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  #1  
Old 08-09-2011
JodieTs JodieTs is offline
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Default Holiday in England, anyone?

http://www.youtube.com/uk looting

Too many vids to post.
In short, the uk has gone to shit in the last 4 days.
Everywhere people looting.
Police indifferent.
Homes set on fire
people getting murdered.

They should arm our shopkeepers with M-16's
& grenade launchers and immunity from prosecution.

The looters need to be killed.
Along with the looters parents.
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Old 08-09-2011
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Originally Posted by JodieTs View Post
http://www.youtube.com/uk looting

Too many vids to post.
In short, the uk has gone to shit in the last 4 days.
Everywhere people looting.
Police indifferent.
Homes set on fire
people getting murdered.

They should arm our shopkeepers with M-16's
& grenade launchers and immunity from prosecution.

The looters need to be killed.
Along with the looters parents.

Reminiscent of the Watts riots.
This is an outrage!

Looters should be shot on site.
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Old 08-09-2011
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Well you know when law enforcement won't do the job it becomes a citizens right to defend their neighborhoods, businesses and homes... oh wait, ya'll been stripped of your rights to possess weapons LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
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Old 08-09-2011
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Plenty communities are armed to the teeth and fighting when necessary to defend themselves (Often ironically, the much maligned immigrant communities. Certainly I've seen lines of sword-bearing Sikhs positioning themselves to defend the usually quite mixed-race poor neighbourhoods that some of this violence is damaging).

This rioting is rooted in deeper social and economic problems affecting the country. A large proportion of the country's youth feel (Correctly) that they have no real future prospects, after this current government (As with the previous conservative government in the 1980s) has stripped social programmes of funding, slowed economic growth to almost nothing with massive sweeping budget cuts, and has cut off higher education to all but the richest of the population.

When you have one of the highest economic disparities between rich and poor in most of europe (though still NOWHERE near as bad as the US) and then compound the situation of an entire generation who feel (And often quite rightly so) that they have nothing at all to lose, with increasingly aggressive behaviour of police, themselves stressed to breaking point by massive budget cuts, and layoffs, all wondering if their jobs will be the next ones to arbitrarily be dropped, you have a powderkeg, and a lit fuse.

Interestingly, the more northern areas (We consider regions like Manchester to be "the south" even if they think of themselves as "north") have not seen rioting this time around. This seems largely due to our part of the country already having an "us vs them" mentality of hatred towards London, which we see as more of an invading foreign power, and having an almost nationalistic pride in our shared identity and in our cities, rather than nihilistically seeing no value at all in anything.

Last edited by Amy; 08-09-2011 at 06:45 PM.
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Old 08-09-2011
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How about this, I'll be a mercenary for hire. The city of London can provide me with an armored SUV and the following weapons and tools and I will do the job myself, free of charge, only because I enjoy law enforcement work and hate rioters.

1x M4A1 carbine with full auto mode
1x H&K MP7A1 submachine gun
2x M1911 .45 ACP handgun
1x M32 MGL six shot grenade launcher w/ tear gas and flare rounds
1x SR-25 sniper rifle
1x Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun with rubber and pepper rounds
1x Taser police gun with ~100 replaceable cartridges

I'll need enough ammo, magazines and 40mm grenade launcher rounds for all weaponry plus hand thrown tear gas, flashbangs and a variety of detaining tools such as LEO zipties and hand cuffs. I can solve the problem in about 48 hours. Because there is rioting in other cities I will have to travel so maybe up to 72 hours to end all violence. You can thank America.
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Old 08-09-2011
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Given that all this kicked off BECAUSE of someone being shot... I don't really see guns making things better. Interesting to consider what it'd be like if we DID have gun ownership permitted here, I imagine NATO would be setting up a no-fly zone over the country right now, and several countries would be beginning to recognise a transitional government based in Salford....
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Old 08-09-2011
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Originally Posted by Amy View Post
Given that all this kicked off BECAUSE of someone being shot... I don't really see guns making things better. Interesting to consider what it'd be like if we DID have gun ownership permitted here, I imagine NATO would be setting up a no-fly zone over the country right now, and several countries would be beginning to recognise a transitional government based in Salford....
Nah, I'd only gun down the fools tossing "petrol bombs" as reported by the news. It is an act of terrorism. The other morons would be pelted with rubber bullets or pepper rounds and gassed out with tear gas. If London PD has access to audio weapons, I'll gladly use that too. It's basically high pitched audio frequencies blasted at unruly morons to disperse crowds.
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  #8  
Old 08-09-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyKaiti View Post
How about this, I'll be a mercenary for hire. The city of London can provide me with an armored SUV and the following weapons and tools and I will do the job myself, free of charge, only because I enjoy law enforcement work and hate rioters.

1x M4A1 carbine with full auto mode
1x H&K MP7A1 submachine gun
2x M1911 .45 ACP handgun
1x M32 MGL six shot grenade launcher w/ tear gas and flare rounds
1x SR-25 sniper rifle
1x Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun with rubber and pepper rounds
1x Taser police gun with ~100 replaceable cartridges

I'll need enough ammo, magazines and 40mm grenade launcher rounds for all weaponry plus hand thrown tear gas, flashbangs and a variety of detaining tools such as LEO zipties and hand cuffs. I can solve the problem in about 48 hours. Because there is rioting in other cities I will have to travel so maybe up to 72 hours to end all violence. You can thank America.
Kitty I've never crossed a post with you but after reading this.... you are great! (you got a nice car too!) I can join too as a mercenary! (Love your arsenal! But for me I'd drop the Taser for a nice sharp Katana and the MP7A1 GL for a Nice 'n heavy SMAW Rocket Launcher) So we can solve this mess in +-24 hours! Stop the riots and everyone that survived (few) is happy again! Never underestimate the power of hardcore gamers!! -_-

Kitty I've added some rep. Ahh good sense of humor so rare to find in a girl!

Last edited by Hentailover; 08-09-2011 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 08-09-2011
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While we're on the topic of making transatlantic suggestions, how about predator strikes on the next few tea party rallies, solve all America's problems in short order!






(For those who may not take it as intended -OBVIOUSLY I'm being quite facetious here. Just to illustrate that the people behaving in an abhorrent manner, are, to be fair, the victims of increasingly conservative government, even from putatively liberal regimes -we had it with Blair, imposing a virtual police state and involving us in wars which we are STILL paying the cost of out of cuts to government responsibilities at home, America has it with Obama, and his systematic implementation of every policy on the Republican manifesto- and as a result, the number of disenfranchised individuals in the population has grown to a point where rabid aggression is the only way they can get their voices across.

For comparison, peaceful protests have been staged across the country for almost a year now, with millions taking to the streets, only to be flippantly told by the government, in these precise words, to "get over it". When all attempts to protest the activity of a government 70% of voters voted against are met with this disdain, what recourse but violent uprisings remains?)

Last edited by Amy; 08-09-2011 at 09:19 PM.
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Old 08-09-2011
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Originally Posted by Amy View Post
While we're on the topic of making transatlantic suggestions, how about predator strikes on the next few tea party rallies, solve all America's problems in short order!

That would be a wonderful trade.
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  #11  
Old 08-10-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy View Post
Given that all this kicked off BECAUSE of someone being shot... I don't really see guns making things better. Interesting to consider what it'd be like if we DID have gun ownership permitted here, I imagine NATO would be setting up a no-fly zone over the country right now, and several countries would be beginning to recognise a transitional government based in Salford....
By all accounts, the person shot and killed by police was a gang-banging drug dealer. Since all the people rioting probably aren't overly upset that he is dead, it stands to reason that the majority of them are just using it as an excuse to get free stuff via looting.

I just hope that none of my online friends and family from here or at my other forum don't get caught in the middle of this.
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Old 08-10-2011
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Sadly, I think this type of rioting and looting is going to be a common feature of British society from now on. There is a saying that it is an ill bird who fouls his own nest, and that's what these cretinous looters have done: fouled their own nest by destroying businesses and houses in their own communities. Their imbecility and total lack of respect for others is frightening.
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Old 08-10-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shadows View Post
By all accounts, the person shot and killed by police was a gang-banging drug dealer. Since all the people rioting probably aren't overly upset that he is dead, it stands to reason that the majority of them are just using it as an excuse to get free stuff via looting.

I just hope that none of my online friends and family from here or at my other forum don't get caught in the middle of this.
Being serious. That's obvious that's only a excuse! Just like the G8 at Genoa, the same story Police kills one scum = free stuff for other scums. Only a fucking excuse to do Chaos and steal!

I hope that all the UK guys & gals here will be OK in this bad moment!
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Old 08-10-2011
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Ah you know, the Brits riot every 20-30 years. Broadwater Farm estate kicked off in the 80's, as did Brixton. The only diofference this time is that the tossers have social networking to propagate their plans. A lot of these housing estate fodder are pure scum, single parent, ill-educated, welfare culture, no discipline.

Last edited by dauls; 08-10-2011 at 10:17 PM.
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  #15  
Old 08-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyKaiti View Post
Well you know when law enforcement won't do the job it becomes a citizens right to defend their neighborhoods, businesses and homes... oh wait, ya'll been stripped of your rights to possess weapons LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL
We still have pointed sticks, and fruit!


The uk is a joke.
Groups of residents have been forming small community groups to defend their areas against looters and rioter
and the top cop has told them publicly not to do this!
bbc.co.uk/news/uk You couldn't make this shit up.

The second amendment in the usa was put in precisely to stop the shit we have in the uk happening.
The uk needs a Bill of Rights
just like the usa one.
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Old 08-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KittyKaiti View Post
How about this, I'll be a mercenary for hire. The city of London can provide me with an armored SUV and the following weapons and tools and I will do the job myself, free of charge, only because I enjoy law enforcement work and hate rioters.

1x M4A1 carbine with full auto mode
1x H&K MP7A1 submachine gun
2x M1911 .45 ACP handgun
1x M32 MGL six shot grenade launcher w/ tear gas and flare rounds
1x SR-25 sniper rifle
1x Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun with rubber and pepper rounds
1x Taser police gun with ~100 replaceable cartridges

I'll need enough ammo, magazines and 40mm grenade launcher rounds for all weaponry plus hand thrown tear gas, flashbangs and a variety of detaining tools such as LEO zipties and hand cuffs. I can solve the problem in about 48 hours. Because there is rioting in other cities I will have to travel so maybe up to 72 hours to end all violence. You can thank America.
If it was up to me
you would be so hired.
Free meals and gym membership would also be thrown in.
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Old 08-11-2011
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I personally believe it all started with the guy in London being shot dead... In all the times he had been arrested before he was hand cuffed, brought before the magistrates who gave him such a low sentence or even just a caution and so he was free to do his evils again..... being shot dead, to all his gang mates, for pulling a gun and aiming at a police officer was a bit harsh (remember, here in Engand we are not taught right from wrong anymore by the justice system.. you can do a crime here and be expected to be let off).
The riots started off as just that ..Riots, protests against the police for shooting dead one of their own. remember Raoul Moat, one of the nastiest characters you could possibly meet. shot dead by police and is now a martyr.

The looting just happenend as a consequence and the crowds turned ferral. it is human nature to want something for nothing.
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Old 08-11-2011
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Originally Posted by KittyKaiti View Post
Nah, I'd only gun down the fools tossing "petrol bombs" as reported by the news
Look,
you don't need to sell yourself.
You've got the job; you're hired.

I just rang the Metropolitan Police Commissioner.
He said you would have to show him your badge first, though.
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Old 08-11-2011
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Originally Posted by Hentailover View Post
Kitty
I can join too as a mercenary! (Love your arsenal! But for me I'd drop the Taser for a nice sharp Katana and the MP7A1 GL for a Nice 'n heavy SMAW Rocket Launcher) So we can solve this mess in +-24 hours! Stop the riots and everyone that survived (few) is happy again! Never underestimate the power of hardcore gamers
You're hired too!
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Old 08-11-2011
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Well, I guess England needs to resurrect a two hundred year old policy of sending the scumbags to Australia.
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Old 08-11-2011
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Originally Posted by JodieTs View Post
http://www.youtube.com/uk looting

Too many vids to post.
In short, the uk has gone to shit in the last 4 days.
Everywhere people looting.
Police indifferent.
Homes set on fire
people getting murdered.

They should arm our shopkeepers with M-16's
& grenade launchers and immunity from prosecution.

The looters need to be killed.
Along with the looters parents.
Don?t be so stupid. UK has not ?gone to shit?. Yes the riots are terrible but despite what the media like to portray this is not happening everywhere but is localised to certain areas. It?s right to be concerned about what is happening but lets put things into perspective please

Although from your last comments I guess you are being sarcastic?
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Old 08-11-2011
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Originally Posted by JodieTs View Post
Look,
you don't need to sell yourself.
You've got the job; you're hired.

I just rang the Metropolitan Police Commissioner.
He said you would have to show him your badge first, though.
All I got is a security guard badge from my days working security. I can provide pretty much my own outfit and vehicle. I'll just need a bullet proof vest to counter stabbing weapons or possible illegal firearms. Oh and I'm a COD:MW kinda gamer.
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Old 08-11-2011
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quote:-

Jodie: (from the avatar) I'm a time traveller. Or I was. Im stuck in 1969


When you get away from 1969, could you meet me last thursday?
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Old 08-11-2011
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Originally Posted by JodieTs View Post
You're hired too!
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Battlefield: Bad company
I need to know for insurance indemnity options!
More like a deadly combination of Bad Company and Just Cause. Prepare for some delicious, evil solving Chaos with a smile London!
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Old 08-11-2011
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It doesnt really paint a good picture for London or the United Kingdom ahead of the Olympics next year. But then China's human rights record didnt paint a good picture for them, but they did alright out of the Olympics...

Anyhow, that's off topic a little.

I dont really like the term "riots" because there was no political motive for any of the rioters. All that took part are feral scum who deserve nothing in life and all that the law can give them (in terms of punishment). They were opportunistic thieves who think blaming the government for everything will get them places in life. Duh. No.

People have lost homes, cars, possessions, businesses and possibly their jobs because of businesses not being able to afford to open up again.

Some of the yobs that took part in this did so to further their own greed and gain. They could afford items they stole. One of the first to be charged was (and I say was, because I doubt he will be in September) a primary school teaching assisstant. A member of society and the community that children are supposed to look up to. Another was a 19 year old university student whose father is actually a millionaire. They had no reason to riot or protest.

The police should have used a very heavy hand with the apes that tore up London, Bristol, Manchester, Birmingham and other cities in the United Kingdom. But given the outcry over their tactics at the G20 protests two or so years ago, they were worried that their actions would be condemmed.

The past few days have really angered me and many people in this country. Yes, the economy and job market is bleak at the moment, but it will pick up. There are jobs around, just people are too stupid and lazy to go a look for them.

The next time this happens I hope the police give these idiots a bloody good hammering. There was no reason for cities to be torn up as they were.
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Old 08-11-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amy View Post
Plenty communities are armed to the teeth and fighting when necessary to defend themselves (Often ironically, the much maligned immigrant communities. Certainly I've seen lines of sword-bearing Sikhs positioning themselves to defend the usually quite mixed-race poor neighbourhoods that some of this violence is damaging).

This rioting is rooted in deeper social and economic problems affecting the country. A large proportion of the country's youth feel (Correctly) that they have no real future prospects, after this current government (As with the previous conservative government in the 1980s) has stripped social programmes of funding, slowed economic growth to almost nothing with massive sweeping budget cuts, and has cut off higher education to all but the richest of the population.

When you have one of the highest economic disparities between rich and poor in most of europe (though still NOWHERE near as bad as the US) and then compound the situation of an entire generation who feel (And often quite rightly so) that they have nothing at all to lose, with increasingly aggressive behaviour of police, themselves stressed to breaking point by massive budget cuts, and layoffs, all wondering if their jobs will be the next ones to arbitrarily be dropped, you have a powderkeg, and a lit fuse.

Interestingly, the more northern areas (We consider regions like Manchester to be "the south" even if they think of themselves as "north") have not seen rioting this time around. This seems largely due to our part of the country already having an "us vs them" mentality of hatred towards London, which we see as more of an invading foreign power, and having an almost nationalistic pride in our shared identity and in our cities, rather than nihilistically seeing no value at all in anything.
Thank you, Amy, for saying what no one else did: that despite the despicable behavior of the rioters, and the fact that such action does nothing to advance the "cause" of those who riot (to the degree that they have a "cause"), the riots are definitely rooted in a socio-economic situation of deep alienation from society. Here in the United States, it has become the norm that ascending generations are worse off than their parents. The economic disparities in this country grow and grow. Young people face a future of temporary labor (what the French rightly call "precarious work") and increasing alienation and atomization. It's no wonder that any spark can lead to conflagration.

This is not to excuse rioters. Individual or group violence is a bankrupt approach to changing the world. The youth of England, just like the youth of the United States, could learn a thing or two from the serious side (i.e., not the Yippies) of the anti-Vietnam War movement and how it was organized, or how the students in France in 1968 united with trade unions and nearly brought down the DeGaulle government.
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Old 08-11-2011
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How about this, I'll be a mercenary for hire. The city of London can provide me with an armored SUV and the following weapons and tools and I will do the job myself, free of charge, only because I enjoy law enforcement work and hate rioters.

1x M4A1 carbine with full auto mode
1x H&K MP7A1 submachine gun
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1x M32 MGL six shot grenade launcher w/ tear gas and flare rounds
1x SR-25 sniper rifle
1x Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun with rubber and pepper rounds
1x Taser police gun with ~100 replaceable cartridges

I'll need enough ammo, magazines and 40mm grenade launcher rounds for all weaponry plus hand thrown tear gas, flashbangs and a variety of detaining tools such as LEO zipties and hand cuffs. I can solve the problem in about 48 hours. Because there is rioting in other cities I will have to travel so maybe up to 72 hours to end all violence. You can thank America.
You should start up a PMC. Governments around the world seem to have quite a fondness for mercenaries nowadays.

Plus you could have a niche market for contractors and porn all in one. Polo shirts, baseball caps, Oakleys, M4's and girls with big dongs. If you make it, they will come...
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Old 08-12-2011
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All I got is a security guard badge from my days working security. I can provide pretty much my own outfit and vehicle. I'll just need a bullet proof vest to counter stabbing weapons or possible illegal firearms. Oh and I'm a COD:MW kinda gamer.
You were a Security Guard as well? Maybe we should both go to the UK and "rattle some trees". It'll look good on my resume.

Plus, I'm First Aid certified so that should help in a pinch.
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Old 08-12-2011
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Thank you, Amy, for saying what no one else did: that despite the despicable behavior of the rioters, and the fact that such action does nothing to advance the "cause" of those who riot (to the degree that they have a "cause"), the riots are definitely rooted in a socio-economic situation of deep alienation from society. Here in the United States, it has become the norm that ascending generations are worse off than their parents. The economic disparities in this country grow and grow. Young people face a future of temporary labor (what the French rightly call "precarious work") and increasing alienation and atomization. It's no wonder that any spark can lead to conflagration.

This is not to excuse rioters. Individual or group violence is a bankrupt approach to changing the world. The youth of England, just like the youth of the United States, could learn a thing or two from the serious side (i.e., not the Yippies) of the anti-Vietnam War movement and how it was organized, or how the students in France in 1968 united with trade unions and nearly brought down the DeGaulle government.
You are quite right SMC. The exportation of manufacturing jobs to China by corporate America has resulted in a very serious labor problem. It's the same in England. Unless the economy improves rapidly (unlikely), we can expect unrest here.
Corporations are becoming international with little regard for their home base. Profit rules, companies find a place to manufacture where labor is a bit above slavery. Once the workers demand a decent wage, they move on to the next country desperate for work. The world of Milton Friedman has arrived.
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Old 08-12-2011
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You were a Security Guard as well? Maybe we should both go to the UK and "rattle some trees". It'll look good on my resume.

Plus, I'm First Aid certified so that should help in a pinch.
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Old 08-13-2011
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...This rioting is rooted in deeper social and economic problems affecting the country. A large proportion of the country's youth feel (Correctly) that they have no real future prospects, after this current government (As with the previous conservative government in the 1980s) has stripped social programmes of funding, slowed economic growth to almost nothing with massive sweeping budget cuts, and has cut off higher education to all but the richest of the population.

When you have one of the highest economic disparities between rich and poor in most of europe (though still NOWHERE near as bad as the US) and then compound the situation of an entire generation who feel (And often quite rightly so) that they have nothing at all to lose, with increasingly aggressive behaviour of police, themselves stressed to breaking point by massive budget cuts, and layoffs, all wondering if their jobs will be the next ones to arbitrarily be dropped, you have a powderkeg, and a lit fuse.

Interestingly, the more northern areas (We consider regions like Manchester to be "the south" even if they think of themselves as "north") have not seen rioting this time around. This seems largely due to our part of the country already having an "us vs them" mentality of hatred towards London, which we see as more of an invading foreign power, and having an almost nationalistic pride in our shared identity and in our cities, rather than nihilistically seeing no value at all in anything.
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Thank you, Amy, for saying what no one else did: that despite the despicable behavior of the rioters, and the fact that such action does nothing to advance the "cause" of those who riot (to the degree that they have a "cause"), the riots are definitely rooted in a socio-economic situation of deep alienation from society. Here in the United States, it has become the norm that ascending generations are worse off than their parents. The economic disparities in this country grow and grow. Young people face a future of temporary labor (what the French rightly call "precarious work") and increasing alienation and atomization. It's no wonder that any spark can lead to conflagration.

This is not to excuse rioters. Individual or group violence is a bankrupt approach to changing the world. The youth of England, just like the youth of the United States, could learn a thing or two from the serious side (i.e., not the Yippies) of the anti-Vietnam War movement and how it was organized, or how the students in France in 1968 united with trade unions and nearly brought down the DeGaulle government.
That?s all a socialist claptrap theory that absolves people of taking responsibility for their own actions. Poverty is no excuse for what happened during the riots.

The media has now started interviewing people that the media calls ?experts? on this. However unless one has experienced poverty then one can hardly be called an expert in how poor people will act. These ?experts? see things only through their own eyes and then imagine how they would act if they were in that situation and then extrapolate that to the poor.

I was born into poverty. I had an alcoholic father who used most of his money to feed his addiction. We were in dire straits before, but when my father died we were even worse off. Later when my mother remarried my step father wanted nothing to do with me and I was treated with indifference at best and open hostility at worst.

We were nowhere near to being considered middle class. We often didn?t have much to eat so to supplement our meals I went hunting and fishing every chance that I had which would be most weekend mornings and sometimes all day Saturday or Sunday. I would do this throughout the year. Depending on the season I would also go fishing or hunting in the evening. I certainly contributed a substantial amount to what we had to eat.

I started working at age thirteen and by the time I was sixteen I was working three part-time jobs as well as going to school.

All this wasn?t all that strange to me as most of my friends were also considered poor. There were distinctions made between my friends and me and the others we knew who would be considered middle class to affluent. Those from the affluent families would have nothing to do with us.

It has been suggested that the young people rioting and committing criminal acts see no hope of improving their lives because they can?t afford to go to university. However, none of my friends nor I ever went to university although many of us certainly wanted to go. University was very expensive and we simply could not afford it. There were very few scholarships available then and those always went to the ones that didn?t need them anyway. Instead my friends and I furthered our education by other means.

According to the ?experts? my friends and I should have been bitter at society and taken our revenge by robbing, looting, burning, destroying, etc. None of us went our rioting. We didn?t blame anyone else for the position that we were in or things that we couldn?t have. We didn?t go out looting, pillaging, burning, or destroying others property. We didn?t maim or kill people. Instead all of us worked hard and pulled ourselves out of poverty. Every one of my friends, from when I was young, and I are now considered middle class and most of us are quite well off. It was hard work and ethics that got us this far in life.
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Old 08-14-2011
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That?s all a socialist claptrap theory that absolves people of taking responsibility for their own actions. Poverty is no excuse for what happened during the riots.

The media has now started interviewing people that the media calls ?experts? on this. However unless one has experienced poverty then one can hardly be called an expert in how poor people will act. These ?experts? see things only through their own eyes and then imagine how they would act if they were in that situation and then extrapolate that to the poor.

I was born into poverty. I had an alcoholic father who used most of his money to feed his addiction. We were in dire straits before, but when my father died we were even worse off. Later when my mother remarried my step father wanted nothing to do with me and I was treated with indifference at best and open hostility at worst.

We were nowhere near to being considered middle class. We often didn?t have much to eat so to supplement our meals I went hunting and fishing every chance that I had which would be most weekend mornings and sometimes all day Saturday or Sunday. I would do this throughout the year. Depending on the season I would also go fishing or hunting in the evening. I certainly contributed a substantial amount to what we had to eat.

I started working at age thirteen and by the time I was sixteen I was working three part-time jobs as well as going to school.

All this wasn?t all that strange to me as most of my friends were also considered poor. There were distinctions made between my friends and me and the others we knew who would be considered middle class to affluent. Those from the affluent families would have nothing to do with us.

It has been suggested that the young people rioting and committing criminal acts see no hope of improving their lives because they can?t afford to go to university. However, none of my friends nor I ever went to university although many of us certainly wanted to go. University was very expensive and we simply could not afford it. There were very few scholarships available then and those always went to the ones that didn?t need them anyway. Instead my friends and I furthered our education by other means.

According to the ?experts? my friends and I should have been bitter at society and taken our revenge by robbing, looting, burning, destroying, etc. None of us went our rioting. We didn?t blame anyone else for the position that we were in or things that we couldn?t have. We didn?t go out looting, pillaging, burning, or destroying others property. We didn?t maim or kill people. Instead all of us worked hard and pulled ourselves out of poverty. Every one of my friends, from when I was young, and I are now considered middle class and most of us are quite well off. It was hard work and ethics that got us this far in life.
ila, this is not the first time that you have responded in this way to one of my posts. I will only say that what I wrote (what you call "socialist claptrap theory that absolves people of taking responsibility for their own actions") is not an excuse for the riots -- as I make clear. Rather, it is an explanation that one must guage without emotion. You are absolutely correct that "poverty is no excuse for what happened during the riots," but in many instances poverty -- especially URBAN poverty -- breeds alienation from society. This is a simple fact; whether it is your less urban experience is immaterial. Your very tough life growing up yielded a different outcome and a different person. The tough life growing up yields different results for different people.

By the way, when a country has a social contract with its citizenry that includes certain social safety net features and that contract is broken, it is not unexpected that some of the more desperate and alienated in society may respond violently. IT IS NO EXCUSE, just an explanation. You don't have to like it to recognize that it happens. And it is especially prevalent among youth who see the older generations as responsible for the breaking of the contract, or who see people with wealth and power at a level those youth cannot even imagine attaining as responsible.

Again, no excuses ... just analysis. When we analyze society and seek to find solutions to urgent problems, our own experiences should inform our analysis but our emotions must be checked at the door.
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Old 08-14-2011
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ila, this is not the first time that you have responded in this way to one of my posts. I will only say that what I wrote (what you call "socialist claptrap theory that absolves people of taking responsibility for their own actions") is not an excuse for the riots -- as I make clear. Rather, it is an explanation that one must guage without emotion. You are absolutely correct that "poverty is no excuse for what happened during the riots," but in many instances poverty -- especially URBAN poverty -- breeds alienation from society. This is a simple fact; whether it is your less urban experience is immaterial. Your very tough life growing up yielded a different outcome and a different person. The tough life growing up yields different results for different people.
I feel I can speak on this with some authority as I have experienced poverty first hand. This is not a theory for me, but was my reality at one time.

One of my purposes in my original post was to refute the opinion of experts who stated that all those growing up in poverty will eventually react in a way that we have seen in the past week in England. As can be seen in my original post I illustrated the fact that not everyone growing up poor will react with rioting, looting, arson, and killing.

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By the way, when a country has a social contract with its citizenry that includes certain social safety net features and that contract is broken, it is not unexpected that some of the more desperate and alienated in society may respond violently. IT IS NO EXCUSE, just an explanation. You don't have to like it to recognize that it happens. And it is especially prevalent among youth who see the older generations as responsible for the breaking of the contract, or who see people with wealth and power at a level those youth cannot even imagine attaining as responsible.
Perceived breaking of a non-existent social contract is, as you state, no excuse. The breakdown is in those that expect everything to be given to them without any effort being put forth on their own part. Most of those with material possessions did not have everything given to them. They worked for them. It is sloth, envy, and greed that the rioters use to justify their actions. Hard work has been a recipe for success in the past. There is no reason why the rioters cannot also follow that path.

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Again, no excuses ... just analysis. When we analyze society and seek to find solutions to urgent problems, our own experiences should inform our analysis but our emotions must be checked at the door.
Agreed.
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Old 08-14-2011
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Old 08-15-2011
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I feel I can speak on this with some authority as I have experienced poverty first hand. This is not a theory for me, but was my reality at one time.

One of my purposes in my original post was to refute the opinion of experts who stated that all those growing up in poverty will eventually react in a way that we have seen in the past week in England. As can be seen in my original post I illustrated the fact that not everyone growing up poor will react with rioting, looting, arson, and killing.
Any so-called "expert" who states that growing up in poverty results in someone eventually reacting in this way should be discounted not for her or his theories, but for the unscientific nature of the conclusion. After all, a propensity to riot is not something with which a person is born. Socio-environmental conditions are what lead people to such action, right or wrong, and the idea that "all those" who grow up in poverty will eventually engage in such action is preposterous.



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Perceived breaking of a non-existent social contract is, as you state, no excuse. The breakdown is in those that expect everything to be given to them without any effort being put forth on their own part. Most of those with material possessions did not have everything given to them. They worked for them. It is sloth, envy, and greed that the rioters use to justify their actions. Hard work has been a recipe for success in the past. There is no reason why the rioters cannot also follow that path.
The social contract is not, as you write, "non-existent." Again, irrespective of how one analyzes the reason for the riots, the existence of the social contract must be recognized as a given. In Britain, a social safety net has existed. As it is dismantled, the dynamic in society changes. Unless society as a whole renegotiates the contract or agrees to its dissolution, it is being "broken."

In the United States, the safety net components cynically dubbed "entitlements" by politicians who wish to eliminate them are part of a social contract.
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During the great depression (1930s), thousands of people were out of work and additional thousands of poor farmers lost their farms in the midwest dust storms. It was a terrible time for a lot of people. Social services were practically nonexistent. Yet, there was little violence, people suffered starved and died without help. They didn't burn down their neighborhoods, they looked for work.
The urban youth in the big cities that have grown up disenfranchised from the working society seem become sociopathic and lash out, setting fires and looting. They have no feeling of responsibility to a society that ignores them.
Do the social services that we have today have something to do with the urban youth problem or is it simply the lack of opportunity to make a living as part of the society?
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During the great depression (1930s), thousands of people were out of work and additional thousands of poor farmers lost their farms in the midwest dust storms. It was a terrible time for a lot of people. Social services were practically nonexistent. Yet, there was little violence, people suffered starved and died without help. They didn't burn down their neighborhoods, they looked for work.
The urban youth in the big cities that have grown up disenfranchised from the working society seem become sociopathic and lash out, setting fires and looting. They have no feeling of responsibility to a society that ignores them.
Do the social services that we have today have something to do with the urban youth problem or is it simply the lack of opportunity to make a living as part of the society?
Disenfranchisement (or more accurately, alienation) from "working society" is a powerful motivator for all manner of terrible behavior. Just as the value of a human life may diminish to near zero to the urban youth who experiences gang murder all around him as he grows up, so too do those who are marginalized in society, and who feel little opportunity for success, develop a sense of no responsibility to that society. It is not an excuse ... just a fact.

Unfortunately, and despite what ila has written above (see our earlier exchange in this thread), it is not a simple matter of working hard to pull one's self out of poverty. The reason we have the so-called "working poor" is because of the structural problem of a society that is based on labor exploitation. If someone can work hard all his life and never get out of poverty, is it the person's fault alone? I think not.
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Another aspect of this issue appeared during the Katerina disaster. Looting was a major problem but also was the lack of community. People stood around doing nothing to help. It was necessary to bring in hundreds of outside people to deal with the situation. Why didn't the residents of New Orleans band together to do something? Of course outside aid was necessary, the place was flooded. Often in cases of disaster we see people banding together to aid others (earthquakes, ect), there seemed to be little of that during Katrina. Was it because these people were so alienated and disconnected that they had no idea how to get organized?
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During the great depression (1930s), thousands of people were out of work and additional thousands of poor farmers lost their farms in the midwest dust storms. It was a terrible time for a lot of people. Social services were practically nonexistent. Yet, there was little violence, people suffered starved and died without help. They didn't burn down their neighborhoods, they looked for work.
Whuuu????

Another case of 'back in the good old days' syndrome. People did riot during the depression, you could say they didn't riot much, but on a historical scale, these current riots were not much of a riot.
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Whuuu????

Another case of 'back in the good old days' syndrome. People did riot during the depression, you could say they didn't riot much, but on a historical scale, these current riots were not much of a riot.
Certainly there was lots of unrest particularly in the labor unions. The National Guard in California brought in tanks to help quell longshoreman strikes.
Also there was a huge march on Washington by veterans demanding funds due them.
In the 30s farming was still a big deal and many city dwellers had family still on the farm. This helped tide over a lot of unemployed city dwellers.

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During the great depression (1930s), thousands of people were out of work and additional thousands of poor farmers lost their farms in the midwest dust storms. It was a terrible time for a lot of people. Social services were practically nonexistent. Yet, there was little violence, people suffered starved and died without help. They didn't burn down their neighborhoods, they looked for work.
Americans are quite deliberately NOT taught the true and full history of the Depression period. There was brutal repression by the forces of the government to put down labor unions, unemployed unions, political action on the left, and so on. The various aspects of the "New Deal" -- Social Security, unemployment insurance, and so on -- were enacted precisely because the ruling wealthy, or at least the segment that won the argument, recognized that giving up a bit of profit was preferable to the alternative, which was the very real possibility of social revolution in the United States and an end to all their profit.
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Americans are quite deliberately NOT taught the true and full history of the Depression period. There was brutal repression by the forces of the government to put down labor unions, unemployed unions, political action on the left, and so on. The various aspects of the "New Deal" -- Social Security, unemployment insurance, and so on -- were enacted precisely because the ruling wealthy, or at least the segment that won the argument, recognized that giving up a bit of profit was preferable to the alternative, which was the very real possibility of social revolution in the United States and an end to all their profit.
They only did this after their attempt to stage a coup, that failed to garner the military support, they needed to get FDR out of office.
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Originally Posted by randolph View Post
They only did this after their attempt to stage a coup, that failed to garner the military support, they needed to get FDR out of office.
Are you referring to the 1933 "Business Plot" that was to have been led by Smedley Butler of the Marine Corps, and about which he later testified about to a Congressional committee. While I am not one to shrink in the face of allegations of fascist plots in the United States, this particular one is of some historical dispute, at the minimum. I would be hesitant, if I were you, to state something so definitive about it as you have in your one-line post.
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Old 08-15-2011
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Are you referring to the 1933 "Business Plot" that was to have been led by Smedley Butler of the Marine Corps, and about which he later testified about to a Congressional committee. While I am not one to shrink in the face of allegations of fascist plots in the United States, this particular one is of some historical dispute, at the minimum. I would be hesitant, if I were you, to state something so definitive about it as you have in your one-line post.
the following is from Wikipedia.
Quote:
In November 1934, Butler told the committee that a group of businessmen, saying they were backed by a private army of 500,000 ex-soldiers and others, intended to establish a fascist dictatorship. Butler had been asked to lead it, he said, by Gerald P. MacGuire, a bond salesman with Grayson M?P Murphy & Co. The New York Times reported that Butler had told friends that General Hugh S. Johnson, a former official with the National Recovery Administration, was to be installed as dictator. Butler said MacGuire had told him the attempted coup was backed by three million dollars, and that the 500,000 men were probably to be assembled in Washington, D.C. the following year. All the parties alleged to be involved, including Johnson, said there was no truth in the story, calling it a joke and a fantasy.[56]
In its report, the committee stated that it was unable to confirm Butler's statements other than the proposal from MacGuire, which it considered more or less confirmed by MacGuire's European reports.[57] No prosecutions or further investigations followed, and historians have questioned whether or not a coup was actually close to execution, although most agree that some sort of "wild scheme" was contemplated and discussed.[58][59][60][61] The news media initially dismissed the plot, with a New York Times editorial characterizing it as a "gigantic hoax".[62] When the committee's final report was released, the Times said the committee "purported to report that a two-month investigation had convinced it that General Butler's story of a Fascist march on Washington was alarmingly true" and "... also alleged that definite proof had been found that the much publicized Fascist march on Washington, which was to have been led by Major. Gen. Smedley D. Butler, retired, according to testimony at a hearing, was actually contemplated".[63]
The McCormack-Dickstein Committee confirmed some of Butler's accusations in its final report. "In the last few weeks of the committee's official life it received evidence showing that certain persons had made an attempt to establish a fascist organization in this country...There is no question that these attempts were discussed, were planned, and might have been placed in execution when and if the financial backers deemed it expedient."
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Old 08-15-2011
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the following is from Wikipedia.
I am well aware of the Wikipedia entry. I stand by my suggestion not to state the existence of the Business Plot with such certainty, as reputable historians have called such certainty into reasonable question.

Its existence or non-existence doesn't change the basic premise of my post that prompted you to mention the Business Plot.
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Old 08-15-2011
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Additional information on the plot rumors to oust FDR.

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The American Liberty League
By Richard Sanders, Editor, Press for Conversion! Lurking in the background behind the plot to oust FDR was the American Liberty League, a pro-business think-tank and ultra-right wing lobby group. Its treasurer was Jerry MacGuire?s boss, Grayson Murphy, a leading J.P. Morgan broker. One of its top donors was Robert Clark, who also tried to recruit General Smedley Butler into the conspiracy to oust President Franklin D. Roosevelt.
The origins of the League were very closely tied to an earlier organization of multi-millionaires, motivated entirely by greed and self-interest, that concerned itself with repealing the alcohol prohibition laws, The Association Against the Prohibition Amendment.
General Butler testified to the MacCormack-Dickstein Committee that when he asked whether anything was ?stirring? with regards to Jerry MacGuire?s wealthy backers? plans for a ?superorganization? to coordinate the coup against FDR, MacGuire predicted the American Liberty League?s emergence, saying: ?Yes, you watch; in two or three weeks you will see it come out in the paper. There will be big fellows in it. This is to be the background of it.?
Jules Archer, in The Plot to Seize the White House (1976), said the ?link between the conspiracy and the powerful interests?in the background? was ?the most significant? part of Butler?s testimony. However, MacGuire?s foreknowledge of the League and its links to the fascist plot were deleted from the Committee?s published report.
It's an interesting story. Could it happen now if the economy fails to recover? So far the rich are just getting richer so why should they want to kick out Obama?
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Old 08-15-2011
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Any so-called "expert" who states that growing up in poverty results in someone eventually reacting in this way should be discounted not for her or his theories, but for the unscientific nature of the conclusion. After all, a propensity to riot is not something with which a person is born. Socio-environmental conditions are what lead people to such action, right or wrong, and the idea that "all those" who grow up in poverty will eventually engage in such action is preposterous.
That was what I was saying in my first post.

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The social contract is not, as you write, "non-existent." Again, irrespective of how one analyzes the reason for the riots, the existence of the social contract must be recognized as a given. In Britain, a social safety net has existed. As it is dismantled, the dynamic in society changes. Unless society as a whole renegotiates the contract or agrees to its dissolution, it is being "broken."

In the United States, the safety net components cynically dubbed "entitlements" by politicians who wish to eliminate them are part of a social contract.
I still say the social contract is non-existent. Every program run by any government is paid for through taxes. Governments do not create money they only redistribute what is taken in taxes. The government takes in money (from me) and later gives it back. The government did not create any program out of benevolence. Programs were created by governments in the hopes that they will be retain power because it looks like they are doing something for nothing. Therefore there is no social contract.
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Old 08-15-2011
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Default maybe there is a contract

Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan .

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.
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Old 08-15-2011
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Originally Posted by franalexes View Post
Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan .

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.
True enough, Congress makes the decisions, however, we elect them. I would suggest the budget is in the red because we want all the goodies the government can provide with the ultimate credit card.

Question: Can the government keep the voters happy on a balanced budget?
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Old 08-16-2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by franalexes View Post
Politicians are the only people in the world who create problems and then campaign against them.

Have you ever wondered, if both the Democrats and the Republicans are against deficits, WHY do we have deficits?

Have you ever wondered, if all the politicians are against inflation and high taxes, WHY do we have inflation and high taxes?

You and I don't write the tax code, Congress does.

You and I don't set fiscal policy, Congress does.

If the tax code is unfair, it's because they want it unfair.

If the budget is in the red, it's because they want it in the red.

If the Army & Marines are in Iraq and Afghanistan it's because they want them in Iraq and Afghanistan .

If they do not receive social security but are on an elite retirement plan not available to the people, it's because they want it that way.

There are no insoluble government problems.
Fran,
you are so spot on, and this post is awesome.

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