This sounds really condescending, and I don't appreciate it.

Well, what can I say... you'll get over it... and don't take me too seriously... ;-)

Ok, so for Hank's reason for why we need a black president regardless of experience or his political leanings is "beauty"... reason ascertained: because America just needs a black president.

Well I guess that about wraps it up. Kind of anti-climactic I'd say. For some reason I thought you had more depth than that.

And you want to imply WE are full of ourselves? That's rich...

Tracy, you hot goddess... I'm about as deep as a burned out pan cake without a pan... ;-)

No, you just keep insisting on your own agenda and repeating the same old ultra right wing stuff no matter what I say, so I figured it better to just let it rest.

BLACK POWER! ;-)

I still adore you, though!

Malcolm XXX

No, I realize my answer to you was inappropriate and could be perceived as arrogant. I'm sorry. I'm actually a kinda nice guy and only leisurely arrogant :-) So I mean it, sorry if I offended you.

In my initial post I'm not critisizing America - merely attacking the latent fascism that I believe the Bush administration has been an exponent for. I believe I have given ample examples in other postings in this thread regarding my particular views in this regard, so I shall not bore you further with that.

That said, your own comment was kinda short and angry. None the less, my correct answer should, of course, have been as said just above.

Peace!

H

PS: Bear with me, please! English is NOT my first language, so I struggle along to make myself comprehensible.

If it's your opinion, fine. But if you've allowed yourself to be influenced by the opinions of, oh, the rest of the world about Bush (who, though many of us dislike, is not the SOLE reason for all of our problems) you should step back and reconsider how informed you really may be.

Shouldn't we all? Point taken and thanks for enlightening me. Now peace and stop! Ok?

Lemme pull this thread out of the HISTORY file to say how thrilled I am at Obama's choices for cabinet, etc. so far. When McCain chose Palin and Obama chose Biden, I was re-assured except for Biden's age, I'm not sure he can slip right in after 8 years and make CHANGE a 16 year dynasty. The SHARP selections he has made so far ...even though I'm not savvy enough to know any details, I know enough to see he's surrounding himself with supersmart people, agreed by everyone, I get a real good feeling that stuff is actually going to get done here in the States. Good stuff.

I also see some interesting things happening. People like Hank who are constantly harassed by his friends in Indonesia because he is white, and therefore must be accused of being a fascist Bush lover will no doubt be pleased to see that their savior Obama has kept Bush's Secretary of Defense. Obama the pacifist also will take our troops back to Afghanistan, and has made threats against Pakistan, and after being given the cold shoulder by Iran has vowed to deliver a 'devistating U.S. nuclear response against Iran' if Iran attacks Israel. Oh, and he says he will negotiate with Iran and offered economic aid if they agreed to drop their nuclear program. In other words, he's not dumb enough to follow his campaign promise of sitting at the table with Iran without preconditions.

On the socialism front, Obama says he will not increase taxes on the rich at this time. Apparently he's not dumb enough to follow the economic strategies he's campaigned on.

He is dumb enough to assign Daschle as secretary of Health & Human Services though.

I'm gunna go out on a limb and I'm sure I'll get banned for it so fuck it, here goes:
Barak Hussein Obama is going to be a horrific president for the United States but he is exactly what the world outside of which needs. He will bring out changes to America that will destroy the individualist capitalist nature of the people who founded it. He has already chosen the socialist cabinet that Bill Clinton chose when he was in office, save for the Sec. of Defense. All his talk about ending the war in Iraq was a lie because he knows he cannot afford to "lose" the war in name only because it will be bad for his party. He will destroy the medical establishment by prohibiting those who have payed in to the system their whole lives the ability to access it (ie- in socialist countries you are rationed healthcare, the elderly will be the first to be cancelled out). Barak Obama will ignore overt threats from the Russian federation and the Chinese "republic" all the while making the military a shadow of its former self, while claiming support for it and screaming that he supports them and all their missions or what ever but he will make them weaker and tie their hands in the face of those terrorists and authoritarian governemnts that do not restrict their soldiers. Only in modern America are soldiers tried for "war crimes" committed in the commission of their duties. I could probably go on but this is almost assuredly going to be edited by someone already. The fact of the matter is that Obama was elected because he was not a republican. George Bush was not a far right winger, he said it himself that he should govern from the center. In fact all his bailouts are testimony to the fact he is more socialist than any president ever. Obama was born black. What a freakin accomplishment. When people bash Sarah Palin, the epitomy of womanhood, they say she's a governor, Obama is a senator, as if her executive experience was nothing and his senatorial experience, his 1 term senatorial experience, was something so unbelievably great... I had a friend who was supposed to be quite intelligent and open minded. Well, I deduced after the fact that he did not want to vote for a republican, no matter what. If a perfect candidate in everyone's point of view ran against Obama but s/he called him/herself a republican, that person would have lost. Now then, I'll go back to looking for big dick shemales cause I'm a damned pervert and that's what gets me off... Just remember that when the muslim extremists take over, those of us who like what we all know we do will be among the first to go because we are the abominations to them. God help us all... BTW, no more blog rage, I won't even be reading it...

Jeez, talk about your sore losers, McCain himself said that Obama has picked some marvelous people for his cabinet on the Letterman show tonight! Get over it! There are more Mexicans than Goldwater Republicans in the USA now. Knock off this "American Dream" crap and taste the new American Reality.
If you want to be taken seriously don't mention Sarah Palin. You betcha!

No surprise there. McCain is unable to make a criticism of his former opponent in anything larger than a campaign rally. That cream-puff persona did nothing to get himself elected.

What's wrong with the American Dream? I'd take that over the Mexican Dream any day.

First of all, let me say, I don't like to mix politics with sex. They make very weird and twisted bed fellows. More so than I. LOL

About President elect Obama. In my book, the jury is still out on him, I'm taking a wait and see attitude. This may seem untrusting, however in my book, politicians in general, regardless of their party affiliation are untrustworthy. They all have their own agendas, and its screw the common man over as much as they can. When it comes to the honesty of our politicians, I ask myself this age old question. "How can you tell if a politician is lying? His lips are moving".

I am not going to say I'm a Bush fan either. I knew there would be trouble from him the moment he took his election results to the U.S. Supreme Court to win his first term. I didn't like him then, still don't know. But for that matter, I disliked both Gore and Kerry. And still do, and I certainly didn't want Hilliary Clinton in office either. I still have a sour taste in my mouth from the Clinton years, and some of the stunts he pulled. I'm hoping not to have a repeat performance with Obama.

I'll be the first to say I'm glad Bush is leaving, good riddance to bad rubbish. He's created more turmoil in this world than any terrorist could ever hope to achieve. Time for national and global stability, as well as amends to be made to countries that were insulted by Bush.

Citizens of the other countries, may I remind you, not every American supported Bush, not every American supported his policies, and certainly not every American ignored the fact that we were turning other countries against us. More Americans care than you realize.

To my fellow Americans. I've said this before, this is my story and I'm stickin to it. The government has failed us. But worst of all, we failed ourselves. Our government is of the people, by the people, and for the people. We are the government. Lets look and see what we DIDN'T do that caused our current predicament. Lets take responsibility to ensure it never happens again.

When I was in Elementary School, it was W.A.S.P. all the way. It was great. Drug users, homos, Commies, beatniks, they all fell under the heading of "common criminals" and Blacks had their own little neighborhoods.
Right and wrong, law and order, you didn't even have to lock your doors at night. Even in the cities.
That's all changed now. Ozzie and Harriet are still around, but they've got money and live in Oklahoma.
"Leave it to Beaver" will always be my favorite TV show, but I can't deny that what's fair is fair and right is right.
Blacks, Gays, Legal Immigrants, and yes even Transsexuals deserve a piece of the American Pie.
If Obama doesn't deliver, vote him out! But I've got a real feeling that people are going to become believers.

White supremacy isn't what I think of when I think of the American Dream. When I think of the American Dream, I'm thinking of opportunities being available to anyone who works hard enough for it. I know it hasn't always been that way for all races, but it should be. That doesn't mean there should be affirmative action programs. But opportunities in the US should be made available to any legal US citizen who strives to achieve those opportunities.

How do you see Obama delivering? By giving handouts to those who haven't worked for what he will give them?

By giving the Middle Class a level playing field. The middle class does all the work and pays all the taxes. When Tyrone buys a Coke he pays the Coca Cola Co's taxes. He pays the bottler's taxes. He pays the truck driver's taxes. He pays state tax, federal tax. If Tyrone ain't got no job, he's going to get high and rob a house. Maybe your house. Tyrone's going to go to jail so you can pay for that too.

Hehehe... well said!

And hopefully this marks the death of ultra conservatism in a way similar to what happened to communism a decade or two ago.

Time for a much more blended mindset - a wonderful shift of paradigm.

And in the end, isn't that truly what the socalled "American Dream" is all about? I mean, before it was hijacked by the military fascists who sort of indicate that to be a TRUE American with hand on heart, tears in the eyes and gun (and sexuality) in the closet you MUST be an ultra right winger believing in the "small-town-set" of values?

Hopefully all that will fade away and die out with the current believers.

Peace!

H

Indonesia
 

Hey Hank! Who was it that ordered all that aid to your country after the tsunami?

First of all, who cares what McCain has said or thinks? Certainly not anyone on the Right. For crying out loud, those of us who ARE Republicans were actually PISSED at McCain for NOT going after Obama hard enough during the election. As tiresome as it was to hear McCain sounding like a truly old man -- constantly saying "My Friends" every time he spoke -- what REALLY rubbed people on the Right the wrong way was that McCain spent as much time kissing Obama's ass as the media did. Frankly, McCain LOST my vote when one day -- about 2 or 3 weeks out from the election -- he was giving a speech in Ohio and someone got up and said something negative about Obama, which the crowd cheered on. But then in a truly stupefying political moment, McCain turned to the person (and the crowd) and actually said "Senator Obama is a good man. You have nothing to fear from an Obama presidency." And that's the fucking tone he had WHILE THE RACE WAS STILL ON. Frankly, the ONLY reason I voted for McCain was BECAUSE of Sarah Palin.

Then again, I felt bad for McCain. He was truly in a no-win situation. All along he realized he was up against a historic tide where obviously so many African-Americans were going to come out in force in order to elect Obama, all so they could put the first Black president in office. And the joke of that? Howard Stern did an amazing bit on the radio where he sent someone up to Harlem to ask people on the street WHY they were voting for Obama. At which point, the person would read off a list of various political positions to the people, to which they would get excited and say: "That's right! That's exactly what I believe, too! Barack's political positions are totally in tune with what I believe!"...

...The joke being, of course, that literally ALL of the statements that were read to the people were McCAIN's political positions on the issues.

As for Palin, I wouldn't be so dismissive of her if I were you. She's certainly going to be a future force to be reckoned with. You can betcha that.

First of all, SHE is what energized the Right wing base and even made it a race. SHE is what brought the Republicans and Conservatives together -- NOT McCain. Which brings us full circle to why no one on the right cares that McCain supports Obama's cabinet choices on Letterman -- Hell, McCain even being back on Letterman, once again to praise Obama, just shows how spineless he's now become in the end, how appeasing McCain has become about just wanting to be liked in the aftermath of things. If anything, Palin showed the most spine and character by now telling Oprah to fuck off and to pound any interview requests up her ass, after the way Oprah snubbed her during the actual race.

And second, keep these thoughts in mind, too. A recent poll showed that Palin remains the overwhelming choice of Republicans to run the next time around, only this time at the TOP of the ticket. But even more interesting was another poll recently showed that a whopping and truly astounding 78% of the American voters -- we're talking nearly 8 out of 10 voters, regardless of which side of the political aisle they come from -- felt Sarah Palin had been treated UNFAIRLY by the media and she did NOT get fair coverage at all during the election. An astounding 8 out of 10 people, now post-election, feel the media did not do it's job and they showed a clear bias. Which means the next time around, people are NOT going to let the media get away with the smear tactics they did this time...nor will they let the media whitewash the Obama side of things.

In fact, here's another interesting note: the glow is clearly off Obama already. A poll released this weekend showed Obama's approval rating was now down to 65%. On the surface, that might sound high and good -- but keep in mind that with a country essentially split at this point between those who lean Right and those who lean Left, that means Obama now only has a 15 point margin before he hits the tipping point where literally HALF of the country would be AGAINST him. A lot of Obama's fall from grace has to do with the economy (polls show people don't think he's taking an active enough role in things), plus the Illinois Senate seat-selling scandal is also contributing to things.

Plus, it's become obvious that many reporters are now vocally...and FINALLY...asking tough and honest questions about "what" Obama knew with regards to the dirty politics that went on in Chicago (as a Congressman and then a Senator). And as one commentator put it today on the news, this scandal - as more and more dirt and names come out -- is now threatening the tarnish the inauguration. Plus, when Obama gets sworn in in January...and the economy is then still utter shit in February, with more and more people still being laid off...the general public won't be blaming Bush anymore. They'll be looking right at the Oval Office and the Democratically controlled Congress and saying "Okay, NOW we start blaming YOU."

And yet the total irony to your statement is that it WAS the Black and Hispanic communities that turned out in droves on election day and squashed Gay marriage in the California election. THEY were the ones who became the deciding factor, not W.A.S.P.y white people.

Gee, I guess Obama's "more fair and tolerant" America is gonna need some retooling already, eh?

As they say, "Time will tell".

An excellent post CreativeMind. I'm glad to see a more in-depth analysis of events both pre and post election.

intolerance
 

Apparently Creativemind worships the Limbaugh-Palin reactionary mentality. McCain was simply trying to be a decent human being trying to calm down the hate filled uber conservatives on the right. Palin is a dark dangerous cloud on the horizon. If this country is to survive as a free accepting society we need to foster reason and humanity.

Why would Tyrone get high and rob a house if he loses his job? My dad lost his job. I have a friend who lost his job. They don't get high and rob someone's house. They do whatever they can to find work, any kind of work, and make it work somehow, until they can find a job that will pay the bills. Maybe Tyrone needs to be in jail.

In Europe past a hundred years ago, leaders were like Fathers, their decisions were based on the preserving the "fabric" of the society. People wanted a leader they could bow down to, or salute, not some elected civil servant.
The President should represent ALL of the citizens, not just the Bill OReilly half, I'm glad you love your dads, I'm glad Ann Coulter's dad treated her like a little princess, I'm glad you are proud of half the Country.
If I were you I'd be a Republican too. But COME ON!!! Dwight Eisenhower would throw up if he saw the GOP now. Sarah Palin?
Obama was president of the Harvard Law Review. This is a Nation of Laws. People are People. History is never wrong. You knuckleheads have the right to think anything you want. Jesus was right, but he could have used a good lawyer.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i4dsB4F6puM

Europe can keep their kings and Hitlers.

And not just of 13.4% of society either.

Jesus who? That guy from 2000 years ago? I'm not concerned with him. I am also not a Republican (i.e. not a bible thumper and not socially conservative). What have I said that you object to? That I don't support affirmative action? That I think someone who gets high and robs people when the chips are down rather than working to become a productive member of society should be in jail? I doubt HALF of America believes people should not be held accountable for their actions.

To be honest for a minute, Tracy, I think we've roamed into the PERSONAL area here, where it's about winning an argument.
I think all people have positive characteristics like intelligence, faith, honor, empathy, charity, hope, happiness, the list goes on, all the stuff that makes life worth living. But every INDIVIDUAL has 4 or 5 defects, ..personality flaw, sin, physical disability, foolish pride, laziness, whatever, that define who that person is. I'd say most people go to there grave with some of them that are deeply ingrained in their personality.
These FLAWS will not be litigated away by the Supreme Court. Or by who is President.
But a robust economy can put people to work. A sound foreign policy can prevent nuclear war. A medical plan like Europe can heal people! And social security can insure people a basic human dignity when they get too old to work.
Carrying your own weight, keeping what's yours, that was a real good plan years ago when this country was being built. It's called survival. But corrupt oilmen and Wall St Traders are mutating "self-reliance" into "legally stealing" and this country has to guarantee each citizen a realistic plan for equal opportunity. To Thrive. It's called survival.
I am proud of this country for electing Barack Obama. Bush was a goddamn liar. Debate that!

Blacks voted 70% in favor of prop 8, Hispanics roughly 56%. Blacks account for 6-10% of the voting population in California. Could blacks and Hispanics have turned he tide in such a close election? sure. However I think a 50% voter turnout in San Fran, 65% of married people, 81% of Protestants and Evangelicals, 64% of Catholics, 68% of voters 65+ are just as worthy of blame. The hundreds of thousands of dollars from the VERY white Mormon church could have had a little to do with it.

Also, the lack of coalition building from within the G&L movement. The assumption that blacks and Hispanics would just vote the way they wanted. The quickness the "black church" ot blamed the day after election day. The freedom with which the "N" word got used in West Hollywood. That tells me that maybe there needs to be some reflection and some serious thought. It's not a myth that the national GLb...t groups are seen as male, white, wealthy, not trans* - it's because the gay white boys really like to throw their own party (with their cis-lesbian sisters as backup)

Well personally sure I would love for the government to pay for my health care, and pay for my housing, etc etc... But I'm realistic. I'm thinking how policies like this would translate into the real world. And it looks something like tax payers owing $700 billion to bail out Wall Street because 2 democrat presidents and fanatical left wing political groups like ACORN thought it would be a good idea to give loans to people who did not have a way to pay the loans back. You know... level the playing field... spread the wealth. It sounds so noble. But think beyond yourself for a minute and look at the big picture. The $700 billion bailout is only the beginning. As you can see with the auto industry. They want theirs. Some other industry will be next. This is madness.

I would be happy to. Start a new thread if you want to get into that. As for the rest, no thanks. I've seen how Jimmy Carter almost ruined this country with his socialist mentality (i.e. over 10 percent unemployment, double digit inflation rates, double digit interest rates, gas lines). Then along comes Reagan with his economically conservative policies and completely reverses all of that. It wasn't that long ago. Why wouldn't it work now?

You forget one thing about Europe's socialist health care. They make use of medicines and surgical procedures developed here in the US. If the US mirrors European health care, then there will be no source of innovation like we have now.

You win Tracy, you're right. You've worn me down, I can't fight anymore.
Palin-Palin 2012. Drill Baby Drill!

Geez, first Obama, now Palin? Your voting card should be revoked :p

Swanky americans
 

Hank! This swanky American is still waiting for you to reply to my question!

As so many did, you chose to take my initial question as a general critique of America - some Americans tend to react that way... maybe for a good reason.

Well, it wasn't. Merely a critique of Geo Bush and his corrupt regime - the most insanely incompetent group of self-servers that this world has seen in modern time.

And I don't find any hints of the catastrophic tsunami that hit South East Asia particularly relevant in this regard, I'm sorry... who is pulling the money from oil in this country anyways? Maybe your country...??? And should we compare figures here?

Besides, could Geo & Dick even handle your own horrible thing in good old New Orleans? Nope... basicly, that administration has done nothing good, and they will for ever be remembered as the evil disaster they truly were... and stand as a glorified example of the electoral mistake that your people made... with a little help from a corrupt judicial system that made it possible in the first place...

But in 36 hours they'll be HISTORY, the nasty buggers!

So let's rejoice and be HAPPY! There's a new sheriff in town!

GOBAMA!

H

Once the AWB returns with a vengeance and concealed-carry is trashed, there's gonna be hell to pay. Responsible gun owners (including would-be's like yours truly) will be pissed. Obama will have made his biggest fuck-up ever.

Right on Hank, but I don't want them to be history,
I want them tried for WAR CRIMES!:frown::frown::frown::frown::frown:

Well, Obama time is upon us. It'll be impossible to live up to the hype but let's HOPE that we can look back in four or eight years time and praise him for harnessing America's strengths to promote a more peaceful and positive world, steering away from the climate of FEAR that has dominated the last eight years.

I agree - they would deserve it... as Jesse Ventura said in some interview... "George W. Bush will leave office totally happy and "ignorant" of the damage he has done. He will ride out in the sunset the good old American way and live happily for ever after..."

He's history! Thank God!

So let's focus on the tasks ahead and be amazed that we are being part of history being made here - beyond any presidential election probably EVER!

Enjoy the inauguration!

Congratulations, America! Congratulations, World!

H

Blazing Saddles, anyone?:lol:

I like the image of the helicopter on the tarmac, with Bush in it and Obama and his wife and Biden and his wife standing there waving goodbye.
Thank God he is leaving! The worst President in our history!

As I wrote on inauguration day in my Facebook status, I am "wondering how long the illusions of the day will last in the minds of my celebrating friends."

i bet u feel dumb now lol

Well, you can give up that pipe dream right now.
Never gonna happen -- frankly, never stood a chance of happening.

The truth is SO many people on BOTH sides of the political aisle voted for and supported the Iraq War right from the start that ANY sort of trial would involve bringing countless numbers of people to the stand -- all of whom don't want to be anywhere near a courtroom to protect their own self-interests.

Hell, just look at the big news of Friday: it turns out the one leading Democrat, Rep. Conyers, who was vocally pushing for Bush to be brought up on charges, has now been revealed to have his own secret that he was trying to bury and hide: namely, his wife could now be facing a criminal bribery indictment for abusing his office's power to secure financial deals. Gee, maybe it's just me, but the notion that his own wife could be soon standing in front of a judge herself sort of tarnishes the image of him then grandstanding and saying "I'm all for the law and truth to come out!"

Here's the bottom line: everyone who is on the opposite side of aisle to the party currently in power always dreams of tearing the other side down. That's just basic human nature and wanting to see "your side" win. But sad to say, in this day and age, political venom has reached such astounding levels that many people no longer want to see someone just losing their job or being voted out of office -- instead they dream of some nutty Watergate-level conspiracy taking place that is going to tear down absolutely everything in sight. Like a tsunami, it will literally just wipe the other side completely out so that "your side" can now take over for years to come. And unfortunately, Hollywood has done a sensational job (post-Watergate) of selling this bogus idea of all-powerful and all-encompassing conspiracies existing out there, when the truth is there really are none.

The truth is NO administration EVER wants to go after a previous one, simply because it means you THEN expose yourself or your party. You want to go after Bush? Fine -- but then you expose all of the Clinton years that led up to the war, which means the Democrats would actually be putting other Democrats on the firing line. Or look at what's happening now: someone like Conyers wants Karl Rove to testify before Congress, yet Rove is now citing executive privilege and willing to fight it out in court. That puts Obama in a giant bind...and a truly uncomfortable spot...because if he backs a nut job like Conyers and says "Okay, put Rove on the stand" that instantly sets a legal precedent and means over the next 4 years all of HIS advisors can now be made to testify in front of Congress -- or worse, once he's out of office (and, yes, that day will come. After all, we didn't elect him King!) THEN all of his people can be made to testify and reveal confidential information, which I'm sure will include many a conversation that even Mr. Nice Guy Obama would prefer to see kept buried and private.

Politics has too many off-shoots, too many people involved on the Federal level from ALL political parties, which is why everyone will now treat the Bush/Iraq War years as simply something that happened... as something that will be pushed aside now, in the midst of the global economic crisis... and people will prefer for it to simply be something that history will be the final judge on, and not some silly courtroom where ultra-Leftists, consumed in their lingering hate for Bush, are still hoping to get at him even though he's long gone.

For crying out loud, a recent poll showed that a whopping 84% of the American people DON'T support any type of Iraq War hearings or any type of pursuit of Bush for "war crimes", feeling it would only hurt the country and it would be a total waste of money. As I said, they feel we should just move on now since we have this economic crisis to deal with. So, as much as you guys would love to see Bush brought up on "war crimes", keep in mind that 8 out 10 people disagree with you. That's a pretty fucking big number of people that would instantly come up to you and say "What the hell is with you guys? Leave it alone already. We have no interest in this."

Well, considering that a poll just released shows that only 42% of the country now support the Obama economic plan, which means that 58% of the country feels it's a waste of money and it WON'T help the economy...

And considering that other polls show that (on average) about 60% of the American people now feel that CONGRESS is to blame for the economic crisis, every bit as much as Wall Street, for stupidly wasting money on stimulus packages and pork barreling it -- such as Nancy Pelosi wanting to spend $400 million (400 MILLION!!!) on condoms and birth control because, hey, that will really stimulate things (yes, bad pun intended)....

And considering it's been a Democratically controlled Congress for 2 1/2 years now, which means they controlled things going back BEFORE this crisis emerged...

...It's safe to say that with each passing day, as thousands and thousands of people continue to get laid off or lose their homes or see their bank accounts drained, that the glow of Inauguration Day has ALREADY passed.

Always remember rule number one in politics: EVERYONE votes their pocketbook. And no matter how big a smile or friendly a guy he might be, Obama now has to SOLVE this economic crisis, which mind you has escalated to being a GLOBAL crisis. So, in the coming year, Obama has two roads he can go down. It's that simple. He either proves his Harvard brilliance and the economy rights itself, in which case he seals his re-election in 4 years right off the bat...

...Or the economy continues to stay low for another few years, needing time to re-balance itself naturally over time, in which case he suffers the same fate of Jimmy Carter and being the guy who was President when economic times truly sucked, in which case he'll be voted out of office in a landslide (like Carter) because people will blame him for everything.

Bottom line: the "glow of Inauguration" (even a historic one like Obama's, being the first African-American President) will mean NOTHING to the average American if they're out of a job or can't meet their bills.

war crimes
 

During WWII I wonder how many Germans wanted Hitler tried for war crimes.

The meltdown? The consensus is that Greenspan was the key player. The conservative fundamentalist philosophy of Milton Friedman that the Republicans and Greenspan worshiped is what led to this debacle.

Just before you go out on TOO wild a limb, let me get this straight -- now you're comparing any Americans (like myself) who supported the Iraq War OR, as I cited before, the 80-plus percent of Americans who DON'T want to go after Bush, who have NO interest in it AT ALL and who just want to move on, to Nazi Germans???

I would hardly say that's the consensus. But, hey, I'm also sure that the banking regulations that the Clinton era imposed (for example, where banks started to be rated by the government and thus were literally FORCED into making unsecured loans to unqualified and low income people in the name of "social justice") -- not to mention all the corruption and lying that people like Dodd or Frank (democrats both) both participated in as heads of Congressional banking committees -- played NO part at all in the collapse. Nope! It was ALL the Republicans fault and their philosophy, this despite the fact that Democrats (as I noted before) had ALREADY been in control of Congress for 2 years BEFORE the crisis hit.

So, feel free to keep singing that Greenspan/Republican tune and see how far it gets you since all of America is more than fully aware that it's now Obama (democrat) in charge of a Senate (democrat) and a House of Representatives (democrat) who are totally controlling things -- and thus credit AND/OR blame falls squarely on their shoulders. And given what I pointed out before -- namely, that only 40% of the American people now feel the government is doing the right thing and 60% now feel the democrats in Congress are actually making things WORSE -- it's gonna be pretty tough to blame the Republicans much longer.

As I noted before as well, with every passing day...as thousands and thousands of people continue to lose their jobs and homes and bank accounts...or as this meltdown continues to spiral around the world, prompting unrest overseas and protests and violence or whatever...this falls squarely on the Democrats now and THEIR ideological practices. And frankly, they're already running into trouble since not too many people are drinking the kool-aid they're trying to sell these days, with such ridiculously silly ideas such as spending half a billion dollars on condoms for kids or giving honeybees insurance or re-sodding some Washington DC monument lawns is going to give them back their jobs or revive the economy or put money back into their lost retirement accounts.

Bottom line: who do you REALLY think the average American is going to hold accountable come midterm elections IF things don't get substantially better? Do you actually believe they'll be sitting at home...broke and unemployed...and thinking, "Damn that Greenspan! This is STILL all his fault!" OR do you think that maybe...just maybe...they'll be turning on their TVs, seeing Obama and the democrats all over, and find themselves thinking "These guys told me if I put them in power they'd fix everything. And look where I am now!"

Me, I'm going with the latter. Like I said before, people always vote their pocketbook. And since most economists now predict it will take up to 3 years before we see any kind improvement, that isn't good news for the Dems. Then again, Jimmy Carter was the shittiest President ever (yes, even worse than Bush) and even he still goes around saying what a great job he did, so I guess Carter is proof positive that there's always going to be utterly delusional people out there...

people so quickly forget jessie jackson

What distresses me (as an American Libertarian) is that at minimal 30% of votes that are in the democractic favor are fraudulent. i.e. multiple ,dead, non citizens and 'made up' voters. Yet they get away with it because of apathy,stupidity and fear of onslaught by the very anti Republican media. Republicans are not saints by any measure but Democrats are definitly demons in halo's. Many Republicans if given a chance are much as Democrats for example to 'look the other way' towards a individuals lifestyles. Can anyone imagine Republicans dis-owning their gay son's and daughters. Even famous one's like Reagan and Cheney admit to their own children's choice's as their own private matter and have given love and support regardless. What Republicans take heat on is 'not giving ADDED ' rights and privileges such as affirmitive action. That in itself is discrimination. Murder is murder,theft is theft and so on. When a white male kills another white male for money that is a hate crime(he hated that the victim had money he hadn't). Where I want to go with this I have no clue. But I left the Democratic party long after they sold me out and just after I discovered that they play on and use fear from every voter out there to grab self serving power and wealth. I'll challange anyone to list any legislation that took any action to strip anyone of any rights protected by the Constitution. Democrats have. Immigration bill=1967, rights of self defense,from 1968 to current(remember the looting/killing and raping during Katrina) it was a Democrat who dis-armed everyone from their ONLY means of protection. And now,even as Obama speaks of 'change' his stimulus deal allows corporate theives to still get massive bonuses all the while his mouth says otherwise. Get the details and confirm it yourself. I have. Hey, I'm just a libertarian, my party cannot change anything while the 'masses are asses'(an old American phrase used by old currupt democrats over 100 years ago meaning you CAN fool anyone and those you can't, have short memories.). As for one of my best phrases, "Live long and prosper" .

Wow!
 

I am amazed we have hard core Republicans on this site. If my memory serves me well, Senior Bush stated that Homosexuals, Transsexuals and Atheists should be denied the right to vote!:censored:
Anyway, I suppose Republicans will continue to worship Rush Limbaugh as the Germans worshiped Hitler. It is a mean spirited intolerant destructive view of the world which will perpetuate the misery we are in.:frown:

Obama has a sense of humor
 

The nation's first African-American president attended his first Alfalfa Club Dinner as commander in chief last night, and Barack Obama got into the spirit of the evening with jokes aimed at the dinner itself, his famously profane chief of staff and even himself.

According to the White House, among the jokes the president told were:

- "I am seriously glad to be here tonight at the annual Alfalfa dinner. I know that many you are aware that this dinner began almost one hundred years ago as a way to celebrate the birthday of General Robert E. Lee. If he were here with us tonight, the general would be 202 years old. And very confused."

- "Now, this hasn't been reported yet, but it was actually Rahm's idea to do the swearing-in ceremony again. Of course, for Rahm, every day is a swearing-in ceremony."

"But don't believe what you read. Rahm Emanuel (Obama's chief of staff) is a real sweetheart.

"No, it's true. Every week the guy takes a little time away to give back to the community. Just last week he was at a local school, teaching profanity to poor children."

- "But these are the kind of negotiations you have to deal with as president. In just the first few weeks, I've had to engage in some of the toughest diplomacy of my life. And that was just to keep my BlackBerry.

"I finally agreed to limit the number of people who could e-mail me. It's a very exclusive list. How exclusive?

"Everyone look at the person sitting on your left. Now look at the person sitting on your right. None of you have my e-mail address."

As the Associated Press notes, among the others in attendance at the Capitol Hilton in Washington were 2008 Republican presidential nominee John McCain, a senator from Arizona, and his running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.

The dinner is supposed to be off-the-record, but reports of what was said always leak out.

Politico reports that:

Looking to Joe Lieberman, the Democrat-turned-independent-turned McCain supporter, Obama told the Connecticut senator he had no hard feelings.

The door is always open, Obama assured Lieberman, who observes the Sabbath, so feel to drop by -- any Saturday afternoon.

To Palin, Obama expressed surprise to see her with such members of the Washington elite she railed against during the campaign. Or, as he termed it in language Palin is familiar with, "palling around with this crew."

The Washington Post says that Lieberman, who also spoke, "noted that former vice president Richard B. Cheney injured himself while moving into his new home, according to a source inside the dinner. 'I had no idea waterboards were so heavy,' Lieberman quipped."

And, the Post reports:

The incoming club president, Sen. Christopher S. Bond, R-Mo. reminded guests that a newspaper recently published a list of the 25 people most responsible for the global economic meltdown. "You know who you are," he said, according to the source. "And it's good to see you here tonight."

Finally america has a good president.

As an atheist, shemale lover, and sometimes a transvestite, I certainly don't agree with much of the Republican agenda. But... I agree whole heartedly with their fiscal conservatism and anti-welfare stance (well at least for real republicans, there's been too many RINOs lately), and most of their foreign policy.

As for Rush and Hitler, please explain your comparison.

I've given my rundown on the conservative viewpoint of how the meltdown happened here:
Looks like I already have an answer to what Obama will do concerning ACORN, and there's that near $1 trillion dollar bail-out package. ACORN is eligible for $4 billion of Obama's spending package. Gee... it's almost like I'm psychic :rolleyes:

Care to add more meat to your theory?

lol, a republican supporter mentioning the economy! Hey, I got an idea, lets have less regulation, that will solve the crisis caused by unregulated markets!!

and I love the idea of republicans of fiscal conservatives. I didn't realise that mountains of debt and a banking system in collapse was fiscal conservatism.

One example; Rush has demonized "liberals" as if they were a dire threat to the country.:frown:
Hitler demonized "Jews" as if they were a dire threat to the country.:frown:

I grew up as a Republican and I still believe in fiscal conservatism(aka, Eisenhower).:yes:
However, the Republican party has become corrupted by religious fundamentalism and the military/industrial complex. :frown:
Actually, the Democrats are pretty well corrupted and not far behind.:frown:
Obama?? Hope:cool:

This TOTALLY pisses me off. In fact, this is one of the primary reasons why I DO support the concept of a 21st century, modern times and current with today's technology "National ID card" to verify EXACTLY "who" you are and IF you are in fact a legal citizen and all that. Hell, in this day and age, think of it -- you could walk around with ONE card in your wallet that is your Driver's license, your ID card (for voting), it could be programmed and activated as your Mastercard and Visa too, it could hold your medical information in digital form if you were in an accident and suddenly taken to a hospital, it could have your insurance information -- for crying out loud, it could serve as your friggin' library card to boot! With today's technology, it could literally be all sorts of things in one.

Yet why don't we do that? Because those on the ultra Left always bitch that something like a national ID card would be an "invasion of privacy"...it's having "too much information" available...and yet we all go through life with ALL of those things I just mentioned ANYWAY. In fact, if you DON'T have those things, life in the 21st century is essentially tougher on you as well. So even using the base argument of "quality of life" it makes sense to upgrade systems across the board for proper identification of everyone.

Bottom line: you're right, New Believer. Regardless of WHICH political party you belong to...and let the record show that I totally respect the right of everyone to pick a side based on their own personal beliefs....but when you start having numbers that are off at a staggering 30% rate OR -- like we just had in the Obama election where Ohio was an outright joke over voter registrations and irregularities, which the Ohio Election Board REFUSED to even investigate -- then democracy is in the toilet when you can't even stage a fair and honest vote count.

Or new case in point: the still undecided Minnesota Senate race where Norm Coleman had beaten crock of a candidate Al Franken until magically an entire box of uncounted ballots just HAPPENED to be discovered -- after the fact -- in the trunk of someone's car, thus throwing everything into pandemonium. Not to mention, you KNOW the Franken election is for utter shit when even now ALL... yes, ALL... Minnesota polls show that the people there DON'T want Franken in office by a wide and sizable margin. So with such a wide poll margin going in one direction, just who the hell voted for him to supposedly make him the winner, hmm? :frown:

No offense, Randolph, but your memory doesn't seem to be serving you well since I tried Googling this in various ways and could NOT find a single instance of Bush Sr. ever saying that. On the other hand, since you're so interested in personal rights, you CAN easily Google "same sex marriage" and immediately discover that Obama is against that even as we speak.

But, hey, when talking about social rights and politics, why talk about the guy currently in the Oval Office when it's far easier to blur the argument by pointing backwards 17 YEARS in time to mention someone no longer in power?


Ah, the ol' Rush finger pointing tactic as well. You mean Republicans listening to him as opposed to those on the Left worshipping at the media altar of Keith Olbermann and his ego and anger fueled rants...or worshipping a hate-fueled web site like the Daily Kos...which likewise are sooooo helpful to raising the country out of its misery?

Creative Mind
No offense, Randolph, but your memory doesn't seem to be serving you well since I tried Googling this in various ways and could NOT find a single instance of Bush Sr. ever saying that.

This popped up with search (bush atheist)
When George Bush was campaigning for the presidency, as incumbent vice president, one of his stops was in Chicago, Illinois, on August 27, 1987. At O'Hare Airport he held a formal outdoor news conference. There Robert I. Sherman, a reporter for the American Atheist news journal, fully accredited by the state of Illinois and by invitation a participating member of the press corps covering the national candidates had the following exchange with then Vice President Bush.

Sherman: What will you do to win the votes of the Americans who are atheists?

Bush: I guess I'm pretty weak in the atheist community. Faith in god is important to me.

Sherman: Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?

Bush: No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

Sherman (somewhat taken aback): Do you support as a sound constitutional principle the separation of state and church?

Bush: Yes, I support the separation of church and state. I'm just not very high on atheists. :frown:

Obama is interested in saving this country from the irresponsibility of past administrations. We need to FLUSH RUSH!

Bush Quote
 

Last month, Republican Congressional leaders filed into the Oval Office to meet with President George W. Bush and talk about renewing the controversial USA Patriot Act.

Several provisions of the act, passed in the shell shocked period immediately following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, caused enough anger that liberal groups like the American Civil Liberties Union had joined forces with prominent conservatives like Phyllis Schlafly and Bob Barr to oppose renewal.

GOP leaders told Bush that his hardcore push to renew the more onerous provisions of the act could further alienate conservatives still mad at the President from his botched attempt to nominate White House Counsel Harriet Miers to the Supreme Court.

"I don't give a goddamn," Bush retorted. "I'm the President and the Commander-in-Chief. Do it my way."

"Mr. President," one aide in the meeting said. "There is a valid case that the provisions in this law undermine the Constitution."

"Stop throwing the Constitution in my face," Bush screamed back. "It's just a goddamned piece of paper!"

I've talked to three people present for the meeting that day and they all confirm that the President of the United States called the Constitution "a goddamned piece of paper." :frown:

So Creativemind, is Bush is your good buddy???

Did you read the part I wrote in parenthesis? Here, let me reprint it for you.
Perhaps you don't know what RINO means. Republican In Name Only. As for your crack about regulation, the markets HAVE been regulated. It was government intervention that I was referring to above that forced banks to make loans to unqualified recipients. So much for that idea.

You are partially right. Both Republican and Democrats supported easy loans to low income people. Unfortunately, crucial oversite regulations essential to keep the system from spinning out of control were ignored or removed. Greenspan and the rest of the free marketers had the naive view that markets would automatically regulate themselves. They didn't realize that a "free" market opens things up for the Madoff types.

Perhaps he didn't like what Carter did to the country with those double digit inflation rates, double digit interest rates, double digit unemployment, and long gas lines and gas rationing. Yes, these things really did happen. Please tell me how this is not a threat to the country? Please (after reading what I wrote above about ACORN and the CRA), tell me how the CRA is good for the country?

But on to your analogy. You're saying Rush has done to liberals what Hitler has done to the Jews? Rush forces liberals into concentration camps under gunpoint? Rush puts liberals into labor camps and to the gas chamber and runs experiments on them? How many liberals has Rush's men killed? 6 million? 6 hundred? Even 6? Any??? Has he even shot a spit ball at one?

On this we agree :respect:

:censored:

meh, Government is always fail, no matter who is in charge. I wish I had my own Island with Areeya and Sheila Ferraz... yes... oh yes... ok, gotta go take care of something now :turnon::D

they might have been able to save us from 8 years of bush jr? just a thought there, i mean we wouldnt have HAD to listen, but someone could have warned us..oh wait they sort of did. never mind

maybe hank has already answered this, but i am an american and i have an answer as to why people from other countries might doubt the average americans ability to choose thier own leaders.
1. the average american cant find washington dc on a map. go ahead and try it. ask people on the street, you will be SHOCKED
2. most of us are fat lazy and too busy voting on the latest american idol and whether or not sanjaya is hot or funny looking to worry about whether or not we should be going to war
3 speaking of war a shit load of americans STILL BELIEVE THAT IRAQ OR SADDAM BOMBED THE WORLD TRADE CENTER. those same americans cant find iraq on a map(i will bring the map up a few more times i am sure)
4. the "average" american is lucky to have his GED or be able to read. sad but true. most americans are uneducated and our education system is pretty fucked up so even if you did finish high school if you didnt go to a decent college you didnt really learn anything anyway
5 we voted for BUSH JR TWICE!!!
and that last one i think is the one that should be the clincher. if we had another republican as president i think we would have deserved to have europe come over here and take the reins for a little while.

of course i do wonder a few things about this post period
1 why are we discussing obama here in a forum dedicated to ladyboys and populated by(as it seems) very few americans? it just seems out of place thats all
2 what would non americans know about the situation here if they have not lived here? look i wouldnt presume to know anything about english prime ministers, and someone said something about america taking a big inevitable step and voting in a non white as president. other than disraeli who was jewish and i think still technically white, has england had a black prime minister? a woman yeah and that isnt too surprising from a country that has had (has) a queen. so females in high places..not so much a big leap so why is it such a big deal that we have? so what i have news for you, the colour of the mans skin, not such a big issue as you might think(i wouldnt stand next to him if we were down south though)

yeah however you and i know that if he could he fucking would rush is a total douche bag he and that other fat fuck micheal moore are two sides of the same disgusting coin. both of them have thier own agendas and are just stirring up trouble

i think however that randolph was obviously not saying that rush is putting people in concentration camps and its rather foolish of you to take it there.
what he IS saying, is that rush, like those who worked for the nazis is attempting to create an atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and hatred for those who he disagrees with.
he tells blantant lies and blames all the countries woes on the dems. sounds like hitler blaming germanys woes on the jews.

one last reason i thought of as to why others might think americans cant pick leaders for themselves.
we get caught up in what i like to refer to as "non issues" things like abortion, gay marriage. non issues. first its stuff that either states can decie for themselves(like legalizing pot) or things that people can govern for themselves. its really easy. let gay people get married and let people have abortions. it wont cause the end of the world AND if you are gay and choose to get married, or you are preggo and want an abortion then you get one. if you dont want the abortion dont get one and if you dont want gay people to get married, well get over it, it really doesnt effect you anyway.

so these types of snowblinding bullshit issues get thrown around. do you really think the average american understands why our economy is failed, and why we are in the economic troubles we are having.
with that being the case how can we be expected to vote on the complex issues that surround such things, how do we know who is going to properly represent us if we dont know what the proper issues are

Since november I too have had these doubts.

Hell... the average american probably couldn't even:
1. State Newton's 3 laws
2. Identify the prominent mineral on the moon's surface
3. Write a lagrangian equation for a basic pendulum
4. Derive Maxwell's equations in tensor form

or even:
5. Say why Bush Jr attacked Iraq
6. Know that al Qaeda planned to use nerve gas to kill 80,000 people in Jordan, or that the nerve gas came from Iraq before the Iraq war.
7. Knew that Clinton and several democrats in congress had been whining about Iraqi WMD throughout Clinton's terms and right on through till 2003.
8. Know what Obama promised other than 'Change'.
9. Suck their tits while stroking their cock.

If you honestly think that Rush would like to have all liberals gassed, I think you have paranoia issues and a weak grasp of reality. Besides... liberals make up a significant percentage of his audience. He's gotta keep those ratings up.

I think that libs too easily compare republicans they don't like with Hitler (probably because they're attempting to create an atmosphere of fear, paranoia, and hatred for those who they disagree with). To make such comparisons demonstrates a real lack of understanding of one, what the republicans agenda is, and especially two, what Hitler did. Randolph didn't make a comparison between Rush and say, McCarthy, or any of a number of people who would want to lock up their philosophical enemies (even that comparison would be a stretch). Randolf compared Rush to Hitler. I can only assume to say he thought Rush was actually as bad as Hitler.

Actually, this will probably shock you, Randolph (or probably not), but - yes - he is still my "good buddy" because the Constitution IS just a goddamned piece of paper. Well, I take that back since on the surface that sounds rather harsh. Truth be told, I actually consider it to be a blessed piece of paper since I'm religious at heart and I do feel America is God's gift to the world. But all the same, it's still just a piece of paper. Look, here's my personal viewpoint, which is the same basic POINT that Bush was essentially trying to make in his outburst, which you're now trying to demonize or radicalize by taking it out of context...

The Constitution is a legal document, but our Founding Fathers DESIGNED and MEANT for it to be flexible. They DESIGNED and MEANT for it to be altered and amended over time, recognizing that time and history would march on. And even more important, they realized events would change the world around America...they would change the country both without and from within...and thus there would naturally have to be revisions or even all-new interpretations of the Constitution over time. Off the cuff examples: the eventual abolishment of slavery, voting rights for women, etc. The bottom line: the Constitution was NEVER meant to be a document that was SO written in stone that you could NEVER change it or even debate aspects of it.

That's why your anecdote has no weight once you put it into THAT proper context. Because the simple point remains that Bush -- as the sitting President and in the aftermath of 9/11 -- felt that the Patriot Act and it's various tangents needed to be enacted for the security of the country. That was his personal belief and conviction as President, who IS the one person sworn and charged to protect the nation at all costs. As a result, he wasn't going to be swayed from doing what he felt was necessary, which basically makes him the same as all Presidents before him...and, yes, all Presidents yet to come...who will likewise feel that way once they are actually sitting in the Oval Office and feeling the weight and responsibility of protecting the nation upon their shoulders.

Now me -- personally -- that's how I see it. Which is why I agree with Bush's outburst. In fact, again not to shock you, IF I were ever elected President... and IF I were sitting in the Oval Office and there was something that I believed in SO strongly and personally... and IF there was something I felt we absolutely, positively needed to do to ensure the nation's security or prosperity or continuation of particular ideals that I held true to my heart... AND THEN some staffer came up to me and said, "Gee, Mr. President, I'm not sure the Constitution allows for that", I have news for you: I'D SAY THE EXACT SAME THING.

In short, I'd turn to my Chief of Staff and say "Fuck this shit. I'm not listening to this guy. It's a piece of paper that someone is interpreting one way. So, go find me Constitutional scholars and lawyers who see it MY way and let's fight this out in the court until I get my way. Because by all that's holy, I INTEND TO GET MY WAY ON THIS."

Of course, this leads to the far broader discussion that BEING President allows you to pick and appoint Federal Judges...right up to stacking the Supreme Court, if history times itself right while you're the one sitting in the Oval Office...who will see and interpret things "your way" and thus legally allow you to do what you want. But, hey, that's a whole other topic for debate!

Bravo, Tracy. Good for you. That's totally correct and is exactly WHY I hate to ever see the lame-ass "(insert name) is just like Hitler" analogy that the Left loves to fling at the Right so much, in particular because it has NO proper historical context and because, in the end, it actually minimizes the very real horrors that Hitler actually did.

Not to mention it pisses me off as a person and is an analogy that is especially prickly to me -- when it's tossed about and treated lightly -- since I actually DID lose family to that fuck in WWII, who thankfully is now burning in the hottest pits of Hell.

Rush
 

Wow, politics seems to be more exciting than sex on the forum these days. Obviously the allusion to Hitler was extreme. It was simply to make a point that extreme rhetoric from anybody (Hitler, Mussolini, Almadajid(sic), Bin Ladin, etc.) is bad. It stirs up the baser instincts and encourages violent acts. Obviously Rush doesn't come close to being a true agitator, he doesn't have the brains or the charisma. He is a bombastic egocentric opportunist that uses pseudo conservative rhetoric to capture a naive audience.;):lol:

Politics
 

This is from Washington Monthly
While the Country in in free fall we have Republican politics.
A STRUGGLING STIMULUS.... President Obama probably thought this would be easier. He won a sweeping victory in November, and entered office with a huge approval rating. His party enjoys big majorities in both the House and Senate. In the midst of a global economic crisis, the president presented an ambitious stimulus package, which enjoyed support from economists, the business community, state officials, and the public. For a while, the most common criticism of the proposal was that it wasn't big enough, and wasn't prepared to spend enough money.

That was before the White House lost control of the debate.

Watching the reaction from Republicans and most news outlets, I keep thinking of an analogy. There's a nine-alarm fire, and Obama's the fire chief. He wants to send the cavalry, hoping to save lives and contain the fire from spreading out of control, while simultaneously taking fire-prevention steps for the future. Soon, Republicans start wondering if 2% of the tools on the fire-engines are entirely necessary for fighting the fire. Democrats think nine trucks is an excessive number, and maybe if Obama sent seven, it'll make Republicans happier. (Said Sen. Ben Nelson, "I don't know, hundreds of gallons of water sounds like an awful lot.")

Fox News, Rush Limbaugh, Lou Dobbs, and Joe Scarborough try to convince the community that Obama is making a big mistake trying to put out a fire with water, which is just socialism in disguise.

Conservatives want to know why Obama won't just give people a tax cut, so the public can buy fire-extinguishers, axes, and Dalmatians of their own. The Washington Post runs four op-eds from Amity Shlaes, arguing that Fire Chief Roosevelt overreacted during the last nine-alarm fire, and it would have gone out on its own if he'd just left it alone.

And while the fire keeps burning, the Senate wants to figure out how to address the fire in a way that costs less and satisfies the concerns of "centrists."

Senate Democratic leaders conceded yesterday that they do not have the votes to pass the stimulus bill as currently written and said that to gain bipartisan support, they will seek to cut provisions that would not provide an immediate boost to the economy. [...]

Moderate Republicans are trying to trim the bill by as much as $200 billion, although Democrats working with those GOP senators have not agreed to a specific figure.

It's unclear whether the Senate lacks the votes to pass the stimulus plan, or whether the Senate lacks the votes to overcome a Republican filibuster of the plan. I think it's the latter.
-Steve Benen 11:05 AM Permalink | Trackbacks | Comments (15)

Maybe I'm missing something, but I thought the US government didn't actually have $900 billion to spend. But then I didn't think they had $850 billion to spend a couple of months ago, so I must be missing something.

Sex?
 

I am concerned that Ila will pull this thread unless we get some sex in here, so here goes. ;)

As Melissa noted earlier in PEEK, from a CBS story: "Rush Limbaugh was detained for more than three hours Monday at Palm Beach International Airport after authorities said they found a bottle of Viagra in his possession without a prescription."

He was reportedly returning from the Dominican Republic at the time which, as Terrance Heath notes, leaves a big, gaping hole in the story.

What was Rush doing in the Dominican Republic? Why was he returning from a country known for its thriving sex trade, with a bottle of Viagra that didn't have his name on it?

From a 2001 Wired.com article:

the Dominican Republic is one of the biggest sex tourism destinations in the world, thanks in part to Internet sites that extol the country as a "single man's paradise."

...

Among banner ads for Viagra, members can shuffle through pictures of dull-eyed prostitutes engaged in flagrante delicto with the members/amateur pornographers.

Is it fair to go after Limbaugh for his woes? Of course, just as it's fair game to out gay politicians who support bigoted policy toward gays.

Limbaugh inveighs against medical marijuana users regularly, making him a WORLD CLASS HYPOCRITE.

But I like Terrance's alliterative aspersions:

These are not nice questions, which is why most people won't ask them. But Rush is not a nice guy. And when a pundit whose party pokes its noses into people's private affairs as a matter of policy is caught pocketing pills to pump up his penis, on his way back from a country plenteous with prostitutes...:rolleyes:

Well pardon me if I'm compelled to prod and ponder why this public personality required a prescription for his penis in that place, and where he put it while he was there. :eek:

Humm, I doubt he could shut up long enough to get the Viagra to work.:lol:

LOL that is a good one :lol:

Sure it's ok to drudge this stuff up on him. We're all human, and that's just funny anyway.

Some people conveniently forget positions from past administrations that spent trillions on bogus foreign wars all the while cutting taxes for the upper 1% of populace. America has not only outsourced many of its jobs overseas, but has now outsourced (over MANY years) our future economic prosperity to too much leverage-- a position which sunk the current economy to begin with, only in the hands of banks/businesses/consumers as opposed to government.

That said, I AM being critical of W's administration, but as an independent, I'm HIGHLY skeptical of the scale of the current government spending. I've been sick at home for a few days, and I don't know what it says for my state of mind/boredom, but I've been watching C-Span many hours a day. And I must say, my personal opinions have been largely resonating with Republican politicians who are skeptical and opposed to such tremendous amounts of government spending.

spending
 

That said, I AM being critical of W's administration, but as an independent, I'm HIGHLY skeptical of the scale of the current government spending. I've been sick at home for a few days, and I don't know what it says for my state of mind/boredom, but I've been watching C-Span many hours a day. And I must say, my personal opinions have been largely resonating with Republican politicians who are skeptical and opposed to such tremendous amounts of government spending.

It remains to be seen whether we can spend our way out of this debacle. Since the government can create (print) money, this might reduce the future tax load on our children. However, printing money often results in inflation. Oh Oh My, Obama has his work cut out for him and the Republicans will make it even more difficult.:frown:

Huh?? Between this package and the bail out package as well as our usual budget overruns, we will be borrowing 2.5 trillion dollars this coming year. You can't just magically print it. Maybe that's why democrats are falling for this BS. They think Obama will just pull the money out of his ass. He'll probably lower taxes on the lower income. Maybe even mid-income. But he'll be raising taxes on the rich for sure. You know... the ol tax the people who actually make this economy work, and let the rest leech off it ploy. But everyone who needs a loan (and their children, and their children's children) will be facing tougher times ahead when interest rates go up to pay off this gargantuan debt.

Yes the debt is very scary! However, we had four trillion in debt after WWII and managed to get over, it somehow. We also managed to get over the huge Reagen debt while Clinton was President. It seems our financial system is a gigantic Ponzi scheme, we need to keep pouring money into one end to make it work.:frown:

We didn't get to $4 trillion until '92 during the first Gulf War. And at no time has the debt ever gone down. See this chart here. You might be thinking of the budget surplus that Clinton managed by the end of his term.

Yes your right. Thanks for the graph.:cool:

Well, first of all, Tracy already corrected you on the history of debt size.
So, good job there, Tracy!

As for the rest of what you wrote, I just have to say -- no offense -- that this is ALSO the crock of party ideologies and sort of demonstrates (perhaps accidentally and unintentionally) how too many people can get caught up in their party and NOT looking at the ACTUAL problem and how to resolve it best. Case in point, look at what you just said. You wrote (quote): "We also managed to get over the huge Reagan debt while Clinton was President." So, on the surface, you seem to be sneering a bit at Reagan (Republican), blaming him for a huge debt which thankfully Clinton (Democrat) saved us from. Well, Clinton actually didn't, but that's a whole other topic!

Yet all the same, think about this.
WHY did Reagan get elected?

Answer: because all of America hated...I mean just HATED...Jimmy Carter. I mean, seriously, is there anyone here old enough to actually remember the Carter years? Who suffered through them? We had an energy crisis and the price of gas was through the roof -- and that's when you could even find gas, since we also had rationing and gas lines that wrapped around city blocks. In fact, the ties between energy production and tense relations with the Middle East got SO bad that Carter (yes, Jimmy boy) actually had to go on national TV and give a speech declaring that the Persian Gulf was now considered SO vital to the national security of the United States that any attempts by a Middle East country or political faction to try and interfere with the flow of oil to the U.S. would be considered an act of war. To this day I still I remember watching Carter's speech in college with friends, and all of us looking at each other and only half-jokingly saying "So when we all get drafted, which branch do you want to end up in?" Carter's Middle East policies were a disaster --capped off by the historic Iranian hostage situation and the botched rescue mission which was such a clusterfuck that it only further proved how incompetent Carter was.

And then there was the Carter economy, of which there is NO historic dispute: namely, it SUCKED. There was double-digit unemployment AND double-digit inflation. Let me say that again: it was DOUBLE DIGIT which means it was actually WORSE than what we're facing now. To put it mildly, the economy under Carter was in the complete shitter. So with all of that going on, the American people viewed Carter as a total peanut-farmer fuck-up, a simple southern boy that the presidency was above, who simply had to go. So he was booted out of office, leaving the U.S. in some serious economic and foreign woes. Gee, sound familiar? Of course, it gets even better, because here's your lesson in history repeating itself...

When Reagan came to office the first thing he said was we needed to do was cut taxes AND increase government spending. We needed to jump-start the U.S. economy BIG TIME. And he did since here's NO debating what Reagan ultimately did. The Reagan years and his fiscal policies led to one of the GREATEST economic expansions in ALL of American history and the recovery he oversaw -- reversing the dismal Carter era -- was nothing less than startling and miraculous.

Which is why I find it hysterical whenever the Left talks about the "Reagan debt" and sneers about it (as well as usually adding a side note how Clinton saved us all) or goes on about the money Reagan spent to get us out of the Carter recession...

...Yet this is the SAME Left that now is out championing at the top of their lungs savior Obama (oops, I meant President Transparency) and HIS plan to spend a TRILLION DOLLARS doing exactly what Reagan did, only Obama wants to do it on a FAR more mammoth scale.

So, the way I see it, given the Obama stimulus plan, the Left has now officially and 100% lost ALL rights to ever bitch about Reagan or any debt he ran up, since he (or his proportionate debt load) will now not even be in the same league as the toilet Obama is now going to flush us down. Frankly, I think the Obama plan is just overflowing with bullshit political pork, not to mention it's a colossally bad joke that's only going to bite us in the ass and tank the economy more. Case in point, I loved that the other day when Timothy Geitner, the so-called "financial genius" (and tax cheat, which I guess makes him a financial genius) that Obama declared we HAD to have as Treasury Secretary (because he was the ONLY person who could handle this crisis) FINALLY unveiled his ideas for what should be done...

...At which point the stock market tanked another 500 points.

Good job! Can't wait to see what's next!

Poke
 

Poking fun at Republicans can be quite entertaining, they are so wedded to the fantasies of dear old Uncle Miltie. In his old age he admitted he was wrong on a lot of his monetary theories. Why? because he didn't factor the criminal element. So lets see now, how many Republicans were arrested during the Bush administration? :frown:

Reflublicans
 

It looks like the Reflublicans are willing to take down the country with their failed party.

Paul Krugman noted today that congressional Republicans, instead of acting "chastened" after electoral and governmental failure, remain committed to "deep voodoo," and arguments that have "bordered on the deranged."

Given all of this, Andrew Sullivan argues that the Republican Party has "declared war" on the president.

Their clear and open intent is to do all they can, however they can, to sabotage the new administration (and the economy to boot). They want failure. Even now. Even after the last eight years. Even in a recession as steeply dangerous as this one. There are legitimate debates to be had; and then there is the cynicism and surrealism of total political war. We now should have even less doubt about what kind of people they are.

Tough stuff, to be sure. The question, I suppose, is what the White House -- and a president who's repeatedly committed to trying to find common ground with the failed minority party -- is going to do about it. If Sullivan is right, and the Republican Party is driven by a combination of partisan schemes and a desire to see Obama fail, how will the administration respond?

Joe Klein argues, persuasively, that the president "should have no illusions about the good faith of his opponents."

Obama should now understand that the Republicans are not reliable partners -- at least, not for the moment. Most are stuck in the contentious past, rutted in Reaganism, intent on taking a Hooverist course on the economy (although there remains cause for optimism on foreign policy). The President's default position, after the stimulus fight and the Gregg fiasco, should be to appoint Democrats to significant domestic policy positions -- the notion of making a public show of bipartisanship, by reaching across the aisle to someone like Senator Gregg, gives the opposition too much credibility and leverage. :censored::frown:

You could have slightly reworded this to talk about the democrats and the Bush administration.

This could have been written in 2004 and would have been very accurate. It's amazing how the democrats have such amnesia over how they have treated Bush over his presidency. And now they expect to govern as if nothing has happened. The democrats have blamed EVERYTHING on Bush - from Clinton's CIA intelligence screwups to the Carter & Clinton financial mess to steering Hurricane Katrina to the poor areas of New Orleans with some classified weather machine. So drop the act. The BS has been so prevalent that you have to have really been paying attention while things happened, or do some serious research to cut through it.

Now you guys want to pass this spendulus package with all the obvious pork it contains. When we're deep into a recession, how can you POSSIBLY justify overspending by $2.5 TRILLION???! Seriously... tell me what a good idea that is.

Capitalism
 

Today my wife and I had lunch at a local restaurant. My wife went to the restroom and overheard two lesbians badmouthing Obama. As we left the restaurant, they drove off in a new Mercedes sports car. I guess I have more to learn about capitalism.:confused::lol:

You sit there, with cock out and everything and you and your kind have had eight horrible years to screw up the entire world... which you did! Luckily you're GONE! One can only hope that the reactionary front will for ever be gone.

You and that regime that you voted for has created SO much havoc in this little world, and you still are fucking cocky enough to plead your case? Shame on you, shame on you.

Geo Bush and Dick Cheney were the most incompetent (and most likely corrupt) socalled leadership this world has ever witnessed... and you still salute them? How can you? It's simply beyond me.

But you're beyond reach - a true believer, I guess.

Good riddance.

H

support
 

Geo Bush and Dick Cheney were the most incompetent (and most likely corrupt) socalled leadership this world has ever witnessed... and you still salute them? How can you? It's simply beyond me.

Hey Hank, Thanks for the support. It's sadly apparent that Reflublicans will never change. They will be on the street living out of their cars along with the rest of us and they will still blame somebody else. They are incapable of taking any responsibility for their actions. Fuck em!:censored:

So you can't say it's a good idea. I don't blame you. Well Republicans can't either so that's why they're not voting for it.

Trillions
 

Tracy
Now you guys want to pass this spendulus package with all the obvious pork it contains. When we're deep into a recession, how can you POSSIBLY justify overspending by $2.5 TRILLION???! Seriously... tell me what a good idea that is.

Well it's not a good idea when we are already deep in debt. So what should we do, give the remaining rich a tax break? Or, here is a novel idea, lets start a war! Wars have got us out of depressions in the past. Oops, I forgot, we are already in a war that has cost trillions thanks to the Bush/Cheny con job. So maybe it will work to help people keep their jobs, borrow money and get the economy flowing again by pouring money into the system. For the sake of all of us including the skeptics, it better WORK!

Capitalism
 

For any one interested in politics, democracy and capitalism, I am reading and recommend the "The Shock Doctrine" by Naomi Klein, a bestseller. She helps clarify what Milton Friedman and Reaganomics is all about.:yes:

No one is saying give the rich a tax break. They're already paying 35% to taxes. What percentage are you paying?

Whatever was spent on the Iraq war over the last 5+ years was matched this WEEK ALONE on the spendulous package. I thought the republicans were overspending, but DAYYYUM!

I'm sure there are at least a few things in there to actually create jobs and stimulate the economy. But a very large percentage does not stimulate the economy. Let's not forget something. Every penny of this spendulus package comes from foreign money that we will have to pay back. How will we pay it back?

In order of really obvious to debatable is:
First, all the pork that has nothing to do with stimulating the economy (and there is a LOT), should be cut out of the stimulus package. This is one of those No Shit things and should be obvious to anyone outside of Washington, regardless of your party.

Second, cut out everything that provides for illegal aliens. Providing services to illegal aliens encourages more of them to come into the country and consume resources tax free. This does not stimulate the economy - it does the opposite.

Third, all the billions in thanks-for-getting-Obama-elected money for groups like ACORN, Hollywood, etc should be cut out. That has no business in a stimulus package, and there's no reason my kids and their kids should incur debt for that.

Fourth (here's where it starts getting trickier for democrats), there's a whole class of services the bill wants to provide that parents are perfectly able to provide. Give the people tax breaks, or make it easier for corporations to hire more people and people will be able to provide these things for their selves and their own children. It's more efficient and it gives people pride to be able to support themselves and their families.

Fifth (even more tricky for democrats), the government should not be in the business of buying homes for people. That is insane.

Sixth (democrats wet dream), no national health care for the general population. This is way too costly.

Cutting all these things should be seriously considered when you consider for a moment that we don't have the money to do this. If you don't agree, tell me why these things are important enough to add another $800 billion to our national debt. Again, how will we pay it back? The US govt is going to have to start spending less than it receives in taxes. Will we be able to do this? The spendulus package will create jobs at government expense. To spend less than the govt receives, those jobs will eventually have to be axed. Unless we're going to tack on another several hundred billion dollars to our budget every year for the foreseeable future. Extra points if you can tell me what the effect of a rapidly growing debt does to the economy.

Before you go on a rant again about the republicans, I will whole heartedly agree that they have spent too much as well. I will not agree that they caused the financial mess over the last 8 years though when Bush has been warning congress throughout his two terms about it, and the roots of the financial problems started 30 years ago. But yes, they have spent too much.

So Obama says
Now Obama is revising history himself, but aside from that, he spent half of his speech saying how the policies of the last 8 years wrecked the economy, then says they doubled the debt. So his solution is to increase the debt another 25% in his first 2 months of office?

And yet ironically for both Hank and Randolph, new polls out this weekend show that for opposing Obama's spending plan, Republicans have actually GAINED significant Congressional approval ratings and -- wait for it -- now trail the Democrats by only one mere point. In fact, other polls show that with the Obama plan now out there, if the midterm elections were held right now...this very day...the Republicans would likely gain back seats in Congress, thus thwarting the Obama dynasty even more. Which just goes to show you have fast political fortunes are won and lost.

And with that in mind, it's no wonder that the far Left is getting vocally disgruntled and angry at Obama themselves, since they too realize the clock is ticking down on them...that Middle America and the more moderate, middle of the road Clinton democrats don't like what they're seeing...and thus they realize if they don't ram through their ultra Left programs now, come midterms it really will be over.

So for Hank -- when you're out bitching about the "last 8 years", DO try to remember that it was the Democrats and NOT the Republicans who completely controlled Congress for the last 2 of those years, which (gee, what a shock) is ALSO when the economy started to go into the toilet...

And for Randolph -- when you're out on the street pushing your car, likewise try to remember those two lesbians you mentioned before, who are now ALSO bitching about Obama because that paints a FAR more telling picture.

Overall, Obama is starting to show the classic signs of a politician who needs to get his act together. And since he's only been in office a short bit, he needs to do it fast or else he will become Jimmy Carter Part 2. Right now people are still willing to give him -- as the new guy on the job -- the benefit of the doubt for a little bit longer him...but only for a LITTLE BIT longer. That's why Obama's PERSONAL approval rating is still up around 65-70% right now, and yet support among the American people for his stimulus plan is only at 30-odd percent. In short, people like the GUY, but they don't like his PLAN, nor are they buying the typical bullshit that the Left is trying to ram down everyone's throats right now (which actually brings us back to a basic political notion that, on the whole, America is still "center right". In short, people don't mind SOME change, but they don't want DRASTIC change.)

The bottom line is this: in every single poll out there, the OVERWHELMING majority of Americans are worried more than ever before. The BAD news for Obama right now is that polls show the vast majority of Americans STILL feel his stimulus plan is all wrong, no matter how many speeches he gives... they STILL doubt it will work at all, and they STILL feel it's filled with more pork than actual job creation... and worst of all (and what truly scares the utter shit out of them) people also overwhelmingly feel that Obama and the Democrats are planning to come knocking on their door YET AGAIN to collect and spend even MORE money.

So, you guys can rant about "the last 8 years" and do your usual tirades about Bush all you want. But he's gone, Obama is in charge, and the American people are NOT the type to ever look back -- the truth is they're looking Obama square in the eyes and saying "This crisis hit the fan BEFORE election day. You TOLD us that IF we elected you, YOU would have all the answers. So shut up about Bush and PROVE you really did deserve this job. Otherwise you're history in 4 years." And as I noted before, it's certainy bad news for Obama and the Democrats that approval ratings for their economic choices are tanking... that they're decisions have caused Wall Street to slide even further into a dark hole... and most amazingly of all, for all the bitching that people like Hank might do as an overseas citizen, it must amaze him to know that here in America Republican approval ratings are actually back UP now and only 1 point behind Obama and the Dems.

Creative mind
 

The bottom line is this: in every single poll out there, the OVERWHELMING majority of Americans are worried more than ever before. Creativemind

Well duh! we are descending into a depression! Can Obama's program save us, I sure hope so. The consequences of failure are dire indeed. As Naomi Kline points out in her new book, the capitalists will further erode our democracy and we will end up with plutocracy with no say in government, no civil rights and no freedom of speech. I am afraid the Reflublicans in their delight in wishing Obama's failure are inviting what they fear most, the loss of our democracy.:censored::frown:

So be it?
 

by David Glenn Cox
Excerpt from "Let the Sky Fall"

Let us wipe the stars from our eyes. These Republicans are not going to cooperate, not now, not ever. They will use every tool at their disposal to subvert, obstruct, divert, and defame because, in the words of their hero, they want to see Obama fail. If you or a few million other Americans suffer, well, they just don't care. Why should they? They never cared before; they're the party of self, self-righteous and self-aggrandizing. They accept their wealth as a God-given prerogative to rule over the unwashed multitudes. Even now they preach if we don't do anything the economy will fix itself in a year or two. We just have to take our medicine, but what they mean is you have to take their medicine and that's just too bad for you.

They have proven by their behavior that they are not a party of democratic principles but a party of semi-compassionate fascism. They will cede no ground because of an election, or a wave of public sentiment. They will do whatever they deem necessary to bring down this administration, even let the sky fall.

So, let the sky fall, let the sun crash and commence with the days of iron rain. Let the blood of the guilty and the tears of the innocent mix and intermingle in the sewers of greed. They seek the truth through gold, eternal life through eternal wealth, and the gospel of freedom through the cleansing of the iron rain. They see men as tools and tools as men; Heaven and Hell being all in one place, at their discretion alone. The war has begun, the blood will flow into the crop circles of the damned, and in the puddles of the iron rain.

Source?

What makes you think we're descending into a depression? The liberal news media? Obama's rhetoric? Despite their criticisms of the Republicans using scare tactics to stir up support for the war, the democrats (and their press secretaries... I mean the media) are using scare tactics to convince people that this is the end of times, and therefore drastic measures need to be taken, like putting us much further into debt.

We're at 7.5% unemployment now, which sucks, but it's nowhere near the 25% during the great depression. What numbers are you looking at?

Better go buy 1000 cans of pork & beans, get a shotgun, and hide in a bomb shelter with all your cash.


Who says it'll fix itself in a year or two? Probably more like 5-10 years. But at least after that we won't have a larger debt or expensive social programs to deal with. I think it's better if we cut spending. Isn't that what you'd do if you were over spending and had lots of debt? The govt should also free up cash flow for businesses. Those businesses ARE the economy. Not the government.

Agreed, I thought that's what Obama is trying to do, provide cash to get businesses going again.

Oh, by the way, I LIKE your new avatar!:p:drool::turnon::coupling:

Only 3% of the stimulus package is for general businesses. Although if you're in the business of "green energy", you'll do better.

Thanks :)