Butterfly Effect Phenomenon or something like it

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Why can't we perceive it yet and remember the future? Because the 2nd law of thermodynamics means that the chemical reactions that create memories in our brains only work in one direction in time.

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Tread

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

A quote from weburbia.com.

"To keep things simple, let's start by considering just classical Newtonian mechanics. The form which the laws of physics take is crucial to our understanding of causality. Newton's laws take the form of a set of differential equations describing the motion of particles under forces that act between them. If we know the initial positions and velocities of all the particles at an initial time then their positions are determined at any future time. So does this form for the laws of physics allow us to justify our concept of causality. It would seem so because the initial conditions seem to be causing all that happens in the future.

There is a catch. The laws of physics in this form can be made to work identically in reverse. If we know the final state of a system we can just as easily determine its past. Newton's laws do not explain why past events are the cause of future events.

How about the laws of thermodynamics? If we have a system of many particles then we can not determine all their positions and velocities exactly. When we know only some statistical information about them they obey laws which seem not to be reversible. The second laws of thermodynamics says that entropy must always increase. Could this be linked to causality?

Indeed, the continual increase of entropy is intimately linked to our perception of causality. Entropy is a measure of disorder in a system and defines an arrow of time which can be linked to the psychological arrow. There is, however, a catch. The second law of thermodynamics is inexplicable in terms of the underlying laws of physics which, as far as we know, are reversible. This is enshrined in a theorem of relativistic quantum field theory which proves the necessity of CPT conservation.

The increase of entropy can be understood in certain idealised experiments. For example, if we take two closed containers filled with gases which are each in thermal and chemical equilibrium, and allow them to mix by connecting the two systems without allowing any energy to escape or enter, then when the system comes back into equilibrium the entropy of the final state can be shown theoretically to be higher than the combined entropies in the two original systems. This seems to be theoretical evidence for increasing entropy and it is confirmed by experiment, but we must not be missled. The assumption that systems tend towards equilibrium has been justified. We are victims of our prejudices about causality again and have devised an argument with circular reasoning to support it."

Perhaps you guys can explain what this means.

[The Conquistador]

It is actually known as the Chaos Theory.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by randolph

Perhaps you guys can explain what this means.

Explain what exactly? Or a short roundup of the whole article?

The causality in the memory example is not reversible either, not like the Newtonian mechanics and relation to causality.
The thermodynamics describes Energy.

The example with the two closed containers filled with gases which are each in thermal and chemical equilibrium and don't allowing any energy to escape or enter. The answer is later written on that page you have this from. You can't compare the two single entropy's in equilibrium to one combined entropy. You have to compare a single entropy with two sub systems in equilibrium to the combined equilibrium. If that is done, there isn't a conflict anymore.

This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!

The only way time travel is possible is through parallel universes.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

The only way time travel is possible is through parallel universes.

Nothing is easier than travel in the future. If you travel fast and at a place with a high gravity your time is relative slower than on stationary and low gravity places.
Let's say you travel very fast over the surface of Jupiter and come back to earth, you are relative seen from you in the future.
The person who travelled the most in the future in one trip is Сергей Константинович Крикалёв (Sergei Konstantinowitsch Krikaljow), a Russian cosmonaut. He travelled about 0.04 seconds in future, relative to earth.
He travelled only fast.

[randolph]

"This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!"

We live in a "Newtonian" world yet Einstein's theories, quantum mechanics and chaos theory are active. It seems the more we know the less we understand. If the LHC finds the Higgs boson, more mysteries will be revealed. Physics may be even better than sex.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Hey Tracy! Very good, profound, are you a physicist?

Yup

Originally Posted by Tread

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

I mean that there is nothing that physically prevents the chemical reactions that encode memories from happening in reverse time, except for the 2nd law of thermo. For example, it's possible for freak sound, tremors and temperature fluctuations to travel through the air and floor to propel thousands of bits of egg shell and egg goop in the right direction with enough force to come together perfectly into an egg shell and form atomic bonds to become a solid egg. And the momentum of this fusion could propel the egg up to a counter top where it smoothly rolls across the counter. It is astronomically improbable though. Same with chemical reactions that encode memories. They are physically able to record the future, but it is astronomically improbable.

Originally Posted by randolph

A quote from weburbia.com.

"To keep things simple, let's start by considering just classical Newtonian mechanics. The form which the laws of physics take is crucial to our understanding of causality.....

....

Indeed, the continual increase of entropy is intimately linked to our perception of causality. Entropy is a measure of disorder in a system and defines an arrow of time which can be linked to the psychological arrow....

Yup, that's what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by randolph

There is, however, a catch. The second law of thermodynamics is inexplicable in terms of the underlying laws of physics which, as far as we know, are reversible.

It's not inexplicable. Entropy, or disorder, always increases. This is because there are vastly more disordered states than ordered states, so it is more probable for a system to become more disordered. Whenever it appears that something becomes more ordered, like when a star collapses into a beautifully symmetric neutron star, it always ends up causing more disorder elsewhere, so the net change is more entropy.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Yup



I mean that there is nothing that physically prevents the chemical reactions that encode memories from happening in reverse time, except for the 2nd law of thermo. For example, it's possible for freak sound, tremors and temperature fluctuations to travel through the air and floor to propel thousands of bits of egg shell and egg goop in the right direction with enough force to come together perfectly into an egg shell and form atomic bonds to become a solid egg. And the momentum of this fusion could propel the egg up to a counter top where it smoothly rolls across the counter. It is astronomically improbable though. Same with chemical reactions that encode memories. They are physically able to record the future, but it is astronomically improbable.



Yup, that's what I'm saying.


It's not inexplicable. Entropy, or disorder, always increases. This is because there are vastly more disordered states than ordered states, so it is more probable for a system to become more disordered. Whenever it appears that something becomes more ordered, like when a star collapses into a beautifully symmetric neutron star, it always ends up causing more disorder elsewhere, so the net change is more entropy.

OK, entropy increases in a closed system where no heat can enter or leave. However, If heat can enter or leave the system then it is compatible with the 2nd law. Life is a process of entropy reduction. However in the process of creating life, it is raising the entropy in its surroundings. So the 2nd law is preserved?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK, entropy increases in a closed system where no heat can enter or leave. However, If heat can enter or leave the system then it is compatible with the 2nd law. Life is a process of entropy reduction. However in the process of creating life, it is raising the entropy in its surroundings. So the 2nd law is preserved?

Right. Life is a self organizing force, which lowers entropy. But life always produces byproducts through respiration, thermal radiation and excrement so overall entropy is increased.