Barack Obama

[CreativeMind]

Originally Posted by Talvenada

JIM: Translation: Unless you're perfect you cannot criticize the right, because they don't criticize--they ONLY disagree. You're not perfect if there is 1 thing to question, which means they can do a million things you think are wrong.

TAL

Tal, just for the record, all I was saying with my post -- or rather letting Keith Olbermann make my point for me -- is that broad blanket statements like Randolph made ("Its sad there is so much hate among conservatives. If the hate mongers, Rush, et all would just go away so we could live in peace") and that Jim made ("Not hate, Randy, FEAR") really hold no water when statements of EQUAL anger and fear mongoring are made on the Left TOO.

Look, do I think Rush often goes over the top? Absolutely.
Do I think a Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck can go over the top? I do.
There -- I'll admit it and put it on the record.

But at the same time that you are trying to get that concession out of me, you can't honestly expect me (or others) to just look the other way and ignore the bitterness coming from the Left as well. Otherwise we'd have the equivalent of you and me squaring off in a boxing ring, at which point you say, "I'd like us to have a fair match." And then as soon as I say "sure" and start to turn, to go to my corner, you quickly blurt out "But I'm allowed to get in a sucker punch first!" KA-POW!

I mean, come on -- fair is fair. If you or anyone else on the Left wants me (or others) to denounce over-the-top ravings of a Rush Limbaugh or whoever, then the Left has to likewise admit to (as I showed with my clip) that the frothing at the mouth ravings of people like Keith Olbermann or Rachel Maddow, etc, are EQUALLY nutty.

In fact, since we're on the topic of simply spreading hate or fear, allow me to present Liberal radio and TV host Ed Schultz on MSNBC just tonight, as he discusses Sarah Palin's speech at the Tea Party Convention with Bob Shrum, Democratic strategist and perpetual party hack, who decided NOT to discuss her speech on intellectual grounds, but chose instead to take a cheap personal shot at Palin by bitterly declaring: "She came across as a merchant of hate with an oh gosh smile." Wow, that's some real Ivy League intellectual analysis there, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3pre0VgX5s


So, I'll repeat what I said before: Yeah, you guys are right.
No on on the Left could ever be accused of peddling hate or fear themselves.
(insert mocking eye roll here)

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by CreativeMind

Tal, just for the record, all I was saying with my post -- or rather letting Keith Olbermann make my point for me -- is that broad blanket statements like Randolph made ("Its sad there is so much hate among conservatives. If the hate mongers, Rush, et all would just go away so we could live in peace") and that Jim made ("Not hate, Randy, FEAR") really hold no water when statements of EQUAL anger and fear mongoring are made on the Left TOO.

Look, do I think Rush often goes over the top? Absolutely.
Do I think a Sean Hannity or Glenn Beck can go over the top? I do.
There -- I'll admit it and put it on the record.

But at the same time that you are trying to get that concession out of me, you can't honestly expect me (or others) to just look the other way and ignore the bitterness coming from the Left as well. Otherwise we'd have the equivalent of you and me squaring off in a boxing ring, at which point you say, "I'd like us to have a fair match." And then as soon as I say "sure" and start to turn, to go to my corner, you quickly blurt out "But I'm allowed to get in a sucker punch first!" KA-POW!

I mean, come on -- fair is fair. If you or anyone else on the Left wants me (or others) to denounce over-the-top ravings of a Rush Limbaugh or whoever, then the Left has to likewise admit to (as I showed with my clip) that the frothing at the mouth ravings of people like Keith Olbermann or Rachel Maddow, etc, are EQUALLY nutty.

In fact, since we're on the topic of simply spreading hate or fear, allow me to present Liberal radio and TV host Ed Schultz on MSNBC just tonight, as he discusses Sarah Palin's speech at the Tea Party Convention with Bob Shrum, Democratic strategist and perpetual party hack, who decided NOT to discuss her speech on intellectual grounds, but chose instead to take a cheap personal shot at Palin by bitterly declaring: "She came across as a merchant of hate with an oh gosh smile." Wow, that's some real Ivy League intellectual analysis there, huh?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3pre0VgX5s


So, I'll repeat what I said before: Yeah, you guys are right.
No on on the Left could ever be accused of peddling hate or fear themselves.
(insert mocking eye roll here)

C-MIN:

Firstly, I'm in the middle with a view to the right and the left, and there is a big slant to the right in combativeness. Schultz is a far-left guy that I stopped watching after 6 weeks, but he is no match for Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Levin. He's behind them in 5th place for over the top. Olbermann, Maddow and O'Reilly are behind the big 5. Mathews and Van Sustern are the fairest of the lot, and ALL on both sides are biased by nature, which shows in their wording.

Secondly, my interest in politics cannot be satisfied by honest debate, because that requires 2 sides to be honest. So, I look for weak arguments to feast on, because I'm offered no other choice. I find whose-side-are-you-on arguments to be offensive. It should be a debate of facts, and not a charlatan sporting event.

Thirdly, I wasn't trying to get you to admit something; I was pointing out an argument that stated the other side does it: equal.

Personally, I don't care who is in The WH from Conse 'Pub to Lib Dem, but just do the job. Granted, I'm more left of center than ever after 8 years of The Clinton-Ken Starr Admin., after 8 years of Bush-Cheney with 118 questionable actions, and after 1 year of daily attacks on Obama. Obama has gotten more in 1 year than Bush got in 8 years, and it's not just the pols. It's the right media, and citizens.

Example: Don't tell me we are threatened by a country that is militarily 60% of what it was 12 before, when its army couldn't surrender fast enough. That that is more of a priority than getting bin Laden, and you expect me to trust your judgement as president? That means whether you're Clinton, Bush or Obama, I don't want to hear what I can see thru. This is just me, which is why Palin is so unappealing to me.

As far as Obama's questionable actions, I'll name 8.

TRACY:

1. 50 Gitmo prisoners who'll be imprisoned for life without charge, and/or with tarnished evidence (waterboarding).

2. Wiretapping continues.

3. No Wall Street restrictions for a year.

4. Pushing for bi-partisanship with pols who opening brag they will negotiate in poor faith to slow down and stop legislation only.

5. Upping The Afgan War with more troops after 8 years.

6. The Iraq War not ending soon enough.

7. Not prosecuting war crimes above the legalized torture of Yoo

8. and below is very quiet.

1 is not having enough info to find a better action.
2 is not talked about to show a change has been made.
3 is now heading in the right direction, but it's way too early.
4 is what's wrong with politics, and I feel it may be more than a 1-person job for anybody.
5 might be the right choice, but need to know more of what's going on.
6 seems to be slow, but that could be just me.
7 might be the best option for the country, or not.
8 appears to be a little too quiet.


I only say 118 questionable Bush actions, some are no longer questionable, because none are prosecuted.

So, Conse 'Pubs, bring a crap argument and I'll bring a mop.

TAL

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Talvenada

Personally, I don't care who is in The WH from Conse 'Pub to Lib Dem, but just do the job. Granted, I'm more left of center than ever after 8 years of The Clinton-Ken Starr Admin., after 8 years of Bush-Cheney with 118 questionable actions, and after 1 year of daily attacks on Obama. Obama has gotten more in 1 year than Bush got in 8 years, and it's not just the pols. It's the right media, and citizens.

There's no argument, the right-media is letting BO have it. But at the same time, BO does things that should prompt an objective journalist to ask probing follow up questions and the left-media just lets it go. Also, the administration wants to (sometimes demands to) preview questions whenever possible. That's not how it's supposed to work.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

This is just me, which is why Palin is so unappealing to me.

She's unappealing to me too. Politically that is. Other than that, she's kinda hot.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

As far as Obama's questionable actions, I'll name 8.

TRACY:

1. 50 Gitmo prisoners who'll be imprisoned for life without charge, and/or with tarnished evidence (waterboarding).

Originally Posted by Talvenada

2. Wiretapping continues.

This is a tough one. Presumably they only wiretap questionable people, and it has netted results. On the other hand, they could wiretap anyone. But do they? Who knows?

Originally Posted by Talvenada

3. No Wall Street restrictions for a year.

That's that free market thing.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

4. Pushing for bi-partisanship with pols who opening brag they will negotiate in poor faith to slow down and stop legislation only.

Polls show that the american people are against health care and out of control government spending. There is no one in congress with voting power to represent these people who are the majority. So republicans use the only tool they have which is to slow down or stop legislation.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

5. Upping The Afgan War with more troops after 8 years.

I'm not sure about this one because I've never heard from BO what our goal in Afghanistan is, or what his larger picture of the war on terror is, if any.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

6. The Iraq War not ending soon enough.

I'm fine with this war ending because we have for the most part won it.

Originally Posted by Talvenada

7. Not prosecuting war crimes above the legalized torture of Yoo

huh?

Originally Posted by Talvenada

8. and below is very quiet.

below what?

Originally Posted by Talvenada

I only say 118 questionable Bush actions, some are no longer questionable, because none are prosecuted.

From what I've seen there are multitudes of gripes attributed to Bush, when what's really going on isn't so black and white. And also things like Abu Ghraib being blamed on Bush when it was actually service men & women who committed those acts on their own.

And this summarizes my thoughts pretty well about the start of the Iraq war...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p-qIq32m8

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

There's no argument, the right-media is letting BO have it. But at the same time, BO does things that should prompt an objective journalist to ask probing follow up questions and the left-media just lets it go. Also, the administration wants to (sometimes demands to) preview questions whenever possible. That's not how it's supposed to work.
[/url]

These are ideological selections, and the MSM doesn't condemn Obama for not governing like Bush or a conservative, which is what the right does.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

That's that free market thing.
[/url]

That free-market thing happened when they deregulated, and they got 1929 again. If there were no rules & regulations, greed would reign supreme. It's happened twice, and today gaming the system makes it even more necessary. Greed needs to be policed to the point of protecting those who can get screwed even if they do everything right.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Polls show that the american people are against health care and out of control government spending. There is no one in congress with voting power to represent these people who are the majority. So republicans use the only tool they have which is to slow down or stop legislation.
[/url]

If it was only health care, it would look legit, but it's only yes on Bush's policies continued.

My point was that it has been made clear, that even if you give them everything they want, they'll vote no.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

huh?
below what?
[/url]

Not prosecuting war crimes above (covered by) the legalized torture of John Yoo, and below (not covered by) is very quiet.

Waterboarding has been considered a war crime for years, except to Bush-Cheney.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

From what I've seen there are multitudes of gripes attributed to Bush, when what's really going on isn't so black and white. And also things like Abu Ghraib being blamed on Bush when it was actually service men & women who committed those acts on their own.
[/url]

I use my own list, and Obama is on track for 64, compared to 118 for Bush. If half prove to be true, that would make 59 for Bush.

The Bush ones are a combo of Bush & Cheney, and there are none for Biden, yet.



TRACY:

My view of a questionable action is one where a poor selection was made. If a better choice was available at the time, it was a bad selection. If it turns out to be the best of bad choices, then it was a good selection.

These are not ideological-based actions, and do not favor either side. It does include actions that are or have a good chance of being known by the pres. or VP, and could have been stopped.

Of Bush's 118, some have proven on target; some are still open; but none have been validated, yet.


TAL

[sissygirl]

Obama is an idiot who has no concept of a free society. the only opinion he seeks is his own and is the most dishonest and deceitful president we have ever had. I for one am sick of his lies and his wasteful spending policies that are going to drive us into a debt we will be unable to pay. I pity our childern and what he is doing to our values

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by sissygirl

Obama is an idiot who has no concept of a free society. the only opinion he seeks is his own and is the most dishonest and deceitful president we have ever had. I for one am sick of his lies and his wasteful spending policies that are going to drive us into a debt we will be unable to pay. I pity our childern and what he is doing to our values

And your opinion of Palin is?

[indyzzzz]

If a Republican got elected, we would still have been here debating about how bad things are turning out. The government cannot admit that they cannot control the future, if they PANIC would ensue

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Talvenada

And your opinion of Palin is?

Palin will not be the republican front runner.

[sissygirl]

Originally Posted by Talvenada

And your opinion of Palin is?

I doubt she will ever become president. I share some of her views but like obama she lacks any experience to be President. hopefully those that voted for obama will remember how it was pointed out numerous times he never had a real job and was absent or failed to vote the majority of time he was in the senate. so he obviously lacked integrity and commitment to those that elected him.

the spend at all cost political hacks we have in office now are not listening to the american people and hopefully we can get rid of them in 2010. what ever happened to "We the People" . have Obama lovers forgotten why they elected him in the first place? the independants sure understand now how much of a liar and phoney he turned out to be and how until recently (only when forced to) the congress and senate didn't care one bit or listen to the american people just rubber stamp king obama and drive the country into socialism.

like Margret Thatcher once said. " the thing about socialism is that eventually they run out of other people money".

Well I for one worked hard for what i have and have no intention of following obamas plan to "redistribute the wealth to those who who only want wants given to them so they become more reliable on big gov"t.

I like freedom of choice and then living by the consequences of my own actions; be they good or bad, that is what American is all about, and what I have faught for during my 26 years serving my country in the Military.