Politics here is just as bad with the left full of self righteous indignation at the right for doing the same things that the left did when they formed the government. The left leaning media doesn?t help the situation either because they continually criticize the right while neglecting to mention that the left did the same things, only more often.

Attack ads against opponents are all too common now. No politician ever discusses issues anymore. They are all like a bunch of children on one long temper tantrum. One group of politicians accuses a second group of lying who accuse a third group of lying who accuse the first group of lying.

There is no leadership in politics anymore. No one is in it for the good of the country and the people. They are all there to feed at the public trough, ensure that they and their buddies have a regular paycheck, and cause never ending headaches and problems for the citizens that they are supposed to serve (this is a bit of an exaggeration as some politicians are altruistic, just not enough are). This applies to all the parties and not any particular one.

Would you say this applies to Barack Obama?

C-MIN:

Firstly, I'm in the middle with a view to the right and the left, and there is a big slant to the right in combativeness. Schultz is a far-left guy that I stopped watching after 6 weeks, but he is no match for Beck, Limbaugh, Hannity, and Levin. He's behind them in 5th place for over the top. Olbermann, Maddow and O'Reilly are behind the big 5. Mathews and Van Sustern are the fairest of the lot, and ALL on both sides are biased by nature, which shows in their wording.

Secondly, my interest in politics cannot be satisfied by honest debate, because that requires 2 sides to be honest. So, I look for weak arguments to feast on, because I'm offered no other choice. I find whose-side-are-you-on arguments to be offensive. It should be a debate of facts, and not a charlatan sporting event.

Thirdly, I wasn't trying to get you to admit something; I was pointing out an argument that stated the other side does it: equal.

Personally, I don't care who is in The WH from Conse 'Pub to Lib Dem, but just do the job. Granted, I'm more left of center than ever after 8 years of The Clinton-Ken Starr Admin., after 8 years of Bush-Cheney with 118 questionable actions, and after 1 year of daily attacks on Obama. Obama has gotten more in 1 year than Bush got in 8 years, and it's not just the pols. It's the right media, and citizens.

Example: Don't tell me we are threatened by a country that is militarily 60% of what it was 12 before, when its army couldn't surrender fast enough. That that is more of a priority than getting bin Laden, and you expect me to trust your judgement as president? That means whether you're Clinton, Bush or Obama, I don't want to hear what I can see thru. This is just me, which is why Palin is so unappealing to me.

As far as Obama's questionable actions, I'll name 8.

TRACY:

1. 50 Gitmo prisoners who'll be imprisoned for life without charge, and/or with tarnished evidence (waterboarding).

2. Wiretapping continues.

3. No Wall Street restrictions for a year.

4. Pushing for bi-partisanship with pols who opening brag they will negotiate in poor faith to slow down and stop legislation only.

5. Upping The Afgan War with more troops after 8 years.

6. The Iraq War not ending soon enough.

7. Not prosecuting war crimes above the legalized torture of Yoo

8. and below is very quiet.

1 is not having enough info to find a better action.
2 is not talked about to show a change has been made.
3 is now heading in the right direction, but it's way too early.
4 is what's wrong with politics, and I feel it may be more than a 1-person job for anybody.
5 might be the right choice, but need to know more of what's going on.
6 seems to be slow, but that could be just me.
7 might be the best option for the country, or not.
8 appears to be a little too quiet.


I only say 118 questionable Bush actions, some are no longer questionable, because none are prosecuted.

So, Conse 'Pubs, bring a crap argument and I'll bring a mop.

TAL

There's no argument, the right-media is letting BO have it. But at the same time, BO does things that should prompt an objective journalist to ask probing follow up questions and the left-media just lets it go. Also, the administration wants to (sometimes demands to) preview questions whenever possible. That's not how it's supposed to work.

She's unappealing to me too. Politically that is. Other than that, she's kinda hot.

This is a tough one. Presumably they only wiretap questionable people, and it has netted results. On the other hand, they could wiretap anyone. But do they? Who knows?

That's that free market thing.

Polls show that the american people are against health care and out of control government spending. There is no one in congress with voting power to represent these people who are the majority. So republicans use the only tool they have which is to slow down or stop legislation.

I'm not sure about this one because I've never heard from BO what our goal in Afghanistan is, or what his larger picture of the war on terror is, if any.

I'm fine with this war ending because we have for the most part won it.

huh?

below what?

From what I've seen there are multitudes of gripes attributed to Bush, when what's really going on isn't so black and white. And also things like Abu Ghraib being blamed on Bush when it was actually service men & women who committed those acts on their own.

And this summarizes my thoughts pretty well about the start of the Iraq war...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5p-qIq32m8

These are ideological selections, and the MSM doesn't condemn Obama for not governing like Bush or a conservative, which is what the right does.


That free-market thing happened when they deregulated, and they got 1929 again. If there were no rules & regulations, greed would reign supreme. It's happened twice, and today gaming the system makes it even more necessary. Greed needs to be policed to the point of protecting those who can get screwed even if they do everything right.

If it was only health care, it would look legit, but it's only yes on Bush's policies continued.

My point was that it has been made clear, that even if you give them everything they want, they'll vote no.

Not prosecuting war crimes above (covered by) the legalized torture of John Yoo, and below (not covered by) is very quiet.

Waterboarding has been considered a war crime for years, except to Bush-Cheney.

I use my own list, and Obama is on track for 64, compared to 118 for Bush. If half prove to be true, that would make 59 for Bush.

The Bush ones are a combo of Bush & Cheney, and there are none for Biden, yet.



TRACY:

My view of a questionable action is one where a poor selection was made. If a better choice was available at the time, it was a bad selection. If it turns out to be the best of bad choices, then it was a good selection.

These are not ideological-based actions, and do not favor either side. It does include actions that are or have a good chance of being known by the pres. or VP, and could have been stopped.

Of Bush's 118, some have proven on target; some are still open; but none have been validated, yet.


TAL

Obama is an idiot who has no concept of a free society. the only opinion he seeks is his own and is the most dishonest and deceitful president we have ever had. I for one am sick of his lies and his wasteful spending policies that are going to drive us into a debt we will be unable to pay. I pity our childern and what he is doing to our values

Palin in 2012?
 

And your opinion of Palin is?

If a Republican got elected, we would still have been here debating about how bad things are turning out. The government cannot admit that they cannot control the future, if they PANIC would ensue:p

Palin will not be the republican front runner.

I doubt she will ever become president. I share some of her views but like obama she lacks any experience to be President. hopefully those that voted for obama will remember how it was pointed out numerous times he never had a real job and was absent or failed to vote the majority of time he was in the senate. so he obviously lacked integrity and commitment to those that elected him.

the spend at all cost political hacks we have in office now are not listening to the american people and hopefully we can get rid of them in 2010. what ever happened to "We the People" . have Obama lovers forgotten why they elected him in the first place? the independants sure understand now how much of a liar and phoney he turned out to be and how until recently (only when forced to) the congress and senate didn't care one bit or listen to the american people just rubber stamp king obama and drive the country into socialism.

like Margret Thatcher once said. " the thing about socialism is that eventually they run out of other people money".

Well I for one worked hard for what i have and have no intention of following obamas plan to "redistribute the wealth to those who who only want wants given to them so they become more reliable on big gov"t.

I like freedom of choice and then living by the consequences of my own actions; be they good or bad, that is what American is all about, and what I have faught for during my 26 years serving my country in the Military.

TRACY:

That wasn't the question. It was his opinion of Palin period.

TAL

Set your GPS to "nowheresville" and you will eventually wind up in a small community of all white people, all republican, and no doors will be locked because there's no crime, and everybody knows everybody, and life is as simple as family values.

I guess you're for transsexuals serving openly in the military then, right?

Tea Party
 

Partial piece by Stewart Watley, Huffington Post



Though the movement claims to have no defined leadership, there are public figures and entities who nevertheless carry that mantle, which has led to perhaps its greatest irony: A portion of the American populace who carries a populist banner against the coddling of greedy bankers is led by some of the country's most cynical and base profiteers.
When the movement was christened last April for a large tax day protest, it was derived wholesale from the efforts of a registered corporate lobbyist and a right-leaning cable news network, whose president recently pointed out that it's all about ratings. At the Tea Party's national convention last weekend, its keynote speaker was a former governor who quit midterm in order to peddle a book that she didn't write, but for which she collects most of the royalties. If this were Iran's Green Movement, these would be the people slinging marked-up green headbands on the street corner.
Of course, the Tea Party is not without its whistleblowers. The $500 per plate entry fee to last week's convention almost led to it being canceled altogether. But the exodus of reasonable elements will only homogenize the movement further towards a particularly polarizing worldview that opens itself to continued profit-driven exploitation.
In Authoritarianism & Polarization in American Politics, a revealing work of political science published last year that unfortunately went somewhat unnoticed, Marc J. Hetherington and Jonathan D. Weiler describe a specific worldview -- authoritarianism -- which they argue lies at the heart of political polarization in modern American politics. (It should be noted: their use of the term is not related to the more quotidian and overly negative connotation associated with despotic regimes; rather, it describes a particular lens through which certain people view the world, based on a wide range of scholarly work spanning the fields of psychology, sociology, political science, and other cognitive sciences.)
According to Hetherington and Weiler, authoritarians tend to rely more on emotion and instinct in decision-making, view politics in black and white, resent confusion or ambiguity in the social order, and are suspicious of specific groups who they believe could alter that order (typically gays and immigrants). The difference between authoritarians and nonauthoritarians, according to the authors, becomes far more pronounced during tumultuous economic or social periods when there are more perceived "threats". During such times, authoritarians in particular lose accuracy motivation and, "become much less interested than nonauthoritarians in seeking information that [is] balanced in its approach, and much more interested in pursuing one-sided information that reinforc[es] existing beliefs." Or in other words, they are highly susceptible to misinformation campaigns, the likes of which pervaded the health care reform debate last summer.
Most every characteristic of an authoritarian worldview lends itself well to the impassioned rhetoric of the Tea Party movement and the shrewd players operating behind the scenes and atop the soap box. The movement's overly simplified, often-confused solutions to complex problems align with authoritarians' Manichean worldview. That Tom Tancredo's anti-immigrant laced speech at last weekend's convention was well received comes as no surprise. And that this is the group who so often embraces proven falsehoods and spin-narratives to defend its anti-administration agenda should speak for itself with regards to accuracy motivation.
Despite criticism it receives, the Tea Party continues to be praised as a political force. It is loud, passionate, and generally unconcerned with pesky things like facts or reasoned, practical solutions to the country's problems. This bodes ill for 2010's political environment, and it is a shameful representation of what constitutes an American political or social movement. While the Tea Party may alienate some who see it for the profit-machine that it is, others who share the fearful, intolerant authoritarian worldview that it is increasing coalescing around will be lured in and pitted against the very people in power who could actually help them. That this movement has grown political legs is too bad, and by Hetherington and Weiler's account, it means even more polarization is yet to come.

RANDY:

Accurate motto!!



TAL

Peace at last
 

Sounds great doesn't it :yes:

Ahhh yes, but it was my answer ;)

Sounds peaceful. Hopefully it's within an hour of a ski resort too.

Cute, but completely backwards.

who really cares anymore I'm retired now

obama still is an idiot and we can't afford his socialistic stance and his hate for individual liberties and freedoms if he continues to apologize and bow to foreign contries for America being free, then he diserves to be impeached

I'm done with this topic

Miss me yet? lol

Let's try this, maybe I can get through.....


Odama is Go0b

Yeah, and that Obama guy too

Doomed!
 

New York Times, Paul Krugman

February 10, 2010, 10:59 am Well, you guys are going to have a hard time accusing him of being a Socialist after this.:frown::censored:

I'd say Bill Clinton was at his greatest BECAUSE of Wall St. I recall that all the guys at my office who had Thrift Savings Accts were on schedule to retire as full fledged Millionaires, then Bush came in.
When Democrats talk about helping "poor" people, the poor people react like republicans because poor people don't think of themselves as poor people, they think of themselves as "working" people.
There's not a true American alive who doesn't secretly want to be rich as a Wall St Banker. You don't get rich getting money, you get rich saving money. And for that you need Banks.

RANDY:

Sorry, you're wrong. They will forever call him a socialist, like they do with FDR. If they still are asking for a birth certificate with Jeremiah Wright and Bill Ayers still as open issues also, you can forget them stopping anything. I'm surprised they aren't blaming the stock market on him lately.

We bashed Bush for torture, The Iraq War, Katrina, Abu Gharib, bin Ladin's freedom, Gitmo and others. So, social security, Medicare, unemployment comp. and other government programs are socialism. And all socialism is Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Commie, FDR, Lenin and others. We are entitled to an opinion, but not facts.

TAL

Yeah Randy. Don't you know that all those issues have been resolved? He did bring his original birth certificate. It has been conclusively shown that Jeremiah Wright doesn't hate whites, capitalism or apple pie, and that at no time during BO's 20 years attending Wright's services did Wright ever utter a disparaging word about America. And come on... Bill Ayers was cleared of any wrong doing and he's a sweet old school teacher. And yet STILL republicans bring up these issues.

Actually the whole thing's a strawman argument. It's TAL who likes to bring up these issues. But I will continue to bring up the socialist direction BO is taking us.

Ok class... from Webster:
Socialism
1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods
2 a : a system of society or group living in which there is no private property b : a system or condition of society in which the means of production are owned and controlled by the state
3 : a stage of society in Marxist theory transitional between capitalism and communism and distinguished by unequal distribution of goods and pay according to work done

TAL
for definitions 1 and 2b. Do you deny that BO has tried to grow the government, and incorporate banks, insurance companies, car companies and health care into the government?

definitions 2a and 3: He's limited CEO salaries. He's raising taxes on the wealthy and lowering taxes on the poor & middle class while directing taxes to the poor via welfare. He hasn't gone all the way on this yet, but do you deny that BO advocates "sharing the wealth"?

TRACY,

Did you miss this:

So, social security, Medicare, unemployment comp. and other government programs are socialism. And all socialism is Stalin, Mao, Hitler, Commie, FDR, Lenin and others.


I said it was socialism, and it's been here since 1932.

All socialism is prevalent in bad countries: UK, Canada, France, Germany, etc.

The difference is that there is good and bad socialism, like there is good and bad capitalism.


Do you buy the Obama birth certificate if not every one of his opponents gets an original copy hand delivered from Hawaii by their governor, and if one opponent doesn't get that other-than-special treatment, his citizenship is still in question.

Don't tell me you've accepted a copy on an Internet web site?

Usually Conse 'Pubs will stick to their facts unless they are questioned strongly.


RANDY:

Aren't you OUTRAGED that Obama mispronounced the word corpsman 4 times?

FOUR times!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do you believe the GAUL of The Libs to point out that Newt said that the shoe bomber was American?

TAL

Unemployment
 

The rich take care of their own. The poor bastards that do the work are out in the cold.

Miss me??
 

G W Bush who?

RANDY:


My answer is YES, and I like you being away.



TAL

Sorry you don't have a sense of humor.:(

RANDY:

I wasn't trying to be funny, when I said I like missing him.

I liked your humor though.


TAL

Look for stage II of the "Good cop, bad cop" Obama administration, starting with the 50+1 reconciliation on Health Care. Watch Obama take the leash off Rahm Emanuel this election year. Democrats will take a hit this November, but by 2012 people will be going back to work. The Health Care Bill is Obama's Iraq War. If it is a success, he'll be a genius. If it is a disaster, he'll be an idealist fool. Send in Emanuel to make sure it works.

If it is a success it will be the first time a government program is well managed and efficient. Besides... Obama wouldn't use reconciliation (or the nuclear option) to pass health care. That's against everything the democrats stand for.

Here BO calls the nuclear option...
So I don't know why the prospect of Obama using the nuclear option, or reconciliation is even coming up.

Medicare is 44 years old, time for a colonoscopy. The entire medical profession is based upon how to charge ten bucks for a Viagra pill. It doesn't matter what this Bill says, it's going to be rewritten a hundred times over the next generation anyway, what matters is that the Medical Profession starts healing American Citizens. Once people see that, the Republicans will never be able to take it away.

Non-Believers prepare to gaze in wide wonder next week as Obama seperates the RED SEA and lets his People go-go to the USA of the FUTURE.
"We have here only five loaves of bread and two fish," said the Republicans.
"All shall be fed" said Obama. And it was so.

Watch for Obama 2010 Election strategy after Healthcare is passed. Go HARD after Corporations and the Supreme Court Ruling that allows unlimited Corporate Donations. It should be interesting to see which side the Republicans line up with.

I was kind of hoping he'd go campaign for democratic candidates out there. :lol:

Patiently waiting for Tracy to abandon the party of "they can't do anything either" and get on the Obama Bus. A future where all Americans can get a Hand up. not a Hand out.

I am not a big fan of the republican party. Mostly because of the fact that most that I have met are bible thumping assholes...

Be a conservative libertarian then. It's a shame that republicans have hitched their trailer to the bible thumpers.

Bullshit.

Al Sharpton: "We would have to say America overwhelmingly voted for socialism when they voted for Barack Obama."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqojWrtnieI

By now I think the fact that Obama is a socialist is blindingly obvious, and the fact that you Obama lovers haven't realized it yet only shows how far you've got your head buried.

Oh I think November will be quite productive. And conservatives have always been for a hand up rather than a hand out.

So way to go dems. I've always wondered where the DEMOCRA part of democrats came from. Certainly not from DEMOCRAcy because it seems that whenever necessary they abandon democratic principles and go socialist totalitarian dictator on us. The only thing bi-partisan about national health care was the opposition to it. Despite Obama's promise to have health care debates out in the open without back room deals, that's exactly what happened even though democrats had a super-majority for so long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwrzsLYt-uI

Teddy Roosevelt and Dick Nixon were for Health Care too.
 

TRACY:

Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Unemployment Comp., and Welfare are Socialism. Health Care is Socialism.

All Socialism is evil? Canada, UK and France are NOT Communism, Marxism, Nazis, and dictatorial enemies.

As a Libertarian, you want all socialism eliminated. How 'bout people being turned away from emergency rooms based on ability to pay? Isn't that Evil Socialism to save someone's life who cannot pay on the spot for it?


TAL

Social Security is supposed to be a backup retirement plan, not plan A. But so much of your money goes to relatively safe, low yield SS that for many people that's the only retirement they can afford, and it's inadequate. Give people the freedom to make their own retirement decisions. And if someone chooses to blow their savings on Bon-Bons why is it my responsibility to bail them out?

Medicare and Medicaid are fine, but it would be better handled by private industry with regulations.

Unemployment Compensation... why cant people save more? In our society we put so much on credit cards, we buy homes and cars with loans and put ourselves in so much debt, and when we lose a job we're screwed. If we saved more and limited ourselves to buying things we can actually afford there wouldn't be so much need for unemployment compensation would there?

Welfare gives millions of people an excuse to sit on their fat ass and not try to get a job.

And you may think national health care sounds good now. That's because all the gotchas come after BO's first term so they don't mess up his re-election bid. And let's face it, it's all about him now isn't it? That's what he told responsible democrats who were not going to vote for Obamacare until he strong armed them and told them how bad it's going to make him look if Obamacare doesn't get passed. After 2014 get ready to pay out the ass for health care. And before then, your health insurance premiums will go up because insurance companies know they are going to get screwed from Obamacare so they will spend the next 4 years raising their rates.

Unless Obamacare is struck down in court, which is very likely to happen. 37 states are objecting to Obamacare and several have filed lawsuits against it. Obamacare excludes the Amish and Christian science people for their religious reasons. But if you're catholic and object to it because it takes your tax money and pays for other people's abortions you don't get to opt out because of your religious reasons. This is a clear violation of separation of church and state where congress shall make no law favoring any religion over another. And many individuals will file law suits because the government simply has no right (assuming the constitution means anything) to force them to buy health care.

And even if it does somehow bypass all these constitutional potholes, the fact is it will not lower the deficit like BO claims. That's ridiculous. It will raise our debt even more, which we cannot afford, and it will lower the quality of health care for the 85% of Americans who are satisfied with their health care.

It's not as simple as democrats claim: Do you want free health care?? Sure, why the hell not?

If they were truthful about it the question would be: Do you want more expensive health care that's lower quality than what you currently have?
Hell no!

And that's what the vast majority of Americans are telling their lawmakers. But they failed to represent their constituents, and that's why there's the Tea Party movement - No taxation without representation!

The Majority of people favor the Health Bill.

Hee hee hee Haw haw..Hee hee hee Haw haw....

How Far The Mighty Have Fallen
 

Karl Rove was on MSNBC this morning trying to explain how bi-partisan his Administration was and how pissing a trillion dollars into the Iraq sand was more Noble than funding a trillion dollars for the Health of 32 million Americans.
He took a cheap shot at Chuck Todd on his way out and compared Savannah Guthrie to the vacuuous Bimbos on Fox News.
Looks like the Grand Old Party has been reduced to the bitter snarls and insults of the TeaBag Party.

TRACY:

Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid in ANY FORM are SOCIALISM, Tracy.

The RR law to NOT turn away people from the ER is socialism, Tracy. Pure capitalism is to make money, not save lives. Ins. Cos. are there to make a profit off of your life, death and sickness. Give a sick person insurance, not in America under pure capitalism.

Teddy Roosevelt & Dick Nixon wanted health care, aka socialism, Tracy.


So, save the socialism-is-Stalin BS for conservative drones.

I say there is good and bad socialism, and we will always differ.

Libertarians believe that you find anything, and everything you can to not give anyone government aid until the pool of people is too small to help even ONE person.

Yeah, the tea party is little old ladies who wouldn't harm a wing on a fly.

Imagine how they are being slimed as slurring congressman: 3 black with the n-word (1 spit on), 1 gay, 1 Mexican. In the face of a man with Alzheimer's, is that even possible? Bricks thru windows of congressional offices of Dems who voted for health care. Assassination threats to congressmen and their families. Point is that they don't want to use fire arms on these dumbocrats for health care. All they are asking in the nicest way possible is for them to change their vote from for to against. That's all they want is to kill the bill, and not the people who passed it.


TAL

Now come back to the real world.

In U.S., 45% Favor, 48% Oppose Obama Healthcare Plan
http://www.gallup.com/poll/126521/Fa...care-Plan.aspx

And the dems continue to lie. Seriously... I have never seen such a large group of consistent liars. Tell me again how much Bush spent on the Iraq war?

Not ANY form. Only in forms that are run by the government. Look up the definition of socialism.

It is in part. It is also hospitals raising rates for patients with insurance to pay for those who don't have insurance.

Insurance companies (yes I'll take the time to type it out just for you) are there to fill a need. People need medical coverage, they are there to provide a way to do that. Yes... big shock, it costs money to do that. Muh ha ha ha... yes MONEY!!!! Ha ha ha!!!!

Libertarians believe that you actually have to have a balanced budget. We don't have a balanced budget, therefore WE CANNOT AFFORD NATIONAL HEALTH INSURANCE! Is that so hard to understand? That you have to pay for these services? If it's not evil corporations paying for it, then it's the government paying for it. Either way the money comes from us, or as the democrats, progressives and socialists would like - from China. Libertarians have the audacity to say we have to pay for our own lifestyle. If we didn't have a debt and had positive money flow, then yeah, national health care would be affordable. But right now our country is broke and we have to get spending under control.

Is that what they're showing on CNN these days?

What are you even talking about?

What was that quote? Something about if the government does not serve its people, the people have a right to revolt? These people do not feel that their representatives are representing them. Whining about a few bricks.... They should be glad they are not being forcefully overthrown.