Sunday Musings: I want a debate!

[schiff]

So I saw this Law & Order SVU episode the other day and I was really disturbed by the subject matter that it dealt with. The antagonists were wealthy individuals traveling down to South America, bringing children back to the states and forging false adoption papers so that they could keep the children in their home to use them as sexual objects. They were part of the organization (and much to my horror this really exists) called NAMBLA. I don't think I need to go into detail to explain the acronym; regardless, I couldn't finish watching the episode because I was too freaked out by it. Although I did retain a very important point from one of the detectives: members of the NAMBLA organization are allowed to distribute literature glorifying this behavior with children because of their first amendment right. And I must say I am thankful that we have such a just system such as this in the United States, for better or for worse, but I'm kind of scared that the first amendment right has been manipulated more and more as time has gone by. Have you all heard about the fact that employers have the right to deny a person employment if the applicant's sexual orientation or cultural background is in contradiction to the employer's personal beliefs? I mean this might seem like a shocking analogy, but how is that any different than sexually abusing a boy barely even 13 years old? Think about it: I consider it Americans denying other Americans opportunities and experiences to live life happily and prosperously while being healthy in terms of body, heart and mind. What the applicant is denied is the opportunity to work hard and make money like every other self-sufficient adult in a first-world economy and denied the experience of being accepted as a rational-thinking human being that shares so much more similarities to those who want to judge and degrade that person in size of their brain rubicon than culture. What the child is denied is the opportunity to grow up being instilled with values and is denied the experience of learning how disenchating the world becomes the older you get at a time that's appropriate for that child just because of a selfish sexual fantasy that men like the antagonists in the episode impose on them. Why do people believe that this kind of manipulation of the first amendment is just??? The fundamental difference is what is seen when you compare humans to our ancestors: humans have the advantage over apes because not only can we hide the banana behind our back, but we can lie about it. Such could be considered the difference between freedom of speech and freedom to do dumb human bullshit. Freedom of speech is saying: I'm part of an ancient religion stuck in eternal neotony and I believe that abortion is wrong. Dumb human bullshit is different: I'm too insecure and afraid of the world to be able to deal with diversity so I'm going to kill and abortion doctor. The former is lying about the banana while the latter is trying to hide it. And that's my Sunday musing!

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by schiff

I'm kind of scared that the first amendment right has been manipulated more and more as time has gone by. Have you all heard about the fact that employers have the right to deny a person employment if the applicant's sexual orientation or cultural background is in contradiction to the employer's personal beliefs? I mean this might seem like a shocking analogy, but how is that any different than sexually abusing a boy barely even 13 years old?

That's apples and oranges. You cannot compare sexually abusing a 13 year old boy with not hiring a gay person. As for an employer not wanting to hire a gay person, would you say they are exercising their freedom of speech? I'm for rights. Not straight rights, gay rights, white rights or colored rights, just rights. Rights should be applied equally. Just because someone is a minority does not give them more rights than anyone else. Otherwise you will be trading one form of discrimination for another.

Originally Posted by schiff

Think about it: I consider it Americans denying other Americans opportunities and experiences to live life happily and prosperously while being healthy in terms of body, heart and mind.

So the inalienable rights are now Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness and Prosperity now? And yes, you can be happy without necessarily being prosperous.

Originally Posted by schiff

What [if] the applicant is denied is the opportunity to work hard and make money like every other self-sufficient adult in a first-world economy and denied the experience of being accepted as a rational-thinking human being that shares so much more similarities to those who want to judge and degrade that person in size of their brain rubicon than culture.

I don't understand. Why should the fact that someone is gay keep them from getting a job? My employer and coworkers have no idea if I'm straight, gay or bi, and it isn't any of their business anyway.

Originally Posted by schiff

What [if] the child is denied is the opportunity to grow up being instilled with values and is denied the experience of learning how disenchating the world becomes the older you get at a time that's appropriate for that child just because of a selfish sexual fantasy that men like the antagonists in the episode impose on them.

I didn't see the episode, so I would need more details to comment. But those that abused the child should definitely be prosecuted.

Originally Posted by schiff

The fundamental difference is what is seen when you compare humans to our ancestors: humans have the advantage over apes because not only can we hide the banana behind our back, but we can lie about it. Such could be considered the difference between freedom of speech and freedom to do dumb human bullshit.

Freedom does include the freedom to be an idiot - as long as you're not breaking any other laws. Being an idiot has consequences. So a free society will learn to be responsible for their actions because others in society are free to enact consequences.

Originally Posted by schiff

Freedom of speech is saying: I'm part of an ancient religion stuck in eternal neotony and I believe that abortion is wrong. Dumb human bullshit is different: I'm too insecure and afraid of the world to be able to deal with diversity so I'm going to kill and abortion doctor. The former is lying about the banana while the latter is trying to hide it. And that's my Sunday musing!

Killing an abortion doctor is not dumb human bullshit. That's murder. It doesn't even need to be classified as a hate crime. It's murder and he should be executed. You do see the difference between speaking your mind and killing someone don't you? Committing murder obviously classifies their action as something other than free speech.

[Bionca]

"I don't understand. Why should the fact that someone is gay keep them from getting a job? My employer and coworkers have no idea if I'm straight, gay or bi, and it isn't any of their business anyway."

Ever talked about your weekend with a co-worker? Ever had a holiday party with a company? Ever meet work friends socially?

Privilege allows one to frame the world in ways that allow for inequality to become invisible while also making the privileges of the dominant group see the default or the norm while painting the inequalities as trivial or easily managed by the disenfranchised.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Ever talked about your weekend with a co-worker? Ever had a holiday party with a company? Ever meet work friends socially?

Do you think mandating that companies hire you will make those situations any less awkward?

[runround04]

Free speech is free speech, no matter who likes it, dislikes it. But yeah, somethings dont deserve that right, IMO

[schiff]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

That's apples and oranges. You cannot compare sexually abusing a 13 year old boy with not hiring a gay person. As for an employer not wanting to hire a gay person, would you say they are exercising their freedom of speech? I'm for rights. Not straight rights, gay rights, white rights or colored rights, just rights. Rights should be applied equally. Just because someone is a minority does not give them more rights than anyone else. Otherwise you will be trading one form of discrimination for another.

Rights being applied equally includes hiring a qualified, hard-working, well-deserving candidate for any employment position. That's the premise that I was basing my argument on and so I said nothing of giving more opportunities for minorities to gain access to these positions. Furthermore, my analogy of the insanity of attempting to justify having sex with a prepubescent child to the insanity of attempting to justify discrimination based upon a medieval, pre-scientific ideology is a bit extreme, but the point being that both of these movements do so much more to divide the masses instead of allowing individuals to express what's going on inside their minds safely and openly. I'm absolutely down with the idea of pedophiles giving out material in public explaining their position and why, and I'm also down with Christians spouting out the word of God bullshit proving more and more that Christianity is a religion that shall be stuck in eternal neoteny. I love this idea, and I also love the idea that I can approach these people and tell them they obviously need to go back and review a little bit about 1 + 1 = 2 and come back to reality because neither one of those ideologies give a correct perception of how the world really works, especially in first-world societies.

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

So the inalienable rights are now Life, Liberty, the Pursuit of Happiness and Prosperity now? And yes, you can be happy without necessarily being prosperous.

Come on now, be a little poetic my dude. Could not the pursuit of happiness be interchangeable with the pursuit of prosperity? A healthy mind and body are scientifically proven to be key elements of human wellness and happiness, it's our right to enjoy both of these, and are not these opportunities taken away in the two previous examples? Is this not the simplest example of prosperity???

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I don't understand. Why should the fact that someone is gay keep them from getting a job? My employer and coworkers have no idea if I'm straight, gay or bi, and it isn't any of their business anyway.

I thought I already concluded that I don't believe sexual orientation, or any other attribute of a person, should serve as a barrier for employment....?

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Freedom does include the freedom to be an idiot - as long as you're not breaking any other laws. Being an idiot has consequences. So a free society will learn to be responsible for their actions because others in society are free to enact consequences.

Yeah but how the hell do you expect idiots to face the consequences of their actions? Considering the welfare system in this country, there are too many cases of individuals abusing it. So many high school drop outs are not getting jobs and living off of government-provided welfare so they don't have the face the consequences of the fact that they have done NOTHING to create financial stability for themselves. I'll find facts to support that later, but anyway, being an idiot is a disservice to the progressions made by Earthly organisms throughout all of natural history from basic survival and hunting techniques all the way to the notion that the extension of the body through weapons creates a safer and more effective means of garnering resources to sustain energy. The fact of the matter is that human beings have already reached the zenith of cerebral rubicon size and the proliferation of individuals making decisions based upon facts that are purely tangible knowledge instead of logic or reason means that we as a whole are going to get more and more stupid. How the hell do you expect the First Amendment to be protected if the American public would rather play beer pong, watch television or smoke pot all day instead of reading and learning?

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Killing an abortion doctor is not dumb human bullshit. That's murder. It doesn't even need to be classified as a hate crime. It's murder and he should be executed. You do see the difference between speaking your mind and killing someone don't you? Committing murder obviously classifies their action as something other than free speech.

It's dumb human bullshit. Murder is dumb human bullshit. Dumb humans have this ridiculous idea that murdering an individual embodying the essence of what their philosophy is working against is justified in the name of their ideology. Small animals kill plant life in order to sustain energy. Larger animals kill small animals in order to sustain energy. Dumb humans kill each other because they aren't that much smarter than Daniel Sickles. To conclude, the way in which things operate in a first-world society implicitly require that if you can't express your point of view in civilized and intelligent matter, you should either keep your opinions to yourself or find a different hobby.

-Schiff

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by schiff

Rights being applied equally includes hiring a qualified, hard-working, well-deserving candidate for any employment position. That's the premise that I was basing my argument on and so I said nothing of giving more opportunities for minorities to gain access to these positions.

Ideally, yes it would be great if a qualified person, regardless of race, color, sexual orientation, gender, could be considered equally along with any other qualified people for a position. I haven't seen yet how this can be done well. Affirmative action is not a solution. If questions about race, orientation and gender could be left off an application and resumes, that would probably work... at least until the employer receives a resume from Laquicia. But again, I feel if a chinese restaurant owner believes that having an all oriental staff is the way to go, then that's his right.

Originally Posted by schiff

Come on now, be a little poetic my dude. Could not the pursuit of happiness be interchangeable with the pursuit of prosperity? A healthy mind and body are scientifically proven to be key elements of human wellness and happiness, it's our right to enjoy both of these, and are not these opportunities taken away in the two previous examples? Is this not the simplest example of prosperity???

I am not poetic.
Prosperous - a: marked by success or economic well-being b: enjoying vigorous and healthy growth

Either definition would be great, but I don't believe it's the government's responsibility to ensure that everyone of its citizens is prosperous. That doesn't seem practical without lowering the bar on how prosperous the population as a whole can be.

Originally Posted by schiff

Yeah but how the hell do you expect idiots to face the consequences of their actions?

They become outcasts.

Originally Posted by schiff

Considering the welfare system in this country, there are too many cases of individuals abusing it. So many high school drop outs are not getting jobs and living off of government-provided welfare so they don't have the face the consequences of the fact that they have done NOTHING to create financial stability for themselves.

I agree that we should get rid of welfare.

Originally Posted by schiff

The fact of the matter is that human beings have already reached the zenith of cerebral rubicon size and the proliferation of individuals making decisions based upon facts that are purely tangible knowledge instead of logic or reason means that we as a whole are going to get more and more stupid.

If rubicon refers to crossing a point of no turning back, and you're calling that line the zenith of cerebral size, then that would imply that we are stuck at our maximum potential and not able to go back to where we were. So how would we be getting more and more stupid? Please clarify. I don't believe we are at our zenith anyway. There is plenty of worthless mental baggage that we can discard, like religion and other superstitions, discrimination and other crap that would increase our potential.

Originally Posted by schiff

How the hell do you expect the First Amendment to be protected if the American public would rather play beer pong, watch television or smoke pot all day instead of reading and learning?

How is doing any of that denying anyone their right to free speech?

Originally Posted by schiff

It's dumb human bullshit. Murder is dumb human bullshit. Dumb humans have this ridiculous idea that murdering an individual embodying the essence of what their philosophy is working against is justified in the name of their ideology.

Some ideologies threaten others, and they will not be reasoned with. People like Hitler, Bin Laden and others need killlin.

Originally Posted by schiff

Small animals kill plant life in order to sustain energy. Larger animals kill small animals in order to sustain energy. Dumb humans kill each other because they aren't that much smarter than Daniel Sickles. To conclude, the way in which things operate in a first-world society implicitly require that if you can't express your point of view in civilized and intelligent matter, you should either keep your opinions to yourself or find a different hobby.

-Schiff

Again, the dumb humans who kill over differences of opinion can be shown to the death chamber. For all others, feel free to speak your mind, and yes, be civil about it.

[schiff]

Update from Schiff: TracyCoxx, you run one hell of a good debate and argument! Very respectable points you've made, but you've gotta assume I'm going to argue each point you've made.... tomorrow morning after beer thirty had ended. Until then, I love you all!
-Schiff