Ask Jenae for real answers - no games.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I'm not speaking for Jenae but as an atheist myself. ....../////////..... So color me atheist.

Tracy, As you may, or may not have noticed, I am reluctant to accept the label "atheist" as I indicated in post #165. I prefer to align myself with Sam Harris in that regard. If you are not familiar with Sam Harris; please take time to watch some of his talks on youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=630y_aBIuc0 is a good one to start with.

He makes the point very well that since we do not have a label for those that don't believe in astrology, Elvis is still alive, or the Earth is flat; then why should we be labeled. We aren't the ones that are making claims on silly, unsubstantiated notions. It is the theists who should be the ones to bear a label, not us. We are the ones who are being rational.

Please watch Sam and join with the rest of us who don't believe we should be labeled so.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

He makes the point very well that since we do not have a label for those that don't believe in astrology, Elvis is still alive, or the Earth is flat; then why should we be labeled. We aren't the ones that are making claims on silly, unsubstantiated notions. It is the theists who should be the ones to bear a label, not us. We are the ones who are being rational.

Please watch Sam and join with the rest of us who don't believe we should be labeled so.

Makes sense to me...

[sesame]

Originally Posted by tracycoxx

life evolved from inanimate matter.

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

early life forms exhaled oxygen into the atmosphere.

Exhale oxygen!!! Its like that "emails in this thread" thing all over again! Did you mean emit by photosynthesis?

Nothing, as I see it, is the complete absence of matter and energy

I didnt say the Ultimate Consciousness is devoid of energy! It is the source of all energy. With E=mc^2 and matter-antimatter collisions, you can see that there is a state when all matter fuses into Energy. But here you and I differ. You prefer stupid energy and I conscious energy.

You take nature for granted, as if you know it all! I think we know very little about nature. How old is our knowledge of science? 200 years maximum. Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! But Nature is one. We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

You cant deny your own consciousness. Because if you do, you prove that you are conscious.

[ila]

With the current discussion going on about origins here is a question that is more philosophical than scientific (although there might be some science to it).

What was there before the big bang and how long was the period before the big bang?

[sesame]

How do you define time?
Where was time before the big bang?


Space is such an important factor in multi dimensions!
How much space did this universe occupy before the big bang?

How many times did this universe expand and collapse? Like Bang...Bang...Bang...

How long has it been doing it?

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

How do you define time?
Where was time before the big bang?


Space is such an important factor in multi dimensions!
How much space did this universe occupy before the big bang? All of it

How many times did this universe expand and collapse? Like Bang...Bang...Bang... 319 times

How long has it been doing it?

Since year 0

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

Exhale oxygen!!! Its like that "emails in this thread" thing all over again! Did you mean emit by photosynthesis?

I didnt say the Ultimate Consciousness is devoid of energy! It is the source of all energy. With E=mc^2 and matter-antimatter collisions, you can see that there is a state when all matter fuses into Energy. But here you and I differ. You prefer stupid energy and I conscious energy.

I had higher expectations for this conversation. You seemed like someone who could grasp the experiments in evolution I cited. You make a huge point out of a trivial use of words to draw attention away from the fact that I showed that your oxygen cycle, water cycle, and the inter-dependence of living beings example doesn't necessarily have to be planned by a god. Yes I know plankton do not have lungs. Blood receives oxygen in the avioli in the lungs. That's how animals exhale CO2. Photosynthesis is the mechanism plants and microorganisms use which uses CO2 and oxygen is the byproduct - i.e. exhales oxygen "i.e. give forth gaseous matter". Look it up, but try and keep up with the actual content of the conversation.

Same with the nothingness I described. Try and focus here: Why is this NOTHING so favourite to me. (and no I won't ridicule your grammer there): Because anything other than nothing (and yes, that would include conscious energy) would beg the question: How did that come to be?

Stop deflecting and continue the conversation.

[sesame]

Just because scientists have observed a few Laws, dont take nature for granted! "Oh, its that simple nature we've always known!"
NO! Its that Ancient, mostly Unknown Nature, that has controlled everything since the beginning of time. All the mysteries are inside her belly!

Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

Who conveniently created life from non-living matter? Who sustained it in this hostile environment? What caused so much water in liquid form on earth? Who taught the first phototrophic bacteria or algae to photosynthesize? What plan caused the emitted oxygen to support all other lifeforms? All other cycles... Nitrogen, CO2, H2O, Aminoacids, RNA, DNA... ... I mean not only things concerned with life, but also atoms, their structure, their properties, sub-atomic particles, electrons, their orbits, their hungry and satisfied states... its amazingly well planned! You think all these connections happened by chance? This unscientific fascination of prejudiced scientists with Chance or, Accident or, Luck is so illogical!

Just think of it, the states of matter, solid, liquid, gas, ionic vapour, plasma, fusion, energy... its arranged in a perfect order! Come on, Tracy, this cannot be random!

I am not talking about the insane worship ritual of some deity here. I am talking about Nature in the most Logical manner.

[sesame]

There was no theory of relativity or Quantum mechanics then. I know Gallileo died in 1642. Kepler lived before 1630 and Copernicus before 1543.

If you really want to go back, Euclid lived in the 3rd century BC and there was Vedic Mathematics 1000s of years ago.

Great sage Kapil, the author of Samkhya Philosophy admitted the existence of soul, but denied God, in absence of proof! (Samkhya gave rise to Vedanta and Tantra )
In the Later Vedic age, Philosopher Charvak said, there is no afterlife, so take huge loans, eat butter, enjoy life. There is no God to punish you!

So what? In every age, some people believed in God, some remained sceptics. What I am trying to say is, that Nature's perfect engineering is proof enough of a Higher consciousness. Nature herself is God!

I am not looking for some bearded man on a throne, set upon some clouds, who either sends you to heaven, or, to eternal hellfire, for the work of one tiny lifetime! This idea is indeed preposterous.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

What I am trying to say is, that Nature's perfect engineering is proof enough of a Higher consciousness. Nature herself is God!

I am not looking for some bearded man on a throne, set upon some clouds, who either sends you to heaven, or, to eternal hellfire, for the work of one tiny lifetime! This idea is indeed preposterous.

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Well then you had best explain how Nature is God. And don't give me that perfect engineering nonsense again, and everything in Nature is a miracle BS.

If nature is such a perfect engineer, then somebody better talk to whoever is in charge of quality control.

The fact is that you are suffering from PITS syndrome and you are the only one who can cure yourself of it. You don't seem to have as bad of a case as a lot of people, so perhaps there is hope for you.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

What I am trying to say is, that Nature's perfect engineering is proof enough of a Higher consciousness. Nature herself is God!

I am not looking for some bearded man on a throne, set upon some clouds, who either sends you to heaven, or, to eternal hellfire, for the work of one tiny lifetime! This idea is indeed preposterous.

Again you are mischaracterizing. Who brought up bearded men on thrones and heaven and hell?

Evidence of order is not evidence of consciousness. Take the game of life for example. These complex designs
http://www.codeproject.com/KB/cs/Gam...rit/Life35.png
were created by a few simple rules:

* A cell is either dead or alive.

* Each cell (dead or alive) is evaluated according to the number of immediate neighbours (maximum eight in original model).

* Then according to the number of neighbors, each cell may be born, stay alive or die.

(and yes, I know a consciousness invented the game of life, but that was only to create the virtual world where simple physics exists). You can claim that a consciousness created the laws that govern the universe and gave rise to life on earth like a gigantic game of life. But still, who created the consciousness? What does the consciousness exist in before it creates the universe?

Here's an example that doesn't include any consciousness. It's just math. The mandelbrot set, which uses the iterated equation Z = Z2 + C. From that, infinitely complex fractals can be created.
http://www.ddewey.net/mandelbrot/spiral.png

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by sesame

Who conveniently created life from non-living matter? Who sustained it in this hostile environment? What caused so much water in liquid form on earth? Who taught the first phototrophic bacteria or algae to photosynthesize? What plan caused the emitted oxygen to support all other lifeforms?

Who created the entity who caused all these things? Who created the entity that created the entity who caused all these things? Who created...

Originally Posted by sesame

Just think of it, the states of matter, solid, liquid, gas, ionic vapour, plasma, fusion, energy... its arranged in a perfect order! Come on, Tracy, this cannot be random!

When did I say it was random? Actually you claimed that was my position before and I called you out on your strawman argument. I went through lengthy explanations of cause and effect examples showing that it wasn't just random. Apparently that went in one eyeball and out the other. If you want to have meaningful discussions you will have to stop mischaracterizing my position.

[ila]

Astronomers tell us that the universe is expanding.

What is the universe expanding into?

Is it displacing anything as it expands?

How much more can it expand?

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by sesame

Prove it first by creating life. How about "Life came from Life force itself"?

.

You take nature for granted, as if you know it all! I think we know very little about nature. How old is our knowledge of science? 200 years maximum. Natural and Supernatural are different terms concocted by us! But Nature is one. We call Supernatural whatever we cannot explain with our limited knowledge. But it belongs to the same Nature.

You cant deny your own consciousness. Because if you do, you prove that you are conscious.

__________________________________________________ __________

So.... our knowledge of science only goes back 200 years? maximum? Ok, let's seen now 2009 ...minus.... 200 .... equals....... 1809. No science before the year 1809. Oh, you are absolutely right ...... there were no scientists before then........ they were heretics and unbelievers Best to burn em, hang em. whatever, ...just shut them up before they erode the faith of the faithful. Fie on Newton! To hell with Benjamin Franklin! Keep Galileo in jail until he dies!