Dating a transsexual woman.
 

A lot of threads both on this and other sites, talk of the difficulty men face
trying to meet and maybe date a attractive pre-op transsexual female.
This being anything from casual fun through
to a long term / permanent relationship.

The following are my own personal thoughts on the matter,
and as such are certainly not the complete story.
I hope other Ts women and those men who are in relationships with us
contribute their own thoughts and experiences.

Before we look at trans-dating,
may I take you out of trans-land and into cis-gendered land?
Think of that stunning ?Day-One? woman on this months cover of Rustler magazine?
You'd like to date her yes?
Now look at EVERY WOMEN YOU ENCOUNTER during the course of your typical day.
How many of them could be a hot top model? Probably frak all.

See the fabulous trans-women on here and other sites?
Well firstly, most trans don't look anything like that.
We actually cover the full spectrum of appearance,
just as ?Day-One? women do.
Old, young, fat, thin, ugly, beautiful, average, (actually, a lot of average ;))
Plus the big deal-killer for most men:
We will have some remaining male characteristics.
Obviously this will vary hugely in obviousness from trans person to transperson,
but there is always something.
Oh, just say you did date one of the top trans models.
You ok with her plucking prickly hair from her jaw line, some mornings?
Just asking.

Right you guys, here are some of the hard facts about us.
Transsexual females are very rare.
I think numbers come in at around one in six thousand people.
Oh, that's for both pre and post op transsexual females-
Of all ages and looks.
So the chances of you meeting any transsexual female, pre or post op
are pretty rare.
Factor in your Trans-date wish-list (in no particular order)

• We Pass
  {can you handle your family / friends / work colleagues knowing 'That thing'?}
  This objectifies us in itself, but I'll come back to that later.
  Very few trans women truly pass (as in 98%+ of the time)
• We Look attractive / very attractive
• We are single
• And open to the possibility of an ?interaction?, from casual date to a lifetime partner

My friend, you are looking at a very tiny demographic of people you would consider dating.

Trans porn is a fabricated fantasy.
In real life we have bad hair days, sometimes our skin is yuk.
Oh & when we go to bed, most of the time we wear flannel snuggy pants and tops and woolen socks.
The sussys are for shoots or a special treat for our partner.
And partner....A high % of trans women identify as gay.
That means for a lot of trans-women, unless you are female, it's just not gonna happen!

Next,
What exactly are you looking for?
?I want to date a hot shemale?
Well the first thing is that your sentence seems to show a full intent of
sexually objectifying us rather than looking upon us as people.

Now early transitioners are cool about that. It's a validation thing.
?You're a straight guy, you want to fuck me?
?Therefore, I must be a woman?
After a while we get an internal self assurance and then neither want or seek a validation fuck.
That means your desire for us, on it's own, is meaningless..
{We get lots and lots of interested men, all the time}

So, what are you bringing to the party?
I'd think about your appearance and social approach.
Be interesting and engaging.

Having a transsexual history for most of us is not something we are particularly happy about.
A suitor wanting to date us specifically because of that very thing we generally loath about ourselves,
is just not a good thing.
{It's a bit like you saying:?You suffer from deep suicidal depression, I like that in a woman, lets date?}
We see ourselves as female, which of course we are.
It would be nice if a person wishes to date us for who we are as a person rather than because we are trans.

Last year, a good ts friend of mine {you will know her from some of her porn shoot pics on this site & others}
played with the idea of de-transition, becoming a man again.
I asked her {straight identifying} male partner of five years,
what would happen to their relationship?
He replied that he then would simply be in a gay male relationship.
I asked my man the same question. He gave the same answer.
How many of you men could give that answer?
(That's slightly unfair as a question, for you the reader, who are just exploring the possibility of trans-dating; but bear it in mind)

Finally, Transsexual. Spot the first bit of the word.
This means we are in transition. What you see may well be what you get, initially.
But I guarantee you now that, six/eighteen/60 months on
and this person may well only vaguely be like the person you first met.
And will you be ok about dating a person, where that person rapidly changes in lots of ways.
It really is very difficult for the man.

And the penis.
Are you really only want to date us because we are a female with a penis?
Most of us will have Sex Reassignment Surgery SRS.
Will you stay with us?
Or was it in the end, only about our cock?

I've posted this several times before.
It's a personal insight from both my male partner
and my my own.

How do you actually get to meet a transsexual woman?

Most Transsexual women meet partners who know our history.
Maybe they knew us before we transitioned.
Maybe they ?read? us
Maybe through work, where gossip outed us.
Though we mostly meet though trans friendly spaces:
be it a Tg forum /chat room,
trans club/bar,
or from a group of friends and friends of friends...where the suitor had the heads-up on our past,
or they used to date a friend of ours who is also a Transsexual woman...
And so on.

My man said the easiest way to date a Transsexual woman, is to interact with us on trans boards.
Post on areas of common interest. Avoid sex topics.
See if you click.
Assess which Transsexual women are slightly deranged
and which are very deranged
(Accept that to a degree we are all bonkers)
And private message anyone you find interesting.
Later, suggest phone / social contact.
If later, things move on to friendship and then romance,cool.
My man wooed me for six months after our first meeting before I relented.


Oh, be prepared to put lots of time and ? or $:
Think flights, hotels, food, car rental
Because of our rarity, you will probably have to put a lot of effort into travel and resulting costs.
My man lives 1400 miles from me,
Yep, he had to go that far just to meet for an afternoon, to see if we would be friends.
Will you make that sort of effort?

Thankyou for this thread, Jodie. You have provided a lot of very good information.

Jodie, thanks for your post.

I'm in love with a transsexual woman. It's a coincidence that she's trans, and I wasn't looking for love. I met her as a transsexual (by which I mean I knew she was TS), but my attraction was something completely different. She will likely have SRS. I don't care. I'm in love. She knows how I feel. Most likely, nothing will ever come of it. The complications are enormous, and not just the sort you write about, Jodie. There are all sorts of other complications that you find in relationship irrespective of the gender identity of the parties involved.

I would, by the way, answer that question about the relationship if she "reverted" to being a man exactly the same way. Who cares? I love the person she is; I love the person she was; I love the person she wants to become. They are one and the same person (yes, I know there are lots of "issues). The package (no pun intended) doesn't matter.

"It's a bit like you saying:”You suffer from deep suicidal depression, I like that in a woman, lets date”"

HA!!! I'm totally thiefing this line!

I'd also add that so many of us have our walls up due to real or perceived poor treatment by past dates or those of our friends (and our own first-hand observations of men pre-transition). It takes some doing to get past the damage the past however many men have done. Since lots of gals (myself included unfortunately) are pretty willing to chalk up any perceived slight as a deal-breaker or harbinger of bad things to come.

You go right ahead. :)

I hope you have a great Seasons holiday & I look forward to more of your posts both here and On Laugh RioT.

One thing, though. Some of us were never into vagina in the first place.
I look at it and get all grossed out. Only girls with the vag I can see myself with are intersexed girls, which I have dated one of once.

I tried, but I just don't like 'em, yet I am not into dudes....only if the boy's very, very, very feminine.
So, if someone has an idea what sorta sexual orientation I have could be of some use on what to call me.

Boy, I'm sure an interesting case, yes? :p

Er, that would be Bisexual

I have to be honest, I am guilty of objectifying 'shemales'. Mainly because I only see them in a sexual context. If I applied this approach to women I would be appalled at my own attitude, but somehow don't think about it in the same way when applied to 'shemales'.

I don't know what the answer is, I'm just being honest. :blush:

In general when it comes to people I like to be liked for the human that I am. Not for the car I drive or the part of town I live in. I enjoy knowing a friend or date just likes me because the chemistry is there. ;)

Though some of us have too many friends, and nothing else, that it's embarrassing.:p

Thank you Jodie, for saying what needed to be said.

Knowledge
 

The most insightful info on dating TG females that I've ever come across. Very enlightening. Thank you Jodie. Be well and happy new year!

Well, I would very much like to date a transwoman. But sadly, I can't seem to find anyone interested in me on here... :'(

My problem is that all the good ones live in another state or country.

They seem to avoid inner states like a plague.:(

Least you got 'em. Here, in Michigan, we have none. :censored:

Really?
Do you have Google over there in Michigan? :p
'Michigan transsexual support' About 813,000 results (0.21 seconds)

transgendermichigan.org
This one is a shit load of links to trans in Michigan
Students.support.transgendered.classmate.for.homec oming.king
IQ test

Transsexual men and women exist due to genetics and hormone exposure/timing
in foetal development in the womb.
It is not a lifestyle choice nor geographical location dependent.
As such there will be exactly the same % of trans in Michigan's population,
as there is everywhere else in the world
{read that as quite rare, but present}
ifge.org links

Support groups aren't what I'd call a great place to look for chicks.
Would not places where one could party be a much better choice?

Than how come 90%+ of all the girls on forums, such as these, seem to only reside in either New York or California?

Good point.

This is a porn site.
Almost all ts women have no connection with the adult industry.
Very very few of them would even look at a site like this.
A high % of ts women on this site are connected with the adult industry,
almost all of which is in major cities.
Therefore, this site is not representative of the geographical distribution of transsexual women.

Please tell me you knew this.

Anyway, as you are so keen in wanting to date a transsexual female
who has the looks and body of any generic ts porn star,
And are convinced they only reside in California & New York
Why don't you move to California or new york?

I mean, if you want to go skying,
its a bit silly to hang out in the Arizona desert...

move-new york city

There's no guarantee that the listed locations are their true places of residence. Perhaps they are a little leery about giving out too much personal information to complete strangers and reserve that for the people that they learn to trust?:)

Nah. That's too reasonable shadows.

thank you Jodie for your notes. it completely fits to real portrait of my transgendered gf.

and i want to add some notes from another side. you girls have a really strong personality but at the same time i never had so huge tendency to carry about somebody as about you. this very specific combination of weakness and power is the key point of your attraction.

yesterday i watched the Beautiful Boxer movie. it's so about it!

thank you for your existence!

Jodie is right, most of the gals on sites like this are connected to an industry that is based (in the US) on the coasts. There is also the perception that some states are safer or easier to live in than others. There is difficulty in may areas accessing trans-related health care or even a community for support. Job protections, such as they are, are more likely to include trans people in the North East and West Coast (in the US) - less likely in the South or the Mid-west.

The reality is, we are all over (but probably tend to live in larger cities). I mean I'm in Ohio and I have trans friends who I see regularly in my city.

I like to think this is true for more men who like gals like me - but it seems rather rare. Thank you for mentioning this, as it is one of those things that I find commonly over-looked when people talk about their attractions to us.

thank you
 

i dunno. it's rather strange that you think that such men are rare. i believe that care about who are also strong enough to sound pretty tempting for a real men. it's kind of like not just be a man, its about to be superman. is't it?

did you have a chance to wathc the movie i've mentioned above? it's probably rated as b-movie but i rather call it contemporary cinematography. must2see:respect:

You are one of those rare ones in the inner states. I've only know of ONE in Michigan....and she was a total ice queen, and to add insult to injury, had the sex drive of a clam. And as I mentioned before, I've seen other TS here in my region, but unfortunately, looked exactly like Jackie Gleason in a drag (Hell, 75% of the ggirls here look like that, too).
All the ones I wanna find are so far and few, or they are already taken. :turnoff::broken::p And the dating sites are made out of epic failure.

So, so far, it's like being tossed into a wood chipper, just that one has two options: Being thrown in head first or feet first.:frown:

Your generalizations grow more and more tiresome with each post.

Guess what. One of the most beautiful transwomen I know is from the backwoods of South Carolina. Is she a complete anomaly? Of course not.

Has it occurred to you that it might be your perspective? Or maybe that you ought to move? Of course, without a radical change in the perspective you've adopted (it borders on misanthropy, in my view), you'd probably see the beauties you think teem along the coasts in the same way you seem to see most everyone around you in Michigan.

Move to Transylvania
;)

Okay, Jodie, if you're going to post the same thing in more than one thread, I guess I have to as well. Here goes:

I hear the transsexuals in Transylvania get the best "wood".

...

It's a Latin joke. Look it up. ;)

And you might get a visit from Dr. Frank-N-Furter.;)

There are no easy answers for either guys or gals, and I can only speak from my own perspective. For gals like me finding decent guys is like skipping rope in a mine-field. You eventually become cautious to the point you either give up or you are so used to looking for "warning signs" you'll see them even where they don't exist.

You are correct - trans dating sites are massively bad.

I'll also say that I talked to guys from NYC and LA. They have problems with the gals in their areas as well ... *shrug*

Um...
?Quantum materiae materietur marmota monax si marmota monax materiam
possit
materiari? ?

Indeed. Love your new avatar, Jodie.

Well, if we're gonna use rope references, for me finding decent girls is like pushing a car uphill with a rope. Trust me, I am cautious, the past 17 years made me an expert at caution. :respect:

Yes, Trans-dating sites are so made of epic failure. :broken: :turnoff:
URNotalone ranks as the WORST of all of them, since I break that site into three distinct groups:

Alpha: The girls with "NO MEN!" on their profiles
Beta: The Rosie O'Donnells looking for men
Gamma (see, we're going way back now! ;) ): Creepy, middle aged men with a pantyhose fetish.

Not fun. :p

At least tell the fellows in NYC and LA that it's still better where they are, because if they see one hottie and they get shot down by her....no biggy, since NYC and LA only has about ten million more hotties, they seem to grow on trees over in those regions.....however, in South Eastern Michigan (quiet, smc :p), it's a little more difficult because if one's shot down by a cute one.....one only has about ten more....at the very most, and you got no idea if those ones are taken or lesbian...and they usually are. So, unless those dudes you talked in NYC and LA actually WANT corn-fed country bumpkins and/or 300 pound sistas, tell them to quit whining! :frown:

I will second this. You look like you are thinking of new ways to be mischievious.:)

WHINING? Give me a fuckin' break. Who are you to accuse anyone else of whining?

Ok,
going with your {totally wrong*} premise
that the vast majority of hot single pre-op Transsexual women
live in LA or NY,
why do you stay in South Eastern Michigan?
Is it the weather?
or caring for an elderly relative?
or do you have a really good career there and moving would compromise this?

or just maybe, you are married or in a long term relationship
but are bored and want a (secret) Trans-variant partner
{for whenever you can slip away from the wife for a couple of hours}?

Seriously, why do you stay there?



*actually so very wrong, that it's brimming over with wrongability**
so much so that you e are in fact a Smeg-head***


**stolen from Red Dwarf


***Also stolen from Red Dwarf

I'm stuck in Michigan because of a little something I have called MY JOB. Shit, I'm one of the few people in my neighborhood to still actually have some type of income that has nothing to do with unemployment, social security or food stamps. And in these economic times, one can't simply go, "Hey, I'll buy me a place out in California and/or New York!", this is not the 1990's. :p And yes, I was helping to care for my dad, whom I lost this past summer.

And nope....I was smart enough to NOT get married. Besides, I already stated, I am through with ggirls. And I am not one of those little pussies who wants a TS girl, but don't want anyone to know. Find me a nice one, and she better buy anew pair of shoes, cause we'd be going out each night. Anyone who knows me knows that I hate secrecy in general.

So, once I have a nice chunk of $ saved up, or the cost of living in those states goes down, I'll be more than happy to leave. And to those married guys/girls you mentioned, who are miserable and bored with their white picket fence life, I only got one word for them.......suckers. XD

And to SMC, I'm saying those guys in the coastal regions don't know how good they got it....hot babes grow on trees over there, not here. They only got about 10,000,000 to browse through. If they had only a very limited few to pick through, I'd say they can be as irritated as I am, but they don't.

Ok thank you for that.
I respect your reasons for staying.
Moving to LA would be a huge mistake for you
as you would ending up throwing a good job for a fantasy which is wrong. You would get to LA and find Ts's as rare as in your home town.

That leaves you two options which will become one.
Stay where you are,
Wait for global warming to cause sea levels and climate to alter. Soon, Michigan will be the new LA.
And you know what, you still won't see any Ts's there.

Reason. You only want to date ts who appears day to day, indistinguishable from a biofemale.
There may be a thousand Ts like that already
in your part of town. {makes you think, yes?}


Anyway, I know a lot of trans women here in the UK.
What's the name of the English Ts you have the hots for, and what town is she in?
I figure that if you are aware of her then it's 85% sure I have her number and 36% probability she is already on my speeddial.
I can put in a good word for you.

You say yo got all the answers, then how do I meet a nice one, and remember, I'm through with ggirls. and you still need to prove to me they are rare in those places, since on all the forums I am on, 98% of the nice transgirls I know are IN those places.

Also, I think the whole global warming thing is a crock. And no, I am not a right-wing lunatic.

She has not been online for over a month. She's not on MSN and no e-mail replies.

ANTI-SCIENCE MARCHES ON!

1. 98% of the girls Trogdor knows from Internet forums are in a particular place. Using an Internet forum as a statistical measure of anything is ANTI-SCIENTIFIC.

2. "The whole global warming thing is a crock." Perhaps, but GLOBAL CLIMATE CHANGE is not ... unless you're ANTI-SCIENCE.

And you clearly are, because you keep repeating the same ridiculous percentages that Jodie and others point out to you AS ridiculous. That you are ANTI-SCIENCE ain't rocket science.

Thank goodness that the entire world doesn't run on "facts" that are expressly based on the individual experiences of people. Imagine how tough circumnavigating the GLOBE would be ... among other things. Trogdor, have you been to China? I'm guessing probably not. How can you be sure it exists. Those pictures on the TV might be made up by someone who wants you to think there's a China. (If you've been to China, substitute somewhere you haven't been.)

I was talking to Jodie, not you.

On the issue of Trogdor, Jodie and I seem to speak in one voice with two different accents. Besides, if you don't want others to chime in, write PMs.

The only honest way I know works,
is to transition. [not too useful, sorry.]
I just got home from a good friend, a Ts. She showed me her breast augmentation results now they've settled down. surgery was six months ago. {nice nipples}
Oh and I gave her a make up mirror.
And we drank tea, and talked about life in inner city London.

I've no idea how Joe public gets to meet lots of Ts women.
Especially as they clearly wouldn't be in the highly secret Ts-guild.

As you have contact with Ts women on the usa coasts
or at least are aware of them,
why don't you try to engage those you find interesting, in PM's
to see if you like that person. Then see where it goes.

What;s her name and location?

Trogdor, on a more serious note
re-read my starting post in this thread.
It really answers all your questions in a general way.

I don't think anyone can add anything to that
which would help you in any useful way.

You are going to have to find your own answers and I hope
a peace with yourself.

Yes, that does not help me, too much.

City life, how I miss that.

Over here, there appears to be such guilds.

That's the problem, I do, but long distance relationships are always tricky, plus the fact it does not guarantee success. And like with all my attempts at relationships, something always ends up going wrong, like them disappearing forever and a day, and without any quick "I'm gonna be away for quite some time" courtesy message.

What;s her name and location?[/QUOTE]

I'll PM you that, shortly.

Jodie my dear, take that stupid cup away from your face, you are a pretty woman don't hide it

Now when are we going to Del Aziz I'm starving

H xx

Dear "sweettsuk" {if that is your real name}
This thread is my take on transsexual females reality on dating
and how the reality of which affects both said Ts's and those who wish to go out with them.

I assume that your posting on this thread indicates
that you are interested in dating a trans-woman, yes?

iagree
 

jodie you are absolutely right. i do hate looking at trans women as anything other than what they are, women. i do have a fantasy about women with a penis. as much as i would like to act on this im very strained. i cant move to the coast and it will be hard for me to find a good trans woman, as i am in the military. whatever benefits i would get would not transfer to any trans partner i may ever get. for the time being all i am looking for is casual interactions and possibly in the future a relationship. I have had many bad relationships where the woman has either left me for not wanting sex or bc there is a better looking guy they want. im not perfect, and i want to exp as much of this "trans dating" as i can without looking for a relationship where i will more than likely end up alone. Initially i am from the south so finding a trans woman will be hard for me in my home town. i hate ungendering, which i have realized by my past posts that i have done that.

Please everyone, understand that in my attempt to fulfill a fantasy, im looking for certain qualities, trust, respect, and above all else love.:innocent:

I guess being in the military may be another layer of complication for you.
I'd prob seak out trans support and social groups on the net and interact there.
Additionally I'd seek trans social events.
A lot of Ts move through things and thus either no longer need trans friendly social spaces or they never went to tranny places in their past.
However stealth is lonely and sometime we go back to tranny social gatherings,
be they support groups, clubs, or gatherings.

So there is a suggestion.

marriage
 

i would marry another TS or a lesbian girl but a man would really have to be something special for me to marry him.

i would date a transexual lady whether she was pre op or post op sadly the only ones i see are on dating sites with most of the ladies overseas and of course they have many suitors wanting them sadly some for only sex or they use them for some reason. i will be totally commited to the lady and will always treat her as the lady she is.

Unfortunately, porn sites including this one foster the view that most transsexuals are prostitutes to be used for personal pleasure. It is a sad situation. On a more positive note there is an increased public awareness of the transsexual community and efforts are being made to encourage respect.
Best Wishes.

Great forum here! I read a lot of it and will come back to read more. Thanks for all the posts.

Dating a transsexual woman.
 

I want to date a transexual woman, but certain things have to be click before we would become a couple. She should be attractive, sexy and very feminine. She should be hung ;) be able to cum also be open to try new things. Which are sexual fantasies you live only once so experience. I am now between two transexual girls, they both are really attractive.One is a bit more attractive then the other, but I will not choose her cause there is no connection and no further interest.The second one I have not approached yet with the things that interest me in a relationship with a transexual woman. As soon I tell her I hope all things will work out ;)

Actually a great post that I enjoyed very much. It puts some things into perspective, and helps to show what a transsexual woman goes through. With supply and demand what it is, and the huge amount of work that goes into a transition, I'd think a tgirl should expect to have her pick of guys and get treated like a queen.

I do still think it's a little much to say "was it in the end, only about our cock?" Many women obviously are going to want to get SRS, and there should be no trouble accepting that. Still, physical attraction is an important part of any relationship. If it wasn't, then we'd have no trouble ever even meeting a long term partner. You could break it all the way down to the point that we're basically dating computers, if our bodies didn't matter at all. I think it's just as fair for a man to have an attraction to a woman with a penis, as it is for a woman to want SRS so she feels like her transition is complete. In the end, it seems some people just want different things, and that's completely ok.

I'll totally help pluck those stubborn jawline hairs.

Sounds to me like you're more interested in sex by your prerequisites for TS to be "hung" and "able to cum." What if you met a girl that you clicked with, but after being on hormones for a few more years, she loses the ability to cum? Guess that would be a deal breaker for you. I find it odd that you stipulate "very feminine" alongside "hung" (which by definition is not very feminine).

Personally, when I dated...My interests were more about things like personality, interests, etc. I think you are delusional about the sort of "relationship" you are after.

Jodie I loved your perception and thoughts and it made a lot of sense to me,

I know I am a bit late to join the thread but better late than never.

Glad to see some of the older posters are active again. Looks like some of the posts are getting better. :respect: Maybe I'll stay afterall. But there is still a "skewed" perspective on dating (and general disrespect toward transwomen) as far as I'm concerned. You DO know it works "both ways."

You may "fantasize about" a blonde 25 year old "ladyboy" with a 9" cock and no sexual inhibitions ready to jump into bed with you on the first date but ask yourself seriously, what do you really have to offer her? Not much as it appears in some of your profile pics, avatars, and user names. Do you really think you are "god's gift to women?"

And a "pic of your dick"? Why??? To show off how "big" you are? Are you tying to impress me? Other guys? And don't tell me what a "tough guy" you are or that you own 291 guns or know "Krav Maga." Or participate in UFC. I know a thing or two about that stuff. A lot more than you do. I wish I'd never started that "Self Defense" thread. It turned into a "pissing contest" with one member even accusing me of being a "liberal commie" and threatenting to shoot me in the face. "Liberal Commie?" Me? :lol::lol::lol:

And yes I will shoot back (or first). Sorry... Nothing personal. I just don't take well to being threatened. The "tough guy act" ain't gonna work with me. And most people will think you are just a troll or an asshole. And the ones who used to start arguments. My God! Smc was very restrained compared to the way I would have been.

But "pics of your dick." Most women I know don't wish to recieve stuff like that. Especially early in a relationship. I've never sent any woman I've been interested in a "pic of my dick." My wife had a younger friend (really beautiful girl by the way but just divorced and "desperate" according to my wife) who sent a "tits" picture to a guy she just met. She never heard from him again.

As my wife once commented on the "personal" ads on TLB:

So I think you would be better off getting involved with LGBT and even Gay Pride events and workshops. Volunteer. Go to a bar that is known for having a gay and transgender clientele. Introduce yourself like you would to any woman. You'll get rejected sometimes but then... all it takes is the right one. You (and she) will be a lot better off and have the beginnings of a true relationship on which to build. Who knows you might even get lucky that night. :drool:

My post is not addressed to anyone in particular. Just based on things I've read for 10+ years on TLB. If we could only get rid of that shit and those users I think we'd have a pretty good site. I'd love to continue as a member. But not like it's been. Who knows. Maybe even some of the "old timers" will come back. :respect: