How important is passable/female identity?
 

Option 2

Cham

I'm at a point now where I'm possibly considering facial feminization surgery. I'm pretty passable as it is, but I realize there are some masculine features on my face, though even genetic women have a few. I think what helps me pass the most is my voice, which I've been training since puberty attempted to change but I won the fight, and that I've socialized as a girl. All too often I see transgirls trying to overcompensate their masculinity with obnoxious femininity, and that just isn't how it is with most genetic females.

Passing is definitely important, but when you start to dwell on it 24/7 and it starts to affect your life, it's time to reprioritize. When I look in the mirror I'm realistic about what I see, and of course I'd want to polish off a few features, namely my jaw and my forehead, but right now it just isn't as important to me as other things. I still get hit on and told I'm cute, from guys who don't even know about me... that's enough for me.

Oh, and a small rant: The goal of passing is not a beauty contest. Too many TS get plastic surgery in the name of "FFS" when really, after constant procedures, they start to cross from "feminization" to "cosmetic". Everyone has something they don't like, but it doesn't always have a distinctive gender marker, either.

Grow up and get over it.

You're not doing yourself any favors by dragging out this temper tantrum of yours.

For me too... I surely can say when a T-woman is too much man (for my taste), but that's actually not necessarily the same as her being not woman enough... or lovely enough... or wonderful enough...

To me, I guess, the slight socalled "masculinity" in most (not all) T-women is merely part of her charm. To some extent it can make her even more feminine...

Don't forget the $10 on the dresser.

No one said passing isn't important, but when the fear of getting clocked consumes you, it's time to step back and look at the big picture. FFS isn't miracle work - while most get amazing results, no one's going to look 100% feminine, and we shouldn't expect that.

What's wrong with thinking positively, whether or not you pass?

And if TS don't have the right to judge passability, why are you criticizing those that may not completely pass but still find comfort with their looks regardless?

Get over yourself; this arrogance is a rather masculine trait for you.

Working at fast food is more respectable than what you do.

I'd like to go on record stating I hate the word "Passing". Is the opposite then, "Failing"? Is a Trans*woman who can't afford thousands of dollars in surgeries a failure? I don't think so. It also implies a level of deception, since the term is taken from light-skinned African-Americans who could "pass" as white.

All that said, I worked very hard to afford the feminization surgeries that modified my skull and neck. "Passing" is at the very least an issue of personal safety for many. Unfortunately, "passing" becomes equated with "pretty" and used to justify insulting some gals.

Sexy Avatar
 

BIONCA,

Am I the first to notice your sexy new avatar?

Is this a one photo thing, or more than one photo taken at that time?

i think its down to the girl at the end of the day, if shes happy shes happy. some women dont care that they dont always pass as they are very confident.

Others as you say can get upset and cry as you did. i guess this is because they strive for perfection and want to pass 100% of the time as a female.

From a guys point of view, especially a str8 guys this is perhaps more important since he wants to be seen dating females and not TS ladies.

Just some thoughts for your tread

I can understand you hating it but the fact is, it's the word referring to "believable". So pick a word, any word, but in the end we are talking about being perceived as a woman.

You're so delusional, I almost pity you.

And I thought you weren't trying to do anything for TS? Don't tell me you've had a change of heart now?

Well said, Mizzy B. Obviously, grasping not only the superficial feminine prettyness but rather the entire beauty of transsexuality, which by my book goes way much deeper than merely a great face-job, is what this is all about.

And with that comes a deep respect and a realization that transsexuality above all and deeper than all is an amazing degree of self-realization that very few people would ever have the courage to pursue.

I've certainly been in circumstances where more "passable" transsexual women would actually mock their socalled less passable sisters - and that's not nice at all. Actually, it's ridiculous.

But that's to some degree the name of the game, I'm afraid...

Hey Dude, I take cash only no checks and no English currency.

Get a new cartoon profile. You can keep hiding behind your computer like a scared little man.

May I remind you that it was you who started insulting me in this thread, and that I merely posted about my own experience relevant to the topic on an OPEN FORUM. You're repeating the same thing over and over whenever you see my avatar, which you no doubt admire so much, to the degree that is almost obsessive.

I'm not going to be one of your clientele; there's no need for you to sell yourself to me at every opportunity.

I never said I didn't have pictures - I said I wasn't going to post them here. I know it drives you mad; that's merely an amusing aftereffect rather than an intended consequence.

PS: Ever hear of the pot calling the kettle black?

Ladies please, could you keep it civilized? There's nothing wrong with having different opinions. Just agree to disagree, and stop acting like two twelve year olds. At least keep the discussion at a level above the Jerry Springer show.
If you don't like each other, fine, then don't, but I think this board is hardly the place for this kind of trash talk.

Lady, it's one not two.

We have no evidence this hack is anything but a man tranny wannabee.

He also denigrates any TS who escorts, which encompasses some of the brightest stars and personalities in the TS community. I am not just defending myself but all TS who do what we do. He calls it a plague. I'm not gonna take that crap not on my thread.

She won't stop. Watch her come at me in another thread later.

For crying out loud, Melissa, leave Smoldering alone...
 

Or maybe we can show you someone who very simply is doing what 99.999% of everyone does on the Internet -- protecting their privacy.

Honestly, Melissa, I don't understand why you keep bringing up this personal attack on Smoldering. It's brainless, pointless, and no one here is buying the bullshit you're peddling -- no matter how much you want to constantly declare "If you don't love me now, you will", as if parading an over-sized ego is going to win you more admirers or win an argument. Every single time you address Smoldering in such a dismissive way, I think that YOU picture yourself as some sort of triumphant ape in the jungle thumping your chest...meanwhile the rest of us see you for what you really are: a day-dreaming trained chimp behind the bars of a local zoo, tapping their chest and desperately hoping that someone will pay you the slightest bit of attention or toss you a banana.

Look, you work as a hooker. Oh, sorry, I guess I should be more of a gentleman and be a bit more diplomatic. Fine, you're a self-declared "escort." But the bottom line is that you fuck for cash...you sell your face and body...therefore you have an actual BUSINESS reason for putting your face out there as much as possible. And you have an actual BUSINESS reason to promote your web site or blog as much as possible, too (as you do at the bottom of each of your posts), simply so potential clients can contact you and thus you can possibly make more money.

But Smoldering isn't a hooker. She has no reason to post her picture. For that matter, NO ONE here really does when you come right down to it. Hey, I'm a professional published writer...I'm a printed artist...plus I work in Hollywood having done work behind and, yes, in front of the camera, too. But that doesn't mean I have a need to declare "who" I am versus simply being here for some fun or to meet and make new friends. And once I've made those friends, fine -- THAT'S when you can confide in those people your real name or give them your e-mail address or phone number or trade pictures or whatever the hell else you want to do.

And why? Because at that point you trust them and you DO want to be friends with them.

So, ENOUGH ALREADY with this utter horse shit you keep throwing at Smoldering, especially your debasing charge that she must be a man sitting behind a computer simply because she won't show her picture to you. Fuck that shit right up its ass. You fucking bitch all the time and whine like a little baby about how tough your life has been compared to other people or other TS (as if they've never faced obstacles or tough times)...you complain about the things you had to overcome to find your own identity...you want to stroke your own cock and ego to declare how "passable" you are...and yet you don't want to show a single shred of decency or respect to any other person or TS who might be shy or who is trying to find themselves...or who simply wants their privacy respected on the Net.

And speaking on the whole "passable" issue, the one person with the truly RIGHT post here was Bionca, who as usual showed what a class act she is. I realize "passable" is a term that the TS community uses, but Bionca was 100% right -- what is the alternative to that word, that you "failed"? That now you must be ugly and thus you have NO worth in life at all?

Again, fuck that shit right up its ass. Speaking as someone who does live and work in Hollywood, let me tell you that the FIRST lesson you learn working out here is the depth (or lack there of) regarding people.

In a previous post and in another thread, I noted that you can break people down into two types: Those who want to help other people, who want to help those who are coming up the ladder behind them versus those who are angry, embittered, and totally self-serving. Those who will say "Fuck that. I had a hard time in life, no one helped me, so now you should have a rough time, too." The result: they DON'T help other people.

Well, you can now amend that a bit because here is another difference in the two types of people in life: there are those who are all consumed by looks versus those who realize the human spirit and all that we are as human beings comes from within. So, Melissa, if ALL you care about is looks...if all you care about is how "passable" you are OUTWARDLY...if being a hooker sprawled out in a hotel room collecting 500 bucks a shot for taking it up the ass is "how" you define your true femininity and self-worth...then you're a pretty sad excuse for a TS.

Not to mention, with a piss-poor attitude like yours, you've got to be a truly terrible fuck in bed, too.

Looks like someone's starved for attention.

Passing is not one thing.
PASSING is EVERYTHING !

Melicious
 

MEL,

Or is it malicious?


Are you the cock that stirs the honey pot?


Piece,


TAL

I am the shiznitz

What is that?
 

MEL,

Could you translate from the language or slang what you are?


Piece,


TAL

To me it seems that you are a shemale instead for a transexual girl, to be a TS girl have NOTHING to do with a desire to get (sexual) attention from men, its about to be your true self, a woman, you have the bad luck to be girl born in a mans body and therefore need to correct there nature failed.
Transexualism has nothing to do with your sexuality, its about your gender.
Its not like transvetitets, men who get horny to wear women clothes.

Be Nice
 

MEL,

English is not her first language, and this is a global forum, which includes some non-English speakers as well. Like you, she has an opinion, as do I. She wasn't being adversarial, just stating an opinion.

Piece,


TAL

O Goddess D'erectness
 

MEL:

Should I close my eyes, open my mouth, or both?

Should I offer you a hand, or both hands?


Piece,


TAL

"Empty niceties"?
You mean like people actually being pleasant to each other?

Yeah, you're right -- we should really "thank you" for taking that away. We should thank you for throwing around an over-sized ego, or for insulting any fellow TS that are here simply because they don't agree with you on something or because they won't post their picture (choosing instead to protect their privacy online). And we should thank you for taking cheap shots at people -- like making fun of someone who lives in a foreign country, so English is obviously not their first language, and all they want to do is try and share some thoughts of their own on a public message board. Yeah, you're right, Melissa. We really owe you for all that you've given us. Like a cheap hooker who stakes out a spot on a local corner, you've added SO much class the neighborhood.

Oh, wait -- you ARE a cheap hooker.
So, I guess that comment is literally on target.

Ah, the sweet ironies in life...

Creative, I can always count on you to read my every word unfortunately I cannot return the favor.

You can contact me privately whenever you are ready for our date bring lube.

There needs to be a clarification I think. To guys who love/date/fuck/admire/jerk-off to Trans*Women so often "Passing" = "pretty".

In my case, as well as most T-Gals I know, hormonal and surgical femiization was/is key to their own self-image and self-esteem. I may wish it was different, but the perceptions of strangers (not to mention friends) matters. Being un-gendered by a clerk at the store who calls you "sir" is a blow, teens at the mall insulting you is a blow, folks laughing as yuo pass them .. you get what I'm saying. The confidance of having something as basic as your gender affirmed unconciously on a daily basis cannot be over stated.

The reality is, most Trans*women can pass, given the means and access to do so. By "pass" I mean they can walk outside in daylight and not get insulted. They aren't porn chick sexy, they look like the average woman they are. So, "passing" is critical for the general well-being of most Trans*women. Being sexually desireable (for me) was way way down on the list.

That's exactly right. Genetic women come in all different sizes, shapes, colors, etc. and it's the same with transsexual women as well. I've seen some rather manly looking GGs but no one questions them because it's still obvious that they're women. There's way too much pressure in the TS community to adhere to an (in my opinion) exaggerated ideal of feminine beauty, and I think that can be detrimental for transition. Not only do we need to look like the women we are, but we feel we have to look above and beyond GGs with regards to "beauty".

The admirers are always saying TS are even more feminine/beautiful than GGs... You would hope it's a little bit about the personality as well.

I couldn´t say it better myself, you put your finger right on the spot Bionca!:respect:

I told my psychiatrist that if I ever became famous as an artist that he should tell people that I was completely insane, but if I stayed a loser to please keep my records confidential.

Translation: "Creative, I know you're right, but I can't admit it openly.
Otherwise my truly fucked-up ego would crumble and I'd have no reason to exist."

As for bringing lube to any date with you, a far better tip for all of your clients
would probably be to bring massive doses of antibiotics given your profession...

Nono, you misread me. I'm in no way critisizing any one for striving for passability, perfection or any thing that is important to them. On the contrary I salute it completely. And yes, I realize of course the importance of the socalled passability.

My point goes to other aspects as well, though. Firstly, I don't find it fair when obvious pretty, gorgeous and "passable" trans-women look down on their less fortunate sisters. Secondly, I believe that gender identification is just as important for the less fortunate one than for the passable one.

My immensely wise (and extraordinarily beautiful and passable) x once said that "to be a succesful transsexual you must to some extent not only accept but actually cherish your masculinity". There's a lot of truth in that.

But again, transsexuality is as difficult to categorize and generalize as most things - probably even more so. I've found almost as many approaches to being transsexual as I've met trans-women.

My other x (equally extraordinarily gorgeous and passable) said it in another way: "I'm not at all aiming at becoming a "real" woman - I'm totally happy at being a very unique, transsexual woman". She certainly is!

Again, it's very personal and individual.

But basicly I fully understand and partly agree with your "abstract".

H

Well said Hank. We will never be women in the truest sense and those who purport as much are naïve and most likely beginners.

We are transsexual the third gender we are women with attitude. And we focus on our femininity more than natural women.

Aaahhh, but then what is "in the truest sense"? No, transsexual women will never become biological women (that would certainly take some work on the cromosones :-), but is a biological woman necessarily more woman than a transsexual woman?

I'm not so sure that she is - actually I'm quite sure she isn't if we open our minds and view this a bit differently than main stream beliefs.

This is obviously my personal opinion based on my personal experience - and that is that "womanhood" or "femininity" or which ever term you wish to use to describe the gender characteristics are diverse and certainly apply as well to transsexual women as they do to cisgender women.

Surely, you may have a hard time getting a passport stating "she" (due to screwed-up lack of understanding from the lay-people who rule the world), but does that make you less of a woman?

I don't think so.

So I find no reason why cisgender girls should have a monopoly on "womanhood".

H

fiesty
 

Hey Melissa!
Give them hell baby, the more you talk, the more I would like to have sex with you. When can I get an appointment? :inlove::turnon::coupling:

I view TS women the same as GGs, it is all about how they take care of themselves and their sex appeal. If ANY girl is sloppy of just plain unattractive to me, then I'm not interested. So, to me, "passing" is in an individual thing.

ts
 

The other day I was at Starbucks and a "girl" was getting a cup of coffee. She had enlarged breasts, a low cut blouse, a short skirt and high heels. She was obviously a ts. I smiled as I watched her walk past me and she noticed me looking at her. She then made a face at me and stuck out her tongue and strutted off. That's has been my only actual encounter with a ts. :(

LOL that one made me laugh. Do you really think you're that hot?

My profile picture is a silly caricature, and obviously not me. Now back to the subject... You actually said "It means I am a fucking Goddess now on your knees boy."

Tell us mortals, what makes you a fucking Goddess?

being passable is very important..... but more important is how the transswoman feel and think

very important.

must be fully shaven down below aswel.

Hmmm... time has passed since we discussed this. But I believe you're right, Mizzy B. It's more about pretty than "passable". I dislike the term, btw, "passable" as what?

Do I feel embarrassed if people can see that my girlfriend is a trans*woman? No, I don't - on the contrary, actually. Does SHE feel embarrassed? Probably sometimes.

So "passability" is most likely more a case of her feeling satisfied by her own femininity.

But pretty is the thing - and in this regard it is no different from any guy's attration to any girl - cis* or trans*. As I'm certain you also like a handsome man...

Let's not be hypocritical about this.

So here's the REAL question:

Personality and anything else aside, just LOOKS... would I prefer to date a pretty but not "passable" or a "passable" but not pretty trans*woman?

Well, you know my answer to that.

The whole issue is, that this damn "passability" thing distracts the point that femininity is not only a matter of feminine features. Femininity is personality and in the end these cannot really be separated.

I have several "non-passable" trans*friends (some of them strikingly gorgeous) - meaning that people know they are trans*women. Again, to many trans*women this is obviously an important aspect, so I have to respect it, but it's not the most important aspect by my current views. Her femininity comes from so deep inside. And THAT'S what I pick up on...

H

Hank - I prefer the term "blend" over "pass". I mean the opposite of "pass" is "fail" and I refuse to believe that any trans woman is a failure at being a woman.

Missy B, the one and only thing that worries me about the term "passability" is it's inherent despect for transsexuality as a concept. It is as if it doesn't recognize the beauty of trans*reality.

Why is it that a transsexual woman should "pass as anything"? Why can't she just be a transsexual woman?

I ofcourse know your answer to this one, but I'd like to challenge a little bit the neglect of transsexuality as a beautiful "state of mind" in its own right.

As Fiona (my x) once put it beautifully: "I'm a woman, but a TRANSSEXUAL woman not a bio-woman, and I'm happy to be..." I found that to be one of the most important and deep statements I've ever heard from a trans*woman. She pinpointed in so many words the whole issue.

Well, I'm just a fuzzy little "tranny-lover", so I reckon I'm biased, but yet...

H

Passing must be important
 

It seems to me that passing must be important since that is the direction all Tgirls seem to be going. After all; why else dress like a girl, wear hair (wigs) like a girl, use makeup, etc if you are not trying to look like a female. While the reasons for doing so are many, the direction one goes is still the same.
And if you are trying to look like a girl, then passing would be the test of wether you have succeeded. Now some of us do have to face the fact that it would be very difficult for us to pass. The best I can do is look ok for the camera. Now Melissa looks real good to me; maybe not the foxiest babe on the block, but believable as a female. :yes:

As far as her profession goes, as far as I'm concerned, it's a honorable calling and nowdays takes a great deal of courage. If it were not for the hagover effect of Victorian morals and the stupidity of the Christian Religions then our society would think nothing of it. :innocent:

So hang in there Melissa and don't let em get ya down:respect:

Okay. I'm going to totslly pretend that there is no controversy going on and just answer the question. I voted: Very important but not all consuming.

passable
 

passable is everthing otherwise I would find any gay man to fuck or suck me. It's the excitement of being with a beautiful woman who can turn-me-on with her looks and make me wanna go gay to be with her. This why I have no guilt for feeling this way. If a ladyboy can look so hot that I want to fuck her and give her head, THAT'S GREAT!!!:coupling::turnon::inlove:

Epic fail.
Also, you are very shouty, in a blokey sort of way. ;)

[URL="http://melissacarter.net/melissastory.html"]blog http://melissacarter.net/melissastory.htm[URL]
UPDATE: September 2008

In late Febraury, broke and depressed, I couldn't bear the thought of looking for yet another real estate job, which I was sure to be fired from. I had briefly dabbled in the escort scene. I decided to give it another whirl

At the same time I was meeting many clients and being exposed to a darker side of life, which included drugs. I quickly became hooked on freebase cocaine and all but ruined my life in a few short months.

Lost in addiction, and having the money to finance it, I had become an out of control addict of the highest order. This seemed to go well with my lifestyle, or so I thought, and by July my life was nothing more than that of a crack whore.
Oh, that explains your rant.
Interesting read, though.

Why is it so important to be passable?
 

I know that I will never pass.
I have feminine face, but there is nothing I can do about my length.
But still I have the right to be myself.
Most transgenders and transsexuals have something that give them away, we are not perfect.

The women on this site are very beautiful, but they are as representative for the average trans-woman as the girls in fashion magazine are for the average cis-woman.

Why do you expect us to be perfect? Most cis-women are not.
Beauty exists in many forms, it doesn't need to be perfect.

If you ever meet one of us IRL, I hope that you see the whole human in us, not just somebody for your own sexual desire.

I can only speak for myself, not other men on this site, but while I certainly enjoy looking at (and even posting some of the) porn here, my attraction to transwomen goes well beyond the exclusively sexual. And I really dislike this term "passable."

I respect and indeed celebrate your right to be yourself. Very well put. And while I agree with you that "beauty exists in many forms" and that it "doesn't need to be perfect," I do not believe that it is imperfect. If beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder, than so too must be the "perfection" that is assigned to "beauty." So much that is wrong with how people feel about themselves in this world, especially women, is linked directly to the development of a kind of universal concept of what constitutes "perfect beauty." When the world gets away from that, we will all be better off. Personally, I have never found the girls in a fashion magazine (as you say) more beautiful than "real" women -- and by real, I include all transwomen.

By the way, where you write "there is nothing I can do about my length," I think perhaps you mean "height." I, for one cannot imagine finding it unfeminine if you are especially "long" in a certain place. ;)

Maybe but one word:
Photoshop. ;)

Erer seen pics of kate moss after a long-haul flight?
& compared to the photos taken on the shoot just done?
Look like totally different people.
Its all makeup & photoshop.

Everyone watch this video:
http://www.boardsmag.com/screeningro...mercials/3421/

That is precisely how it all works. [smoke & mirrors]
So you, chill out & accept yourself,
& your height, about the same as a super-model
& that's good. :heart:

[QUOTE=Michaela;146532]I know that I will never pass.
But still I have the right to be myself.
Most transgenders and transsexuals have something that give them away.
Why do you expect us to be perfect?

Well Michaela, your post has made some 'food for thought'... especially your heartfelt question 'why do you expect us to be perfect?'
The way I see it, lots of men are exposed to Erotica (and of course porn) at a relatively young age and this may well have a long-term influence on what THEY decide a 'beautiful' girl (or Tgirl) should look like. I've been a 'lurker' at this site for nearly 2 years before I finally decided to jump aboard; I've read lots of posts in many threads and the number of guys who admit having discovered transwomen "while surfing through porn" catches me off-guard...
Thus, one can easily imagine the 50something pervs (like me) who run porn studios hollering to those responsible of the casting, "Alright folks remember: the Hotter the Chicks, the Stiffer the Dicks"! And I'm quite sure the requirements for always prettier Tgirls also prevail in shemale porn.

So my conclusion is rather obvious. The typical, 20something lad who regularly bombards himself with images and movies of cuter-by-the-minute Tgirls will, whether you like it or not Michaela, expect his eventual translover to not stray too far from the 'concept' of beauty that has printed in his brain.
I believe the trick for you will be to find an exception, a guy who'll be able to see the beauty in your soul, your heart, your mind; a guy who's lookin for a PERSON he'll feel good with (regardless the gender); a guy who won't give a shit what people say or think when seen with you by his side...
I wish you the best, Michaela!

i really like Transexual girls who are passable

for me they are the cream of the crop ;)