The PRK is chock full of many stupid rules. To try and grasp the stupidity would drive you mad. Actually you do need proof of training to buy a handgun in Commiefornia. If you see someone who you know has not had firearms training and is being stupid with a weapon i.e. pointing it at someone or pointing it at themselves to demonstrate that "a loaded gun won't fire on SAFE" you are well within your rights to slap the ever loving shit out of them and chastise them for being a dumbshit.

A common fallacy that people have regarding firearms.

The .223/5.56 will not punch through a human, even with ball ammuntion. It was designed to tumble on contact with a target. There is even frangible ammunition marketed for home defense use as it shatters once it penetrates an object. it will go through 1 layer of sheetrock but not the other.

You may view it as an excuse but alot of people view it as using the most efficient tool for the job. One mans paranoia is another mans prudent planning.

But regardless of the tool and what it is used for, you still use it because it is more efficient, correct?

It takes considerable skill to fire a pistol and accurately hit a target even 25meters away. As much as you might not think so, a rifle is more accurate than a pistol. If one of my family members was in the vicinity of the criminal, I would trust a rifle over a pistol. There are risks involved in everything you do, regardless of whether or not you are shooting, driving to the store, playing a game of soccer or football etc. Proper training is key.

From Wikipedia Gun Violence

It would sound more believable if it was from something other than wikipedia.

OK, read it up, was confused by statements in this thread.

The most efficient to kill unwanted guests? Not everything is: If I don't kill him, he will kill me. A weapon with high lethal effects is not necessary, in my opinion.

More time efficient than walking, yes.
You can argue a big gun is more efficient than a small one (determent and man stopping).
A machine gun would be even more, or a XM214 Microgun, a tank, but is there a need? (the elephant again)

Do you have rooms that are 25m long? If it comes really high 10m.
Would you go get your gun, aim and shoot, while your family is threaten by a psychotic person?

You can follow the references from Wikipedia, if that helps. What are your needs for a believable reference?

What you just said is contrary to the purpose of why people have home defense weapons. To stop an attacker as quickly as possible. And to stop someone as quickly as possible, a weapon needs to have high lethal effects otherwise an attacker will be wounded and still be able to be a threat.

There is obviously a practicality issue with that. A machine gun is to clumsy to use indoors where as an M4 is alot more maneuverable and has alot more accuracy and distance than a pistol. So practicality outweighs need in those examples.

My Mosin is always at the ready, zeroed in and loaded. When I am not around it is locked up. But when I am, it is ready at a seconds notice.

What it fails to mention is:

1) Crimes thwarted by the victim being armed. It does not display the ratio of crimes averted by the victim being armed vs crimes actually commited with weapons. Alot of attacks that were stopped without shots fired don't get added into the statistics as they don't fall into the "violent crimes" category. All those statistics do is record how many violent crimes actually went through unhindered.

2) Justifiable Homicide. Again, Homicide, whether justifiable or not still falls into the "homicide" category. Until there is a distinction between the two when the statistics are collected and processed, the numbers are still largely skewed.

[QUOTE=Tread;11172 Not one of the three persons that walked in your direction has threatened you or your family. A violent potential or weapons wasn’t visible either, expect by you.
You judge them to be criminal by their looks, age and walking in your direction. You should always be aware in suspicious settings, but it’s not sure they were criminals. In the second case, if he watched you the whole time, and waited for you, he is supposable after your money.



Hmm I thought I described the situation quite well enough for a rational person to put themselves in my shoes at that time and place. And I suppose all 3 gentlemen were just approaching me for friendship and good conversation? You are very naive Tread.

It's not his faul Rachel. Maybe this pic will help you understand.:innocent:

ok now this is just my observation but i think this Thread has slightly lost the plot.

this thread obviously started out in helping people get information on getting DIFFERENT ways on self defense but all i can is that its boiled down into an argument between those inside and outside of America. look Tread. Stop trying to push your views onto people when guns have obviously worked in america for the last 200 years or so. different cultures have different rules, thats the beauty of this world. in the end you're gonna get crime anywhere. plus i don't hear you going on about other places with gun crime like thailand, etc.

At the same time Rachel and AngryPost, i know from reading the posts that guns have saved you or your loved ones time and time again yet it wouldn't hurt to acknowledge the usefulness of hand to hand. there was a story here in the UK of a cop that was almost stabbed in the neck if it weren't for his training and fast reflexes yet at the same time here people are so eager to have a gun that they've taken to modifying BB guns to fire live ammo. gun crime is everywhere. different countries deal with it in different ways and for each country it seems to be working for a while.

Bottom line. if someone asks for advice on this thread instead for stating the importance of a gun alone. put down some ideas for hand to hand as a added help. it never pays to be well prepared.

Love & Peace

Mr. Tread was asking why some use rifles and shotguns as opposed to a pistol; I was merely explaining why, albeit we did get a wee sidetracked. The importance of unarmed combat(UAC) is definetly not overlooked. When in public, I carry a blade on me but sometimes it is not practical or lawful to do so and I know various holds and strikes for when I am unarmed. There is a wooden riot baton that I keep close to my bed that I also train with. Knowing other ways of injuring or killing people is definetly a useful skill.

Ms. Rachel also stated in another thread that she is trained in Muay Thai.

hand to hand
 

I told Pixie to carry brass knuckles like I do.

Indeed it lost slightly the plot. I've problems to not voice my opinion, if getting asked. But I'm not trying to push my views on other. I want to understand, why so many get a big weapon extra for home defence. I grasped KittyKaiti's and AngryPostman's personal opinion, but in general I don't get it and would like to hear more.
Even it was enjoyable, for the threads sake I'll stop asking why they expect some kind of Jason Voorhees in their home. (Damn, did it again)


Martial Arts:
In my opinion American Kenpō Karate, German Ju-Jutsu and a bit easier (Civilian) Krav Maga are the best choices for self defence. But the most martial arts have good working defence techniques.
If you don't want to learn the full program a usual self defence course teaches essential moves, behaviour, responsibility and confidence in a short time.

Personally I would prefer Spetsnaz Combat-Sambo or Jeet Kune Do, but it's nearly impossible to get a proper training in these.

If I had the time to thoroughly learn martial arts, I would want to learn any of these 4: Muay Thai, Wrestling(Greco-Roman or Collegiate), Krav Maga or Judo.

Combat Sambo is pretty badass but I don't know anyone down here that teaches it. :(

hpothetical situation
 

Hey Tread what do you guys do over there if someone breaks into your home with the intent to rob and maybe hurt you? Fight like a Frenchman? I surrender!

now i don't know if thats an ill intent jab or not but if it were me being robbed most likely the robber would have a knife or bat or something as guns aren't legal and hard to come by. if he were coming at me i'd be able to get the knife of of him and use it against him as i've been trained to. this might not seem the most likely but tai chi helps. for a couple of years i use to learn it and learn that even the slightest movement can have big results. instead of stopping the attacker. guide him away from you by moving his body with his own momentum. this would result him in stabbing the wall with the knife and i'd beat the crap out of his because i've found out one good thing about robbers and all round thugs.

anything goes :D

I can get 3 shot groups with my 357 magnum at 30 feet away
nearly dead center, with my 03-A3 springfield a 3 shot group
at 500 yards!, without a scope mount the peephole is allways kept clear
you aim thru and she will fire thru.

Usually only call the police, cause they do it when nobody is at home, or they run away if they get spotted.
If the risk is too high, surrender is not the worst act (if you have a gun or not). Some would probably lock their self in a room and call the police. Other would chase them away, or fight them (with or without weapons). There are as much behaviours as in the US, only that guns are less common.
I don't know what I would do, the case isn't clear enough, and I never was in such a situation. I would probably call the police try to get something to identify the person (photo, car licence number, robber belongings, protect objects with fingerprints) before the person run away. If the person wants to hurt me, I would defend me in a reasonable way (this doesn't sound like a you or I death situation). If I can I would arrest the person until police is there (depending how fast, strong and what happens).


It is/was really difficult for me to not post more to your statements, but this would start a discussion that was/is not my intension.

Oooooh! Oooooh! Oooooh! Is it a Springfield Armory or Rock Island Armory 1903? Gibbs Rifle Company is making 1903A4s that look pretty damn close to the real thing, the only noticeable differences that I could see were the markings on the rifle.

My dad had a 30 40 Kraig(sic), does that mean anything?
He used it for deer hunting.

Sorry Tread
 

I'm sorry I took a good jab at you there. Hope you arent French lol Being that this thread started as self defense lets get to the heart of the matter. First and foremost is your mindset. The will to survive. By whatever means neccesary. Surrender isnt an option in my book. I'd rather go down swinging then die on my knees. If you have a choice of a weapon to defend your self with what would you choose? I'd take a bat over a stick. I'll take a firearm over the bat. I'll take a large gun over a smaller one.

The Krag-Jorgensen
 

Actually Mr. Randolph, it's "Krag", a Norwegian designed rifle. ;) It was the first American military firearm to use smokeless powder instead of a compressed black powder loading and was carried by Teddy Roosevelt when he hit San Juan Hill.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Sat...agenum%3D1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krag-J%C3%B8rgensen

It is quite similar to the .303 British round in dimension and power (but not interchangeable)

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satelli...OR+.30-40+Krag

http://gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satelli...R+.303+British

and has an unusual loading system (unusual in that it loads by means of a trapdoor and not a stripper clip like comparable Mauser or Mannlicher rifles of the time). Some purists will talk shit about the round and attributes of the rifle but until someone quantifies "dead", it is still useful for killing things like milk jugs, watermelons, large game and Spaniards. A good sturdy rifle overall.

I have a little story about security. We have a house security system. It can be turned on of with hand held remotes. One of the buttons on the remote sends a silent alarm to the Sheriff. One day I came home shortly after my wife went to the market. I walked into the house with no alarm, went upstairs to my office and checked my computer. As I was sitting there I heard a noise downstairs. As I walked out of my room, two police officers pointed their guns at me and shouted "freeze". Needless to say I froze. I was shocked and asked what was going on. They said there was an emergency alarm here. My wife had intended to set the house alarm instead she pushed the emergency silent alarm button. I had a rifle in my room, I wonder what would have happened if I had come out of the room carrying it. Needless to say ,we disabled the silent alarm.:eek:

I don't noticed a good jab, it's more that you have a wide open cover for counterattacks in your most statements. Like: your will to survive against never surrender, even it means you die for one dollar then giving it unharmed away to a predominant robber.
I stop responding to you in this thread, because I think if I start it would easily escalade. If you really want to force out my opinion to your gun views, you have to create a better fitting thread and only eventually I would post there one or two things.

stop responding?
 

Awww another Christmas present I wont be getting

Tread, Rachel. Why don't you settle this over a match of naked wrestling?

On CNN
 

Thought this was worth sharing. Much respect :respect: to them!

http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/wor...ate.granny.cnn

Talk about a kick now that is about the biggest gun that
i have fired with a big kick, and when using xx highpower loads.
my sister lives about a mile and a half from that firing range
and she can hear me shooting it.i used a 180 grain full metal jacket xx bullet
that had a big kick i am surprised the range officer let me fire that thing
i have to ask permission when firing large cal. guns.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcAgEgbIBcg

.p.s. that guy in the video looks all most like me too

I remember reading an article about Col. Rex Applegate, the author of Kill Or Get Killed, and He was talking about how he was walking down the street when two thugs tried to mug him. All he had was his cane and he whupped the shit out of them with a well placed strike to the head and groin.

Something is better than nothing.:yes:

http://closecombattraining.com/blog/?p=213 *A brief bio of Col. Applegate*

Books and other stuff
 

Here's a few of my other "toys." I also have quite an extensive library of martial arts related books. That "knife-type-thing" next to the sword is a Smith and Wesson "First Response" tool. It can be flipped open with one hand like a switchblade if you practice... I carry one in my vehicle always. It can cut through seatbelts, has a pry bar, and a spring loaded carbide tip that can shatter a windshield. I have two, and mail-ordered them from U.S. Cavalry many years ago. Get one if you don't already own one!

Akido is something I would love to study one day. I only have the one book and have practiced just a few techniques from it.

I don't know where my copy of "In the Gravest Extreme" by Massad Ayoob went--but it is recommended reading for anyone interested in self-defense.

He is legendary! He even created his own fighting knife:

http://www.gerber-tools.com/Gerber-A...ombat-5780.htm

One bad-ass dude! I'm glad he was on our side! :respect:

That thing to the bottom-right if your nightstick; is that a kubaton?

Also, I like the knuckle-knife combo.:yes::yes::yes:

Kubotan
 

Yes it is. I bought a bunch of them a while back and used to give them as Christmas presents! :cool:

Most of that stuff I bought while living here in Indiana (almost no restrictions apply) or in Michigan (Detroit "Wayne County" has tight restrictions--what's the logic? Someone can go to Oakland county and get knives and other stuff quite easily). Don't know if they can be sent to "Kalifornia"?

My understanding is that there are holds and techniques for them. My use of one would be mostly be to apply to pressure points or strike the eyes, throat, or temples. Have you ever had training with one?

The knife is a Frostwood "Undertaker" bowie. I bought two of them just in case they were ever restricted and something happened to the first one. It has a 9" blade. When we were discussing home defense weapons--I thought about it--it is nearby if I couldn't get to my 12 ga. The SIG is kept in a safe so wouldn't be much good unless I had time.

Also, that little "dagger" between the Kobotan and the sword is called a "CIA letter opener." It is made of fiberglass and nylon and can be sharpened. You can put one in a necktie or tape it to your ankle. ;)

That Don's guns I posted pictures of is a great place to get stuff like this. At least in Indiana. I am pretty sure I got the Kubotans there.

I made this dagger in high school metal shop many years ago. Imagine doing this today?
:cool:

Not in the DPRK (Democratic Peoples Republic of Kalifornia)

Nope :no::( But I would like to.

My friend has one of those except his looks like a a small version of the cruciform bayonet usually found on Mosins, SKSs and early AK's. Those things are badass. As usual, they are not found in the DPRK. :censored::censored::censored:

Right on Mr. Randolph! Have you ever gone to Jantz's website? It's http://www.jantzsupply.com/ and they have all sorts of supplies to make your own knives like knife hobby sets, handle materials, different types of barstock like stainless steel, tool steel, "Damascus" pattern welded steel, Mokume-Game pattern welded metals etc.

I think you'd like it. :yes::yes::yes:

That is very cool. Nice work. No they wouldn't let anyone get away with it today. When I was in HS metal shop as a Freshman (84-85) we made "throwing stars" out of sheet metal--if you got caught it was detention. Anyway--I think I still have mine somewhere. ;)

More fun toys
 

Here are a few more items from my collection. The big one is a Mortal Kombat "Raptor" knife made for the movie. Cool looking but not really practical (poorly balanced--awkward grip). The ones on the left are a set of 3 Gil Hibben throwing knives made famous by Steven Segal in "Under Siege." The "hatchet" is a "throwing axe." Yes it sticks... ;) The odd shaped one next to the Raptor is for "skinning." The "T shaped" one--put it in your fist and--well you get the idea... On the left is a cheap switchblade and the little guy on the right is a Gerber pocket knife bought at the local Dick's sporting goods.

And this one rates its own post...
 

The blade alone on this F:censored:er is 11 inches! It is very similar to the one used in Rambo III. I bought it as a novelty collectors piece. Not practical. Very "blade" heavy--more like a sword. One could use two hands and "slash" with it. Also not sure of its legality in other states.

well for me it would have to be any of my 7 blades i have in my room ranging from 6inches to F:censored:KING big but if i had a choice out of guns too i'd have to pick the colt .45 something about it i like dunno why

Well i have a very large 13 inch bowie knife in my apartment like the one in
the pic but that one is only 9 inches the one i have is 13 inch blade with
engraved markings on the blade and gold trim on the handle
i paid $350 for it in a knife show here a few years back.
i also have a 10 inch rambo knife also camo handle.

fight
 

It wouldnt even be a fair contest. Who you got your money on?

I also have my grandfathers H&R American double Action 5 shot 38 cal with a six inch hex barrel. Pre 1898 version. (photo of 4 inch model)
I don't think I would want to try it with modern ammo.:eek:

Now THAT'S a knife! (I've sometimes heard those called "Texas Toothpicks") :cool:

Yes. Do NOT try to run modern ammo through it! This pistol was chambered for Black Powder ammo and will create dangerous pressures when fired with smokeless powder. Unless you reload, don't go to the store and buy a box of .38 ammo for it.

If you ever take up reloading, you can build your own "flavors" of ammo. I have a loading press at home and I load 30-06 and .223. It's a fun hobby. :yes:

I would just be there to watch, not bet. hehehehe

fight
 

hmmm look at my angry face avatar

Why so serious?

Face
 

LOL A friend took this pic of me said I reminded him of Lorena Bobbit

Well don't chop my dick off!;)

Here is a video of my model 19 357 magnum revolver
but the one i have is chrome i got it in 1979 and looks brand new
to this day.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tF8lOE4Whtk

same groups i get damn!...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kg3ZWiWq8fs

i have other weapons but not in my apartment
they are locked up in a vault.

another one of my handguns are
Colt 1911 45 MKIV Series 70 chrome
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ywpezg_wb3Q

Bobbit
 

Nah I'd never do that honey. My B/F at the time said I had a crazy look in my eyes. Not in my heart.

ouch now there is a kick!
desert eagle 50 cal
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X0XJ...eature=related

That was funny!!!!:lol::lol::lol:

I'll bet she got a big ol' goose egg!


S&W .500 has more power though with better accuracy.

if you guys like sexy girls then you will love this
sexy girls with guns
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9RYBcWljiA

a blonds revenge for all those dumb blode jokes posted
on the internet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7vD2...eature=related

Girl with Benelli 12 gauge auto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Wp2F...eature=related

Answer to your questions
 

Unfortunately depending on where you live it can be very bad. I am relatively well off and live in an affluent neighborhood. Even so, burglaries and robberies are fairly common. One of the contributing factors is the drug problem. Many of these robbers are armed and could well shoot you during the robbery. There have been many cases in the United States of people who were shot or beaten or tied up by burglars invading their home. Most the cases play out the same: the couple surrenders only to be tied up and killed. We recently had a notorious unsolved serial murder case (the "BTK" killer) come to a conclusion a few years ago. I remember this case as a child. I am always amazed at how easily the killers manage to subdue their victims. Almost never were the victims armed.

A little about me. I'm a University Professor and very well educated. I am also a fairly large man and very strong--I posted a picture of me working out elsewhere on this forum. I have always played sports and excelled at football ("American Style"). I was born in Detroit, Michigan, one of the most dangerous cities in the US and started taking Karate lessons at age 6. I have a third-degree black belt. My parents were nearly killed by armed robbers when I was very young. My grandmother's house was broken into several times. Our home in Detroit was vandalized repeatedly. And my aunt and uncle were beaten and hospitalized by muggers. One of my Dad's best friends was stabbed in a Men's room during a robbery attempt. When I was 5 I was beaten up by a gang of older kids.

In my own home, I have a 12 ga shotgun nearby in case someone were to break in and try do me or my family harm. My handgun is kept locked in a safe so it would take some time to work the combination. Have I ever had to use it? No. Fortunately. There were a couple of times when I was married when my wife and I were awakened by the dog barking and I went to investigate. I took my handgun and a flashlight with me. There had been several drug related burglaries in our neighborhood and we were afraid we might be next on the list.

One simply does not know what they might be facing when things go bad. Is it one intruder or attacker? Or several? Are they bigger than me? Stronger? Are they on drugs? Are they armed? I would like to be prepared for whatever... I think a shotgun is a very effective weapon under home defense conditions--especially at close range. Could I disarm someone myself? Probably. But only at close range. I have had training in this. Could someone "overpower" me? Not likely but you never know how big or strong or high on drugs they are. Would I surrender like others have and take my chances? Most definitely NO!

Honestly, I don't go around thinking about this topic that much. I have many other things in my life and I don't live in fear. If you met me you would find that I was very laid-back and easy going. My students love me. I have a very successful career in education and am well respected. I started this thread and wrote the original post because I was outraged at the beating of one of our members. I wanted to encourage those who never had even thought about "self-defense" to consider their options. "Hate crimes" in particular piss me off--I really have zero tolerance for bullies. When I was in college I had a gay friend that had been harassed by some of the other guys in the dorm. I paid them a visit one night--my friend never had trouble again... ;)

As for the real danger from crime... There are many statistics available. Much depends on where you live and where you go. Clearly there is a very real possibility of becoming a "statistic." Others here have shared with you their stories. Nothing in life is completely safe. Statistically, I probably am in a lot more danger riding my motorcycle than I am going downtown. Consider something like this: in the mid-west United States we have a high risk of dangerous storms and tornadoes. The Weather Service issues warnings, there are sirens and shelters, and most people who live here know what to do. But you don’t live in fear of them--you are aware and prepared. Regarding crime--I would much rather be prepared than to be a victim. :cool:

I like the brunette firing the AK-74 with the Bakelite mags. :yes::turnon:

I think we should make a website that features trannies with guns. I think Miss Pixie and her shotgun would make an excellent model.

funny you should say that i tried to do a google search
yesterday afternoon but had no luck hope sombody has better luck

I'd model for that site too! But I don't know how safe it would be to play around with guns in a porn shoot...

If you can remember Col. Jeff Coopers 4 Rules of Gun Safety, you should be allright. :yes:

Hey Tread,
The first place I bought was a townhouse in a bad neighborhood, I got robbed twice, the second time the thief actally got my revolver.
I'm real non-violent, I've been in jail a couple week-ends for petty offenses, I didn't like it.
G Gordon Liddy had a radio show, he said when he was an F B I agent and his team had to go out on an assignment that was most likely going to be "up close and personal" that the agents wisked right by the machine guns for the Shotgun rack. That made sense to me.

Granny 1, Robber 0 Final score
 

Granny stops robber with a gun. :)

http://www2.nbc4i.com/cmh/news/crime...Robber/25296/#

Guns
 

Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies --in the final sense --a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. . . . It is humanity hanging from a cross of iron.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1954

What would he think of us today?:frown:

Thanks to all who answered me to get a better understanding. I hope I'm not too annoying.

That's a detailed answer. :respect:
I informed myself more about the crime in the different states compared to other countries. I was a bit surprised that I live in a county with so low homicides. And murders are done on the street, bars, or money transports. In other cases the murderer was a trusted person to the victims, friend, family, benefactor (tramping, meal, lodging), a client (prostitution), or something like this.
Maybe I don't know enough about the violent home attackers in the US, serial killers or about the addicts with money problems to see the home defence need.

I also looked up the advantages and disadvantages of shotguns, and still don't see why to buy an extra one.
A shotgun (pump-action) and the shells are usually cheaper than handguns but it's heavier and not so handy in buildings. They usually have less shells/bullets and a lower rate of fire (pump-action) than semi-automatic handguns. They are easier to use and have a better stopping power with one hit. If you have to shoot more than once the handgun is better. The spread of shot against the accurately of the handgun is not a big advantage at a room close rage. The penetration is lesser (limbs, walls).
So what is the reason not to use the gun you already have and use for self defence? If you let a shotgun out of the safe, you could also let your handgun at that place.




I meant, was there one who robbed you violent or threatening at/in your home, while you were home.

Why it makes sense to you or/and the agents?

Nope. You're not being annoying :)

Compared to a pistol, yes. But a pistol still takes considerable training to hit a target accurately even at close range.

True, but you forget that 1 shell of 000 buckshot contains 10 pellets roughly 9mm in diameter. That means 1 shell of 12 gauge 000 buck has the same capacity as 1 magazine of 9mm Parabellum. You will have more hits on target vs. rounds fired with a shotgun than a pistol.

If that were true, more troops would use a pistol for clearing rooms instead of a shotgun. In CQB, the shotgun is king. Pistols are generally used in areas where it is not practical to to have a larger weapon (i.e. concealed carry purposes, inside a vehicle etc) or is used as a way to fight your way to a more powerful weapon.

Handguns take considerable amount training to hit something accurately compared to a shotgun or rifle. Pistols have less stopping power unless you are comparing the ammo to birdshot which does not penetrate deep and has a large spread. The spread of the shot can be changed by the amount of choke the shotgun has; the tighter the choke, the tighter your spread will be. At longer distances even with the spread, more pellets of buck will hit a target vs. pistol rounds. If I remember correctly (which I don't) the spread after 20 ft. begins to open up 1 inch every 6ft-10ft depending on the load and choke.

If you are firing slugs from a shotgun, they will reach out and touch someone accurately at 100+ meters(Accuracy tapers off at around 125-150 meters.) which is alot greater than the pistols 25-50 meter range.

The penetration of the ammo depends on the loading. #4, #1, 0, 00, and 000 buckshot penetrates deeper than birdshot (hence why birdshot is used for hunting birds and buckshot is used for hunting deer.)

Again, it all depends on operator preference. Someone may not like the size of a shotgun and choose a pistol, another person may not hit accurately with a pistol but can hit better with a shotgun or a carbine. It all depends on what you are comfortable with. If you are comfortable with a pistol, get a pistol. If you are comfortable with a shotgun, get a shotgun and so on and so forth.

:):respect:

slug guns
 

[QUOTE=TheAngryPostman








If you are firing slugs from a shotgun, they will reach out and touch someone accurately at 100+ meters(Accuracy tapers off at around 125-150 meters.) which is alot greater than the pistols 25-50 meter range.



Dont stick your head up at 200 yards with the newest sabot slug loads. 3 inch groups are possible with full rifled barreled slug guns like my Winchester 1300 12 Ga. shown here. 1800FPS loads generating over 3000 pounds feet of muzzle energy rival most high powered rifles. And you are starting out with a .50 to .74 caliber 437 grain bullet.

Ooooooooh! What ammo do you shoot? Is the barrel rifled or are the slugs rifled?:drool:

Have you ever shot the Auto 5?

shotguns
 

However for sheer intimidation factor Nothing beats TWO .74 caliber barrels!

Ooooooooooh! :drool:

slugs and such
 

I've tried several diferent brands of slugs through the gun. (Full rifled barrel). Hornady SSTs seem to group the tightest. I've gotten clover leafed 3 shot 1 inch groups at 100 yards. If my younger son is going to use it, I resight with Remington reduced recoil slugs (1300FPS). Depends on where they want to sit. If using one of my buckshot throwers I load with Winchester copper plated 00. I prefer the 3 inch shells for the extra 3 pellets and better grouping( all pellets on a paper plate at 50 yards ). I've shot my friends Browning auto 5 I dont really care for autos I have 2 870s the Win 1300 pump and the Spanish 12 Ga side by side. I hate over and unders.

That's awesome! Isn't the SST loads the frangible stuff?

Does your side-by-side ever make you want to strap a chainsaw to your hand and fight demon hordes?

loads giggles
 

SSTs are a saboted .50 cal slug The double barrel is very light and balanced. Double trigger can fire either barrel first so you can have a choice of a first shot load. 2 quick shots. If I'm hunting South Jersey it's much brushier I bring the short double. If the terrain is more open I opt for the slug gun.

Cool! :p:respect:

A thing about 'Self Defence'

Guns... knives...

Are you REALLY going to blow his brains out?

Stab him in the guts?

AVOIDING is the best.

Don't get in fights in the first place.

There is no shame in running away.

running
 

Run run run away live to run another day? Run where? Away from home? Running may be an option if you are a track star. If not...

You fail to notice such things as home invasions where they have brought the fight to you. I pretty much guarantee you that anyone who has a CCW or home defense weapon is not going out picking fights.

I am licensed to carry a concealed firearm and have a few different guns to carry depending on what I will be doing or how I'm dressed. I normally carry a 9mm but also have a snub nosed .38 and a smaller .380 auto.

For the home, I am fully prepared. I have a 12 gauge shotgun, an AR-15 and an AK-47. If someone ever breaches the security of my home at night with the intent to cause harm, that will be the last mistake they ever make.

For those in this thread talking about backing away or getting out of a situation, sure, that is the best way to do it if at all possible but you will not always be able to do so. I have a 9 year old daughter to protect and I will do so at any cost...and yes, I am fully prepared (mentally and physically) to shoot someone if I have to in order to protect myself or my little girl. It's not something I want to do but I know it's possible that there may not be a choice.

Often I find myself 'LOOKING FOR TROUBLE'.

Instead of looking for safe way out, I look for trouble.

But I shouldn't do that. Instead, I should tell myself,

It's OK to just back off. Let it go.

Fight or Flight ?
 

The real enemy is FEAR. This causes us to over-react, to go weak at the knees, become paralysed with indecision, to crap ourselves etc. when faced with what we perceive as a threatening situation. The legal position on using force as a response varies considerably from country to country, and it is not always possible to argue successfully that one's own violent response was either appropriate or reasonable. With such a possibility it is essential to control the Fight or Flight reaction to be able to respond cooly and objectively. As has already been pointed out, Walking Away from aggression is best if it can be achieved without provoking further aggression and you're not already placed in a no-place-to-turn position.

Self Control is extremely difficult in situations of extreme danger. To reach this level of Zen a number of Martial Arts do offer a way. It seems a contradition in terms for a Martial Art to claim to be primarily defensive, but this is indeed the case with one or two. Classical Aikido is a case in point where an Advanced Practitioner would consider it a retrograde step to use more force than was necessary to achieve neutalisation of an adversary. Almost every class I have ever attended ( and I have lost count of how many ) every Instructor has always pointed out that Walking Away is the hardest thing that anyone can do, even for the most advanced practitioner.
And in situations that you cannot avoid ? The system of training allows you to remain calm and respond / think swiftly and to make the right choice, even if it has to be a violent one ( for ' violent ' read also ' passive ' ) A couple of Karate schools promote similar ideas.

And how long does it take ? Basic competency 2 to 3 years. Near total self-confidence a lot longer.

Add to this a course or two on Accepting and Managing Directed Anger, and you will feel real good about yourself, and equally aware that you don't know it all !

Meantime, other precautions are common sense. Minimum money and no credit cards in wallet, avoidance of dark places etc. The list goes on.

I also rely on an extensive a vile collection of insults, aggression and smarm. And it is surprising how effective a touch of ' Black Humour ' can be.

I agree. Fear stalks our streets in places unsavoury, so by all means be prepared.

:cool:

For all of us Monty Python fans..
 

He bravely ran away He bravely ran away. When danger reared it's ugly head he turned his tail and bravely fled Brave, brave Sir Robin

Bold and Bantery Band of Brits
 

Brits now seem noted for their cynicism, so indeed the popularity of that intrepid band of burlesque Brits Monty Python. But how does a cynic respond to very-real threat ? Not very commendably or bravely, I would imagine. But bravery comes in various guises, which was perhaps the theme behind my earlier post. It takes a peculiar sort of bravery to walk away from a threat ( if indeed any opening is available ), when the instinct is to kick, punch, stab or shoot one's way out of trouble.

That said, this thread seems to be mainly about Gun enthusiasts promoting the benefits and / or enjoyment of using guns. The reality is that complete reliance upon only one such a set of skills, instaed of having a menu of skills upon which to draw, might offer security only from an extreme emergency situation, not from the problems which might develop from precipitous action.
I feel that concentrating exclusively on firearms solutions is rather too far removed from the thread originator's first post.

Meantime I will withdraw and hide trembling in my dojo, leaving my rusting rifle at home !

Enjoy the club.

Question
 

Is it better to be a live coward or dead hero? :yes::no::frown:

Being a hero makes fools of us all
 

Are those the only permissible combinations ? Dead Coward seems quite likely too - how likely, depends on how resourceful. Live Hero would by definition be pretty resourceful. It would mean he beat the odds and got accolades for it too. It all depends on how you choose to stack the deck !

:respect:

This is my backup weapon should my rifle poop out on me; 3 feet of hard wood in the form of a riot baton. AKA: Hippie shampoo (works best when applied to head)

Amen.

I think you know what you're talking about. :)

Strut yore stuff
 

This seems to be a very macho thread, but I suppose it's to be expected with all you testosterone-loaded guys doing a centre-stage. I think it's all about a state of mind. Like sexual assault, the weakest and seeming-weakest are most likely to be the first to be attacked. This doesn't mean that I should walk around with a bowie knife strapped to my hip. It means that if my body-language is confident and self-assured, a would-be assailant is more likely to move on and pick on someone else. This does not mean I do not carry a surprise with me in case of being cornered. I certainly will if I go into parts of a city which I do not know very well. But I usually check carefully so as not to drift into danger unprepared. So far I've only run into trouble once, and I think he was more scared than I was !

i doubt i could fit one of these in my apartment
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=88xdRq2QczM

I remember hearing about how a British and a french sub that had both gone quiet had collided with each other. :lol:

I feel pretty chipper after this weekend. I had range qualification and I scored a 33 out of 40 targets hit. I know I could have done alot better but I am pretty content with my score overall. :)

I don't think the shotgun is king in CQB. It depends on the situation. I think submachine guns are more flexible and more often used by special units in CQB. But that has not much to do with home defence.

If you miss one time, 10 pellets miss, or 10 pellets can't focus on more than one target. There is still a capacity advantage. 1 buckshot has not the same energy than a magazine 9mm.
It can't be much more difficult to hit a human sized target with a pistol than a shotgun at max. Room distances.
In a defence situation you don't know how much attack, for a quick reaction at a close combat I see more advantages for a pistol than a shotgun, plus it can be carried for self defence if it is allowed (I still think a gun is not a good solution).

My question still is why some have a gun, and buy a shotgun or rifle extra for home defence (not collecting or sport).

More power. Which would you rather have to defend yourself? A 1/4" wooden dowel or a Louisville Slugger?

It all depends on the operator.

This is correct. Situational awareness can help you avoid alot of problems before you even get into them. As the Russian proverb goes,"The bear who spots the trap cannot be caught".

The mind is the most dangerous weapon; everything else is just a tool, an extension of your body.

Five Principles
 

AngryPostman is right about "situational awareness." If we are caught off-guard we may have lost the fight before it even begins. The following five principles come from the Defend University website. While taken specifically from their "rape prevention" course--I think it is sound advice for anyone.

1. Stay aware of people in your surroundings. Not surprisingly, criminals exhibit predatory behavior in preparing to attack. They will try to pick a casual location to look for their prey. They will look at their intended victim far more and for longer periods of time than social norms. They will move when the prey moves. They will stop and look around for witnesses. They will often make several passes by the prey in a sort of 'dry run', seeing if the victim will react or to get a sense of how the attack might work. Pay attention! Who is looking at you? Has the same person or car passed by you twice? Does someone appear to be moving with you?

2. Stay with people, go to people. Do not ever let yourself be taken somewhere. Cops call it the "secondary crime scene" and most of the time it will be where your worst nightmare resides. If you are approached in a public place do not get in a vehicle with him. Do not walk around the building to the alley -- STAY where others can see you. His worst fear is the fear of getting caught, so you should drop to the ground if you need to in order to prevent him from carrying you away. On the other hand, if you are in your house or another location that is private, you need to GO to people. His worst fear is the fear of getting caught -- run out the door to a neighbor’s. Crawl out a window onto the roof. Drive your car up to a diner or convenience store. Go where there are lights and others.

3. Keep a barrier between you and the bad guy. Use a barrier to block him or use distance to gain time. Keep your doors locked. Stay in your car. Force him to get through a barrier before he can get to you. Use a barrier of pepper spray. The more difficult you make it, the more time it takes him and that means he might be discovered.

4. Attract attention. The first thing he will say to you is "don't scream or I'll kill you". He's telling you exactly what will ruin his plan. Go ahead, ruin his plan -- create a disturbance, scream, throw things, blow the horn. If you think you should yell "fire" go right ahead. You can't count on others coming to your aid, but you want to appeal to his fear of getting caught and make him think that someone could hear you and be coming.

5. Use your strongest weapons against his weakest targets. His weakest targets are those that are most valuable, yet ironically, cannot be entirely strengthened. His eyes, throat, groin and knees are your primary targets. Your secondary targets are his face and his abdomen. Strong weapons that you can employ are your kicks using the bottom of your feet, your elbows, hammerfists and palm heel strikes.

Thats a very useful piece of advice. Thanks aw9:respect:

If weapons were in quick reach I would use the bat, because of the better blocking properties and the longer reach. If I know that I'll have to defend, I maybe have enough time to avoid the situation, or it is too late to arm myself.
In serious situations I never needed more than joint levers or playing cool/strong after the first hit against me and they stopped. I have a big violence inhibition threshold; I don't want to harm someone more than necessary (no one ever managed it to really freak me out).

More powerful weapons are more difficult to control in intensity. A kill happens faster with a baseball bat than with fists, or it happens faster with a shotgun than a pistol if you really have to use it.

[QUOTE= A kill happens faster with a baseball bat than with fists, or it happens faster with a shotgun than a pistol if you really have to use it.[/QUOTE]

Isnt that the whole idea? When you have to resort to the use of deadly force you shoot to kill not to wound.

This seemed like it would fit in this thread.