Butterfly Effect Phenomenon or something like it

[Leeya]

Hey there!

Bradley flipped a coin... "Heads" he will get out of his cosy sofa and go get a DVD from Nick, "Tails" he will stay put and watch whatever is on TV.

"Heads" came up. So he went to Nick's place, and instead of taking the DVD back home they decided to watch the movie together. Few beers, this and that, and it got pretty late. Bradley headed home while Nick was too tired to do anything, but was very hungry so he ordered some food. The next day he called up the doctor because he was having a bad stomach ache (ordering that cheap take aways was not a good idea afterall). He called up the doctor at 1pm on Monday, and made a booking for 4 pm.

At 1pm David called up the same clinic, but the phone was busy because Nick was on the phone, so he called again later wanting to book 4pm appointment, but it was already taken by Nick. So he booked the 5pm one. David caught up the bus near his house at 4-30pm, spending some extra time looking for his change. After he took a seat, atfer the bus was passing the second traffic light, a truck smashed into a bus... David died...

But what if Bradley would have flipped the coin and "Tails" came up? Bradley would not have gone to Nick's house. Nick would not have ordered cheap take away food, and instead would have cooked something. Nich would not have suffered a bad stomach ache. Nick would not have called up the clinic. Nick would not have booked the 4pm slot. David would have got that 4pm slot. He would not have need to catch the 4-30pm bus to get to his 5pm appointment. He would not have died. Or would he? What if Nick would have got food poisoning from his own cooking and called in for a doctor and booke the 4 pm appointment anyway? What if when David would have been getting to his bus stop to catch the bus to get to the 4pm appointment would have got his by a car?

Of course there are many other possible ways to describe it, uncountable number of ways, but really...

Do we hold the power in the choices we make to drastically change every little thing around us? Or is everything already pre-determined and the choices that we make only change the way we get to the final outcome? Will my decision not to brush teeth today will ultimately make you a million bucks next year?

Thoughts?...

[Jenae LaTorque]

LOL Don't brush your teeth, I could use a million bucks.

LOL even the bible thumpers preach free will. About the only thing they get right.

Life is like a pinball machine. You just got to try and keep the ball moving and score some points

[TracyCoxx]

Free will is an illusion. If Einstein is correct (and his theories haven't failed a test yet) then time is merely another dimension. In which case the future already exists, we just cannot perceive it from our position in spacetime.

Why can't we perceive it yet and remember the future? Because the 2nd law of thermodynamics means that the chemical reactions that create memories in our brains only work in one direction in time.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Free will is an illusion. If Einstein is correct (and his theories haven't failed a test yet) then time is merely another dimension. In which case the future already exists, we just cannot perceive it from our position in spacetime.

Why can't we perceive it yet and remember the future? Because the 2nd law of thermodynamics means that the chemical reactions that create memories in our brains only work in one direction in time.

Hey Tracy! Very good, profound, are you a physicist?

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Why can't we perceive it yet and remember the future? Because the 2nd law of thermodynamics means that the chemical reactions that create memories in our brains only work in one direction in time.

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by Tread

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

A quote from weburbia.com.

"To keep things simple, let's start by considering just classical Newtonian mechanics. The form which the laws of physics take is crucial to our understanding of causality. Newton's laws take the form of a set of differential equations describing the motion of particles under forces that act between them. If we know the initial positions and velocities of all the particles at an initial time then their positions are determined at any future time. So does this form for the laws of physics allow us to justify our concept of causality. It would seem so because the initial conditions seem to be causing all that happens in the future.

There is a catch. The laws of physics in this form can be made to work identically in reverse. If we know the final state of a system we can just as easily determine its past. Newton's laws do not explain why past events are the cause of future events.

How about the laws of thermodynamics? If we have a system of many particles then we can not determine all their positions and velocities exactly. When we know only some statistical information about them they obey laws which seem not to be reversible. The second laws of thermodynamics says that entropy must always increase. Could this be linked to causality?

Indeed, the continual increase of entropy is intimately linked to our perception of causality. Entropy is a measure of disorder in a system and defines an arrow of time which can be linked to the psychological arrow. There is, however, a catch. The second law of thermodynamics is inexplicable in terms of the underlying laws of physics which, as far as we know, are reversible. This is enshrined in a theorem of relativistic quantum field theory which proves the necessity of CPT conservation.

The increase of entropy can be understood in certain idealised experiments. For example, if we take two closed containers filled with gases which are each in thermal and chemical equilibrium, and allow them to mix by connecting the two systems without allowing any energy to escape or enter, then when the system comes back into equilibrium the entropy of the final state can be shown theoretically to be higher than the combined entropies in the two original systems. This seems to be theoretical evidence for increasing entropy and it is confirmed by experiment, but we must not be missled. The assumption that systems tend towards equilibrium has been justified. We are victims of our prejudices about causality again and have devised an argument with circular reasoning to support it."

Perhaps you guys can explain what this means.

[The Conquistador]

It is actually known as the Chaos Theory.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by randolph

Perhaps you guys can explain what this means.

Explain what exactly? Or a short roundup of the whole article?

The causality in the memory example is not reversible either, not like the Newtonian mechanics and relation to causality.
The thermodynamics describes Energy.

The example with the two closed containers filled with gases which are each in thermal and chemical equilibrium and don't allowing any energy to escape or enter. The answer is later written on that page you have this from. You can't compare the two single entropy's in equilibrium to one combined entropy. You have to compare a single entropy with two sub systems in equilibrium to the combined equilibrium. If that is done, there isn't a conflict anymore.

This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Tread

This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!

The only way time travel is possible is through parallel universes.

[Tread]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

The only way time travel is possible is through parallel universes.

Nothing is easier than travel in the future. If you travel fast and at a place with a high gravity your time is relative slower than on stationary and low gravity places.
Let's say you travel very fast over the surface of Jupiter and come back to earth, you are relative seen from you in the future.
The person who travelled the most in the future in one trip is Сергей Константинович Крикалёв (Sergei Konstantinowitsch Krikaljow), a Russian cosmonaut. He travelled about 0.04 seconds in future, relative to earth.
He travelled only fast.

[randolph]

"This article describes also the paradox way of time as closed loop, where you can travel forward until you reach the past. This way wouldn't hurt thermodynamics because time always goes in one direction, but there would be problems with causality, like you kill your own grandfather. Then you had killed a necessary cause of your own existence and wouldn't be able to kill him!"

We live in a "Newtonian" world yet Einstein's theories, quantum mechanics and chaos theory are active. It seems the more we know the less we understand. If the LHC finds the Higgs boson, more mysteries will be revealed. Physics may be even better than sex.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Hey Tracy! Very good, profound, are you a physicist?

Yup

Originally Posted by Tread

2nd law of thermodynamics? No. If it would be able to perceive the future it would be fine to remember it with this law.
You mean Causality. The effect (memory) can't happen before the case (the experience) happens.
Memories are always showing the past, never the present or future.

I mean that there is nothing that physically prevents the chemical reactions that encode memories from happening in reverse time, except for the 2nd law of thermo. For example, it's possible for freak sound, tremors and temperature fluctuations to travel through the air and floor to propel thousands of bits of egg shell and egg goop in the right direction with enough force to come together perfectly into an egg shell and form atomic bonds to become a solid egg. And the momentum of this fusion could propel the egg up to a counter top where it smoothly rolls across the counter. It is astronomically improbable though. Same with chemical reactions that encode memories. They are physically able to record the future, but it is astronomically improbable.

Originally Posted by randolph

A quote from weburbia.com.

"To keep things simple, let's start by considering just classical Newtonian mechanics. The form which the laws of physics take is crucial to our understanding of causality.....

....

Indeed, the continual increase of entropy is intimately linked to our perception of causality. Entropy is a measure of disorder in a system and defines an arrow of time which can be linked to the psychological arrow....

Yup, that's what I'm saying.

Originally Posted by randolph

There is, however, a catch. The second law of thermodynamics is inexplicable in terms of the underlying laws of physics which, as far as we know, are reversible.

It's not inexplicable. Entropy, or disorder, always increases. This is because there are vastly more disordered states than ordered states, so it is more probable for a system to become more disordered. Whenever it appears that something becomes more ordered, like when a star collapses into a beautifully symmetric neutron star, it always ends up causing more disorder elsewhere, so the net change is more entropy.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Yup



I mean that there is nothing that physically prevents the chemical reactions that encode memories from happening in reverse time, except for the 2nd law of thermo. For example, it's possible for freak sound, tremors and temperature fluctuations to travel through the air and floor to propel thousands of bits of egg shell and egg goop in the right direction with enough force to come together perfectly into an egg shell and form atomic bonds to become a solid egg. And the momentum of this fusion could propel the egg up to a counter top where it smoothly rolls across the counter. It is astronomically improbable though. Same with chemical reactions that encode memories. They are physically able to record the future, but it is astronomically improbable.



Yup, that's what I'm saying.


It's not inexplicable. Entropy, or disorder, always increases. This is because there are vastly more disordered states than ordered states, so it is more probable for a system to become more disordered. Whenever it appears that something becomes more ordered, like when a star collapses into a beautifully symmetric neutron star, it always ends up causing more disorder elsewhere, so the net change is more entropy.

OK, entropy increases in a closed system where no heat can enter or leave. However, If heat can enter or leave the system then it is compatible with the 2nd law. Life is a process of entropy reduction. However in the process of creating life, it is raising the entropy in its surroundings. So the 2nd law is preserved?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK, entropy increases in a closed system where no heat can enter or leave. However, If heat can enter or leave the system then it is compatible with the 2nd law. Life is a process of entropy reduction. However in the process of creating life, it is raising the entropy in its surroundings. So the 2nd law is preserved?

Right. Life is a self organizing force, which lowers entropy. But life always produces byproducts through respiration, thermal radiation and excrement so overall entropy is increased.

[Mel Asher]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Free will is an illusion. If Einstein is correct (and his theories haven't failed a test yet) then time is merely another dimension. In which case the future already exists, we just cannot perceive it from our position in spacetime.

Why can't we perceive it yet and remember the future? Because the 2nd law of thermodynamics means that the chemical reactions that create memories in our brains only work in one direction in time.

Sorry TracyCoxx, but you are borrowing concepts from one area of science and using them to postulate an idea in another.

The second law of thermodynamics ( for the benefit of readers who haven't come across it ) basically states that Heat Transfer through a physical medium always results in a loss of energy, however small, e.g. Work-in does not equal Work-out.

Apat from the fact that the chemistry of synapses which must be involved in the transfer of memory from one location to another is still really not very well understood, let alone the amounts of heat involved in the transition process, stored memory in the brain appears to operate on an entirely different principle. So while it can be destroyed by applied heat, its existence may not depend on the levels of hat within the cranial cavity. A simple example is that of Brain-cooling to enhance a surgical procedure. Unless the temperature change is really extreme, the individual's recall is relatively undiminished.

As far as Chemical Reactions go, as I am sure you already know, there is a multitude of examples of Reversible Reactions resulting in clearly functional products.

If the future involves, as you seem to be saying, a vector process in the Time dimension, then there is absolutely no reason why the vectors involved should not assume negatives values of some sort.

Personally I am not convinced that Einsteinian concepts should be identified so casually with Chemical or Physiological processes.

Perhaps you would care to expand your ideas a little more ?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

Sorry TracyCoxx, but you are borrowing concepts from one area of science and using them to postulate an idea in another.

The second law of thermodynamics ( for the benefit of readers who haven't come across it ) basically states that Heat Transfer through a physical medium always results in a loss of energy, however small, e.g. Work-in does not equal Work-out.

Actually, for your benefit , the 2nd law of thermo states that the entropy of an isolated system that is not in equilibrium will tend to increase over time. And in a closed or complete system, you will not lose energy. The change in work you're talking about is in the 1st law.

Originally Posted by Mel Asher

Perhaps you would care to expand your ideas a little more ?

Ok, what I'm trying to say is that every physical process is reversible. If you recorded a movie of marbles bouncing around, or roller coasters or acrobats, or pretty much anything, and you play it backwards, you will not find anything that violates the laws of physics. Like the example in an earlier post where I talked about an egg falling in reverse. It's all physically fine in reverse.

When watching the movie backwards, you may think there's a lot of odd coincidences happening, like ripples in water coincidentally converging right where a rock just happens to fly out of the water. That is the only odd thing about running physical processes backwards, and that's because of the 2nd law.

The reason entropy always increases as time moves forward isn't because of any mysterious property of time. It's because at the time of the big bang, the universe was in an incredibly organized state. It's entropy was at a minimum. So the only thing that could happen from then on is dynamics that increased entropy.

Now, as I said the chemical reactions in your brain that create memories obey the 2nd law as well. So memories created are the result of past events. The process in reverse may be physically possible as long as an incredible amount of conditions are perfect for each and every memory recorded, but it's astronomically improbable.