Baseball

[shadows]

Originally Posted by smc

I'm watching the Mark McGwire interview right now on MLB Network and I must admit that as much as I despise steroid use and how it has affected baseball, I feel a bit of sympathy for him. Never for Bonds or Clemens!

I'm glad to see that I am not the only one who feels that way. Thanks!

[dauls]

I left this 'off-topic' post on the hockey thread about a month ago...

Originally Posted by dauls

I'm surprised Mark McGwire gets less flak than Barry Bonds. McGwire refused to discuss the issue at the Congressional hearing, repeating "I'm not here to discuss the past," and "I will be considered guilty no matter what I say."

At least this speculation does seem to be having an affect on McGwire's election to the Hall of Fame, his percentage at the ballot fell below 25% in 2009.

After he broke the home run record in 1998, I remember reading a story which mentioned his taking steroids (in a UK paper, I remember it because baseball stories are so rare in our papers, the comments may have evolved from the US media).
I couldn't believe it was out there and he could still play. Then I found out that baseball didn't have a drug testing policy, amazing when you think they've been testing NFL players, track & field athletes and cyclists for over 20 years.

Unfortunately I never kept that newspaper clipping.
The baseball show on British TV only picked on Bonds and a few others, but not McGwire.
And I never read anything else about McGwire and steroids, even though he looked like 'Arnie's big brother' at the end of his career.

So I begun to think that maybe that newspaper article was a figment of my imagination. Thanks for posting this, at least I now know I'm not totally mad.

OK McGwire may have presented himself as a nicer person than Bonds, but the bottom line is he was a drugs cheat. He was a role model to thousands of kids, but he was another one of the potential catalysts for them to be 'juiced' by unscrupulous coaches. Coaches who saw great potential in a youngster, but knew steroids could be used to make the difference and help the youngster stand out from the others.

Drugs need to be kept out of sport for the sake of the under 18s. Once you are an adult you can do what you want to yourself, and if you get caught, accept your punishment and shut the fck up.

As you've probably guessed by now, I have no sympathy for McGwire. I put him in the same group as Bonds, Sosa, A-Rod, Clemens, Jos? Canseco, etc. You're either clean or a cheat.

It'd be nice if we could go back to the good old days, with Roger Maris' 61 and Hank Aaron's 755 as the home run records. Shame we can't.

It's also a shame that Ken Griffey Jr. has missed so much of is career through injury, and he won't be able to stop cheating A-Rod from setting the career home run record. Hopefully Albert Pujols can carry on for long enough to catch A-Rod and pass him.

[shadows]

It is nice to read an opposing point of view(regarding McGuire, as I agree that drugs in sports are crap). I don't know how I missed your original post, so I'm glad that you posted it again.

Speaking of Sosa, besides the stigma of being a steroid user, he is now being labelled as a "Michael Jackson Wannabe" as he had a picture taken of him recently where he looked very pale(I think I saw it at espn.com). Some people were accusing him of tying to get rid of his Latino traits and trying to become caucasian. I am not sure how true this story is since all I saw was that one article about it. Did you hear about this at all, dauls?

[dauls]

Originally Posted by shadows

It is nice to read an opposing point of view(regarding McGuire, as I agree that drugs in sports are crap). I don't know how I missed your original post, so I'm glad that you posted it again.

Speaking of Sosa, besides the stigma of being a steroid user, he is now being labelled as a "Michael Jackson Wannabe" as he had a picture taken of him recently where he looked very pale(I think I saw it at espn.com). Some people were accusing him of tying to get rid of his Latino traits and trying to become caucasian. I am not sure how true this story is since all I saw was that one article about it. Did you hear about this at all, dauls?

No. That Sammy Sosa story is a new one to me. Apart from the steroid links I haven't heard a thing about him since he last played in 2007.

Sosa also briefly played alongside another member of the 500 HR Club who posted a positive test for steroids: Rafael Palmeiro.

[shadows]

Originally Posted by dauls

No. That Sammy Sosa story is a new one to me. Apart from the steroid links I haven't heard a thing about him since he last played in 2007.

Sosa also briefly played alongside another member of the 500 HR Club who posted a positive test for steroids: Rafael Palmeiro.

I think that whole Texas Rangers team back then was pretty bad with regards to steroids. Wasn't A-Roid on that team too?

I think if you google 'sammy sosa white' and then click on 'Images' you will see the pictures I was talking about.

Of course, one of the places it is on is tmz.com, and we all know that is the place to get the truth.

[shadows]

Interesting blogs, Tal. You are quite the Phillie fan, it looks like.

[smc]

Originally Posted by dauls

OK McGwire may have presented himself as a nicer person than Bonds, but the bottom line is he was a drugs cheat. He was a role model to thousands of kids, but he was another one of the potential catalysts for them to be 'juiced' by unscrupulous coaches. Coaches who saw great potential in a youngster, but knew steroids could be used to make the difference and help the youngster stand out from the others.

Drugs need to be kept out of sport for the sake of the under 18s. Once you are an adult you can do what you want to yourself, and if you get caught, accept your punishment and shut the fck up.

As you've probably guessed by now, I have no sympathy for McGwire. I put him in the same group as Bonds, Sosa, A-Rod, Clemens, Jos? Canseco, etc. You're either clean or a cheat.

... Hopefully Albert Pujols can carry on for long enough to catch A-Rod and pass him.

After reading dauls' post, I feel I must clarify my earlier post about watching the McGwire interview. I wrote my initial impressions.

I want to make a few points.

1. Performance-enhancing drugs have no place whatsoever in sport. Their use is cheating, and -- as dauls points out -- dangerous for kids.

2. Right or wrong, none of these drugs were specifically banned in baseball at the time the so-called "steroid era" began.

3. I believe Mark McGwire and people like Andy Pettite when they say that they took these drugs to help recover from injuries. This was not the case for people like Bonds or Clemens or A-Rod. This does not eliminate point #1, above.

4. I think all the records set during the steroid era should at least have an asterisk (*) that indicates they are suspect.

5. Mark McGwire failed in his interview to state unequivocally that his steroids, taken for injuries, essentially increased his batting power (if not his "god-given skill" of hand-to-eye coordination or his bat speed, which is a function of swinging skill more than strength). He hinted that he would have hit just as many home runs without steroids. Whether that is or not, his failure to own up to even the possibility greatly diminishes his "confession."

There is a lot more I could write, but I will leave it at that, except to reiterate that steroids and HGH are wrong for baseball: they are dangerous, and they represent cheating. On that there can be no equivocation.

[shadows]

Here is another chapter to that story. Jose Canseco(who basically got the whole ball rolling with his book 'Juiced', says that McGuire and La Russa are not telling the whole truth. Here is the article from tsn.ca.

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CANSECO SAYS MCGWIRE, LA RUSSA NOT TELLING THE TRUTH

A day after Mark McGwire admitted to using steroids, one former teammate believes that McGwire hasn't told the entire truth.

Former 'Bash Brother' Jose Canseco, whose 2005 book 'Juiced' opened up the culture of steriods at the time, was not to pleased with some things that McGwire said on Monday, specifically when McGwire said that he and Canseco never talked about steroids, let alone injected each other, which Canseco claimed in the book.

"I've got no problems with a few of the things he's saying, but again, it's ironic and strange that Mark McGwire denies that I injected him with steroids. He's calling me a liar again," Canseco said on ESPN 1000 radio. "I've defended Mark, I've said a lot of good things about him, but I can't believe he just called me a liar.

"There is something very strange going on here, and I'm wondering what it is. I even polygraphed that subject matter, that I injected him, and passed it completely. So I want to challenge him on national TV to a polygraph examination. I want to see him call me a liar under a polygraph examination."

Canseco also took a shot at current St. Louis Cardinals manager Tony La Russa, who managed McGwire in St. Louis and both McGwire and Canseco in Oakland, for his public statement that he didn't know that McGwire had used steroids until McGwire called him early on Monday.

"That's a blatant lie," Canseco said. "Tony La Russa was quoted as saying that I was using steroids back then, and I was talking about it in the clubhouse, openly. That's a blatant lie.

"There are some things here that are so ridiculous, and so disrespectful for the public and the media to believe. I just can't believe it. I'm in total shock. These guys remind me of politicians that go up and just lie to the public and expect to get elected."

Canseco, who told ESPN that he is still a big fan of McGwire, is tired of defending what he wrote in 'Juiced.'

"I'm tired of justifying what I've said," Canseco said. "I've polygraphed, I've proven that I'm 100 percent accurate. I never exaggerated. I told it the way it actually happened. I'm the only one who has told it the way it actually happened. Major League Baseball is still trying to defend itself. It's strange. All I have is the truth, and I've proven that."

[smc]

I've been giving a lot more thought today to Mark McGwire's interview with Bob Costas. It may still be reasonable to believe that McGwire began taking steroids because of injuries, his refusal to acknowledge even the possibility that the drugs may have contributed positively to his performance numbers renders his apology meaningless. So now we have an admission of guilt, but not the apology that would come with a full confession of the facts.

I am not alone in this assessment. I found this evening that most of the commentators were saying virtually the same thing.

Here's some of what McGwire said when asked by Costas whether the drugs enhanced his performance. Insisting they did not, he said: ""I just believed in my ability, and my hand to eye coordination, and the strength of my mind. I developed them on their own"

Asked whether he would have had the same level of home run productivity if he "had never touched anything more than a protein shake," McGwire said yes, insisting he could have surpassed Babe Ruth's productivity without the drugs.

Keith Olbermann made a very good point: while some speculate whether he might have hit, say, 40 without the steroids rather than 70 in a season, the truth is that if he took the drugs for the reason he claims -- for his health, so that he could be healthy enough to play baseball -- the drugs actually enabled him to hit any number over zero.

Clearly, McGwire had no choice but to "come clean" (his words) because of his recent hiring by the St. Louis Cardinals as hitting coach.

Today comes the revelation that McGwire's "crisis manager" consultant for yesterday's events is Ari Fleischer, George W. Bush's first press secretary of his presidency. As Keith Olbermann put it tonight (I am paraphrasing), now we know that Fleischer's worse "hit and miss" wasn't "Mission Accomplished."

[dauls]

Nice posts smc & shadows.

I've only seen excerpts of McGwire's interview, but I didn't fall for his crocodile tears. What does he want? A fcking Oscar. Maybe he taught Paltrow how to weep to order when she collected her 'Best Actress' award.

The "I only took small amounts to help recover from injuries and to cope with the strain of a 162 game schedule", sounds like bullsht to me.

If anyone in baseball would have 'needed' steroids to help get through a 162 game season then that would've been the hero who managed to string together a run of 2,632 games, he played through a fck of a lot of injuries.
But somehow he knew taking steroids was wrong, even though the Commissioner and MLB failed to implement doping tests in baseball long after other sports had done the decent thing.

Taking steroids in baseball may not have been banned in McGwire's time, but he knew it was wrong. Look at the size of him when he hit that record breaking homer, how did he manage to run the bases carrying that upper body around?

Would he have still hit 583 homers without the steroids?
We'll never know... will we?
So he can't say "Yes, I would have." Unless he can find a time machine, travel back to before his first 'juicing' and then play his career again... clean.
Where's the Doctor when you need him? Oops! That's what probably got McGwire into trouble in the first place.

I bet Bonds is currently enjoying all the attention being on someone else.

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When it comes to steroids, I'm surprised no athletes have been nobbled by opponents. There must be some dodgy coaches/athletes out there who've wanted/tried to spike the competition's food/drink with the hope that they'll get caught by the testers.

[shadows]

Originally Posted by dauls

Nice posts smc & shadows.

I've only seen excerpts of McGwire's interview, but I didn't fall for his crocodile tears. What does he want? A fcking Oscar. Maybe he taught Paltrow how to weep to order when she collected her 'Best Actress' award.

The "I only took small amounts to help recover from injuries and to cope with the strain of a 162 game schedule", sounds like bullsht to me.

If anyone in baseball would have 'needed' steroids to help get through a 162 game season then that would've been the hero who managed to string together a run of 2,632 games, he played through a fck of a lot of injuries.
But somehow he knew taking steroids was wrong, even though the Commissioner and MLB failed to implement doping tests in baseball long after other sports had done the decent thing.

Taking steroids in baseball may not have been banned in McGwire's time, but he knew it was wrong. Look at the size of him when he hit that record breaking homer, how did he manage to run the bases carrying that upper body around?

Would he have still hit 583 homers without the steroids?
We'll never know... will we?
So he can't say "Yes, I would have." Unless he can find a time machine, travel back to before his first 'juicing' and then play his career again... clean.
Where's the Doctor when you need him? Oops! That's what probably got McGwire into trouble in the first place.

I bet Bonds is currently enjoying all the attention being on someone else.

-----------------

When it comes to steroids, I'm surprised no athletes have been nobbled by opponents. There must be some dodgy coaches/athletes out there who've wanted/tried to spike the competition's food/drink with the hope that they'll get caught by the testers.

Thanks dauls.

Regarding Bonds, he will be happy all right...at least until his trial starts.

Just in case you were wondering, you can swear if you want to.