Middle East

[randolph]

By Ian Flecher

The revolts in the Middle East, however they ultimately turn out, are a stunning repudiation of the Bush Doctrine.
President Bush, if you recall, told us that our ultimate aim in invading places like Iraq and Afghanistan was to transition these and similar nations to democracy. Because making the world democratic was, supposedly, the only ultimately reliable way to make them friendly to us and thus keep us secure.
The problem, of course, is that even if democracy is a good thing, shoving it down somebody's throat at gunpoint is extremely likely to make them gag--simply because someone is shoving it down their throat.

The dramatic events in the Middle East demonstrate how our policies of supporting authoritarian regimes while spouting democracy is ultimately counter productive. If Egypt goes the way of Iran we are going to be in deep s--t. Saudi Arabia may be next.

[The Conquistador]

Turn the Middle East into one giant glass parking lot.

[smc]

You cannot speak of U.S. policy with respect to any particular Arab regime without putting it in the context of Israel. Egypt and Mubarak are "allies" of the United States only in exchange for being a bulwark against Arab League opposition to Israel. Meanwhile, each and every authoritarian Arab regime stokes the fires of passion for the Palestinian cause on the streets of their own countries (and in Iran, too) precisely because so long as people in the Arab world have this issue before them, they can be easily manipulated to avoid confronting the roots of their own oppression -- namely, their own dictators (and, in many cases, the U.S. government that backs, to greater or lesser degrees, those regimes).

Solve the Palestinian "problem" and these Arab regimes will collapse like houses of cards.

And lest anyone get the wrong impression of my view of Israel, this Jew (yes, I am Jewish) believes it has no legitimate claim to exist as a country, and that Zionism (the political ideology) is, in fact, the main progenitor of anti-Semitism in the world today.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by smc

You cannot speak of U.S. policy with respect to any particular Arab regime without putting it in the context of Israel. Egypt and Mubarak are "allies" of the United States only in exchange for being a bulwark against Arab League opposition to Israel. Meanwhile, each and every authoritarian Arab regime stokes the fires of passion for the Palestinian cause on the streets of their own countries (and in Iran, too) precisely because so long as people in the Arab world have this issue before them, they can be easily manipulated to avoid confronting the roots of their own oppression -- namely, their own dictators (and, in many cases, the U.S. government that backs, to greater or lesser degrees, those regimes).

Solve the Palestinian "problem" and these Arab regimes will collapse like houses of cards.

And lest anyone get the wrong impression of my view of Israel, this Jew (yes, I am Jewish) believes it has no legitimate claim to exist as a country, and that Zionism (the political ideology) is, in fact, the main progenitor of anti-Semitism in the world today.

The Palestinian question is no doubt a major issue in the Middle East. However, the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt seem to have little to do with Palestine. They are grassroots frustrations with the youths in these countries with the lack of opportunities for a decent life in an open society.
Also, it appears that some of these regimes are falling without dealing with the Palestinian problem.
Let's hope that responsible leaders come forward to lead the uprisings. Otherwise, We could have more Taliban style fundamentalist, anti West governments to deal with. For years we have been pouring billions of dollars into Egypt to try to keep the lid on things. So much for that policy.

[smc]

Originally Posted by randolph

The Palestinian question is no doubt a major issue in the Middle East. However, the uprisings in Tunisia and Egypt seem to have little to do with Palestine. They are grassroots frustrations with the youths in these countries with the lack of opportunities for a decent life in an open society.
Also, it appears that some of these regimes are falling without dealing with the Palestinian problem.
Let's hope that responsible leaders come forward to lead the uprisings. Otherwise, We could have more Taliban style fundamentalist, anti West governments to deal with. For years we have been pouring billions of dollars into Egypt to try to keep the lid on things. So much for that policy.

I said "U.S. policy" -- which is what you wrote of in your initial post. Further, I stated that the Palestinian question has been used to keep Arabs focused on something other than their own regimes; this does not mean that they are incapable of so focusing, as the uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, and Yemen demonstrate.

In Egypt specifically, while the demonstrators clamor for human rights, economic justice, and so on, the position of their government -- i.e., its power, the arms it posses thanks to billions in U.S. military aid each year, etc. -- are directly linked to the Palestinian question.

So, they cannot be teased apart so simply.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by smc

I said "U.S. policy" -- which is what you wrote of in your initial post. Further, I stated that the Palestinian question has been used to keep Arabs focused on something other than their own regimes; this does not mean that they are incapable of so focusing, as the uprisings in Tunisia, Egypt, and Yemen demonstrate.

In Egypt specifically, while the demonstrators clamor for human rights, economic justice, and so on, the position of their government -- i.e., its power, the arms it posses thanks to billions in U.S. military aid each year, etc. -- are directly linked to the Palestinian question.

So, they cannot be teased apart so simply.

No question the Middle east is a sea of complex issues. I suspect we desperately want Mubarak to hang in there. If he bails it will provide a powerful motivation for the youth in other Middle East countries to rise up.
Did we ever realize that the cellphone, facebook and the internet would replace our foreign policy?
"Power to the people!"

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by smc

You cannot speak of U.S. policy with respect to any particular Arab regime without putting it in the context of Israel. Egypt and Mubarak are "allies" of the United States only in exchange for being a bulwark against Arab League opposition to Israel. Meanwhile, each and every authoritarian Arab regime stokes the fires of passion for the Palestinian cause on the streets of their own countries (and in Iran, too) precisely because so long as people in the Arab world have this issue before them, they can be easily manipulated to avoid confronting the roots of their own oppression -- namely, their own dictators (and, in many cases, the U.S. government that backs, to greater or lesser degrees, those regimes).

Solve the Palestinian "problem" and these Arab regimes will collapse like houses of cards.

And lest anyone get the wrong impression of my view of Israel, this Jew (yes, I am Jewish) believes it has no legitimate claim to exist as a country, and that
Zionism (the political ideology) is, in fact, the main progenitor of anti-Semitism
in the world today.

C'mon smc! What is so wrong about the Jews having some beachfront property?

It's interesting that you bring up the effects that Israel and Zionism have had on the Middle East. It seems that before the emergence of the Hebrew state in the Middle East(pre-1940's), it was a pretty cool and adventureous place to visit. After reading the works of T.E. Lawrence and others who chronicled their trips to the Middle East, there was no mention of Jihadism, radical Islam, anti-Semitism or anti-western sentiment. It seems all that came about after the the foundation of Israel and was a response to the spread of Zionism in the region.

I am neither for nor against the Jews. This is purely my observation.

[randolph]

He took us 40 years through the desert in order to bring us to the one spot in the Middle East that has no oil!

Golda Meir.

If the Arabs had no oil, they would still be herding sheep and being camel jockeys. Opposition to israel would have been minimal. Its oil that's made the Middle East a hot bed of policical turmoil. Would we have poured billions of dollars into the Middle East if there was no oil there?
We would have treated the area much as we have much of Africa and other areas without the resources we want.

[Trogdor]

To me, I say stay out of it. I say if the Egyptians want that guy out of there, I say go for it. And given the fact that the government cut off the internet (which the US government better not do if its citizens get angry) and are defying the curfew that has been set.....they are still telling the government to fuck off and want that guy out of there. This is history in the making, folks. People are always complaining about their government, these folks are actually doing something about it.

And I say let the Jews and the Muslims fight each other, and may the best side win....of Israel gets rubbed off the map, that's just too bad....I think Israel has been nothing but trouble since the beginning (I got nothing against the Jews, but when you're stuck in the middle of an Arab land and stick out like a sore thumb, someone's gonna take notice...which is the problem. Also, manly orthodox Jews I know said that the real holy land will be created by their own messiah) And you wanna keep the Middle East from getting insanely powerful from oil....then it's long overdue for something other than that overrated black crud for fuel, oil's to useful (though I am a huge believer of the avionic oil theory) to be burnt.

[SluttyShemaleAnna]

Originally Posted by randolph

Golda Meir.

If the Arabs had no oil, they would still be herding sheep and being camel jockeys. Opposition to israel would have been minimal. Its oil that's made the Middle East a hot bed of policical turmoil. Would we have poured billions of dollars into the Middle East if there was no oil there?
We would have treated the area much as we have much of Africa and other areas without the resources we want.

Oh yes? Africa, that great bastion of political stability...

Political tensions in the middle east have as much to do with the proxy wars as they do oil. The USA supported Saddam because he killed communists, they also supported the Shah in Iran for the same reason. The Shah was overthrown by a popular uprising, and so the US encouraged Saddam to go to war with them, this war helps the already dominant Islamist faction within Iran consolidate power and they crush the last of the socialists and other progressives that were part of the overthrow of the Shah, rewriting history calling the revolution, the Islamic Revolution. Meanwhile, Saddam is left penniless after fighting the USAs war for them, so he invades Kuwait for the oil wonga. In Afghanistan I'm sure you all know what went on there, I'm sure you all get a good chuckle like I do when you see The Living Daylights or Rambo 3, seeing Bond and Rambo hanging out with thier bestest buddies the Mujahideen. :P trying to use religious fanatics for a proxy war is probably the only thing dumber than propping up tinpot dictators.

Anyway, lets just hope that Tunisa and Egypt come out good from this and don't end up just getting new repressive rulers like Iran did after the Shah was overthrown.

p.s. neither Tunisia or Egypt are middle eastern, they are African.

[smc]

Originally Posted by The Conquistador

C'mon smc! What is so wrong about the Jews having some beachfront property?

It's interesting that you bring up the effects that Israel and Zionism have had on the Middle East. It seems that before the emergence of the Hebrew state in the Middle East(pre-1940's), it was a pretty cool and adventureous place to visit. After reading the works of T.E. Lawrence and others who chronicled their trips to the Middle East, there was no mention of Jihadism, radical Islam, anti-Semitism or anti-western sentiment. It seems all that came about after the the foundation of Israel and was a response to the spread of Zionism in the region.

I am neither for nor against the Jews. This is purely my observation.

Being against Zionism has nothing to do with being against Jews. It's the Zionists who deliberately confound the two because it serves their interests. Think of how much easier it is to win sympathy when you can cry "anti-Semite" at those who oppose Zionism, as opposed to if it was always clear that it was about colonialism and oppression.

Zionism is the main cause of anti-Semitism in the world today. And that statement comes from a Jew.

[randolph]

Well, the news from Washington amply demonstrates the hypocrisy of our foreign policy. Obama talked Democracy on his trip to the Middle east, now it's the "D" word. No body in Washington is talking Democracy. Everybody is holding their breath and hoping the uprisings will blow over and we can keep our authoritarian buddies happy. The uprisings are an early warning, our policies are doing nothing but encouraging radical Islam. We will ultimately pay a very high price for our hypocrisy.

[shehim]

i bilieve that the usa and Europe should stop this hypocrasy when dealing with the arabic east dectatorship and tyrany regiems in one hand they talk day and nigfht about human rights and wemen rights and all thies beautifull princiblies but in the other hand they support with all the power they have experied dectators belonging to the middle ages ,like qaddafi and all those kings and princes in the gulf,we should see things not just from our intrests or from the eyes of israel but also from the real human rights bases

[smc]

Originally Posted by shehim

i bilieve that the usa and Europe should stop this hypocrasy when dealing with the arabic east dectatorship and tyrany regiems in one hand they talk day and nigfht about human rights and wemen rights and all thies beautifull princiblies but in the other hand they support with all the power they have experied dectators belonging to the middle ages ,like qaddafi and all those kings and princes in the gulf,we should see things not just from our intrests or from the eyes of israel but also from the real human rights bases

I could not agree more!

[randolph]

Originally Posted by shehim

i bilieve that the usa and Europe should stop this hypocrasy when dealing with the arabic east dectatorship and tyrany regiems in one hand they talk day and nigfht about human rights and wemen rights and all thies beautifull princiblies but in the other hand they support with all the power they have experied dectators belonging to the middle ages ,like qaddafi and all those kings and princes in the gulf,we should see things not just from our intrests or from the eyes of israel but also from the real human rights bases

There is an old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". That is our foreign policy in a nutshell.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

There is an old saying "The enemy of my enemy is my friend". That is our foreign policy in a nutshell.

True randolf. What is Obama's foreign policy though? I'm not being a smartass, I really can't tell.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

True randolf. What is Obama's foreign policy though? I'm not being a smartass, I really can't tell.

Hey Tracy I'm back! Thanks for the complement.

I can't tell either. Hillary and Obama are being extremely wishywashy regarding this Egyptian uprising. It must be incredibly embarassing to preach Democracy and then waffle when the people demand it.
Osam bin laden (if he is still alive) must be delighted. However, I think there is a good chance that Egypt can become an open Democratic society and resist Islamic fundamentalism. The behavior of most of the protesters suggest that.

[Be_my_nude]

The state of affairs which has occurred again and again over the years was succinctly summarised by shehim in the following post :

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showpo...1&postcount=34

As has already been observed, the hiatus which follows either war or revolution invariably leads to a crisis or a succession of crises exploitable by any sufficiently ruthless extremist group to install their own ideological dictator or oligarchy. This was starkly the the case following the Allied occupation and redefinition of Palestine in the aftermath of the Second World War. Sadly there was no available Arabic representation in reaching the ' refoundation ' of a Jewish State in the Middle East, a decision designed to relieve the acute European refugee problem while at the same time inserting a pro-West long-term power base in the area.

It seems that the growth of extreme ' Islamism ' increase exponentially from that point.

Now I am no Historian, but I suspect that Arabs are a lot more capable of handling their own affairs and interstate relationships than many politicians in the West would have us believe.

The only way to find out is to ' suck it and see ' and assist Arab states in developing economies other than Oil, while keeping a neutral posture over the existence of Israel.

This will require really true Statesmanship from all concerned.