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  #1  
Old 07-10-2008
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Default Transsexuals in Iran

Hi there.
A few weeks ago there was a TV program about transsexuals in Iran. It was a real eyeopener and very interesting .
Did anyone else see this?
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Old 07-10-2008
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Originally Posted by ShemaleFan_UK View Post
Hi there.
A few weeks ago there was a TV program about transsexuals in Iran. It was a real eyeopener and very interesting .
Did anyone else see this?
Nope - is it available online somewhere? I'd think that being a trans-woman in Iran or any other hard-core, mentally and spiritually screwed-up religious society is no fun at all. Well, being any gender there must be the closest to being placed in hell on earth... in spite of their (the clerical leadership's, of course) self-proclaimed closeness to God and Heaven... those hypocritical, evil bastards.

Or am I getting ahead of myself...???
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Old 07-11-2008
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Default Transsexuals in Iran

Quote:
Nope - is it available online somewhere? I'd think that being a trans-woman in Iran or any other hard-core, mentally and spiritually screwed-up religious society is no fun at all. Well, being any gender there must be the closest to being placed in hell on earth... in spite of their (the clerical leadership's, of course) self-proclaimed closeness to God and Heaven... those hypocritical, evil bastards.

Or am I getting ahead of myself...???
Given what we are told about things in Iran, your comments are pretty much what we would expect - I certainly thought as you do as I sat down to watch the programme. However, as I said, the film was a real eyeopener.

The fact of the matter is that transsexuals appear to be getting a decent deal there, with full sympathetic support up to and including SRS and, if I remember correctly, beyond as well.

I don't know whether or not they can have their birth certificates changed and get married like they can here in the UK.

The surprising thing is that, in this case, Iran's religious dogma is actually working in their favour since, although the Koran forbids and condemns homosexuality, it says nothing about transsexualism, so that makes it acceptable in their eyes.

As to whether or not this film is available online, I honestly can't say. The film appeared on satellite TV here in the UK about a couple of months ago.
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Old 07-11-2008
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well. its never quite so simple, but yea, their religious clerics interpret the quranic verses saying a man may cut off any deformity, to include all kinds of surgery including srs. As the logic goes that if someone is woman and had the body of a man, that is a deformity, so they may have surgery to give them a body of a woman. (These guys really know how to stretch a point)

Of course, there are still quite a lot of problems, as you can imagine with thier strict rules about what men and women can do and interaction between men and women, so at the point of ambiguity, this causes problems and of course, moving from being male (with more right) to female (with less rights) causes problems.

Anyway it's interesting.

Iran really is a fucked up country, but not in the simple way most people imagine, it's fucked up in far more bizzare and interesting ways.


Have any of you guys seen persopolis? or read the graphic novel?
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Old 07-12-2008
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One issue with TSs in Iran is that SRS is provided as an option for men convicted of homosexuality to avoid prison and/or death pnealty. So men who identify as male opt for surgery to avoid harsh prison conditions and end up being in essence men trapped in a woman's body - not a position I'd wish on anyone.

While the official stance is to provide SRS and (i think HRT) with gov't assistance, there isn't really any social education for or about transsexuality.

As far as legal stuff.. yes they can change documentation to reflect their target gender and can get married. They become women with all that implies in a fundimentalist Islamic society.
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Old 07-12-2008
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Default Ts in Islam

I dont know much about Koran. But if you look closely at Muslim History... their invasions and rules in different periods, throughout the world, you will notice that they have a very long practice of castrating men and using them for guarding the Harem.
For five centuries they have castrated men (into Eunuchs) for similar purposes. These men / semi-ts have created their own societies and culture... as an unspoken part of the muslim culture. And men and women have had relations with them. So, if you look at the line of evolution, getting SRS in modern times in a hardcore Islamic country is no surprise at all!
As SS-Anna has just said, these people have mastered the art of stretching things and making them meet with their Holy codes . Koran forbids drinking wine on earth. Rich orthodox muslims take flights and drink on the air .
Ok, now take a look at the drivers licence below and tell me if you can identify the driver! Its not a fake photo! Its Original!
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Old 07-13-2008
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Default Transsexuals

I think you are correct, sesame. I knew when I was watching it that there had to be a catch somewhere, although I couldn't see it at the
time. My first thoughts were that they would frown on any man who wanted to demean himself by becoming a woman.

Quote:
Ok, now take a look at the drivers licence below and tell me if you can identify the driver! Its not a fake photo! Its Original!
Pretty scary! Is it a man or a woman. Perhaps its a terrorist trying to avoid capture, who knows. That can lead to a complete separate topic which is probably best discussed in private.

Now, on a lighter note,
Quote:
Koran forbids drinking wine on earth. Rich orthodox muslims take flights and drink on the air .
I am reminded of the story of the moslem gentleman who was drinking a glass of whisky and when asked about it replied, "the prophet in his wisdom has forbidden wine to the faithful, but whisky isn't wine"

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Old 07-13-2008
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Default Be moderate, Be happy

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Originally Posted by ShemaleFan_UK
I am reminded of the story of the moslem gentleman who was drinking a glass of whisky and when asked about it replied, "the prophet in his wisdom has forbidden wine to the faithful, but whisky isn't wine"
Thats a good one.

As for the nice moderate muslims who are members of this forum, I ask your forgiveness. I was only making fun of the tricks people play to find loopholes in Koran to enjoy what is forbidden. These are not lies altogather. It is also true that the enforcers of Islam are too harsh in their effort. Do you think that its fair enough for a religion to take away the most basic rights from it's followers?

1) Drawing any living creature or engraving it is forbidden!
2) Singing is forbidden
3) Drinking is forbidden
4) Men can take multiple wives and maintain huge family!
( it is simply a ploy to increase Muslim population)
5) A husband can divorce a wife by just saying Talak thrice in front of witnesses!!! (can it be fair in any count?)
6) Basically Islam is a militant religion... no wonder the left wing islamics issue fatwas to kill as many infidels as possible and be great in the eyes of Allah!
(Why is it that most terrorists of the world are muslim?)
7) Muslims are so intolerant of criticism!!!
(anything against them and there is riot and bloodshed)

Persecute me if any of the above-said is untrue!
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Old 07-13-2008
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Hear hear!

One thing that does bother me, and this applies just as much to Christians and others as it does to Moslems, is that they insist in putting their religious beliefs and dogmas above all else. In the UK, Moslems and Christians want their religious beliefs to enable them to ignore any laws which they see as offensive. When will these people realise that the UK, in common with most other countries is a secular society, and rekligious beliefs cannot be permitted to come before the laws of the land?

Regarding the drink theme, this is a true story....
At one time I worked as a manager in the civil service and one of my staff was from Afghanistan, but of Pakistani origin. One lunchtime some of us went out to the local pub for a drink, and I noticed that he was knocking back the beer good style.
"I thought good moslems didn't drink," I said.
"Yes," he replied, "but I'm not a good moslem"

Just goes to show that some of them do have a sense of humour.
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Old 07-13-2008
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Lightbulb Good apples

I have also seen a few moderate muslims.
They are really good people, well educated, tolerant and having much patience. The forbearance they exercise is not a weakness, but a sign of power. They dont jump for your throat on a single word of positive criticism.
I think all great scholars, artists, singers, dancers belonging to Islam fall in the moderate class. People who have cleared the ambiguity of the rigid clasps of Koranic clauses have attained peace.
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Old 07-13-2008
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To be fair, moslems have contributed a great deal to human society, especially in the fields of Science (Astronomy, for example) and Mathematics. After all, our western numeric system is Arabic.

Credit where credit's due.
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Old 07-13-2008
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Default Contributions of Islam

I am a fan of Sufi Muslim Ghazals.
They are very wise and deep.
Songs & poetry written by Sufi mystics:
1) Amir Khusroo
2) Omar Khayyam
3) Mirza Ghaleb


I like Islamic calligraphy too. Actually their great talent in calligraphy originated, as their artists were forbidden the right to draw or engrave living creatures. So the aesthetic minded people gave vent to their urges in Calligraphy.

The same reason goes for their development of amazing patterns.

Ah, I like belly dancers! :D
This danceform is full of sensual and curvy movements!

I agree with you on Astronomy. They were people of the desert.
Sand dunes all around, with no landmarks to find the way. So Astronomy came to their aid. For astronomical calculations, mathematics is necessary. Therefore, I can safey say that, necessity is the mother of invention.:D
I have seen ancient Persian (Iranic) manuscripts dedicated to astronomy.

Also their fierce zeal of exploration and fighting wars is quite spectacular. The concept of fighting on horseback comes from them. Their skill with swords and knives is fine too.

Oh, the beautiful & aesthetic language of Urdu is also another Islamic contribution. It has been the vehicle of numerous poetic thoughts. Though Urdu is a concoction of Arabic, Persian, English, Portuguese and Sanskrit.
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Default Zero

0====1====2====3====4====5====6====7====8====9==:D

Although I question about the numerical or Decimal system being of Arabic source. The concept of Zero came from Kanad the proponent of Vaishesic philosophy in India. Plus the decimal system was already there in vedic maths. I am a student of Philosophy, so trust me on this.
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Old 07-13-2008
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0====1====2====3====4====5====6====7====8====9==:D

Although I question about the numerical or Decimal system being of Arabic source. The concept of Zero came from Kanad the proponent of Vaishesic philosophy in India. Plus the decimal system was already there in vedic maths. I am a student of Philosophy, so trust me on this.
I remember watching a documentary on the number 0. The documentary also mentioned that the origin of 0 was in India. I also seem to remember that although we call our numerals 'Arabic numeral' the Arabic numeral originated in India.
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Default Zero

Without zero there is no decimal system. So Decimal system also came from India. Even to this day Vedic maths is popular in parts of Bangalore (Southern India). They solve huge equations within seconds! Have you ever heard of Srinivasa Ramanujam the Indian mathematician who gave the most accurate value of pi? He was also from S. India.

"As sands that lie as individual grains, make up the whole beach, so does Anu, tiny indivisible particles make up all matter." - Kanad (describing the existence of Atoms in ancient times.)

As for Algebra, the basic principles originated in Persia. Al Zabre, yes, thats what they called it.

The Phoenician sailors and merchants connected the ancient world on water and the Arabic traders and invaders monopolized the land routes. They were the carriers of ancient science and technology.

Below there is a compass-like Qibla to find the direction of Mecca from anywhere. 18th century artifact.

The stamp portrays Md. Ibn Musa Al-Khwarazmi, the father of algorithm and algebra, a mathematician and astronomer who lived around 780AD to 850 AD in Uzbekistan.
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al-Kitāb al-mukhtaar fī Hisāb al-jabr wa-l-muqābala

The original book of balancing any equation by algebra. 830 AD, Arabic.
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Old 07-13-2008
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The numerals we call Arabic numerals actually come from India, and are called Hindu numerals by most people outside Europe. The Indian decimal system is actually extremely old, certainly older than any culture or religion we know today. They are only called Arabic numeral in Europe, because European scholars first learned them from Arabs who had travelled to India. Although zero and a decimal system were already invented in Europe before the Indian numerals arrived, they were just not widely used.

And the idea that Muslims invented fighting on horseback is rather bizzare, considering the epic cavalry battles of the Roman empire, the Romans went up against everything from British chariots to Hannibal's elephants on horseback. Maybe your thinking of horseback archery, which they didn't invent, but were very proficient at.

Atomism as a theory developed independently in Greece and India at about the same time, however the Greek theory had the important concept of Void as well. Of course the mechanics of both theories was utter bollocks of course and remember the indivisible particles are quarks, not atoms, physicists just got ahead of themselves and called it on Atomism too soon.


It alway seems to bother me when all the developments of the middle east and india are called Islamic inventions and Islamic science. There's something about the way people say Islam gave us algebra, or Islam invented whatever.

No on would claim Christianity discovered gravity and calculus, or that Paganism gave us trigonometry and mechanical computers, why is it that Islam takes credit for all the inventions developed in the Islamic empire, in a way that no one would with any other religion?
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Old 07-14-2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ShemaleFan_UK
Credit where credit's due.
Anna, dear, thats probably would be the best answer to your statement. The modern world maintains a poor image of the muslims and tend to forget what their contributions are. I criticised them above but I'm not blind to the good things that came from 'em.
Dont say that you are unaware of the fact that History has been twisted and turned according to the convenience of the Dominating nation. It has most often been a Political Propaganda rather than the undoctored truth. Think of the medieval church and the atrocities they inflicted upon the free thinkers. Consider how the Nazi expounded the twisted idea of the Aryan supremacy as a race and used it to their advantage. Consider the Aryan Invasion bullshit as postulated by the British scholars. Is it History as it is or History rewritten?
Quote:
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And the idea that Muslims invented fighting on horseback is rather bizzare, considering the epic cavalry battles of the Roman empire, the Romans went up against everything from British chariots to Hannibal's elephants on horseback. Maybe your thinking of horseback archery, which they didn't invent, but were very proficient at.
Right; They were not necessarily muslims that faught on horseback, consider them as pre-islamic Persians then. But they were the desert people who learnt to use horses as a mobilising technique in ancient warfare. You cannot predate Greek cavalry to Persian cavalry, remember Darius the great? 550BC.
Hannibal(247BC). The earliest Assyrian fighters, Persuma (early Persians) and Medes came from 850BC.
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Old 07-14-2008
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Default Ancient Cavalry

Long before the Iron Age, right in the middle of the Bronze Age, men fighting on horseback (cavalry) became the deciding factor for victory in warfare. Light horse-drawn chariots were used by the Sintashta-Petrovka warriors of Central Asia and nomadic Indo Iranians around 850 BC or earlier . And Greeks even learn to ride the first horse around 750 BC. [see the Greek timeline image below]
The horse driven chariot was soon adopted by the Pharaohs of the New Kingdom of Egypt as well as Assyrian and Babylonian ruling class.

Cavalry techniques were invented by Nomadic Horsemen of the Central Asian and Indo Iranian tribes such as the Persians, Parthians, Sarmatians and Aryan Ksatriyas. See the inscription dated 860 BC.
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Cavalry techniques were invented by Nomadic Horsemen of the Central Asian and Indo Iranian tribes such as the Persians, Parthians, Sarmatians and Aryan Ksatriyas. See the inscription dated 860 BC.
There is no proof that these people invented cavalry techniques. There is only proof that they used cavalry.
The tribes that came out of the Asian steppes were all mounted. Since there is no written history of these tribes before contact with the Chinese, Persians, and Greeks there is no way to verify when they first started using horses and cavalry tactics. Quite possibly they were using cavalry long before any of the "civilized world" were. So to say that the Persians, Pathians, Sarmatians, and Ksatriyas invented cavalry tactics is at best unproved. Quite possibly they did. The only thing that can be said for certain is that they were early adopters.
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As the Persians, Indo Iranians & Indo Aryans have mounted horses or used chariots in war at around 860BC, its a simple equation that they were the inventors. They were the first in known history to do it.

If others have invented it before that, they must have used their horses to squeeze oil from mustard seeds in some prehistoric oil-mill!
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Assigning ancient Persian, Asyrian and Babylonian inventions to Muslims is as ridiculous as assigning ancient Greek and early Roman inventions to Christians.

This is another case of assigning all middle eastern inventions to Islam, in a way that we just wouldn't stand for with any other religion.

Remember that the Persian religion was Zoroastrianism, until they were invaded by the Muslims, just as Europe was Pagan until they were forced to convert by Constantine.

We should not plunder the achievements of ancient civilisations to inflate the importance of our modern civilisations. Thier culture was much different from ours and we shouldn't try and recast thier cultures in the image of our own. Don't do a reverse 300.

Anna.



p.s. All Religion sucks! Notice how when Europe was more religious than the Middle East, Europe had the dark ages, and the Middle East had a golden age, and now the Middle East is more religious, and Europe is secular, it's the other way around. Coincidence? Methinks not!
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As the Persians, Indo Iranians & Indo Aryans have mounted horses or used chariots in war at around 860BC, its a simple equation that they were the inventors. They were the first in known history to do it.

If others have invented it before that, they must have used their horses to squeeze oil from mustard seeds in some prehistoric oil-mill!
They were the first to record that they used horses and chariots in war. That doesn't necessarily make them the first to use horses. I will grant you that they were more than likely the first ones to use chariots in war. But just because they were the first to record that they used horses in war doesn't necessarily mean they were the first. The tribes of the Asian steppes were illiterate and therefore there were no written records of their achievments and inventions. It is still quite possible that they were the first to use horses in war. One must remember that the tribes of the Asian steppes include Mongolians, Turks, and Huns. They were all quite accomplished riders when they invaded the middle east and Europe.
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SluttyShemaleAnna, my friend,
Quote:
Originally Posted by S*S*Anna
p.s. All Religion sucks! Notice how when Europe was more religious than the Middle East, Europe had the dark ages, and the Middle East had a golden age, and now the Middle East is more religious, and Europe is secular, it's the other way around. Coincidence? Methinks not!
Bravo, Anna . Thats a great observation. I agree with you on this one. Blinding oneself with Religion and giving Reason no scope can indeed lead to a decline for the followers.

Now for some hot combat! Yeay!
Quote:
Originally Posted by sesame
Right; They were not necessarily muslims that faught on horseback, consider them as pre-Islamic Persians then.
That said, why do you think this way?
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Assigning ancient Persian, Asyrian and Babylonian inventions to Muslims is as ridiculous as assigning ancient Greek and early Roman inventions to Christians.
This is another case of assigning all middle eastern inventions to Islam, in a way that we just wouldn't stand for with any other religion.
I have given credit as the earliest (860BC) users of Cavalry and Horse-driven -Chariots to the Persians, Indo Iranians & Indo Aryans, not the muslims. Muslims came much later. Islam was started by prophet Mohammad in his 40th year at 610 AD. So between earliest cavalry and the youngest Muslim, there is a difference of 1470 years !

So Anna, cool down... do you like cold coffee?
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Old 07-14-2008
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Originally Posted by SluttyShemaleAnna View Post
Assigning ancient Persian, Asyrian and Babylonian inventions to Muslims is as ridiculous as assigning ancient Greek and early Roman inventions to Christians.

This is another case of assigning all middle eastern inventions to Islam, in a way that we just wouldn't stand for with any other religion.

Remember that the Persian religion was Zoroastrianism, until they were invaded by the Muslims, just as Europe was Pagan until they were forced to convert by Constantine.

We should not plunder the achievements of ancient civilisations to inflate the importance of our modern civilisations. Thier culture was much different from ours and we shouldn't try and recast thier cultures in the image of our own. Don't do a reverse 300.

Anna.



p.s. All Religion sucks! Notice how when Europe was more religious than the Middle East, Europe had the dark ages, and the Middle East had a golden age, and now the Middle East is more religious, and Europe is secular, it's the other way around. Coincidence? Methinks not!
There you have it...Someone finally detected the pattern that has been driving me crazy!!!
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Originally Posted by sesame View Post
0====1====2====3====4====5====6====7====8====9==:D

Although I question about the numerical or Decimal system being of Arabic source. The concept of Zero came from Kanad the proponent of Vaishesic philosophy in India. Plus the decimal system was already there in vedic maths. I am a student of Philosophy, so trust me on this.
COOL, That's real cool.
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I watched on documentary, last night, about the citizens of Tehran. It was certainly not the Tehran I had expected to see from the news reports that are in the media. There were not a lot of men with long beards and plain clothing. Nor were the women veiled and wearing black. Instead most citizens were dressed as you would find people dressed in the west. The women did wear headscarves. One reporter that was interviewed explained the dress as being a form of expression because the people have been repressed for so long in so many ways.

Iran is still not a liberal society, but after watching that documentary I would conclude that it is not as harsh as the media leads us to believe.

(The documentary was filmed by a BBC reporter and camera crew. The reporter did point out restrictions still in place.)
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10,000 years ago people were the physically exactly the way they are today. People are People
But what I wanted to say was that before the Roman Empire became the Holy Roman Empire, there was no word for homosexual. It was all just sex. You were judged on how you handled it.
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Old 06-16-2010
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I am an iranian, who happened to be a lover of shemales, trans, whatever it is called who has breasts and penis together. I think that is just very much normal to be or being attracted to these lovely people, it is just like loving the nights as much as the days or loving winter as much as spring, they are offering the cold and warm breeze at the same time to my heart.

First of all i want to say Iranians are humans like any other nations, we have good and bad people, we have Muslims (most of the country), christians (i am friends with some), jews, ...whatever. Religion for me is never the first important thing, before being a religious person you should be a good person i belileve.

Iranians are totally different from Arabs, our language is different our culture is also very much different, so what you see in the passport picture of a covered woman is an Arab and not Iranian, if i see a woman covered like that in Iran it is wiered and maybe funny to me just like what it may be for you. Iranians are not having more than one wife (in the past when Islam came to Iran, for a few years we had some men with 2 wives but i do not see any one like that nowadays)

Iranians were praying a God (Ahura Mazda) before Islam came to our country (by Arabs forcing themselves to Great Persia), with 3 simple famous rules; The Good Dialogue, The Good Deeds and The Good Thoughts!
Egyptians build the pyramids by using the slaves they captured during wars, but Persepolis was made by HIRING workers, the bills and recipts for workers payments are found today, we even had lady supervisors among these workers.

Today Iran is a Muslim country as much as USA is a Christian country, so what?! Iranians could be Jews if a jewish army had attacked Iran at the time instead of a Muslim army, for the same reason we could be now Christians, Indos Or Budha followers....

Iran (old Persia) has lots of Philisophers, Astronats, Poets who can be proud of. Khawrazmi is Persian (even now many people who live in Uzbikestan are talking Farsi), Molana -the Great Poet/Philosopher- is persian (today Turkey has the honor of having his body buried in their city Konya-which won't make him a Turk as they say), Avecina -the Great Physician/Astronat/Philosopher-is Persian , Razi -the founder of Alchohol- was Persian......i can name many famous names in sience and literature(you can easily search the web for these names and see that it is not only my words). In that time Islam was already distributed in Iran and Arabic became (unfortunately) the second sientific language in the middle east, so just because these men wrote some of their books in Arabic can not change the fact that they were Persians and not Arabs. Just because Iran nowadays is being ruled by some stupid clergy dictators who are using Islam (could be any other religion as well) for their own benefit can not ruin Persia's 4000 years cultural background, the Islam ruined our country enormously .....even now the Arabs are trying to change the name of Persian Gulf to Arabian Gulf and the western media is helping them with a lot of things other than this.

I am in no fight with any person, i just wrote what i thought may help you people (whom i have a common interest with) think and study a little bit before you believe whatever comes to your ears and eyes by your media.

Finally, i should say that in the past few years the Iranian goverment has accepted (and actually helped) the fact that we have some people who are in need of changing their sex in our country.

Good Luck and thanks for your time
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Old 06-21-2010
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Better Iran than, say, Saudi Arabia.
I read a very interesting book recently: Chasing a Mirage: The Tragic Illusion of an Islamic State by Tarek Fatah. Blows open many myths about Islam, and the supposed need for an "Islamic" government.
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