This all started with your post that read "taxes don't count as payment" in reference to my post about undocumented workers paying taxes. "Goods and services" had nothing to do with it. Go back and read the initial post I responded to of yours, and the subsequent posts, and perhaps take a stab at telling me what the fuck you're talking about.

I know of at least two people who have changed their minds about several things as a result of the discussion in this thread. I am not at liberty to say who they are, but perhaps they will see this and post.

And Jen, your posts have me seriously rethinking which NHL team to root for. ;)

While we're talking about "fair taxes" and giving grief to the poor who don't have an income tax liability...It looks like some millionaires don't pay any income tax either.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0...ec1_lnk2|83802

7/30/11
8/6/11
And Washington is now acting surprised. Idiots.

The U.S. Department of the Treasury and many in Congress are disputing S&P's math, a fact that should be included with any statement about what S&P has done. Further, S&P -- in taking this decision -- calls attention as much to the political process as to anything specifically financial. In other words, it is a reasonable assumption that had the Tea Partiers not manufactured a debt ceiling "crisis" for political purposes, out of thin air, there would have been no such action.

Notably, neither Fitch nor Moody's, the other two main credit ratings agencies (Moody's being generally regarded as the most important), have downgraded their ratings. Both continue to maintain the AAA rating for the United States after this week's debt deal, although Moody's lowered its outlook on U.S. debt to "negative."

The $1 billion extra in interest it may now cost the United States to borrow money that it MUST borrow to pay for spending already approved by Congress -- including by Republicans -- is $1 billion that could have been spent on making life better for Americans. Instead, it will go to banks and other lending institutions. So, the Tea Partiers get the best of both worlds, from their perspective: they held the government hostage to a phony debt ceiling crisis that resulted in some cuts they wanted, and they get more money to their real, significant backers. In other words, more money for the wealthiest bankers and others who control the flow of capital.

There are a great many more reasons for the financial mess that your country has caused to the rest of world than what S&P or Moody's had done or not done. One can start with social engineering and end with financial greed as the complete range of reasons.

S&P is being completely irresponsible with this rating. It will just make the financial situation worse.
Like it or not, the economy is a "faith based system". If the public feel confident the economy is doing OK, they are willing to invest in it and companies are willing to expand, creating jobs. Endless "bad" news creats a poisoness atmosphere that pervades the entire economy.
It makes one wonder who runs S&P, are they part of the group determined to make the economy look terrible before the next election in order to get Obama out of office?

The situation would probably be better if you had a president with some backbone and principles. You don't need a leader who sways in the wind like a reed in a hurricane and who doesn't really have a vision of what your country should be and do.

The $2 trillion error not withstanding, S&P noted that we did not make the $4 trillion in cuts that they were looking for, and that much of the cuts we did plan on making were to come years from now under different presidents and different congresses. They have understandably lost faith that our idiots in washington can get things done and carry it out. When the president & congress promises cuts over 6 years from now, does anyone seriously thing they will happen?

Error or not, after August 2nd the dow dropped like 700 pts. People knew this was coming.

It's becoming increasingly apparent that Obama is primarily interested in getting reelected rather than facing up to the right and their financial supporters. The devastation started by Ronald Reagan continues. Reagan seduced the nation with his friendly smooth talking style. Even now he is still considered a hero. Thirty years ago a man could support his family with a single job, buy a house and a car to get to work. His kids could get a college education for little cost. Public education was the best in the world.
When Reagan fired the airline controllers and nobody came to their support including other unions, the right wing was amazed and knew then that they could continue to screw the middle class by systematically transferring wealth to the wealthy.

I guess S&P should be calling the shots for the U.S. economy, rather than the real working people who pay real taxes. Of course, the chance that Republocrats actually represent real taxpayers as opposed to the financial barons of whom the S&P leadership is part is, of course, a fiction.

Tracy Coxx, why don't we just let S&P run the country directly? Wouldn't it cut out all the political shenanigans in Washington and make people who think like you happy?

Randolph, you are getting close to the truth. If you can just realize that this is not about Obama, per se, but about the two parties that are controlled by big business and the wealthy. They disagree only in how to screw us. The Democrats want to do it on behalf of their benefactors somewhat benignly, recognizing that pushing too hard causes social turmoil. The Republicans are more honest in coming right out and telling people whose interests they represent. The fact that anyone, anyone, who works for a living (as opposed to those who live off the exploitation in our system) supports the latter is beyond me, when it is so obvious that they represent those who would exploit them even more. The fact that anyone who works for a living supports the former is a reflection of how well the Democrats have convinced people, falsely, that they are the party of the working class.

Teabagging Repbulicans In Seeps Clothing Or The Fascist Right Take Your Pick
 

Gee wasn't TARP a Bush plan ? didn't Reagan spend shitloads of money while being in a peacetime economy ? just before 911 Ronald Dumbsfeld I mean Donald Rumsfeld annomced the two that right two TRILLION was missing from the PENTAGON BUDGET ???? Believe me the Republicans are the biggest spenders an could give a shit about you or I we could have had a NADER but we got a SELECTION INSTEAD OF A ELECTION IN 2000 . CASE CLOSED.

It's not just in your country. It seems that politicians everywhere are more interested in ganining and retaining power rather than looking after their respective countries.

We have to give the politicians and their corporate masters credit for being masters of deception. The Tea Party people have legitimate grassroots concerns about the massive debt and the direction of the country. This honest patriotic concern is being manipulated and distorted to create a poisoness paranoid atmosphere. Obama is being characterized as an evil power mad socialist bent on destroying the country. Social programs are evil, energy saving light bulbs are evil, family planning is evil. The Kock Bros, the Heritage Foundation and the other conservative "think" tanks that are supported by wealthy corporate interests feed the Tea Party with this irrational crap. The shocking thing is that a lot of people buy it and as demonstrated in Washington last week, it is working. Obama and Congress caved big time.
Certainly the debt is of concern but of greater concern is the economy. The stimulus saved the banks and big business but it is the thousands of small businesses in this country that provide the jobs that are so desperately needed yet they are getting little help from Washingtom.

She looks like she wants to suck my soul through her eyes. Whilst she cuts funding for education. Those wily teachers and their gold plated pensions...

H & C
 

When does this become Obama's economic record?
You can keep the Change and Hope went south today.

The Repubs. and their basement buddies are doing everything possible to get Ayn Rand to be the next president. If the American public doesn't wake up, we can look forward to increased racism, persecution of homosexuals and transsexuals, the destruction of Social Security and Medicare and the establishment of a national religion.
Taliban sharia here we come.

Looks like a lot of Republicans are becoming independent. I suspect moderate Republicans are being put of by all the radical super conservatives yapping away on the media.

looks like everyone must still be hung over from Rick Perry throwing his ten gallon hat of GOP BS in to the ring
I can see why a lot of the GOP love this guy for one he makes W look like a five beta cappa
oh and this champion of the common man after leaving the air force he returned to his daddy's cotton farm then entered poltics a man who never worked a day in his life says he can create jobs
Most of the jobs he created were thanks to the stim package which he is bitching about and the rest are min wage jobs with no bennies
WHOOO-HOOO another champion of the working man from Texas
I believe we already seen this picture before
And this one is worse then the first
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

For sure, in college he was a "C" student specializing in "Fs" and "Ds". His claim to fame in college? He was a yell leader!
He doesn't believe in evolution or global warming. The debates between Bachmen and Perry should be quite entertaining.

Been reading other forums of R's that have an unfavorable take on Perry.
He is everything that those supporting conservative traits would oppose.

With close to a dozen in the pack, I don't see a leader yet.
Of all , I see Gingritch as capable but still very un-electable.

Oh no, please not Newt! He can't even hold together his campaign team! :rolleyes:

Rumor has it the Obama is not going to run and Hillary if going to take over.
That should get the Repubs. stirred up. :yes:

A Rick Perry quote that requires no comment:

"I think in America from time to time we have to go through some difficult times ? and I think we?re going through those difficult economic times for a purpose, to bring us back to those Biblical principles of you know, you don?t spend all the money. You work hard for those six years and you put up that seventh year in the warehouse to take you through the hard times. And not spending all of our money. Not asking for Pharaoh to give everything to everybody and to take care of folks because at the end of the day, it?s slavery." (May 5, 2011, on the James Robison TV show "Life Today")

The governor of Texas! It's Howdy Dudy time. :blush:

I stated a few years ago that Hillary should have been the Democratic candidate in the last US presidential election. She's got skill, knowledge, and backbone.

He is a slightly less nerve racking Republican candidate for President as compared to the few others. But any President that uses religion to interfere with his duties as a leader in a secular nation is a scary person when in power.

I also heard that rumor on a political forum. :rolleyes:

(not typed in Magenta at the request of dauls )

And that is why he doesn't have a snowballs chance in hell of making it out of the primaries, the hardcore GOP voters want a hardcore nut job like Perry or Bachman
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

Not going to happen, if this was true i'd be working inher campaign HQ here in Jersey like i did in 08 :yes:

The Dems and indies will bitch about Obama caving in and always letting the GOP get there way but in the end they'll revote him back in office
why you ask, you look at who his replacement will be Perry or Bachman or Rom not much of a choice is it?
of course i do hear that some hardliners want to dig up the corspe of Ronald and run him for a third term
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

A leftist version of this could probably be said about Hillary for prez in '08.

At least the corpse of Ron would have more backbone than your current president.

"Hardliners"? I believe there are those in the Republican Party who would like to do as you say, but what are today "hardliners" in that party would be confronted with a choice they don't want to make: keep using Reagan as the touchstone of conservatism (in the way Sarah Palin does, nearly drooling at the mention of his name), or acknowledge that Reagan -- who, for instance, appealed quite eloquently for an increase in the debt ceiling (you can find the quote in an earlier post of mine) -- would not pass muster in the Tea Party world.

This is true... :lol: :respect:

This is a quote from Tickerspy regarding Warren Buffets investment in Bank of America.

I guess that's why he is so rich. He is very smart!

While the GOP wannabe Presidents are doing a Mexican hat dance about zero job for Aug and after they finished high fiven each other they started running there mouth and if you listen you will find one pattron to there load of crap
They all claim they will create jobs
How will they do this feet you ask?
For the most part they are not telling but what they do tell is the same old GOP BS about cutting taxes :lol:
this BS has been in affect since 2001 and is still going
So if cutting taxes creates jobs where the :censored: are the jobs
in fact in 2010 the GOP ran for the house claiming they will make jobs there number one duty so to the GOP controled house i ask where are the jobs?
The GOP BS about cutting taxes has never worked and never will
And before Tracy chimes in here's a fact for her to chew on when there belove W was in the white house we were in a neg 2000 jobs a month in the hole
The GOP answer is keep the Bush failed policies active and trople down on a loosing hand of failed policies which got us in to this mess to start with
and remember they cry :coupling: the poor
:eek: Jerseygirl Jen

Since Republicans are so for low taxes, why are they not in favor of extending the 2% payroll tax cut that expires at the end of the year? Is it because they don't care if middle class tax rates increase so long as the wealthy don't have to pay more? Could it have anything to do with not wanting to help the economy so as to decrease Obama's chance of reelection?

In February 2009, after signing the stimulus bill, Obama pledged to cut the deficit to half by the end of his first term in office. I'd like to see it gone of course, but it's still going to be impressive to see him get the deficit down to $530 billion next fiscal year. Go for it Obama... only $770 billion left to go!

A stupid pledge to have made, since it would require the assent of the very people you support ... and they won't do it, either. But (broken record time) you already know that, Tracy Coxx.

I find the thing most disturbing about the GOP debate last night was that no one challenged Perry on his outrageous statements about social security. He is flat out wrong about social security. It is fully funded well into the future. Working young people today who are contributing to social security will get a retirement of about $35,000 per year at time of retirement.
Perry's comments are just another example of the rhetorical bullshit emanating from the far right.

I think that's more debatable than the science that Perry completely blasts. If you add in comments he's made elsewhere it's pretty clear he has no respect for any field of science and I find that rather disturbing.

It's amazing that he brags about getting high tech companies to come to Texas while he dismisses all the scientific evidence for evolution and climate change.

Yeah, he's also a big supporter of manned space exploration, which I was just as surprised about as I was with Bush, the other anti-science guy.

I find it mystifying that these bible thumping "religious" types can deny and reject some science and embrace other aspects of scientific endeavor. I suspect a lot of it is cynical pandering to a religious base in order to gain political power. That certainly appeared to be the case with Bush.
With Bachman and Palin and some of the others they seem to really believe in the literal bible. How they reconcile that with reality is a mystery.
Jimmy Carter is a Baptist, a moderate one however and he did not try to impose his religious beliefs onto the American public as President. Some of the current candidates want to impose their conservative beliefs on the American public. This is a very bad trend. The founding fathers were well aware of the deleterious effects of blending religion into government. They carefully crafted the Constitution to keep religion out of the government.

Oh I believe Bush (and Perry) are more religious than they even allow people to see. I think Bush's support of manned space exploration was for other than scientific reasons. Like the spanish - for god, gold and glory.

After talking with people like them, they seem to think reality is a deception and that you must remain steadfast and keep your eye on what the bible tells you :innocent: I tell them nature is the literal word of god, not the bible.

I agree.

I think God may be getting fed up with all this "support" business.
I think Bush also claimed God was on his side.

"Texas governor Rick Perry said God is calling on him to run for President. But Michele Bachmann said that god is calling on her to run for President. You know, if God is that indecisive, he's probably for Mitt Romney." ?Jay Leno :lol:

These are not good times for Obama. His approval ratings are low, unemployment rates continue to rise, his administration is in the hot seat for pushing to loan stimulus money to Solyndra which apparently was known at the time to be a very risky loan. How many more times has this happened? Even some senate democrats are not supporting Obama's jobs bill. Now Obama tells (pleads to?) a crowd

Sounds pretty desperate.