"Real Girls"
 

I'm really not fond of non-trans women being called "real" girls, or for that matter trans women being referred to in the feminine with quotes around the pronouns - Like:

I really had a good time with a hot "girl" from the local tranny bar. "She" was pretty and looked like a real girl until "she" got naked.

Aside from the obvious trivializing of my identity and the stuff I had to go through and endure; it's dangerous. Seriously dangerous - Angie Zapata's murderer told the cops "I had to hit it" - Angie wasn't a woman..she wasn't even a person. To a lesser degree, I have been with at least 5 guys who at some post let me know that they were done with me because they liked "real girls". One of them minutes after he talked me (begged is probably a better term) into giving it up for him. I was in bed when he got that stupid awkward look on his face and said "wow you were really hot - but I like the real thing".

I could point out the purely physical stuff and say that they are "feminine" or "womanly" - but really, I was as much a woman before I ever laid eyes on hormones or a skirt or some eyeliner so that whole "femininity" thing doesn't really prove anything - I'd be a chick if I stopped shaving my legs and wore a suit - it's who I am not what I'm wearing.

I think the part that stinks for me (and probably most Trans* folks) is me transitioning was me being 100% authentic - ultimately honest with myself and the world. When that honesty is called dishonest it hurts.

Jeez, Bionca, real + $5.00 = $5.00

When it comes to sex, all men are pigs, every "real" woman knows that. If you go to the trans bar I guarantee you can get fucked every night. You need to find a guy you really like. If it's real it's real. Even Librarians have sex.

You have a really good head on your shoulders but you're like a broken record with this Mr. Wrong mantra. Maybe you think you deserve more than the regular person sexually because of all the crap you've been through. Make peace with your parents and find the guy thats looking for a girl like you
-Jim Landers

Happend to me awhile ago, A guy i met beat the crap outta me when he found out i wasn't a "real girl" When i tried to report it i got a rude awaking from the "real cop" when he found out i was transgendered he said it was my fault for teasing the poor guy and he had every right to smack me around and he hoped i learned my lesson and refused to file a report, :no: Jennifer

I am so glad I live in a country tolerant enough that the Law Enforcement actually upholds the law equally for everyone.

so bad
 

:(I'm so sorry to hear that Jen,it is a really sad inditement on todays socierty.It's the 21st century and attitudes are still the same as they have been for 1000's of years,regarding race,gender whatever,the human race is still a bunch of small minded,self serving bunch of c****.
I wish there was something positive that i could say,but folks is folks,they are not going to change.
Next time rip the bastards nuts off and dispose of the body,you would be better off.
Take care,ony:)

Wow, Bionca - thanks for speaking out. Your words really had an impact on me. I believe I truly understand what you mean and how you feel. You make so much sense - I really hope you have challenged all of us on here.

Thank you.

TransJen, how insecure was that creep??!! How utterly pathetic he should think he was better than you by beating the crap out of you.
Makes me feel sick to the stomach!
A pathetic, losing creep who is too weak to face up to his feelings.

As for the police, my God... We have along way to go in this world..

Inane sh*t Jim. Where on earth did you get that idea?
Ah, from the women you know.
I won't use the 'generalisation' word.
Damn. Whaddya know. I have. :cool:

female?
 

If I was hitting on a woman in a bar, I would want to know if she was transsexual right away, not after we got into bed. If she was transexual, I would not lose interest, in fact it would excite me, I like mystery.
I would love to have an experience with a beautiful transsexual woman. Yes, I would love to love her like a woman and suck her female cock. Biologically, Its basically a very well developed clitty. :drool::inlove:

:rolleyes:

Yeah, Canada's such a utopia!

Last time I was in Windsor, Canada, it made Detroit look like a tolerant place.

Seriously, cops are all assholes. The only cop I've ever met who's actually a nice guy is my probation officer, but he's a retired cop ... I think he's just trying to make up for having been an asshole in the 90's.

A cop refusing the file a police report for you? That's nothing. Last time I got arrested he did file a report, and it was totally full of lies.

Forum
 

It's a forum Jim. A place to rant and rave. The broken record crack sounds hurtful. As do the next 2 lines.

Hurtful? This is High School 101.
EVERY GIRL IS GOING TO BE JUDGED
In High School, there was one #1 girl. Prom Queen, Homecoming Princess.
Great breeding, genes. The perfect wife and mother. She would go on to marry the quarterback or Mayor's son and never let him down.
And then there's #6, #25, #268. This is how guys think from prehistoric times. Being a woman is no picnic.
As far as cops go, they peel people off windshields in horrible traffic accidents, that's why they don't like speeders and drunks. They also go to very painful domestic violence incidents with children screwed for life because of idiot parents. All cops are big on FAMILY.
No disrespect for Bionca. I probably misunderstood her post anyway.

Hello Bionca,

All to often myself and my fellow men open our big fat mouths and shove our feet into them simply because we are being selfish, ignorant jerks. Is it any excuse, no, and there is no excuse for it and never will be. You are a very courageous woman and a very beautiful one at that. I can't say when but one day you will find the right man for you. I can only hope that I will one day find a beautiful, courageous woman like yourself.

Sincerely
Michael

p.s. I mean it sincerely when I say you are a very beautiful woman.

Oh yes, of course, how could I forget. Every cop is an asshole. No exceptions. Silly me.

As for Windsor, I would say that's because they have thier own police force. In Canada, there are city cops, which only have jurisdiction in their own city limits, and there are the RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police) Which have jurisdiction anywhere that's Canadian soil. In my experiance, city police tend to have more assholes on their payroll, and the RCMP tend to be more tolerant. Either way though, I've never had any real difficulties with the police. Canada really is quite tolerant. We're one of the few countries that allow same-sex marriage, and the Canadian Forces medical plan will pay for SRS for soldiers that wish to transition. Seriously, you can't get much more tolerant than that!

:hug::hug: <-----This is what Bianca needs

Whoa! Maybe I should move to Canada.

Seriously, in the US cops really are totally corrupt. I have a friend who went to the police academy, and another friend who works for the highway patrol, and to hear them talk it's actually worse than you'd ever think.

Last time I got pulled over for speeding, the cop called me ma'am then noticed it said "Sex: M" on my license ... and let's just say things went downhill fast.

In the US we even have laws that you can't sue the police. If a cop runs into you, your insurance has to pay for it. I've talked to several lawyers who said they hear the most fucked up stuff all the time, and normally it would be easy to win a lawsuit for discrimination, sexual harrassment, or even assault, but if it was the police doing it they'll flat out tell you that there's no way you can win in court unless you were seriously injured by the police and went straight to the ER and filed a report.

I would have filed a report anyways, against the cop. Then raised holy hell with the press and anyone else I could to embarrass the cop and the police force. There is absolutely NO justification for anyone to beat the crap out of anyone. PERIOD!!

This is exactly what I was trying to bring up. The idea that we are either not "real"/valid women or our intention is one of deception fuels so much emotional and physical distress and even abuse for us. Unfortunaely, so much of the sex industry that makes money off of Trans* bodies uses this same language and imagery. I don't expect porn to be anything more than a means to make money... on the other hand, are amputee fetish sites billed as "hot gimp action"? or is the tag line "He thought she had a leg until the pants came off. - Crip Deception at it's finest."

It isn't so much that guys dump me for chicks that cane give them babies, it's that these guys feel they are justified to deny my identity and/or feel like my honesty is actually deception (always after I've given up the goods).

Time For A New Bionca Avatar Photo
 

BIONCA:

Jen is a peach, but she has unintentionally left out from her first telling that she was making-out w/ the guy, and accepted going to his place. Drinking may have been involved. When they continued in private, he finally went into her panties, and things changed when he found a sausage and not a donut.

I agree that she should have been able to file a complaint, BTW.

Care to add a sentence or two w/ this wrinkle involved?


Piece,


TAL

1st, why do you hate being braver than the guys you date? It will be your bravery that will change the world.
Sorry about your being beaten up, been there. Only I was beaten up by five guys who did not like the attention I got from their girlfriends. I was new to the area,had long hair and enjoyed being 'cool'. No I wasn't gay nor was I a fem-boy. Just different. That that out of the way, and forgive my ignorance, But what 'title(s)' do shemales give to 1)natural born women, 2)the 'straight' community/world, & 3)....sorry, lost my train of thought. I do that at times because I think faster than I type. Anyway, people are either assholes or not. Don't ever let the world beat you down. The strength shemales display shows through everyday by merely keeping on. The conviction shown through the operations, doing the everyday chores in public, helping others with their problems while still living with your own, shows lessons the rest of the world should learn. Those,my dear lady, are only a few of the reasons why I am a new admirer to your 'world'. NB

The guy may have been disappointed or even downright pissed off, however that is no reason to smack around anyone. Assault is still assault and as far as I know it is illegal to assault anyone in the U.S.

The police are there to take action against criminal acts and in Jen's case the cop should have taken action. If the cop took no action then he should have been charged under the applicable law for not doing his duty. All persons are equal under the law so it should not matter who the parties are that are involved. Police are not judges so they have no right to decide who will be afforded protection under the law.

The same thing happened to me several years back. He probably would've beaten me to death if his neighbor hadn't come out to see what all the noise was.

:respect: I couldn't agree more.

Oh, so just because he was dissapointed that gives him every right to beat her. Seriously, if a guy is dissapointed with his date (whether TG or GG) after he takes her home; he should simply escort her to the door, not beat her senseless.

Ila & Lust
 

I did not say he had the right to beat up anybody.

I made no comment on it at all.

I left that open for Bianca to comment.

I don't believe anyone has the right to beat up anyone else for most reasons. To clarify, there are exceptions, like if your life is threatened and you have no other choice.

Please, both of you, ask B4 jumping to conclusions.


Piece,


TAL

I didn't say that you said anyone had the right to beat up anyone else. I quoted your post as you had asked for comments and had I not quoted it there could have been confusion as to what I was referring to in my post.

Happy Birthday, Me Too
 

ILA:

Sorry.


TAL

Maybe the surest way to find out if a guy really wants to get it on and not want to beat the tar out of anyone, is when he shows an interest in a shemale (ask him in a very public place,and in a joking term) what would he do if a guy wanted to swap spit with him. His expression or answer might just tell you what you need to know. A few of your friends nearby might help.

Here we go i met the guy at a pool hall that my friends and i stoped at to play pool, The guy took a liking to me and we started chatting he smeaned very nice and wanted to shoot a game with me and i agreed, My friend who drove me there had to leave so i said ok, The guy then offered to drive me home if i wanted to stay longer and i aggreed to finish the game, We left the pool hall got in his car and he asked where i lived and asked if i minded if he stops by his place first because he had something to attend to, So we stoped at his place and he invited me in we sat down and talked some more then he kissed me and started feeling me up I started backing off then and he got on top of me and that's when his hand reached into my panties and all hell broke loose he started smacking me and calling me a GD FA:censored:IT , I kneed him in his sack then made a run for it and ran to a 7-ELEVEN where i called the cops, When he got there i told him what happend and he then asked why the guy called me a fa:censored:it when i told him everything changed he nolonger cared what happend to me. Now a few people said i should have went to the police chief and the papers, I decided against for two reasons if i filed a complaimt agianst the cop i would have then been a big target for every cop in the area and going to the papers whould have told the world i'm transgendered at the time i was 22 years old and was only living full time for 4 months so i just learned a big leason and moved on with my life :yes: Jennifer

Pretending that I hadn't read Jen's reply above - no I wouldn't have added anything. The reason for the assult was the same - she was perceived by her attacker as not being a "real" woman at best, an intentional deceiver at worst. The reaction of the cop implying that he assumed she was being deceptive, thus bringing the violence on herself. This line of reasoning is caled the "gay/trans panic" defence and is quite popular because it works to get men (who have often had continued relations with trans*women) off the hook or reduced sentences for violence/murder of trans*women and gay men (see Angie Zapata and Matthew Shepherd).

I know you aren't tryng to say that violence is justified, but so often people - even other trans*folks will assume that a gal wasn't being honest about her status, denounce the violence, then say she kinda had it comming anyway. I wonder what the public's reaction would be if women started beating the snot out of men who lied about their cock size...

Wrong Story
 

JEN:

I thought you meant this other story from a week ago. Sorry, I was referring to the other story.

My first time as Jennifer was not fun, I meet a guy at a party and he didn't know i wasn't all female and he put the moves on me and stupid me i went back to his apartment where we necked for awhile and he started feeling me up but when he slid his hand up my skirt he found out i was still a male and he wasn't very happy i think you can see where this is going and he smacked me around before he up my ass, Needless to say i didn't enjoy it at all Jennifer


Piece,


TAL

I hate being braver than the guys date because *I* get to catch crap while they are hidden from view. I'm daling with being trans all day every day, the guys seem to bail at the first hint that their friends may suspect (for example). You do bring up a few good questions...

1) if a distinction needs to be made cis (non-trans) is good, "GG" for Genetic Girl works, I personally like "Natal Women".
2) "the strait world" works. Alsom lots of trans women go "stealth" and just live in the "strait world" as women, so "home" would also work.

I don't like seeming like I'm constantly down on you guys. When you take the time time to try to "get it", you become special and wonderful. So many of the guys who post here have/are at least trying to "get it" and I don't think I express anough how much I appreciate that. I wouldn't still be posting here if it wasn't the case.

Well, the parents are a no-go. Once I grew some boobs they made it very clear they didn't want a daughter and haven't returned any attempts to communicate. I'm living SECRETLY with my brother because he's afraid that they will freak out on him too and (for whatever reason) wants to have active grandparents for his kid. Last I heard they didn't even have any pictures of me on the wall in the house *shrug*

Also, I only look for guys looking for gals like me. I have no desire to have that type of conversation with someone - one of the reasons I still only go dancing at gay clubs, won't date guys from work, give guys who ask a fake phone number ... I have no reason to trust that some random dude who hits on me isn't going to freak out (even if he says he doesn't care).

I'm not a woman in a man's body, but a couple years ago I did find out I have a malfunctioning pitutitary gland, which kind of puts me in the soup.
As kids, we had a pact not to let our parents know anything that would lead to doctors or drama.
I still don't understand why guys looking for girls like you would be dismissive or whatever with you, even after they've shot their load. What's not to like?
I really do appreciate your patience and understanding, I'm sure you have all the problems that life comes with as well as a few more. Some of my favorite weekends have gotten me beaten up, confused, broke, and very very tired.
Hope this Kwissmuss finds everyone a little closer to God, wherever that is......

I've often noticed that guys here- and on other internet forums as well- don't seem to care about how they treat t-girls. They're no more than objects of desire to them, why bother treating them as humans with feelings? That really annoys me.

As for Transjen: do you live in the US? If so, geez... there's a lot of work left to get your country out of the sexual Dark Ages. And judging by some people's responses I doubt if it'll ever happen.

Guys on this site
 

There is one thing i have noticed while being on this site,most of the guys who post here are just here for the fact that thy like to get off over shemales,for want of a better word,there seems to be no respect,just complete lust.

transitioning
 

Dear Bionca,
I really appreciate your comments and the comments by Fran and other Tgirls. I must admit I joined this forum to look at shemale images and feel horney. I imagined that transexuals were somehow more sexually endowed than genetic women. I had no idea that transitioning was so difficult and even dangerous, in addition to the loss of family support. I am sure you have heard the old story that when God created man he didn't provide enough blood to run the brain and penis at the same time.
I hope you will soon find the love you deserve.
Take care.:respect::hug:

Language can be insensitive, but I think people should be allowed to draw a distinction without taking heat. It's just a matter of using the terms in the right contexts with respect. I do like the way you try and raise people's consciousnesses, though. Yes, the phrase carries a nasty connotation for you, but people DO need some way to delineate between someone who was born female and can theoretically give them children and someone who can't. Aside from that, all labels are inherently pernicious and wrong.

I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Your situation -- to put it mildly -- is utterly beyond my own limited spheres of experience. On the other hand, it sounds like you pick up some really classy people (sarcasm) and I wonder if there's any way for you to be more selective? Your quoting of Angie Zapata's murderer is an example of the kind of callous mentality I'm talking of: "I had to hit it". Who the hell says something as profoundly repugnant as that, let alone after killing someone? (I'm talking about the person responsible, not you for quoting it, by the way). If the people around you are even a tenth as bad as this, then, if I were you, I think I'd choose to remain celibate (which I currently am). I really hope this doesn't cause you personal offence, but you don't mince your words, and neither will I: Why do you talk about sleeping with this man or that man if they're all such bastards? Is sex a compulsion for you? Or do you keep wishing for the best and finding the worst? Given that I am celibate and would rather a deep, lasting relationship, I personally find it a bit galling to hear you wanting the same yet talk of sleeping with all these people who apparently dump you the moment the deed is done.

Other than that, I will repeat the opening sentence of my last paragraph: I don't have any easy advice for a person in your position. Do you have some for me? I find it difficult to connect with people in a meaningful way, which I personally find as agonising as the way you describe your own situation -- even though you clearly do face ten times the oppression and adversity that I (and many others of us) do. Bionca, I wish you all the best and I hope to hear more from you. Lastly, I again wish to say I hope I haven't offended you. :heart:

Yes i do, But i do want to point this out it doesn't matter where you live this stuff happens to T-girls all over the world not just in the US, Please note i'm not putting down any country or state i'm just stating a fact, Yes in some place we are treated and accepted a lot better then in other places but no matter where you go you find a certen kinda of mentality that wants us locked away out of site out of mind because we don't fit in there way the world is supposed to be according to them, Neil Young said it very well" i don't feel like satan but i am to them" :( Jennifer

Same here my dad and brother wants nothing to do with me and as far as they are consered i don't exist, My mom is having a very hard time dealing with it but at least she is willing to talk to me, My sister blames herself long story there but short verson she caught me trying on her cloths and she just let me wear them in secert i think she liked the idea of having a little sister but she is blaming herself because i'm Jennifer now, Keep try to reach out hopeful one day they will come to terms with it, When your family turns there back on you that is the hardest slap ever but i'm affraid it happens all too offen, Try this i had my therapist talk to my mom and that broke the ice a little and started us talking agian :hug: Jennifer

Okay, I see your points. But really think about it. If you feel you always have to be braver, blah blah blah, then your in for a rough ride. You accepted this life earlier because you felt it to be right. People will accept you because they feel it to be right. All those who just 'accept' you only as objects of desire, well that's what they feel. Sooner or later that feeling can possibly bloom into something greater. But don't jump ahead of me on this. DO be careful of 'dates' even GG's have to be. Do make a point of developing a 'knowing' relationship before a physical one. And the guys who bail, let them. their not worth it anyway. I feel I must defend some married guys as well as to refreshen your memory, as with even a dating couple, a girl(GG or TRANS) or guy will want to keep a certain amount of secrecy because they may want to see if the relationship is first worth the effort or 'lost' of their current mate. Not everyone meets, falls in love and stays together from the first. it's called growing up and moving on (and most times to the better). You seem to be having a rough time out there. From your posts, you seem like a really beautiful person. Please don't let the bad get to you. Your destined to make someone out there a very happy person. Enjoy yourself as you would as a teenager but with adult knowledge. If I could relive my life with what I know now, Boy would I be someone else. NB

Well, the guys mentioned in my first post were sprinkled through the past 7 years. The thing is... I AM selective when it comes to giving up the goodies. As often as not the "real girl" crap comes out because I didn't want to do anythong other than the agreed upon date. I also want to give people chances, so there was a point when I'd just go out with whomever asked provided they knew my status. Some of those were fine affairs, some became funny stories, some were downright insulting - not different than anyone's dates. It's the level of disrespect, not showing up for dates, and assumptions about gals like me that my natal femail friends simply can't relate to, but all my trans* friends know only too well. I think part of my personal issue is I went from very trusting and willing to give everyone a "shot" to being really jaded and untrusting in a rather short amount of time.

The past two years I have barely had any sex because I'm just tired of the BS, tired of being afraid, tired of being insulted, tired of that damn awkward silence as he pulls on his pants and he can't look me in the eye, tired of compliments being followed by "but...". Right now, I have a steady very casual FWB thing. It's fine since I don't expect anything else and I haven't been led to expect anything more either. Given what I hear from other T-gals this is about as good as it's likely to get - my past 7 year (open) relationship was some sort of fluke. Is that true - I don't know... I hope not *shrug*

Advice for you... You say you find it hard to connect with people. Why? What happens? Is it shyness on your part. do you find it difficult to "read" people's reactions? Or is it external, like you are in a situation where it is hard to meet people you have stuff in common? Do you find that you seem to connect with people but they seem to soon lose interest?

I agree - I also believe that neglecting the fact that a transsexual is actually a transsexual woman as opposed to being a cisgendered woman is the same as disrespecting both her reality and femininity.

Again I get my opinion from a few of my very bright transsexual friends here who basicly consider themselves TRANS women and not cisgendered women.

The whole issue is to accept and understand M2F transsexuality as more than just an attempt to change gender. She may not be able to change her cromosones, but that does not make her less feminine or less of a woman - by my standards anyway.

H

This post has been tumbling around in my head for a little while. The tone sounds almost like an apology (as do a number of posts here). There is no need to apologize for being sexually aroused by a trans*woman - shoot, I'm rather fond of it when a guy is aroused by this transwoman. There is also no need to apologize for men in general - since the topic on this thread absolutely passes to non-trans women. Some of the MOST vicious things directed to me and my friends (as well as more famous trans*) have been from natal women. Women are probably more critical of gendered presentation than men are (ask any natal woman who was tall, chunky, a tom-boy who was meaner boys or girls).

So, sure T-gals get disrespected front and back from a little slice of everyone. The battles over using public restrooms for example ... oh man. It's not just a guy thing and it's not just a sex thing. Liking trans* bodies and arousal is probably a good thing. Understanding that we are more and less than guys with tits is critical.

I have come to believe that (natal) women are generally more tolerant towards homo-sexuality than men. Your comment therefore comes as a complete surprise to me, Bionca.

Personally, I have nothing but admiration for the courage and perseverance that you and many other transsexual women are showing. In fact, even though you're not into women, I would love to have you as my friend.:hug:

Thanks for not beating me to death, Bionca. My tone was a little testy, I think, in spite of my pledge to the contrary. I appreciate your reply.

I think the underlying cause is FEAR -- especially of the last scenario (i.e. that people will lose interest in time). And here's something else . . .

I tend to take things really personally and get hacked off the minute I hear ignorant judgementalism from someone, whether it's on sex and gender, music, books or whatever.

Of course, we should probably all hate ignorant judgementalism, but given that we're all guilty of it at times, I think my reaction is too extreme. In reality, it's probably a convenient excuse my mind has become adept at generating as a reason to keep people at a distance or push them away entirely.

I think I lack a great deal of confidence in myself and am never secure enough in my beliefs and life choices to be entirely comfortable around others. I think I continually struggle with determining how much of myself I should reveal to another person -- and that, in turn, hampers me in all things.

Apologies for the bleak and somewhat whiney response. :no:

hi
 

any sexy ladyboys care to give the email add?..hehe..thx

This is a fascinating thread and one which I'm sure will run & run ..

I agree Bionca, that labels are a pain ... I,for example, dislike the term "Admirer" .. to me that conjures up a vision of a sad little man in a dirty raincoat, lurking furtively on the edges of the Transgendered scene ... It most certainly doesn't describe me .. I prefer to describe myself (if I have to wear a label at all) as a "Suitor" .. as that best describes who and what I am ...

I suppose we could call those born genetically Female either "RG's" .. "GG's" or "NG's" (Natal Girls) ... but again, we're back to putting people into boxes ..

No matter how hard the Politically Correct lobby tries to counter it .. the world has been "pigeon-holing" people since time began .. and it won't change ..

Some terms of reference are, without doubt more offensive than others .. personally, I don't much like the word "Tranny" .. yet I hear it often being used amongst many of the Transgendered women I know .. so what do you do ? .. I've even heard the expression "Trannier than Thou" being bandied around in conversation & used as a put-down for a Transgendered woman who believes herself a cut above others ..

I'm sad to learn of the difficulties experienced by some writers concerning their dealings with Police .. here in UK we have the Gender Recognition Act .. and no Police Officer would risk his/her job by overstepping the mark .. in fact, I personally know two serving UK Police officers .. both of whom are MtF Transsexuals ..

My former partner (with whom I was in a two year relationship) and who, at that time was still Pre-op, was stopped late one night in Central London by Police .. because on her way home from the Hospital where she worked she'd pulled over to answer her mobile phone, right outside a sensitive Government building .. the Police checked her vehicle documents, which were still in her "Birth" name .. verified that she was who she said she was & was in lawful possession of the vehicle .. and throughout the encounter addressed her as "Miss Robin" ...

To say that "All Cops are assholes" is painting with a very broad brush indeed .. and is as untrue as saying .. "All TG people are the same" .. or "All Blacks are drug dealers" ... Think about it logically ..

Bye for now,

Orion ..

Th sad thing is, this is a fairly recent development within the last couple of thousand years in most of the west, prior to that we often had a recognised and respected place in many cultures. In some further east that christianity had less of an effect on, we still do.

Hi Amy ..

That's very true .. in fact I was thinking only last night about the special place held by Transgendered people in Native American culture (remember the film "A Man called Horse") ??

Certainly within the Sioux Nation & I believe to an extent within the Cheyenne people .. the Transgendered were accorded special status ..

The subsequent "Western" persecution of the Transgendereed & Gay communities can be laid firmly at the door of the Church ... though in reality they have little to gripe about ..

One of their most revered Saints (Joan of Arc) was probably Transgendered .. or if not, then certainly was "XYY" chromosome afflicted ...

Surely, in 2009 the world is a big enough place for us all to co-exist .. if not exactly in "peace" then at least in tolerance ?????

Bye for now,

Orion ..

First, I wanna say Happy New Year everyone and I hope 2009 will be full of safety, happiness, love and security for everyone. I know I haven't been on for some time, I really have bad times and preferring to be away of people.

I think I mentioned it many times before, but for me there is no difference between "girls" and "tgirls" in my opinion, that's why I use the term girls for both and there's no difference between them. As Bionca mentioned, it's not how you look, but it's how you feel. girls born in the wrong body if I can say that, have all the right to do whatever it takes so they can feel they are in the right body. I think it's no one business what every single person want to do with their personal lives.

As for relationships, I think it's the same way with everyone, jerks are jerks whether they are guys or girls, good people are also there, but it's kinda hard to find them and I think that we don't really look for good people till after we hit the wall several times.

Ok, so it does seem that you distinguish between gals like you, and gals who are not like you. Shall we refer to "real" girls from now on as gals unlike Bionca? Or do you have any other suggestions for terminology we should use when talking about "real" girls with people who don't know Bionca?

Curious you would quote only to make half-assed snarky comments. How about the bit where I mentioned that when a distinction needed to be made (indiating that in some cases a distinction would be appropriate) use of a term that implied deception or invalates to a Trans*woman's identity would be appropriate.

Making a distinction where personal safety could be compromised is simple self preservation. I happened to give some suggestions about terms to use, you could always go back a read them. Perhaps you have some you think would be more appropriate?

I'm pretty sure this won't be a popular post, but I had to chime in. I think the reason some guys don't consider transgendered women "real" women is because they simply aren't. You may be a woman internally, but the term "real" is used to describe the gender we were brought to this earth with. It's like a person associating with a different race; no matter how much they feel they are that race inside, they'll never be.

On top of that, why would you want to be considered a "real" woman anyway? I think there's something special about being transgendered.

Meh, my two cents.

You are wrong. Transwomen are real women. Part of gender identification is in a person's brain. Just because a transwoman's genitals do not match what she feels or knows to be true does not make her any less of a woman. The definition you used is your own. That doesn't make it the correct definition. Your comparison of gender to race is like comparing horses to bananas. They are two completely separate things with no relationship, whatsoever, to one another.

I don't think Bionca is anxious to be considered a "real" woman (at least not by the definition you make). Her objection concerns the use of the term "real women" in a context that differentiates from trans women and where the inference may be derogatory to trans women, suggesting that their "reality", their lives, are somehow less valid.

Here's some (partial) dictionary definition of "real" -
'actually existing, genuine, rightly so called, sincere, not merely apparent or supposed or pretended or artificial or hypocritical or affected'

Bionca and other trans women identify as women, live as women and wish to be accepted thus, and regardless of to what degree they choose to reveal their trans status, past life, or indeed genitalia, I'm sure they do not wish to have their existence perceived as any less "real" than anyone else's.

In this context the prejudice of differentiating as "real" and "not real" can, in extremis, lead to very real dangers as has been pointed out.

Marlowe.. I couldn't have put it better :hug:

Ila ... you are completely correct about the race/trans* comparison

I do want to say that I agree. There is something special about being trans* and surely nothing wrong with being trans*. I'm perfectly happy being a transgendered woman - it's just another way of being a "real woman".

Thanks. I meant nothing negative by my comments, and I can see Marlowe's view.

But Ila, in the context I used the comparison, it's apples to apples.

A person is born to their race = A person born to their gender.

Oh, by the way, you're an absolutely gorgeous woman Bionca.

Aw shucks ...... :D

:hug:really is the most satisfying smilie, thanks!

Best wishes.:kiss:

Amazing comment! Transsexual women often go through hell to achieve the status that I was lucky enough to be awarded through birth. The painful process they have to go through often leads to rejection by friends and family.

Now why on earth should only 'a sad little man in a dirty raincoat' admire such determination?:frown:

a view from Plato on what is real
 

Consider metaphysics, the study or theory of reality explored by Plato and Aristotle. Metaphysics is often used to describe, more narrowly, something called transcendent reality -- namely, the reality that lies beyond the physical world and is not, therefore, grasped by conventional means. In other words, metaphysics seeks to determine the nature of being and, as a philosophical exploration, is aimed at helping us discover the "true nature" of things. That, in turn, leads to an understanding of the ultimate reason for something's existence.

Plato, the great Greek philosopher, considered metaphysics. He believed in a transient reality. In essence, Plato saw two different levels of reality, and held that metaphysics is dualistic. To Plato, there were two different kind of things: physical and mental. There is what appears real and what is real. He saw two worlds: the being and the becoming.

Plato's answer to the basic metaphysical question of what reality is was that, fundamentally, reality is the form of things that are real, and not physical matter.

And what is the form? Plato originated this idea of Forms. He saw them as descriptions of essence. The Greek word also means epitome. So, two or more stones can both be said to be round if they participate in the Form roundness, and Plato held that the Form roundness exists separately from round things.

All this is to say that Bionca, or anyone else, is a girl -- and no less real a girl -- because she participates in the Form girlness. Not convinced? Read her posts, and those of the other thoughtful transgendered participants in the discussions here and in other threads. That is all the proof one needs.

Its a shame there are so many people who are like that - for me its about who the person is. For instance I'm not attracted to guys - but I wouldn't say that I would never have a relationship with a guy, it depends on the individual. I haven't explained that very well, I guess it comes down to people being more open minded, not denying their feelings towards any given gender and not just putting people into categories based on physical appereance. End of rant.

true that
 

It could not have been put better, Soontobe:

"people being more open minded, not denying their feelings towards any given gender and not just putting people into categories based on physical appereance"

Wow, imagine the world with just this one type of denial overcome by even a tenth or a twentieth or a thousandth of all of us on the face of the earth!

smc- interesting post. I generally agree. The only place I think this could expand is with "essence". That is, including the idea of identity or internal knowing.

When discussing people, it is often what is going on mentally/emotionally that proves more important than what is seen externally. A person could be, by all appearances, happy and content while internally conflicted and depressed. Or, a person can have a body of a boy, yet still process the world as a girl.

I like when discussions here take a turn for the cerebral.

identity / internal knowing
 

Bionca, the operative words in what I wrote are "participating in the Form." The great thing about it all is that the Form has a universality that cannot be undone just because some idiot tells you you're not a girl, or all girl, or whatever the idiot thinks. You are so clearly participating in the form girlness, and that is what makes you a real girl. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. :respect:

girlness
 

SMC made an excellent post , discussing Plato’s view of metaphysics and the concept of “forms” or how transsexuals fit into the “essence” of girlness. Eckhard Tolle in his book “Awakening to your Life’s Purpose” expands on this concept of “forms” and how they relate to our ego centered identity.

I also would like to put in my two cents worth. Indian mysticism and especially the philosophy Tantric yoga has significance for transsexuals. In Tantric yoga there is a God “Siva” and a Goddess “Parvati”. Tantric adepts “worshipers” believe that Siva is inert until Parvati merges with him in sexual union. Parvati possesses the energy that enables Siva to create the universe. Some Tantric sects worship the transsexual aspect of this union and create statues representing this union as half male and half female, in other words transsexual.
Tantric philosophy reveals that the female energy of the Goddess is suppressed in males. In the male human, the ego actively suppresses the female spirit within, in order to maintain male ego dominance. This female energy can be activated and transcend the male ego by meditation and worshiping the Goddess (called kundalini in India). This energy rises from the base of the spine and can produces very powerful self awareness “enlightenment” if you will, with a feeling of bonding with the universe.
I suspect that male hostility directed toward transsexuals has something to do with the basic insecurity the male ego has toward females and especially toward males transcending into females. They know subconsciously that males are psychically inferior to females and their ego dominance is threatened. This is an extremely brief presentation of Tantric yoga and may not make much sense but I know from personal experience that it works. I am a straight male and Tantric yoga has made my relationship with women much easier. Sometime, I would like to know how well I could get along with a tgirl.:respect::hug:

Tantra
 

Transexual God showing the female side and the male side.

thats messed up but don't worry he'll get his. paybacks a bitch

First time
 

First time I was with a shemale (about 15 yrs ago), it was a blind date surprise kind of thing. Went to dinner, went dancing, drinks, coffee and ice cream after. Get to her place and she turned the lights off, wouldn't take off the panties, no touchie me there. Came to the realization when she wouldn't let me touch her what would have been vagina. So, I just played along and fucked her anyways. Didn't bother me a bit. Looking back though, she should have been upfront with me. We both would have had better sex.

Next day my Dad asked how the "big" date went. (He watched me get ready) I told him the truth about the TGirl. He asked, "so what did you do when you found out?" I told him I shot my load in her ass. He laughed long and hard out loud and asked two questions: "how was it", and "did you wear a condom?" He was a good dad.

Hi GGadmirer ...

To answer your question .. it's not so much that only "sad little men in dirty rain coats" admire Transwomen .. Admiration & respect are open to everyone, if they so choose ..

The fact is that there are a large group of men who continue to perceive Transwomen as something "risky", "dangerous", "fun", "different" .. in other words a secret little fetish which they'd rather their families, work colleagues or friends didn't know they liked ..

They indulge their "little secret" on the quiet .. and then scuttle off home to the wife .. as if nothing had ever happened ..

These are the people who lack the moral conviction to admit (sometimes even to themselves) that they find Transwomen attractive .. so, they "lurk" on the fringes .. thus giving those of us who are perfectly open about what we like & don't like a bad name ..

A bad name that is, amongst Transwomen .. from my own personal experience, I've been told by T-Girls whom I've dated that once they'd got past the initial "Admirer" thing .. I was totally different from what they'd been expecting ..

As has been said in previous posts .. labels (of all kinds) can be pernicious, whether applied to Transwomen .. or to those of us who prefer their company & treat them as women and with the respect to which they're entitled, as people ..

Hence my dislike for the term "Admirer" .. I wish there were some practical way of separating the two ...

I happen to be one of the fortunate ones in that I'm in a loving, caring, stable relationship with my girlfriend, Jenny .. a vivacious, down-to-earth, very attractive Transwoman .. whom I happen to love very much and whose company I'm proud to be in ...

Mizzy B and I tried here at this forum to find other terms... unsuccesfully...

1. "Admirer" is a little bit too much like a kinky, ugly grease ball in the proverbial rain coat...

2. "Tranny-Chaser" sounds like a drink... "Can I have two Buds and a Tranny-Chaser on the side... make it a double, will ya. Be generous on the spunk...?"

3. "Tranny-lover" is also cheasy... a guy secretly jerking off to his fascination...

4. "Tranny-chaser"... he goes to Bangkok twice a year and keeps it hidden... but he makes little dots in his bed every time he beds a little tranny down...

My sweet Fey once called me a "shemale-collector" and a "shemale-protector", but I doubt that applies either...

So what is the term for us hideous, abnormal perverts?

I dunno - "a guy like me who likes a girl like her..." ? That's still the best, though, a highly user-unfriendly and impractical term...

H

almost perfect
 

Hank writes,

This is hardly "user-unfriendly and impractical". Rather, it is almost perfect in that it avoids creating a label, and labels are -- as we can read throughout this forum -- the source of so much angst and asinine thought.

It's still impractical...

Question: "Hey Hank, are you gay or str8?"

Answer: "I'm a tranny-lover"

versus

Question: "Hey Hank, are you gay or str8?"

Answer: "I'm a guy like me who likes a girl like her..."

Question: "What is that?"

Answer: "My girlfriend is transsexual"

Question: "Oh, why didn't you say so to my first question...?"

But I do agree totally with your point. I think that we're all more comfortable with labels, however, the fact that it is even almost impossible to find a describing label for "a guy like me who likes a girl like her" is thought-provoking... maybe we simply don't exist??? There are terms for so many things - but not for a tranny-lover...

You can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, transsexual... but where does that leave me?

The entire problem is, that the term "sexual" is misplaced. A homosexual is someone who is sexually attracted to her or his own sex... a transsexual is someone who identifies as her or his opposite gender. Nothing to do with sexual orientation here.

And it all comes down to the fact that transgenderism is minority and no need to take us seriously. We're just so much freaks that the hetero-laymen (or homo-laymen, for that matter) cannot even label us correctly...

:-)

I don't see a need to give a label or a term to anybody. I am just me. Instead of agonizing or contemplating over what others may call you, call yourself what you want to be known as. I am a man and that's all that is required.

give a different answer
 

Hank poses the following imaginary conversation to support that his phrase is "impractical":

How about this answer:

What difference does it make?

That's basicly what I answer... but it still would be easier if guys like me who like girls like her could have a more prudent label...

I'm sure you realize that I'm not really arguing with you. I just wish so much that we all would stop worrying about labels. The endless threads asking about being gay make me want to scream.

Of course, I blame seriously skewed social mores, and the fact that (especially in the United States) "morality" is about matters sexual and rarely about truly amoral things like poverty and war, rather than the individuals who keep posing these questions and fretting over how others will judge their sexual preferences.

I like how this has turned into a discussion of labels as they apply to the cis* folks who date gals like me.

It is a mark of privilege to be able to say that labels don't matter. The reality is, to society at large, they DO matter. A cis* person does not have basic choices and aspects of their identity and life routinely questioned, discounted, and invalidated. A heterosexual person does not have their relationships routinely belittled and called perverted. A white person is not told that race is the most important part of who they are.

You can go on and believe that labels don't matter. The reality is, you will be labeled and probably incorrectly at that. Even amongst the Trans* community, you guys are labeled as "chasers" and "admirers" (at best) - neither of these are particularly flattering. Both of them apply to a large segment of guys who are attracted to trans* women.

Chaser - has a connotation of someone eternally looking to move on. Chasing one girl after another, never satisfied with who he has.

Admirer - Is passive, where Chaser is active. A guy who lurks in the shadows, has dirty secrets and then slinks back to his life with no investment (other than economic) and no ties.

These are the roles set for you guys to work with. You can either be comfortable with them, work against them, or come up with something else. The benefit of having a label, a name, an identity is to claim the ability to self-definition. Self-determination is the first step to liberation for all of us.

For various reasons I hate those questions too. I'll bet for different reasons than the majority here. Labeling won't go away - which is why I think you all should suss out a name for what you are, if the existing ones don't work. Or embrace them if they do. While working for a society that abandons the need sort people out into easy to digest groups.

don't get me wrong
 

Bionca is absolutely correct when she writes, "It is a mark of privilege to be able to say that labels don't matter." So, I want to clarify: it's not that I think they do not matter -- obviously, if we are to live in a society in which we are all labeled, it is something with which we must constantly deal -- but that I long for the time when the will not matter. Getting there is most likely a process that involves a combination of finding the "correct" or "best" label that frees us from the stigmas associated with ones previously used, and vigilantly speaking out against labeling.

It is abhorrent that anyone should "have basic choices and aspects of their identity and life routinely questioned, discounted, and invalidated," as Bionca writes. It is true that people "will be labeled and probably incorrectly at that." I am just suggesting some ways to deal with this by those of us who, as Bionca so correctly notes, are not as often victimized by such actions.

Vigilance demands that we never fail to notice when it is happening and take every opportunity to speak out against it.

Last night, I watched the film "Milk." I was struck by Harvey Milk's strategy for building opposition to the anti-gay Proposition 6 in California back in 1978. He encouraged every gay man and lesbian in the state to come out to their friends, families, neighbors, work colleagues, etc. His argument was that once everyone realized that they knew someone who would be victimized by the passage of the proposition, it would turn a lot of minds away from voting yes. That same concept informs my approach to dismissing labels.

So, while at the same time we must live with them, and their is value in finding "better" ones, I strongly encourage everyone to take the most simple approach -- whenever possible -- and simply refuse to be labeled, in whatever way one can. Both are part of the "self-determination" that Bionca so aptly identifies as "the first step to liberation for all of us."

Labels labels labels all these labels and the reason is as human's we need to put everything into neat tidy little groups and truth be told it can't be done but we try anyway :frown: Jennifer

I guess sometimes you have to use labels. I'd certainly rather be just referred to in standard feminine terms. But I really don't mind "girl like you" or "pre-op" or just about anything. The only thing that really bothers me is being referred to as "gurl" online. That's such a fucked up word. Are people trying to combine "girl" and "guy"? And cranky lesbians who act like I'm a drag queen annoy me.


Shemale protector? Is that some kind of heavy-duty version of the Reality condom that's made for anal? :)

Things evolve over time and work themselves out. Labels are necessary I think. I could be completely wrong here, but there seems to be an explosion of passable TS girls lately. More and more men are admitting that they like this and over time there might be as many TG people as there are gay people. As science figures out the brain and we get better hormones, people will learn too. What I'm saying is that even though there have been TG people all throughout history, it is now becomming practical, more understood and more common. Give people who have not had the experiences you've had a little time. People are not as arrogant as much as they might seem. Be less sensitive and understand that not everyone can be in the same state of mind as everyone else at the same time. Everyone even has a couple different of our own moods a day. To each their own right?

My thoughts exactly, let's keep it nice and simple.... there is such a thing as over-analysis! Makes for very interesting forum discussion though :-)

Ouch... ;-) Considering my nasty history of BBing I don't think so... :D

Nooo, Fey got slightly political... the way I like my women ;-)

I don't mind labels at all - actually it's kinda interesting. In branding and identity-design where I have by daily capacity, we SEARCH for labels to simplify and enhance communication. The fact is that whether we like it or not, we all get assigned an identity - and if we don't attempt to control the labelling (aka branding) then the market will control it - and most often NOT to our benefit. Companies, organisations, people, sexualities, politics... it's human nature to label and to identify aspects in ways so that they can relate to it more easily.

Nothing bad about that unless the labelling is based on ignorance, which it most often is in regards to trans-life from cis*folks.

The labelling must come from us!

H

a little help
 

that cop and jerk need a little lesson in manners

This is a beautifully provocative statement that I will follow totally!

I think you are SO RIGHT!

Unless we start dealing with the cromosomes, which can get sorta messy, then this is the case!

A trans*woman is NOT judged by her cromosomes but by her ability to LIVE her femininity through her mind and given body.

And aint nothing very grander than that!

H

No racquel that is merely just illiteracy trying to be hip. Obviously the regular spelling of "girl" is too blah so they had to spice it up a bit. :yes:

Haha... must be an acute case of misspelling :-) a chick is a chick, a guy is a guy and, surely, a girl is a girl... and, grrr, Mizzy R is certainly a girrrl... just 12.000 kms much too far away...

Bionca,
I'm not sure that is the same thing (cock size). If a woman is out with a guy, she believes he HAS a cock, and when a guy is out with a woman, he believes she DOES NOT HAVE A COCK, and when he finds out, he is going to feel he has been mislead (at the very least), and not be very pleasant about it. Some people are going to BE violent because the world teaches us that that is the response we should have when we are decieved.
If you bought a corvette and they drove out a ford after you signed the papers, you'd be mad too. I understand the problem, but the guy who doesn't know that the "real" woman is not, is simply not going to go with the program. That is simply asking too much of human nature.

???

When I date a woman I most certainly expect her to have a cock. But I wouldn't beat her up if she didn't.

H

Interesting you would assume that a trans* woman who is murdered is being deceptive. That a man is somehow justified in murder in this case. That the reasoning for that justification is "boys will be boys".

I am 100% honest with the guys I date (so was Angie). I have have been assaulted by those guys. Next time I date a guy with the same level of reasoning and respect as you have shown I should be justified in at the very least beating the shit out of him for being deceptive.

Well said, Mizzy B!

The guys who try to reason these kinds of ridiculous excuses are just totally off the mark.

But the whole problem again is the lack of respect for transsexuality. We're all freaks in the hearts and minds of the right-thinkers, and we have it coming...

As trans*people or guys who like girls like you we are SUPPOSED to wear a ribbon saying... "Honey bunny, I have a dick..."

Surely, if a trans*girl does NOT come out telling her story, she may expect some sort of reaction, if she operates within the normal cisgender facilities, as people simply don't expect trans*women. But NOBODY should beat her up for being herself and for being gorgeous and for being herself.

In the end nobody should have to...

This is a sad hetero world...

H

im new to all this but my opinion which is probably wrong is.. why does a girl have to have a pussy.. a TS girl should be respected it takes a lot to put up with the shit they take... id be honered and proud to hace a TS girl on my arm

Well, WELCOME to the club, my man! If this is your line of thinking you and I will be great friends!

You're completely right!

H

thanks for that H.. much appreciated... its a confused world out there and im part of it...

Don't be confused at all, my man, just know what you believe in! And supporting transsexuality any which way one can is a pretty good belief and a rather good way.

The confusement comes, when we forget our core values - such as basic respect for humans with different views than us (this excludes Republicans, of course... kiiiddiiing...).

If you can find space in your heart to encompass the poetic and real beauty of transsexuality, then you are, indeed, further than most of your fellow men, friend!

May I ask, do you have a transsexual girlfriend?

H

I don't condone violence of any kind for any reason
 

Bionca,
I did not say that I condoned violcence. I did say that it is the LIKELY outcome when someone feels/is deceived. You may be "up front" (pun intended) with your dates, but you cannot make that declaration for all TG's.
A few weeks ago, there was a lot of to-do over the woman from Scotland who won the singing talent contest because her "looks" didn't match her voice. A bunch of psychologists weighed in to remind us that yes, we are victims of, and make judgements based on, first impressions. Those impressions are usually true. If a guy sees a person with a skirt, nice looks, long hair, he's going to ASSUME that that person is a woman with the appropriate anatomy. That last thing he's going to say is " is that a flashlight under your skirt or are you just happy to see me?"
You surely must realize that until TG's have the necessary surgery, the number of available men for any relationship-never mind long term-- is going to miniscule, and even then, it will be an uphill battle all the way. If it's the perfect cover for a gay relationship, it may work, but that has to be up-front as well. The way you feel in your mind (about being woman trapped in a man's body) does not alter the fact that you were born a male and that based on that, another male is going to have great difficulty with a relationship even if he sees you outwardly as a female. In his mind, he may see you as a guy (in drag) and therefore that puts him in a different sex-choice category. I hope that I've expained my meaning without insult. I've read some of your posts and I know you know the difference between the "guys with fantasies" and the reality. It is not as Eddy Murphy said "once you tried a guy with no legs, you can never go back".

"appropriate anatomy"
 

The problem with what Puck writes begins with the two words in this sentence that I have highlighted in boldface: "If a guy sees a person with a skirt, nice looks, long hair, he's going to ASSUME that that person is a woman with the appropriate anatomy."

Puck's premise is that the absence of this "appropriate anatomy" is the root of a "deception" -- a word based on an active verb, deceit. And what is the action? It is the willful effort to convince someone to believe that which is not true.

I contend that Puck's entire premise is wrong. Let's make this more concrete and abstract -- and please excuse me, Bionca, for including you in this exercise but since you have posted so eloquently I am hopeful it will be okay. Here goes: Do you, Puck, contend that Bionca (for example) is not truly a woman? Do you contend that when she self-identifies as a woman she is untruthful? If the answer is yes to either of these questions, then I ask what gives Puck (or anyone, for that matter) the right to make that determination for Bionca. Who are any of us to decide for any transgendered person what is the "appropriate anatomy"?

A premise such as Puck's is not only wrong, but it contributes to the violence in a rather insidious (or perhaps not so subtle) way. Not only does it dehumanize the victim (by creating a category that seems other than "normal" -- in this case, missing the "appropriate anatomy"), but it is a rationalization of the violence itself. Since words can be as violent as fists, as a rationalization it becomes a form of the violence.

Until we stop giving any aid and comfort to the attackers of transgendered people, even in the form of explanations such as the one Puck offers, we are complicit. Rationalizing an attacker's behavior -- even if we ourselves would never throw the punch -- must stop!