Which candidates? With the prohibitave cost of running there are bound to be dozens, maybe hundreds more candidates. Do they all get their certain number of hours of fame?

Would you think a change in your political system would be a good idea?
Maybe a party proportional representation in place of a simple plurality voting system. Which could lead to multi party system, with more than two parties. Where everyone can choose a party that fits them the most instead of choosing the lesser evil.

I also get the impression that your campaigns are strongly based on blaming the others, evil rumours of the other, fear of something and money. It seems to me the own manifestos are less important, but I could have got that wrong.

Words of wisedom from George

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xIraCchPDhk

:eek:Jerseygirl Jen

To Hell with the country
 

by David Glenn Cox
The GOP will eventually reap what it is sowing.

What was it from the last election that tells you it is the republicans who must cooperate? It's not just this vague little group called the republicans that want Obama to fail. It's the red in the attached image that want Obama to fail.

The democrats are completely clueless. Apparently they just always will be. Here's Obama... "What the election means is that the voters just didn't understand what we were trying to do!" LOL. Here's another one. "We weren't spending enough!" :lol: Completely clueless. Oh well, we'll get the other half in the next election.

If your right, it means the end of "Liberty and Justice for All". The "Fascist" element in The Republican Party will rule the country. So much for worrying about Islamic terrorists. We will be all be to blame if this happens. :frown:

"Liberty and Justice for all" was never meant to mean "The lame and the lazy shall be provided for."

Let me know when Charlie Wrangel spends jail time for tax evasion.

Gee, I didn't know that hardworking people that lost their job and are in process of losing their house as a result of things beyond their control are "lame and lazy" . :innocent:
I guess I am one of the "clueless". :innocent:

Yes, old Charlie should spend some jail time along with the bankers that created all these "lame and lazy" people.:frown:

Lame and Lazy
 

It's amazing how many lame and lazy people we have out there. A couple of years ago, they were all working, humm. Perhaps Wallmart could hire some of them to unpack all the goods from China that we used to make here.
Or we could send them to China where they could work for fifty cents an hour with no benefits. Along with them, I suggest we send a contingent of conservatives to see how they like it.:eek:

When the workers in China and India start demanding and receving anything near a living wage and the US workers and the US is a thrid world country and then will be happy to work for 50 cents a day then and only then will the jobs come back, Ronald R invisioned this dream and the GOP has been working hard to see it happen why do you think the GOP hates unions want to do away with min wage stop any lawsuits agianst big bussiness and wants all goverment oversight on the work place done away with
:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

1995
 

I remember very well when in the Clinton years and I had to train a China visitor how to do my job. It started well before W.

Clinton was sort of "bipolar" when it came to politics.

Its just a rerun of the 1930s. The conservatives hated FDR. Some of them even attempted to get a general to take over Washington and set up a semi-fascist state. Many of the big corporations had close business ties with Nazi Germany (Ford, Dow, IBM, etc). We are not that far off, big business controlls Congress and is bankrolling their corporate puppets the Tea Party.

What everyone forgets is NAFTA was laid out by George H Bush and Ronald Reagan ,Clinton was left that piece of crap and foolishly he signed it
I rember then president George H Bush being asked about the jobs that will be lost and his answer was well yeah some of the low paying low skilled jobs will be lost but they will then get high paid high skilled jobs to make up for it and today we have an 10 percent unemployment to show for it and all the tax cuts in the world will not bring the jobs back the jobs will come back only when the US works will work for 50 cents a day with no bennies
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

Super Rich
 

If the Democrats had any balls they would not put up with this.:frown:

Charlie committed no crimes, unlike Republican fanboy Tom DeLay.

To bad for Charlie that the IRS and the democrat House doesn't know that.

Even BO will compromise and allow the super rich to keep their tax cuts lol.

BO is a PUSSIE! :censored::turnoff::censored::frown:

Nancy Pelosi for President! ;)

For Russia maybe lol

LOL I thought you would get a kick out of that. ;)

Seriously, the Democrats needs to come up with someone just as mean as the Republicans.
Suggestions anyone?

No one can out-mean Pelosi. And Harry Reid is a bastard as well. Not only is he satisfied with cramming that health care down the country's throat without a vote that affected 1/6 of the country's economy, he's going to try and make millions of illegals legal as well without a vote. And this is RIGHT AFTER seeing how Americans reacted to being cut out of the process with the health bill. Harry Reid's Dream Act says to Americans: Fuck You.

I saw the 4 leading Republican names for the 2012 presidential ticket:
Sarah Palin - aka religious fundie
Newt Gingrich - aka religious fundie
Mitt Romney - aka religious fundie
Mike Huckabee - aka extreme religious whackjob

I thought the Tea Party was going to give us better alternatives than this.

Guess what boys & tgirls. Looks like another *&^($ stimulus package is on its way. Over $800 billion more of what we don't have, raising the debt past $14 trillion. Let's all bend over for China :coupling:

Uh, we can cut spending? oh what am I saying. That's just crazy talk.

The right has, since FDR, been determined to eliminate all public services (social security, welfare, food stamps, etc.) that he instituted. What do you think would happen if they got their wish?

UM NO!!!!!! :eek:
if that was to ever happen i'll need to learn the words to OH CANADA
:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

It would be a heck of a lot worse than if the dollar collapsed because we couldn't get our spending under control. Is a $14 trillion debt just too big for you or anyone else to comprehend so you ignore it? So you just go on and act as if it doesn't exist and say ok, now back to our entitlements....

You can do that. I'll party with my polar bear brethren. Hopefully, ila won't mind the influx of forum members at his igloo... ;)

Too late. Vladmir Putin is the President of Russia and he is by far alot more badass than Pelosi. She will have to go be in charge of another country which embraces the principles of a kleptocracy, preferably Zimbabwae, Nigeria, Venezuela or Cuba.

Typcial GOP BS,

The hugh debit was not made by entitlements this hugh debit was made by Bush's tax cuts for the rich and the two wars he started
Ending entitlements completely will no where near elimitate the debit
If the GOP really called about the debit they would not be adding trillions to it by keeping the tax cuts for the rich

No problem. Come on up. There's always room for my good friends from tlb.

Could S. Californians stay warm up there? :eek:

I don't think anyone including conservatives comprehends the huge debt.
If the conservatives would get serious about the debt, they would support canceling the huge tax break for the rich. :frown:

Yes. Booze and firewood will keep you warm, unless you want to spoon with polar bears!

Well, I don't know about the spooning business.:innocent:

Running will also keep you warm.

Now you know what happens when you drop by and don't bring any beer with you. :lol:

Yes, that's true on all counts. I also know for a fact that snuggling with my girl keeps the two of us warm.

Depends on the bear, i wouldn't touch a mama grizzy with a ten foot pole but polar bears are cute and cuddly

:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

Humm, Does that include Ila? :innocent:

Well his polar bear is cute but i like BOO BOO better

:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

I didn't say debit. I said debt. And I think you're thinking of deficit rather than debt. Deficit is the amount we over spend each year, and yes we had some ass kicking to do after 9/11 and it cost some money. I've said it before and I'll say it again. BO has already outspent Bush's over spending by several times.

I'm talking about the soon to be $14 trillion DEBT which is the amount we owe to other countries. It has been growing over the last century and has really taken off since Nixon took us off the gold standard. When we get back to something Bush did we'll call you ok?

We can't pay off the debt if our economy grinds to a halt. You drastically raise taxes for business owners (i.e. the rich) in the middle of a recession and that's what you'll do. And guess what. The democrats will be wanting more trillion dollar stimulus packages and continue raising the debt to help all the out of work people because you want to tax businesses to death. We need to allow the economy to recover, and cut spending, people will return to work and the debt will go down.

Part of the unemployment problem is companies are hording cash and not hireing because productivity is keeping up with demand. Unless demand increases faster than productivity companies will not hire. So what increases demand? Putting people back to work.
We need to make our own stuff. Rich American companies are making their stuff in China. It's time to tax the profits of goods made outside the US.

No i said debit ie like a magic card you insert and money comes pouring out

I think we can both agree something needs to be done about the sea of red ink started by W,

Where we disaggree on is who has to pay for it as you and the GOP feels the poor and working poor and midclass should foot the bill and suffer all the pain and the rich can live as they have and not worry about it
since 01 the rich and bussiness has had all the breaks and this trickle down did not create jobs all it did was create more red ink while the rich got richer
Trickle down is the biggest load of horse crap ever spoon feed to the US public in truth is a reverse Robin Hood that steals from the poor and gives to the rich as the rich pisses on the poors back and tells em it's raining
You want to drain the red ink then raise taxes you want to create jobs start putting a big taxes on all imports and perhaps then companies will start making good in the US
The rich has had 8 years of massive tax cuts and it's time they start paying for there party
I'm waiting for the GOP's next FU tax gimmick where they will claim Bussiness should not pay any yaxs at all and the employees should pay the taxes for em
wait an see it will happen
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

This isn't something we agree on. Bush did not create the debt.

I think you were born in '01. You have no concept of any other president other than Bush & BO. That there was debt before Bush comes as news to you. If anyone thinks he's got a magic debit card it's BO. He's printed several trillion dollars since he's come into office. If you can cite a time when Bush contributed more to the debt than your beloved Obama then by all means, tell me. Otherwise this is becoming a bore.

OF course W is innocent after all he started with a balanced budget and for the first time ever the goverment had money left over and your great little runt W who stole the election pissed it all away the first few months he stole power by round one of his tax cuts for the rich and starting the sea of red ink then he started two wars and did a second round of tax cuts for the rich then he bailed out wall street and then he started the US car makers bailout and yet you have the balls to say W didn't create this mess
I don't care how bored you get but the truth is W started the sea of red ink and trickle down economics only adds more red
Bo screwed up by caving in to the GOP and allowing two more years of tax cuts for the rich adding 900 million to the red ink all thanks to the GOP who demanded the rich not pay taxes the same GOP who ran on ending the debt
So tell me agian how the GOP is innocent and none of this is there fault and don't give me any of Rush or Palins made up BS
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

Labor
 

What Republicans are determined to ignore is that labor creates wealth. The miners digging ore, the assemblers in the auto plant, the machinist making machines, these are the people making wealth. Businessmen (CEOs) take that created wealth and distribute most of it to themselves. Its true enough that managers allocate and manage labor to optimize the creation of wealth but they do not create it, the workers create it. Even on Wallstreet if the guys behind the computers went home, no wealth would be created.
Basically, the Republicans want a slave economy where they get all of the benefit from labor and don't have to pay for it.
This is what they want and they are determined to get it. Hopefully, soon the workers in this country will wake up, but I doubt it. :frown::censored:

Etc etc... It's the same old discredited arguments as before.

In other news, Pelosi wants to have a party to celebrate all that congress has accomplished!! LOL! You just can't make this stuff up.

Screwed
 

So it doesn't matter who is in the Whitehouse, we will be screwed by the rich. Over :coupling: Over :coupling: and over :coupling:

I'm not being screwed by any super rich. Are you?

No, I am not either, because the rich are obsessed with money rather than sex. Their view of screwing somebody is getting as much of their money as possible. I suspect they have organisms at night playing with their money. $$$:inlove:

I'm not rich, and I'm not poor, but I've never heard of nor aspired to having an organism (unless, of course, you count my own). Wow! The things money can buy continue to astound me. Do you get that from Nordstrom or Neiman-Marcus? :)

Didn't you know, organisms are a special kind of orgasm for people who have a spelling disability. :blush: :rolleyes:

LOL Let them play with their organisms. It's a free country. :lol:

So are the super rich taking your money randolf?

Not anymore, I have it all stashed in Nigeria. :lol:

Nigeria probably isn't the best place to go with all your money. The MEND organization isn't exactly the friendliest of groups. Just givin you a heads up. ;)

I followed Fran's instructions and now my money is safely stored in a secret cave deep in the jungle and protected by Pygmies.:lol:

November 3rd after the democrats lost control of the House
So does that mean we can expect a veto of the FY2011 Omnibus Spending Bill because of the 6714 earmarks worth $8 billion that it contains?

Not likely, what politicians say and what they do have little connection. In spite of the critical deficit they are not willing to bite the bullet, take fiscal responsibility and severely cut spending. The millions for new engines for the strike fighter is a case in point. The military doesn't want them but Congress wants to spend the money that we don't have anyway. :censored:

:lol::lol::lol::lol: Get fucking real! You know better.:frown:

Disaster
 

Washington is a disaster and its not just the liberals responsible, the whole system, Supreme Court, Congress, White House, political parties, is fucked up. There seems to be nothing that we can do about it, or is there?

What if everyone in the country only paid 50% of their tax bill? :eek:

[QUOTE=randolph;168205]Washington is a disaster and its not just the liberals responsible, the whole system, Supreme Court, Congress, White House, political parties, is fucked up. There seems to be nothing that we can do about it, or is there?[/B]

There is, but most people are too lazy and self serving to do anything to correct it. Seeing as how it would be too much of a hinderance on their ability to watch American Idol and bloat themselves with twinkies, most would rather be happy being entertained and being ignorant of the world around them than stand up and take a second to realize how fast the boat is sinking. This is The Fall Of Rome Pt. 2: The American Fasttrack.

What if everyone just decided to keep their money and never paid their taxes?

In other news, 9 TRILLION missing from the Federal Reserve!!! :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYNVNhB-m0o

This boggles the mind! A must see by every American. :eek:

Take a look at Greece's problems and you'll see what happens when taxes aren't paid.

Bankruptcy! :censored:

On the other hand what if the government keeps spending more money and cutting taxes?
Bankruptcy! :censored:

Argentina is going to solve their debt problem by expropriating retirement accounts. Are we next?
Rioting in the streets. :censored:

Uggg, I need to go back to thinking about lovely erect shecocks. :drool:

Politician*

Rope*

Lamppost*

*Some assembly required...


And people think that the Gov. has their best interests in mind. Obviously not if they are so loose with other peoples money. :censored:

Win?
 

Guess who is winning. :censored:

There's no comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FR5MweSZjbc

Very true for one he's not a two bit brain dead movie actor
:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

Trickle
 

Dear old Ronnie started the trickle down economy. Remember the Laffer curve? It was bullshit then and its bullshit now. Ronnie had to eventually raise taxes because his policies failed. Nevertheless since then, Repubs. have loved the trickle down economy. :coupling:

So now Obama has embraced Reaganomics. :censored:

Can anybody still believe Obama is a socialist? :no:

Taxes will have to be raised, it's just a matter of time. The way things are going, a Republican congress will have to do it. :lol:

And back we go to post 225.

Want to cut stuff then first and foremost lets cut corprate welfare the billions of tax dollars being pumped in to multibillion dollar corprations like the oil companies and second tax the rich forget all this GOP bull crap that tax cuts for the rich trickles down well W did mega tax cuts for the rich and at the end of eight years avg joes family income was down and he lost more jobs then he created so lets here it for trickle down and buy the way Tracy before you start giveing unemployment percentages don't forgot to count the two wars and all the reservest cared up and had to walk away from there jobs creating an temp opening which hide a large portation of unemployement and if tax cuts for the rich create jobs then what happend where are the jobs?
Tax cuts for the rich doesn't create jobs this is the same old GOP BS that has been going around since the GOP saint Ronny came up with the BS in the 80s and aftwer 12 years of the BS all we were left with was a sea of red ink and massive unemployment
Trickle down was a failure in the 80s and it's still a failure it only benfits the rich
:yes: Jerseygirl Jen

Looks like ObamaCare is starting to have an effect already. I am employed and I have health insurance. Our insurance rates are going up this year more than usual. What's worse is I'm losing my doctor I've had for years because he's now completely off insurance. He's on this thing called MDVIP which means if I want to keep him as a doctor I have to pay him $1600/year and I get to see him as often as I want. This isn't just my doctor, I know a few other people who also have to find other doctors and while searching online for doctors I'm seeing that people are saying don't bother with this doctor - he's good but he's not on insurance anymore. I don't have $1600/yr to spend on a doctor so I have to find a doctor who's probably not as good. So like they've been saying about ObamaCare: decreased quality of service, and or higher medical bills. Obama, I thought you said if I liked my old health care I could keep it. I can't do that you SOB. It doesn't exist anymore.

:confused:I don?t know what you want to say. Is this an answer? Am I supposed to say something?
What has this to do with decreased quality of service? Is your old doctor the only good doctor in your range?
Is there a connection between ObamaCare or Obama and MDVIP I should know off?
This sounds like it was the doctor?s decision, and the doctor could have done this years earlier, if he/she wanted.
And why are you affronting Obama for that?:confused:

Like I said it's not just my doctor. It looks like it's several doctors. I'm trying to get a feel for how widespread this is. But it looks like this is how things are going now.

Someone please explain Pelosi
 

Can someone please explain Pelosi? Yesterday on her way out she said:

"Deficit reduction has been a high priority for us, it's our mantra: Pay as you go."

I know politicians stretch the truth, but with the deficit increasing $5.2 trillion under her watch how can she stand there and say that with a straight face? This fits every definition of a bold faced lie. Is there any way she can possibly believe what she's saying is true?

Oh, come on. According to their website http://www.mdvip.com/ they were founded in 2000, and they list almost 400 doctors in the whole US (I counted).
What do you want to say?

BTW: What does the abbreviation MDVIP stands for? I can?t find it.

Any doctor who decides to join MDVIP is doing so for his or her own reasons, not because he or she is driven there by the Obama healthcare reform.

MDVIP (it means "Medical Doctors for Very Important Persons") is a money-making venture begun by some doctors who want to make more money by offering boutique, personalized services to those who can afford it. It is the antithesis of the kind of healthcare we should have in this country. Notably, Procter & Gamble -- the giant consumer products company -- bought this company fully in early 2010, expanding its minority stake to full ownership.

I spoke with two Harvard Medical School professors I know before writing this response. Here's a synopsis of how they both described MDVIP.

- This is another step in the misdirection of "managed care," designed to make more money doing less.

- The criteria for being a doctor in the MDVIP network is that you have to cut your practice to about 600 patients maximum (the current primary-care doctor in an urban area has 2,000 to 3,000 patients). The criteria for being a patient of such a doctor is your personal level of wealth and disposable income to pay for "care" beyond your insurance. The doctor will still collect from your insurance company; he or she just wants you to pay extra for the "privilege" of seeing him or her quickly.

- The focus is on "preventive" care, which should be the focus of the healthcare system as a whole.

- One of my colleagues said, "Welcome to the medical world's version of a country club."

Tracy Coxx, you really ought to take a deep breath before jumping to the conclusion that everything you dislike in the world can be traced to Obama, Pelosi, Democrats, and so on. The business model for a company like MDVIP precedes the healthcare debate and legislation of the last year by a long time; doctors have been trying to figure out ways to create these boutiques as sustainable ventures for many years.

Thanks for the info, smc.
That confirms what I have googled and concluded about MDVIP.

Post #276 sounds like it was a response to me, and should prove something. I expected an explanation or at minimum some conspiracy theory from Tracy, and not an absurd pointless attack against Obama.

Welll we'll see how it pans out. And no, I did not say that MDVIP is the only refuge for doctors who are fed up with what Obama is doing to the health care system.

Well tell these greedy doctors to jam it as those doctors can careless about there patients and all the care about is money so everyone is better off with out them and let them go work at Wal-mart for min wage
This for profit medical system is what's wrong with it the pure greed of the doctors and healthcare ins companies
If you think that stopin malpractice lawsuits and letting the healthcare ins companies run wild with no rules the coast will come down then i have a bridge to see you in San Fran bay
But then these ideas are from the same nut jobs who claim cutting taxes on the rich will create jobs
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

Yep, it's pretty much Reaganomics all over again....and we all know how well that went. :p

That's right: you did not use those words. But what I wrote is still how you come across, and you can't hide it.

It's horrendous what happened in Arizona yesterday. I'm so glad Rep. Giffords survived. I just hope she is able to recover back to a normal life. And it's so sad about the others who were killed. What kind of monster shoots a 9 year old girl? :censored: The sooner they strap him to the electric chair the better.

It isn't really all that amazing, Fran. People in Europe are generally very well informed on American government. That is because American policy affects the people on this side of the ocean almost as much as you.
Take for instance the current financial crises that was triggered in the US but now affects us all. Many European countries have troops stationed in Afganistan simply because they cannot afford to be on bad terms with the US. That is unfortunately what politics is all about.

But while we're rather well informed on American politics, it is often hard for us to understand the American way. We can for instance not understand that in a country as rich as the US, where some are earning billions of dollars while trillions are wasted on useless wars, millions of people cannot afford to take out health insurance. It is even harder to understand for us that a President who is trying to rectify this horrible situation is heavily criticized by those doing well. I guess we just don't get that over here.

It's the way he's going about it. You don't have congress pass thousand page health care packages that affect people's health and 1/6 of the nations economy without reading it after making campaign promises of no more back room deals. Seriously, the congressmen voting on it did not know what was in it. That's insane.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

The other problem is that the Constitution does not grant the government power to force people to buy health insurance. A federal judge has already ruled on this, so that has to be resolved.

Apparently he legally bought a Glock at a gun shop a few months ago. The evidence indicates that the young man is clearly deranged and should have never been allowed to have a gun.
I don't know if they do background checks in Arizona and they want to make it legal for students to bring guns to school. As the Sheriff said, Arizona is living up to the Tombstone reputation.

Things that make you go Hmmmm
 

Hawaii Gov. Neil Abercrombie (D) suggested in an interview that a long-form, hospital-generated birth certificate for Barack Obama may not exist within the vital records maintained by the Hawaii Department of Health.

But no long-form birth certificate. And no typed original document like what BO has posted online. Looks like it's time to start asking questions again.

This is insanity. You do yourself such an injustice by posting such drivel, when there are real issues that matter.

The Political Cow
 

Democrat
You have two cows
Your neighbor has none
You feel guilty for being successful
You vote people into office that put a tax on your cows, forcing you to sell one to raise money to pay the tax.
The people you vote for then take the tax money, buy a cow and give it to your neighbor.
You feel righteous.
Barbara Steisand sings for you.

Republican
You have two cows
Your neighbor has none.
So?

Socialist
You have two cows
The government takes one and gives it to your neighbor.
You form a cooperative to tell him how to manage his cow.

Communist
You have two cows.
The government seizes both and provides you with milk
You wait in line to get it.
It is expensive and sour.

American corporation
You have two cows
you sell one, lease it back to yourself and do an IPO on the 2nd one.
You force the two cows to produce the milk of four cows.
You are surprised when one cow drops dead.
You spin an announcement to the analysts stating you have downsized and are reducing expenses.
Your stock goes up.

:lol:

Logical fallacy: Appeal to ridicule

I suggest you review what the logical fallacy called "appeal to ridicule" actually involves. I have created no straw man. You have, Tracy, by bringing up something that has nothing to do with the actual policies being implemented with which you disagree. In doing so, you seek to negate the man rather than address his policies (at least in this post and with this argument), thus contributing to the ridiculous hyperbole of others in which policies that are not that different from ones proposed by Republicans over the years (e.g., the healthcare plan is based in large part on Romney's Massachusetts plan and the plan Dole campaigned on for the presidency; etc.) are stated to be the end of our freedom, the death of America, and so on.

And before you accuse me of putting words in your mouth, note carefully that I said you are "contributing to the ridiculous hyperbole of others."

As has been pointed out on this site again and again, no matter how much civil discourse we have about politics, and no matter how substantive the discussion gets on the issues, it seems we can always count on you to revert at some point, and in some way either large or small, back to arguments and views that are facile, questionable as to their verity, and (as in this particular case) irrelevant. That is precisely what this birther crap is. When you are arguing substantively, it is obvious that you are so much smarter than those who take such crap as good coin, and it's a shame you can't seem to help but go swimming in their muck from time to time.

And before you accuse me of insulting another member of this Forum, note carefully that I am writing of your occasional opinions, not of you. You will not get ad hominem arguments out of me.

Appeal to Ridicule does not always involve a strawman. I did not accuse you of insulting me. I accused you of ridiculing my statement, like you said, without addressing the statement.

You should read more carefully. My point about "insulting" was relevant to my last post, not your post that first brought up the false "logical fallacy."

And I did address your statement. It is unworthy of serious discourse. That is my response.

Again, there are serious issues to discuss. This birther crap is not among that set.

I have typically avoided political discussions on this forum mainly because, as I?ve said before, I don?t enjoy discussing complex issues unless I know who I?m talking to. Get me in a room with my students, friends, or colleagues however, and it is a completely different ballgame! One of the basic problems of online discussion is that it is next to impossible to fully argue a solution to a complex problem such as what to do about health care, global warming, or the economy in a short text response. We unfortunately tend to take a side and cling to it, failing to hear what others are saying, and then attacking or labeling their beliefs--often incorrectly.

What I have seen of political discourse on the Internet in general is discouraging. Unfortunately so is it here. The few ?political? threads I have seen on ?TLB? all seem to be dominated by the same person with the express goal of stating their own views and excluding or ridiculing all others. The same pattern occurs over and over again: whether it be universal health care, Obama?s nationality, net neutrality, or a supposed ?liberal free for all.? The stage is ?set in advance?--like a trap--with loaded arguments and titles like ?There Goes the Internet.? The issue is presented not for discussion--but rather as a challenge--to see who will dare to question the OP.

Many well thought out and reasonable arguments have indeed been presented in each thread, both for and against the OP. However almost all statements ?against? the OP have been dismissed with ridicule, denial that something was ever said, labeling, sarcastic remarks, and reliance on statements that make me think too much time is spent listening to Rush Limbaugh, watching Fox news, and not getting out of the house. Almost never is an idea attacked or supported on its own merits or with real evidence. Personally I want nothing to do with this sort of political ?discussion,? nor do I believe that it belongs in this forum.

Birther?
 

Tracy, you sometimes appear to belong to the "don't confuse me with the facts crowd".
The following is an excerpt from Wikipedia.

"In 2008 the Obama campaign released his birth certificate, certified by the Hawaii Department of Health, and posted a scanned image of it online. The posted certificate states that Obama was born in Honolulu, Hawaii, on August 4, 1961.[1] The certificate also states, "This copy serves as prima facie evidence of the fact of birth in any court proceeding". Frequent arguments of those questioning Obama's eligibility are that he has not released a photocopy of his "original" or "long form" birth certificate, but rather a redacted "short form" version. It has also been claimed that the use of the term "certification of live birth" on the document means it is not equivalent to one's "birth certificate". These arguments have been debunked numerous times by media investigations,[13] every judicial forum that has addressed the matter, and Hawaiian government officials?a consensus of whom have concluded that the certificate released by the Obama campaign is indeed his official birth certificate.[14] Asked about this, Hawaiian Department of Health spokeswoman Janice Okubo stated that Hawaii "does not have a short-form or long-form certificate".[15] Moreover, the director of her Department has confirmed that the state "has Sen. Obama?s original birth certificate on record in accordance with state policies and procedures".[16][17]"

I admit I hadn't done my Wikipedia research. That's interesting about the long form birth certificate. Although there's a woman in a paper I saw who had twins born at the same hospital as BO on the day after he was born, and she's showed their birth certificates. I don't know if it's officially called a long form, but it requires a lot more information than BO's certificate has (image attached).

What keeps me curious is the fact that his own grandmother ID'd him at the birth canal in Kenya, and that he later had Indonesian citizenship (not dual since that was not allowed in Indonesia). And now this thing with the governor of Hawaii, who seems to be trying to help BO isn't doing him any favors LOL. And the fact that he goes to great lengths to conceal his original birth certificate isn't doing himself any favors either. Unless it doesn't exist, in which case I guess he would be doing himself a favor by refusing to show it.