Transsexuality and religion

[hankhavelock]

This was misplaced in another thread. It belongs here:

The Lord be praised! Find me the place in scripture where Jesus Christ condemned transsexuality...

Don't bother to try to find it...

I'm christian, and I do believe in the good message of Jesus Christ.

Most of my trans*lovers have been muslim, and they claim to believe in the words of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

I've been a nasty missionary and have made more than one little ladyboy cry from frustration of me refusing to accept her muslim faith... and to challenge her theological approach...

As Fey wisely said to me: darling, why do you ALWAYS have to challenge my faith... I'm not a terrorist... why do you dislike muslims that much?

Well, maybe because muslims seem to have a love for killing things... just like right wing Republican Americans...

No, ofcourse Fey was right, and in complete fairness, I've only met completely nice and very non-violent people here in muslim Indonesia. So I've had to take my anti-muslim approach a little bit up for reconsideration. Not that I love the way, but fair is square. And I don't want to be an asshole that makes little muslim ladyboys cry because of my hateful remarks.

I admit that I cannot truly trust Islam - the muslims have too much blood on their hands for me to truly consider that religion particularly peaceful. And my problem is that moderate muslims never REALLY opposed the fanatics enough... they seemed to either ignore them, try to excuse them or silently approve of their actions.

I don't think in all fairness that Islam is particularly "good news" for democracy.

But I don't think Geo Bush was either...

Nasty...

Barack Obama is.

Hanky Panky

[Rambam]

the muslims have too much blood on their hands for me to truly consider that religion particularly peaceful

what about some American presidents with their governments?
They all wanted to be Good Christians, but many of them have been war-monger. And by the way, the Islam has his foundations in the Christian faith

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Rambam

the muslims have too much blood on their hands for me to truly consider that religion particularly peaceful

what about some American presidents with their governments?
They all wanted to be Good Christians, but many of them have been war-monger. And by the way, the Islam has his foundations in the Christian faith

Muslim and Islam are two different things. Muslim has its foumdations in Christianity; Islam doesn't. A true Muslim is peaceful and recognizes Christianity and Judiasm as "Brothers of the Word" aka Holy Scriptues. Get it right.

[Rambam]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

Muslim and Islam are two different things. Muslim has its foumdations in Christianity; Islam doesn't. A true Muslim is peaceful and recognizes Christianity and Judiasm as "Brothers of the Word" aka Holy Scriptues. Get it right.

two different things who told that shit to you, mate? where do you coming from? USA?
ok ok, then I understand

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Rambam

two different things who told that shit to you, mate? where do you coming from? USA?
ok ok, then I understand

I take that back. For some reason I was thinking about a chimpanzee riding on a segway when I posted this. My bad.

[The Conquistador]

I was distracted by this!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xp9Gm-aRe5A

Damn Chimps and their Segways!

[smc]

Hank wrote this a long time ago, so perhaps he has realized how wrong he is to single out one religion.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

I admit that I cannot truly trust Islam - the muslims have too much blood on their hands for me to truly consider that religion particularly peaceful.

Without going into a long discourse on history, one need only consider the Crusades, when Christian military expeditions were launched by the Church. While there is certainly an argument to be made that the Crusades were political imperialism in the guise of religious piety, it is nevertheless the case that they unleashed violence of an order of magnitude that eclipses even what we typically think of as the medieval "standard" (i.e., tremendously brutal).

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

[twistedone]

BACK OFF!! on the right wing Republican slam will you?

I'm one, and I abhor killing anyone, or anything. Except when it is necessary to preserve life and liberty.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

This was misplaced in another thread. It belongs here:

The Lord be praised! Find me the place in scripture where Jesus Christ condemned transsexuality...

Don't bother to try to find it...

I'm christian, and I do believe in the good message of Jesus Christ.

Most of my trans*lovers have been muslim, and they claim to believe in the words of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

I've been a nasty missionary and have made more than one little ladyboy cry from frustration of me refusing to accept her muslim faith... and to challenge her theological approach...

As Fey wisely said to me: darling, why do you ALWAYS have to challenge my faith... I'm not a terrorist... why do you dislike muslims that much?

Well, maybe because muslims seem to have a love for killing things... just like right wing Republican Americans...

No, ofcourse Fey was right, and in complete fairness, I've only met completely nice and very non-violent people here in muslim Indonesia. So I've had to take my anti-muslim approach a little bit up for reconsideration. Not that I love the way, but fair is square. And I don't want to be an asshole that makes little muslim ladyboys cry because of my hateful remarks.

I admit that I cannot truly trust Islam - the muslims have too much blood on their hands for me to truly consider that religion particularly peaceful. And my problem is that moderate muslims never REALLY opposed the fanatics enough... they seemed to either ignore them, try to excuse them or silently approve of their actions.

I don't think in all fairness that Islam is particularly "good news" for democracy.

But I don't think Geo Bush was either...

Nasty...

Barack Obama is.

Hanky Panky

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by twistedone

BACK OFF!! on the right wing Republican slam will you?

I'm one, and I abhor killing anyone, or anything. Except when it is necessary to preserve life and liberty.

Why should I "back off", honey? Because you dislike my point? You're welcome to take me on... but please do it with a minimal degree of "good humour" :-)

[cheersm8]

Am I missing something here? What a laughable thread!! What has religion got to do with sexuality? Each is as unimportant to the other as a motor car maintainance manual and a cookery book.
Makes me think of the kind of rubbish I used to see when I used mirc years ago, chat with someone in a cybersex channel and the 1st question they ask you is - 'are you a muslim/hindu/catholic/jew?'
I do feel sort of sorry though, for those people to whom religion has been bashed into their skulls with a big hammer, from such an early age, that it takes priority over EVERYTHING they do.


ps: to hankhavelock - Carry on with your posts, I can see that you are on a perpetual wind up, and like to throw out random bait to the forum and see what you can catch. kind of like fishing, from the comfort of your own living room.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by cheersm8

ps: to hankhavelock - Carry on with your posts, I can see that you are on a perpetual wind up, and like to throw out random bait to the forum and see what you can catch. kind of like fishing, from the comfort of your own living room.

Hehe... it's actually not THAT random... if you check me out you'll find a coherent attact on the ultra right, which I consider one of the ugliest things going on nowadays. You'll also find a close to militant defense of trans*rights.

That's my story, and I stick to it :-) I may be fishing, I may, indeed, be a bit provocative, but I do have a rather strict political and VERY liberal agenda :-)

H

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

Islam and Christianity are both fucked up and dangerous religions, so is Judaism.

And what do you expect when the major prophet that they have in common and each claim to be the originator of thier creed is Abraham, (hence why they are groups as the Abrahamic religions) the guy who was chosen by thier god to deliver his message because of his willingness to murder his own kid.

When the holy man you look up to is a man who was ready to MURDER HIS OWN CHILD, you know you have a fucked up religion.

All I have to say to the followers of all 3 of those religions is your god is an abhorrent joke.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by cheersm8

Am I missing something here? What a laughable thread!! What has religion got to do with sexuality? Each is as unimportant to the other as a motor car maintainance manual and a cookery book.
Makes me think of the kind of rubbish I used to see when I used mirc years ago, chat with someone in a cybersex channel and the 1st question they ask you is - 'are you a muslim/hindu/catholic/jew?'
I do feel sort of sorry though, for those people to whom religion has been bashed into their skulls with a big hammer, from such an early age, that it takes priority over EVERYTHING they do.


ps: to hankhavelock - Carry on with your posts, I can see that you are on a perpetual wind up, and like to throw out random bait to the forum and see what you can catch. kind of like fishing, from the comfort of your own living room.

Unfortunately, it is religion that is used as justification for or the root behind so many of the issues that Trans* folks have to deal with. Religion, particularly the political and cultural influences of Christianity and Islam in the history of the world wrt Trans and gay people is a very valid topic.

Lets look at Thailand - Kathoey: an ancient understanding that some boys are really a "third gender". Before colonization by Christian Europeans they had a standing in society and place within their communities. Then came "crimes against nature" ala Christian missionaries and their political counterparts the Colonial Governors. Suddenly, while socially accepted, they kathoey were/are highly discriminated against legally with the resulting prejudices that invariably trickle down to the social level. Even more drastic is the Hijra in India and more pronounced still is the near erasure of two-spirit people among Native Americans.

[cheersm8]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Unfortunately, it is religion that is used as justification for or the root behind so many of the issues that Trans* folks have to deal with. Religion, particularly the political and cultural influences of Christianity and Islam in the history of the world wrt Trans and gay people is a very valid topic.

Lets look at Thailand - Kathoey: an ancient understanding that some boys are really a "third gender". Before colonization by Christian Europeans they had a standing in society and place within their communities. Then came "crimes against nature" ala Christian missionaries and their political counterparts the Colonial Governors. Suddenly, while socially accepted, they kathoey were/are highly discriminated against legally with the resulting prejudices that invariably trickle down to the social level. Even more drastic is the Hijra in India and more pronounced still is the near erasure of two-spirit people among Native Americans.

Thanks for the reply Bionca, and I fully understand and sympathise with the points that you have made.
Maybe I did not phrase my original post correctly. My response was on a personal level, not a political one. For me, if I fancy someone, whether they be male, female, trans, or even 'unclassified' then that individuals religous beliefs and/or background, don't mean a thing to me. I simply have not allowed religion to be a deciding factor in my life in any way.

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by cheersm8

Am I missing something here? What a laughable thread!! What has religion got to do with sexuality? Each is as unimportant to the other as a motor car maintainance manual and a cookery book.
Makes me think of the kind of rubbish I used to see when I used mirc years ago, chat with someone in a cybersex channel and the 1st question they ask you is - 'are you a muslim/hindu/catholic/jew?'
I do feel sort of sorry though, for those people to whom religion has been bashed into their skulls with a big hammer, from such an early age, that it takes priority over EVERYTHING they do.


ps: to hankhavelock - Carry on with your posts, I can see that you are on a perpetual wind up, and like to throw out random bait to the forum and see what you can catch. kind of like fishing, from the comfort of your own living room.

Religion has always laid claim to be the authority on any natural process or phenomenon in order to reinforce its power base and hold over adherents.

I had a strictly ' religious ' upbringing, but the secular education process enabled me to have a broader perspective on the many of the values that various religions lay claim to. At the end of the day, and without wanting to give offence to fellow forum members, while Religion appears to be a need fundamental to the human condition ( Karl Marx, excepted ), for the most part religions appear to be ill-conceived synthetic constructs, heavily flawed by many philosphical processes.

Worship should come from within.

and if that gives you a , why then, bless you !

[liesjeversteven]

I don't want to step on sensitive toes here, but EVERY religion is dangerous! Be it Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, right wing republicanism, or whatever, they all have one thing in common: they are all convinced they have a monopoly on the truth, and that is one of the most dangerous things in the world.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

[Bush] has in general made it considerably harder to be a Westener anywhere in the world.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

I'm christian, and I do believe in the good message of Jesus Christ.

Most of my trans*lovers have been muslim, and they claim to believe in the words of Muhammad, peace be upon him.

Maybe that's why it's hard for you to live in Indonesia. They see you thumping the bible just as hard as Bush does and so in their eyes they group you in with everything he stands for.

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

The Lord be praised! Find me the place in scripture where Jesus Christ condemned transsexuality...

Condemned it? He embraced it!