some people consider Scots a dialect of English. Considered thus so, Frisian is the closest language to English.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Tread

I’m ungifted in speeches, for me, a middle strong dialect sounds like a different language, so I can only say what people told me or ask the internet. I even can’t remember if I ever heard someone speaking (Lowland) Scots.

I think ila's two points, both of which I agree with, are that a) Frisian sounds like English, and b) it is not considered a part of the Germanic family but is a Celtic language. These classifications are made on a basis that takes the sound of the language into consideration only marginally, if at all.

[ila]

Originally Posted by ila

I can't see that Frisian is close to Scots. Frisian is a Germanic language and Scots belongs to the Celtic family.

Originally Posted by Tread

I?m ungifted in speeches, for me, a middle strong dialect sounds like a different language, so I can only say what people told me or ask the internet. I even can?t remember if I ever heard someone speaking (Lowland) Scots.

answers.yahoo.com

Wikipedia Frisian_languages


mamalisa.com

When I referred to Scottish I actually meant Gaelic which is not accurate since lowland Scots is descended from Old English. Gaelic is part of the Celtic languages, but is not called Scottish. Rather it is often referred to as Scottish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic, and Highland Gaelic. Reference is here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_Gaelic

[shadows]

Originally Posted by smc

I am resisting the temptation to write this post in a language other than English. Here, shadows, are some possible new avatars for you, offered with my best wishes.

While those are very nice pictures and worthy of consideration for Avatarhood, I will be sticking with the one I am currently using.

Thanks for the funny pics, though.

[smc]

Originally Posted by shadows

While those are very nice pictures and worthy of consideration for Avatarhood, I will be sticking with the one I am currently using.

Thanks for the funny pics, though.

I see. You think the cute troglodyte works better for you?

[SweetCheaks]

Originally Posted by ila

I once saw a program on German television in which everyone was speaking Frisian. At first I thought that I was listening to English.

Frisian sounds very similar to English. I can speak it too, but I prefer to speak Westphalian. Has anyone of you heard Saxon so far? Its the funniest German dialect

[smc]

Originally Posted by SweetCheaks

Frisian sounds very similar to English. I can speak it too, but I prefer to speak Westphalian. Has anyone of you heard Saxon so far? Its the funniest German dialect

"Funniest" is definitely the right word for Saxonian, although my friends in Dresden would not appreciate that characterization.

The last time I was in Germany, I visited them and late one night we were on Theaterplatz, in front of the Semperoper or the Zwinger museum (I can't remember for sure). There was a guy dressed as one of the Saxony kings, doing a street show. He had torchbearers and even his "wenchy" mistress by his side. He was doing a comedy show about Bavarians. He explained how he had sent his ambassadors to Munich to help them, and they reported back to him about the Bavarians: "they are rolling in the muddy streets all the time, fighting," and "they drink their beer out of barrels with handles on them." I was in Dresden with another friend, from Munich, and she had to help me understand the thick Saxonian of his speaking (she also taught at the university in Dresden, part-time, and had come to understand the dialect quite well). It was really funny: as she helped me with the parts I couldn't understand, and realized the insults, she became more and more agitated until she shouted out something in Saxonian that was a real insult to the king. One of his guards came at her with his lance, menacingly, and then everyone cracked up laughing!