Close but no cigar. An Obama led panel of "non-partisan" experts are only going to provide "expertly" fudged numbers that will probably favor Lord Zero and whatever he wants.

And last I checked, Obama spent more than Bush. Zero had the chance to change things, but spent more money instead.

(sigh -- again) And the guy who gets laid off at 55 who is having trouble finding a job with benefits is screwed. Or how about the person in between jobs through no fault of their own who needs major medical assistance. Hardworking people who contribute to society should not be penalized with their life hanging in the balance by a health system tied to the "strength" of a company. Go tell the child of a laid off Chrysler employee why their father can't get a proper assessment of his heart condition. A downturn in the economy shouldn't be a death sentence. Extreme statement yes -- but for some, sadly true.

LOCAL:

To Conse 'Pubs those people either don't exist, are at fault, or are a handful of people out of millions. They feel neighbors, relatives, friends or charities should foot the bill, and not the ONLY people who work and pay taxes: THEM. Of course, I wouldn't count on them if I needed help, because they'd plead poverty to go with a lecture.


TAL

As the French Princess Marie Antoinette supposedly said when told the peasants were starving "let them eat cake"

""THE ARISTOCRATS"" have their eyes wide open, it's the people that are blind. THE ARISTOCRATS are bypassing unpredictable politics and media and flexing their muscles in the Supreme Court. No one is above the Law. Except THE ARISTOCRATS.

He's 55 and he hasn't built up any savings? Seriously?? That's what my dad had to use when he was laid off at 55. And no, he's not rich. It took him about a year but he got back into work. He's 67 now and is now making good money.

You show up in an ER, they have to treat you. The Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor (EMTALA) Act mandates that everybody must be seen without regard for ability to pay.

I don't know. Cobra is supposed to maintain whatever benefits you had on the job.

Here's an idea. Why doesn't BO work on what Americans REALLY want him to work on? Jobs. BO said his stimulus plan would stop unemployment at 8% last February. So much for that. He should stop screwing this economy by putting us into huge debt and work on making our economy strong again so people aren't out of a job needing health benefits!

After reading your post I think it's pretty clear that it's in democrats best interest to keep the public dependent on government. That way all their big government plans are justified. And it's a self fulfilling prophecy. Grow government, and screw the public so the public becomes dependent on big government.

Conservatives are for small government and allowing people to control their own lives.

The operative word here being "supposedly." According to the following sources Marie Antoinette never did say this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake

If you don't like wikipedia then how about the following two sources

http://ask.yahoo.com/20021122.html

http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/l...-eat-cake.html

Or should anyone so desire just do an internet search on the phrase "let them eat cake."

IT'S HIS OWN FAULT.

COBRA IS EXPENSIVE EVEN IF YOU HAVE A JOB.

I think we're getting to the mystery of why Tracy is such a rabid Republican. Your Dad's a lifelong member of the GOP, right? And you love your Dad unconditionally, Right?

Yes, that's why I put "supposedly" nobody really knows who first said it.

Do all rabid republicans such as myself struggle for weeks to decide if they're going to vote for Bush Sr or Clinton? Do they defend some of Clinton's policies against republicans? I even had to think about Gore vs Bush Jr, though now that I know Gore better... whew. Dodged that bullet. How many rabid republicans do you know that are atheists, or who are fine with gays and obviously fine with transladyboys? How many republicans criticize Bush Jr as anti-science? Too religious? For his stem-cell policy? For saying the constitution is just a piece of paper?

There are many subjects we have not talked about other than the narrow focus of Obama's economics and terrorism. So really Dr. Jim, I think that's all you know about me and I doubt you know anything about my dad.

Hmm, sounds like I hit a nerve!

Or you were mistaken, one of the two.

Reality?
 

Everybody has their own reality. Conservatives have their reality. Liberals have their reality. As humans we naturally gravitate to groups and news that matches our reality. For example, almost 50% of the people in the country watch Fox news and believe it is reliable and honest. Fox News fits their perception of reality therefore it is reliable and honest. The facts are otherwise, Fox News obviously caters to the conservatives in the country. They say what conservatives want to here. The same is true of liberal media. I listen to PBS's Bill Moyer's. I believe what he says and think he is a really good guy, that's my reality. Perhaps we are genetically endowed to "fit" into certain political/ideological categories. Tracy and I are poles apart politically but we both love this country. That's the way its always been since the first George.;)

Yes. Both parties and sides obviously cater their "respective" groups. The problem is when people focus on the whole "this vs. that" instead of what each side is proposing. If people took the time to look at a problem objectively and not what "feels good" and actually look at what both parties propose (expanse of government powers, diminishing individual liberties) they would be actually disgusted with what is going on.



"All those who offer an opinion on any doubtful point should first clear their minds of every sentiment of dislike, friendship, anger or pity."-Sallust

"What is ominous is the ease with which some people go from saying that they don't like something to saying that the government should forbid it. When you go down that road, don't expect freedom to survive very long."-Thomas Sowell

“One of the common failings among honorable people is a failure to appreciate how thoroughly dishonorable some other people can be, and how dangerous it is to trust them”-Thomas Sowell

“If you have been voting for politicians who promise to give you goodies at someone else's expense, then you have no right to complain when they take your money and give it to someone else, including themselves”-Thomas Sowell

"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws"-Tacitus

RANDY:

My gripe isn't with perception based on ideology; it's that there are 2 types of debate: honest and political. Political debate is what allows Conse 'Pubs to say: It's only my opinion that Obama is an American, and others don't feel that way.

Then there is the wordplay trickery. Chicago pols are crooks and Obama is from Chicago, which proves Obama is a crook. Bill Ayers was a terrorist and Obama met Ayers, which prove Obama is a terrorist. Guilt by association, guilt by geography. Of course, it is worded to look like something else.

TAL

Truth is free, power costs money. If the house and senate had to vote on what color purple is, the results would be divided along party lines. Reddish blue or bluish red.
If a reliable voice-stress lie-detector were ever invented, you'd find out all our leaders are lying, and all the people know nothing. How could they?

The old tried and true
 

JIM:

The first liar was the first pharaoh.


TAL

Brown's win forced a complete rewrite of TMF's speech. Instead of health care he's forced to listen to what the people want - Jobs. So he'll talk about jobs tonight, not because he wants to. Because he has to. And because he failed at his promise of creating jobs by last February so the issue is still here.

Create jobs a year ago? The economy was spiraling into a black hole! Surely, he should have focused as much on saving jobs as he focused on saving the banks. But even for God things take time and Obama is not God, right?
And politicians regardless of political persuasion never get things done properly, anyway.
They are too busy counting the money from lobbyists. Six hundred million form the drug/health industry for example.
Yes, he lost touch with his base after getting elected. He is no FDR that's for sure.:frown:

Let Me Get This Straight!!
 

TRACY:

Bush 43 wasn't a true Conse 'Pub: end of story?

Obama had how long to fix everything to your satisfaction?

Replace him now with a true Conse 'Pub?

How long does 45 get to fix things?

TAL

FDR was a shithead who didn't care for the "working man", the person he was supposedly trying to help. I'd say they're in the same boat.

WHOOOOAH, there, pardner!!!

FDR took the United States from the Depression to SUPERPOWER status!
Your Republican buddies took us from SUPERPOWER status to the Depression!!! Read a book, Man!!!

The New American History
 

JIM:

According to Conse 'Pubs, this is the Obama Depression, and did not involve BUSH.

The Great Depression lasted so long because of FDR, according to Conse 'Pubs.

FDR & Obama failed, while Hoover and Bush were just average residents in The WH.

TAL

Did not involve Bush?:innocent:

OK Tal, you are putting us on, Right?;)

Yeah, last year TMF said unemployment would go no higher than 8.5% because of his stimulus package. It busted that in february.

Well he'll burden generations to come as FDR did at least.

Don't blame me. I'm using the timetable Obama promised.

Hey, don't knock Jimmy, my savings were paying 10% in those days.:yes:

And I'll bet your mortgage rates were close to 20%.

TRACY:

Can you be a bit more specific?

What was he suppose to do by when?

Sorry, Conse 'Pubs tend to make promises for opponents, yell that said promises were broken, and your evasiveness doesn't inspire confidence.

TAL

My mortgage, at that time, was from the 1960s at 5%, fortunately.
You recall, that when Reagan came in the rates came down and so did the Saving and Loan industry. Some of the Bush boys were involved in that fiasco.

And you obviously need to research Executive Order 9066.

Sorry, I meant he said he would stop unemployment from rising above 8.5%. That's what he said his stimulus package would do. And by February of 09 it wizzed past that number.

The first stimulus was completely ineffective in creating jobs. So why should we allow the government to print another several hundred billion$ or even a trillion$ for another BS jobs bill?

TRACY:

So, counting 1/20 for 13 days in January to go with 28 days in February, you are ready to stamp failure on his presidency after 41 days?

TAL

I don't need to research nothin'!! We WON WWII. We LOST IRAQ II. I don't need a cherry picker to figure that out. Who's your lawyer? Alito?

Jimbo, I believe that it is you who needs to read a book.

I'm not contesting about which wars we won. If you had actually bothered to look up 9066, you would have found out that your homeboy FDR had imprisoned hundreds of thousands of Japanese citizens, held them in internment camps, suspended their rights and had them arrested without grounds for due cause and seized their property and assets simply because they were Japanese. That today is known as "racial profiling"...

As I said before, FDR was a shithead and he shit on the Constitution the entire time he was in office.

Click on the links if you don't believe me.

http://www.ourdocuments.gov/doc.php?flash=true&doc=74

http://www.pbs.org/childofcamp/history/eo9066.html

http://historymatters.gmu.edu/d/5154

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Executive_Order_9066


What do you think of him now?

Let Me Get This Straight!!
 

ANGRY:

You're judging FDR's 4 terms based on one HUGH mistake in the 40's, and judging it by standards 60-70 years later, like the founders having slaves and growing pot. Or do they get a pass?

You condemn FDR for ONE thing for 12 years? Hoover did nothing for The Great Depression, and Bush 43 has 116 questionable acts in 8 years. What about them?

Are you saying Obama & FDR are crap, while you say little or nothing on Hoover & Bush 43? Or am I taking you wrong?

TAL

The principles remain the same even if we are judging it 60-70 years later.

You are taking me wrong. FDR did a hell of alot more damage than just 9066.

How about we start from the beginning, the gold confiscation.

http://www.the-privateer.com/1933-go...fiscation.html
http://www.fgmr.com/the-confiscation-threat.html

And some more:

FICA (Bankrupting us today)- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_In ... ns_Act_tax

National Labor Relations (Wagner) Act (AFL-CIO circle jerk) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagner_Act

Fair Labor Standards Act (minimum wage) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act

Agricultural Adjustment Administration (Farmaid) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Labor_Standards_Act

United States Housing Authority (Affordable Housing!) - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... _Authority

Note that all of the above listed policies have come and bitten us in the ass at some point since their inception.

Social Security has trillions of dollars of unfunded liabilities on its balance sheet.

The Wagner Act is the basis for the Democrats' new push for Card Check.

The federal minimum wage has succeeded in accomplishing nothing and keeping the youngest American workers out of the work force and underemployed.

Farmaid has succeeded in not only redistributing massive amounts of wealth, but also by lowering the productivity of farmers (which brings about other unforeseen losses to our economy), while also subsidizing American farmers to put farmers in third world countries at an economic disadvantage, thus putting them out of business. We used to import large quantities of crops from farmers in north and central Africa, but now that we have successfully put them out of business through our farm subsidies, we now feel the need to send billions dollars more to them every year to help them in their economic suffering (induced by us). So let's keep a tally of the financial and economic costs of Farmaid: (1) Billions of tax dollars removed from the private sector (2) to pay farmers (3) to be unproductive. (4) Putting third world farmers out of business and then feeling sorry for them, so we (5) send them billions more dollars in foreign aid to help ease the problem that we created. There's five prices we pay just so we can say we "buy American."

And here we are getting pissed at China for subsidizing their tire manufacturers and undercutting US companies... Well fuck us, we're no better! We do it every day!

And, of course, the venerable AFFORDABLE HOUSING INITIATIVE. I'm not going to delve too deeply into this one... but as we all know it's the root cause of the current recession. So, enough about that.

Obama is trying to tread down the same disasterous path of FDR.

ANGRY:

Are you a Libertarian who wants to go back before and get rid of social security, Medicare, Welfare, and all other government programs with no restrictions on a free-market system? No wonder you're angry.

Only Obama & FDR are the criminals? Hoover and Bush must have done a lot of good things you'd like to spout off about?


TAL

I am not saying that Bush and Hoover are exempt from anything either. However, Bush did not spend roughly 2trillion dollars his first year in office and drive this country as deeply into debt as Obama did. I don't like alot of Bush's policies and I think he dropped the ball on quite a many things. But he did not fuck us over as badly as Obama did with his "stimulus".

Hoover was another shithead that started the same type of crap that FDR took further. Wilson, LBJ, Nixon, Carter and the Bush's are also on my presidential shitlist.

ANGRY:

If your argument is that FDR is a socialist, save the links; I won't go there.

TAL

Government programs are why we are in the shit we are in.

That's the kicker. Politically, how do you end Social Security without it simply collapsing under its own weight? We can't just end it. Ignorant people will claim that "their money" is in the fund and they deserve to have it back... little do they realize "their money" was spent as soon as it was taken from their pay check. And politicians won't have the heart to tell them that, particularly the leftists that are in power at the time. Admitting this would force them to realize their ideology is a failure... and they are intellectually incapable of doing that. Either way, whether it is ended politically, or collapses financially, the result will be detrimental to whichever retired generation it disappears under. There's just no way to fix it without committing political suicide, so they aren't going to touch it.

Reserving judgment on the potential this current administration has, FDR was by and large the worst president in US history, followed very closely by Wilson and H Hoover. Bad presidents would follow, but it's FDR's policies that will be our financial ruin.



“No matter how disastrously some policy has turned out, anyone who criticizes it can expect to hear: "But what would you replace it with?" When you put out a fire, what do you replace it with”-Thomas Sowell

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said that. Besides, the links are from everyones favorite site for info: wikipedia.

The clarity! It burns huh?

ANGRY:

I was asking a question in order for both of us to save time on a fruitless argument. Why would the clarity burn?

TAL

Yes, see what I wrote in the Obama thread. By the end of February, BO overspent what it would have taken Bush 20 years to overspend. I know it's hard to grasp how monumentally he screwed us, but it's true.

TRACY:

41 days? You were so positive?



So, you don't believe Cheney when he said they had to do the bailout to avoid a Great Depression?


TAL

You really think THE FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT is going to fail? Oh, Hell No! He's not doing what's right, he's doing what's necessary. Bush handed Obama an empty wallet and a trillion IOUs. What do you think he's going to do, INVENT some money?

What does him being black have to do with any of it?

he he, nothing and everything.

FAIL ?? He is failing now.

INVENT MONEY ?? If that is the same as printing money--that he's doing.

FIRST BLACK PRESIDENT ??? He can't even get that right--he only part BUT he has set back real blacks tyerribly by his on going failures.