Are We an Ignored Minority?

[tgsexual]

There is a lot of talk on forums about what we perceive ourselves to be. By we, I mean the group of people who have a sexual preference for trangendered male-to-female persons.

Are we gay, straight, fetishists? Where do we fit into the LGBT spectrum? It seems we don't have a seat at that table, or any other table. There isn't even a name for us. Should we have one? If so, what?

Hermosexuals? TGsexuals? Suggestions?

We suffer prejudice as do lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders, yet no one seems to be acting in our defense, not directly. There seems to be no campaign if help people understand us.

If anything, it seems common for gays to look down on us, like we're closeted gays, many others see us as some kind of perverts or desperados, who can't find a real woman to love us, and tragicly, even some transgender people see us as sexual deviates, or unreliable lovers or incapable of offering them real acceptance.

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that our only visible communities seem to exist in internet pornland. If we judged straight men on the discussions they have on internet porn forums I think we'd also walk away with a somewhat less rosy view of what straight men are like.

Some might say that more labels lead to more incorrect sterotypes of what is really a vast continuum of sexual preference characteristics, but if we're to be accepted, we must be able to present ourselves in a way that people can understand and respect, and to start to do that, we need an umbrella under which to gather, so that we can begin to be recognized and understood.

We may even need it, to begin to understand ourselves, and where each of us fits into, or how we vary to certain extents, within that umbrella.

While we remain a people of mystery, widely scorned or mocked, then there will remain a great barrier between the transgendered and those who seek to love them. What good is merely focusing on the acceptance of transgenders while those partners they long for, are afraid to come out, for fear of being harshly judged and misunderstood.

Is it time for a new movement to evolve? One that represents us and adds us to the hub of the wheel of diversity? A movement that identifies and spreads our differences and commonalities with other human conditions? A movement that has a voice that represents our finest attributes, our affection, our compassion, our struggle to be accepted for what we are and who we love.

Excuse me if my rant is long winded or boring, I'd just like to stimulate some discussion on these issues with some like minds.

TGsexual.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by tgsexual

There is a lot of talk on forums about what we perceive ourselves to be. By we, I mean the group of people who have a sexual preference for trangendered male-to-female persons.

Are we gay, straight, fetishists? Where do we fit into the LGBT spectrum? It seems we don't have a seat at that table, or any other table. There isn't even a name for us. Should we have one? If so, what?

Hermosexuals? TGsexuals? Suggestions?

We suffer prejudice as do lesbians, gays, bisexuals and transgenders, yet no one seems to be acting in our defense, not directly. There seems to be no campaign if help people understand us.

If anything, it seems common for gays to look down on us, like we're closeted gays, many others see us as some kind of perverts or desperados, who can't find a real woman to love us, and tragicly, even some transgender people see us as sexual deviates, or unreliable lovers or incapable of offering them real acceptance.

It probably has a lot to do with the fact that our only visible communities seem to exist in internet pornland. If we judged straight men on the discussions they have on internet porn forums I think we'd also walk away with a somewhat less rosy view of what straight men are like.

Some might say that more labels lead to more incorrect sterotypes of what is really a vast continuum of sexual preference characteristics, but if we're to be accepted, we must be able to present ourselves in a way that people can understand and respect, and to start to do that, we need an umbrella under which to gather, so that we can begin to be recognized and understood.

We may even need it, to begin to understand ourselves, and where each of us fits into, or how we vary to certain extents, within that umbrella.

While we remain a people of mystery, widely scorned or mocked, then there will remain a great barrier between the transgendered and those who seek to love them. What good is merely focusing on the acceptance of transgenders while those partners they long for, are afraid to come out, for fear of being harshly judged and misunderstood.

Is it time for a new movement to evolve? One that represents us and adds us to the hub of the wheel of diversity? A movement that identifies and spreads our differences and commonalities with other human conditions? A movement that has a voice that represents our finest attributes, our affection, our compassion, our struggle to be accepted for what we are and who we love.

Excuse me if my rant is long winded or boring, I'd just like to stimulate some discussion on these issues with some like minds.

TGsexual.

You bet we're alone and being scorned and laughed at... and in the end so what? The pain we as guys-like-us who like girls-like-them endure is peanuts compared to the ridicule trans*people meet everyday.

Just be proud and strong and you'll see that you will eventually be met with respect once the prudes realize that you cannot be changed.

They'll actually learn a thing or three... maybe...

So don't put much thought into what the prudes have to say. Just smile at them, ridicule them a bit and if they don't get the point, then leave them and go home to your wonderful trans*woman and laugh it out with her. Together with her your strenght is a 1000-fold! Mine is!

H

[charlietwobeans]

I agree that we are an unrecognized minority, but I don't know if "yet another movement or yet another label" is going to solve anything. I think it comes over time - maybe not for our lifetime, but hopefully for the next generation.

[tgsexual]

By the way, I've found that the terms Gynemimetophilia and Gynandromorphophilia have been coined to describe people who are attracted to transwomen.

We may refer to ourselves as Gynandromorphophiles and to transwomen as Gynandromorphs.

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

You bet we're alone and being scorned and laughed at... and in the end so what? The pain we as guys-like-us who like girls-like-them endure is peanuts compared to the ridicule trans*people meet everyday.

Just be proud and strong and you'll see that you will eventually be met with respect once the prudes realize that you cannot be changed.

They'll actually learn a thing or three... maybe...

So don't put much thought into what the prudes have to say. Just smile at them, ridicule them a bit and if they don't get the point, then leave them and go home to your wonderful trans*woman and laugh it out with her. Together with her your strenght is a 1000-fold! Mine is!

H

Thanks H,
I know exactly what you mean, though it took a while to get to that point. I'm very happy and comfortable in a relationship also, despite the odd awkward situation.

I also agree that transwomen go through a lot more than we have to, but I still think it's a good thing for us to both understand ourselves and our obstacles and how to overcome them. And it would help if the wider community had a more respectful understanding.

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by charlietwobeans

I agree that we are an unrecognized minority, but I don't know if "yet another movement or yet another label" is going to solve anything. I think it comes over time - maybe not for our lifetime, but hopefully for the next generation.

I get what you're saying re another label, but sometimes a label seems necessary to:
1. Have a name / title under which to operate as a group and
2. To allow recognition of a group, upon which some understanding may be built.

Currently, where does one go if they want information on 'who they are' if they are attracted to transwomen? To porn based chatrooms? Valuable yes, but perfectly suited? No.

Where would a journalist go to, to get an opinion from or about transwomen admirers? The LGBT?

I also think change will be a long time coming, but it will take forever if their isn't a insightful or well considered voice representing us. Our reputation is more likely to be formed by those who object to us, with neary a whimper of complaint.

That said, all thoughts are welcomed. Appreciate the feedback.

[The_Void]

Originally Posted by tgsexual

By the way, I've found that the terms Gynemimetophilia and Gynandromorphophilia have been coined to describe people who are attracted to transwomen.

We may refer to ourselves as Gynandromorphophiles and to transwomen as Gynandromorphs.

The suffix "philia" makes it sound like a perversion, like paedophilia or necrophilia.

To be honest, I have no idea of how to describe this type of attraction. Transwomen are just like genetic women emotionally, therefore attraction to transwomen must be a physical thing, so that would make males here hetero-emotional, but Gynandromorphosexual.

I don't have this problem, I identify as pansexual (publicly I identify as bi, people have enough trouble understanding bisexuality, I am met with blank faces if I mention pansexuality).

[ila]

Originally Posted by tgsexual

.......Are we gay, straight, fetishists? Where do we fit into the LGBT spectrum? It seems we don't have a seat at that table, or any other table. There isn't even a name for us. Should we have one? If so, what?

Hermosexuals? TGsexuals? Suggestions?

This topic comes up on here every so often. Frankly I don't see what all the fuss is about coming up with a name or a term. I would rather be referred to a a man if someone really wants to come up with a term for me. I don't really care what terms anyone else wants to call me because if I don't like the term I just won't pay attention to it.

There is however, one thing I don't like to be called - and that's late for free beer.:D

i think,cause it's not "normal" for the normal "people" << they(the world wide goverments and in the school too < of course) should be started to say" we haven't not only 2 gender,but also 3" << for me is this for a long time clear..

[Bionca]

Nice to see this post. I have posted a few topics on this subject and I have lots of thoughts about this too.

I think that guys who date/love/fuck trans women get lots of mixed messages and as a result play into some not-so-great behaviors. This just reinforces to trans women that guys are not safe/can't be trusted/ will bail as soon as stuff gets complicated/ are always looking to "trade up". Not all by any means, but enough that generalizations are easy to make.

From my perspective as a trans woman, I just don't see much support or real attempt at understanding what it is we have going on in our lives and how some pretty basic stuff can be complicated.

I was lucky in that my first bf was older by 10 years and had been with a couple Tgs before. On the up side, he was able to put me in contact with some great gals who helped guide me through those first awkward years. He made enough money that I could save all my money to get surgeries and hormones and stuff.

He also screwed most every one of my friends. He insisted that I be completely "stealth" with all of his friends and family and co-workers. To the point I was pretty neurotic when in public incse I got clocked. God forbid if I coughed, cleared my throat, laughed, or sneezed - all of those were (to him) opportunities for (HIS) shame. Eventually, after 7 years, he decided he wanted to be a dad after getting someone pregnant and we broke up.

I've also had no shortage of rotten dates, broken dates, and violent dates. But I have also met some really terrific guys who seem pretty genuine. Of these guys there is a real desire to help support trans women - but none of them really have a place to talk about that. There isn't a "community" much less a term to apply. If something can't be named, does it really exist?

[Bionca]

obviously you exit - and you have names: Homo, Closet-Case, Admirer, and Chaser. Do these accurately describe you? Do these describe what you guys want to be?

"Admirer"and "Chaser" seem to be popular within the "scene", but they are not particularly positive.

Admirer: Guys looking from afar, and not really participating OR Night-time visitors who show up when the wife is away.

Chaser: A guy actively looking and "chasing" any old trans woman, always on the hunt for that elusive fantasy trans - and willing to "trade up".

You bring up a very good point about the whys men are reluctant to be open about their attractions. Trans people face the same issues. I hear guys lamenting "If only society was different, I'd be free to explore/date/introduce". But it really doesn't progress from there. Nothing gets better just because.

*This is where I get in trouble*

This opinion is colored by my past experiences and observations and should only be taken in that light. Trans women don't have the luxury of being angsty about this for very long. We live in a world that wants to ignore us at best destroy us more often. We don't have an out, we can't break up with ourselves. We can't tell our friends we were drunk/confused/deceived.

While we are all impacted to one degree or another by social, legal, and economic issues related to being and dating trans - I don't see many men stepping up to make it better. I know plenty of trans men and women doing lots of hard work, I see plenty of cis women who are dating trans men and women (Helen Boyd for example) being open and honest and working with us to make things easier. I know a handful of men who do much more than wish it wasn't so hard.

There has to be a solution. Men have to be a part.

[rockabilly]

I dont care for labels myself. I am a human being first and foremost , i have feelings and desires the same as every human since the beginning of civilization. I love m2f tg and i dont see anything wrong w/ that. If other humans have a problem w/ it than that is their hangup not mine.

[Bionca]

I have been EXTREMELY lucky in that I have never had to do sex work. I was able to get my degree and use it helping trans kids and GLB youth in Chicago. Then I was able to get a job in a supportive company. Even so, we have had some bouts regarding use of the bathroom. Also, I was born in a state that will not change my birth certificate no matter what I do - my documentation will always be miss-matched (Insurance card with and drivers license say "F", Passport and Social Security say "M").

However, you are absolutely correct. Finding mainstream employment is VERY hard. One study in San Francisco shows that Trans women on average have BA or higher degree and make less than $20K/ year. So, even when employed many TGs need to subsidize their income in less legal ways. Couple that with insurance (when you can get it) that won't pay for any trans-related care and you have a system that creates sex workers and keeps them there. It's not like you can use your former years as an escort to land that sweet job at IBM.

This is one of those areas where allies are critical in a political movement. There is legislation in the US Senate (passed the House already) that will make it illegal to use a persons sexual orientation or gender identity to deny them employment. While it won't fix anything, it will at least make a company come up with an actual valid reason not to hire someone (or more likely to fire someone) for being trans.

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I think that guys who date/love/fuck trans women get lots of mixed messages and as a result play into some not-so-great behaviors.


If something can't be named, does it really exist?

BIONCA:

Everything exists until we find it, and try to communicate without finger pointing and grunting!

I think most of the guys on this site have never dated, loved or fucked trans women!


What say you?


Piece,


TAL

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by bi0mech81

the vast majority of guys who are attracted towards TGs see them only as sex objects/toys, drives most TG women towards prostitution/escorting, and/or entering the adult entertainment industry.

BTW: Thanks to you and others for the great feedback and sharing some enthusiasm for the development of a community that may assist transwomen lovers.

Just a thought on your comment above - Yes, most of the tg loving crew seems to have scrambled out of the dark via the internet to recognize they have a sexual attraction to tgs. This combined with the fact that there are many barriers to developing serious long term relationship ensure that most man 2 transwomen experiences are almost entirely sexual and fleeting in nature. I'm no prude, but I think it's quite sad that such narrow relationships so dominate the experience of how these two complimentary people cooperate.

Having had a real relationship with a transwoman, I can assure those people who wonder about it that it is far more satisfying than short-time romps or web cam jerks or whatever else one must resort to for pleasure. You may just find that it fits you perfectly, like the 'girls born with vaginas' never could. And the fit is both sexually and emotionally satisfying.

There are people with experiences, lessons to guide others on their journey. For me it took over 20 years to work it all out for myself. A good community could speed that process for many, giving them the confidence to find and build relationships that can truly be satisfying for themselves and their tg partner.

What a shame so many are so lonely so long, not knowing much about how they might find more happiness together. Seems to me, a community, support groups, information should be made available to assist this process. The name, is just a step in self recognition, it does not define us, but assists in the process of association, cooperation and communication.

Another point: I found out the term Gynandromorphophilia was actually coined by those who would wish our condition to be included as a mental illness. I'd prefer not to promote it or have any association with it. I'd rather take some cuddles from my girlfriend than some anti-depressants to ease my pain

Here's one term a friend suggested to me: Men who Love Transwomen, which could utilise the acronym MELT.

Please Melters and Freinds of Melters (FOMELTERS) out there let me know what you think of that term, or if you have any other suggestions.

[rockabilly]

" I'll stop the world and MELT with you "

thats how i feel about my gf.

[AmyW]

That's actually kind of cute. If it catches on, I hope it doesn't displace the actual meaning, otherwise we won't be able to say stuff like "This ice cream's melting!" without everyone sniggering.

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by rockabilly

" I'll stop the world and MELT with you "

thats how i feel about my gf.

awwww

I know that feeling of being defrosted

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by AmyW

That's actually kind of cute. If it catches on, I hope it doesn't displace the actual meaning, otherwise we won't be able to say stuff like "This ice cream's melting!" without everyone sniggering.

Not to mention, the Wizard of Oz's wicked witch of the west may never be seen in the same way.
youtube.com/watch?v=qfV_ENR5IZE

[newdude]

I have been with my girl for about a year - with a stupid lapse of a few months while I was stupid and got freaked out . She was good enough to accept my apology and we have been a thing ever since.

While I don't have any problems with porn (I actually kinda like it ) It is weird that I couldn't find anyplce to talk about this that wasn't either a dating site or a porn site. The guys on the porn sites seem lots more honest and willing to talk to each other than on the dating sites, so here I am.

I also think we need more representation and more talking among ourselves. One problem I have is that I think it's hard to date a t-girl, but I don't want to bring that up to her because she will probably take it the wrong way (sorry baby - being honest). Having a group online to ask questions or just rant and vent and work things out would be cool. Since dating my girl I start to understand that she has lots of problems just trying to have a life and she had gone through lots of crap. I feel like I'd just be dumping my own weirdness on her. Hope that doesn't sound dumb.

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by newdude

I have been with my girl for about a year - with a stupid lapse of a few months while I was stupid and got freaked out . She was good enough to accept my apology and we have been a thing ever since.

While I don't have any problems with porn (I actually kinda like it ) It is weird that I couldn't find anyplce to talk about this that wasn't either a dating site or a porn site. The guys on the porn sites seem lots more honest and willing to talk to each other than on the dating sites, so here I am.

I also think we need more representation and more talking among ourselves. One problem I have is that I think it's hard to date a t-girl, but I don't want to bring that up to her because she will probably take it the wrong way (sorry baby - being honest). Having a group online to ask questions or just rant and vent and work things out would be cool. Since dating my girl I start to understand that she has lots of problems just trying to have a life and she had gone through lots of crap. I feel like I'd just be dumping my own weirdness on her. Hope that doesn't sound dumb.

Not dumb at all. I agree, that these relationships have many more hurdles than we'd sometimes like to face. Just a few examples may include:
1. Realizing whether it's our side interest or if it is truly what suits us for a relationship.
2. Getting over insecurities about whether you're gay or not.
3. Feeling comfortable in public when people may be staring or thinking your partnership is a bit strange.
4. Opening up to friends and family.
5. Being together when distance is usually invloved.
6. Work and financial considerations if you have to travel.
7. Accepting not having children.
8. Visas.
9. Cultural differences.
10. Just getting along and growing the relationship, which at times can be challenging as we're not so familiar with how to make a transwoman feel special and how to avoid hurting them.

These are just a few of the many possible obstacles on the path, but for some of us, who know these relationships make us truly happy, they must be overcome, and a support community, who's role would be to assist and advise through that journey would be of great value to both the MELT and Transwomen communities.

Thanks for your input and perspective Newdude Wish you continued happiness in your relationship

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by newdude

I feel like I'd just be dumping my own weirdness on her.

I didn't really notice that before, but it's a very good point.

When we first spend time with and get close to a transwoman we're usually going through a dramatic phase of self-discovery and it's normal, but dangerous to want to run every idea past out new friend.

Some of this will sound childish to her and other things she'll have little idea about, because she not likely to see things from the same perspective as a transwoman desiring man.

It's better to spend more time on making her feel special; dealing with the psychological investigations amongst a community of like minds who've been through it.

[daywalker267]

interesting thread. for a long time, i was desperate for some kind of "identity". as much as labels are just something for people who do not feel they belong to one thing so they can point out another group and say "i'm not that", there's certainly some appeal in having an identity, not a label. to me at least.

all the above points mentoned arevery good ones by the way. it's a very interesting discussion. for a long time i had serious battles with myself about whether i was gay or not. i now know i'm not, but straight is a term that doesn't quite fit either.

someone remind me what pansexual means?

by the way i do have a girlfriend (genetic), and she knows about my little "fetsih", but since i told her we have hardly spoken about it and im not sure how comfortable she is with it. i'm not UNattracted to vagina by a long shot, i'm quite partial to it, but i admit that cock is a preference (i certainly think cock LOOKS far better...the vagina looks like some vicious plant that wants to destroy whatever goes in it). having said that, i only think that in my head, and encountering it in real life might provoke an entirely different reaction. unlikely though.

back to the tpoic at hand though, yes, i would rather have an identity. on the other hand, only a handful of people know my true sexual preference, and i'm not sure how i'd feel about being open about my real "identity" in public. sometimes i think gay people have it easier than us because of (GENERALLY) how accepted they are now. but tgirl admirers? we're one of societies little "problems" that get ignored, like the tgirls themselves.

i can only hope that one day things will change, and we'll all be able to walk around, openly honest about who and what we are without fear of judgement for it

[twistedone]

I never was big on labels, and thats all those terms are. Just a way of putting an individual in a catagory, sort of a pigeon hole.

People are afraid of people like us, as they are also afraid of transgendered. People will always be afraid of something they don't, and refuse to understand. Thats why I'm thankful we all have a forum like this, where people of like interest can gather and discuss what we have in common without judgment.

I'm not hurting anyone with my attraction to transgendered ladies, and for the most part, the transgendered ladies aren't hurting anyone either.

With that said, "Screw em" if they don't like us.

Originally Posted by tgsexual

By the way, I've found that the terms Gynemimetophilia and Gynandromorphophilia have been coined to describe people who are attracted to transwomen.

We may refer to ourselves as Gynandromorphophiles and to transwomen as Gynandromorphs.

[The_Void]

Originally Posted by daywalker267

someone remind me what pansexual means?

A pansexual is somebody attracted to people of all genders. And by all genders, I don't just mean men and women, but all the other ones in between - transsexuals, transvestites, intersexed, agendered, all the gender identities under the sun.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by daywalker267

sometimes i think gay people have it easier than us because of (GENERALLY) how accepted they are now. but tgirl admirers? we're one of societies little "problems" that get ignored, like the tgirls themselves.

i can only hope that one day things will change, and we'll all be able to walk around, openly honest about who and what we are without fear of judgement for it

I'm only commenting on this generally, and not directing this at you personally.

The general acceptance of gay people, while 40+ years in the making, didn't happen because people were quiet and afraid. It happened because some people couldn't/didn't want to lie and hide. With each individual person "coming out" eventually attitudes changed and more people were safe in being honest and so on and so on.

[tgsexual]

Originally Posted by Bionca

I'm only commenting on this generally, and not directing this at you personally.

The general acceptance of gay people, while 40+ years in the making, didn't happen because people were quiet and afraid. It happened because some people couldn't/didn't want to lie and hide. With each individual person "coming out" eventually attitudes changed and more people were safe in being honest and so on and so on.

Quite true!!

And I think it's worth noting that it may be considerably easier to come out as a transwoman lover, due to the simple fact that the average straight guy usually finds them somewhat attractive.

With several friends I told, I showed them a few pics and once they confirmed they'd 'Do That' I informed them that is was a transwoman. That kind of made it hard for them to make a smart assed comment. :D

[timhaas]

I personally think that ladyboy lovers could be better described as "bi", rather "straight" or "homosexual". Or maybe "bi+"?
And I don't think we are any minority at all. Or at least we shouldn't feel and behave this way. We're as normal as any other people, so let's put all those hesitations aside. We just like beauty and that's not our fault if sometimes LBs are prettier than "natural" girls, especially those in Asia!
Well, that's how I think. Any suggestions?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Beeing ignored is not always a bad thing.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

To NewDude.

Hey, you are in a relationship with her, she has feelings which you respect great, but what about your feelings, they may burden her a bit but they seem to burden you somewhat more, and communication is a very important part of any relationship, wheather it is positive or not, you support her, i have no doubt that she can sopport you also, so be true to yourself, and believe in her, and in the end i think you'll have a stronger relationship.

JohnDowe.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by johndowe

Hi there.

Beeing ignored is not always a bad thing.

JohnDowe.

When there are things that need to be said, it absolutely is.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I did say SOMETIMES...


Why so serious?

The Joker/JohnDowe.

[british_boy]

I wonder whether we need labels simply to explain and justify ourselves to a misunderstanding, sometimes hostile world.

My girlfriend is a pre-op TS, but to me she's just Agatha, my girlfriend, who I love dearly. I just sometimes wish that we could ignore the rest of the world and its prejudices.

[novicetgirllover]

The term you're looking for is polysexual/multisexual meaning you're attracted to multiple genders but not all.

In public I use the 'bi' label. I'm completely out about my sexual preference and being bi certainly helps- as if most people expect bi's to be attracted to transgenders. Frankly coming out is a bit of a double edge sword as the girls I date tend to live in stealth.

[suebone]

Originally Posted by novicetgirllover

The term you're looking for is polysexual/multisexual meaning you're attracted to multiple genders but not all.

In public I use the 'bi' label. I'm completely out about my sexual preference and being bi certainly helps- as if most people expect bi's to be attracted to transgenders. Frankly coming out is a bit of a double edge sword as the girls I date tend to live in stealth.

stealth mode, is the only way we can live these days. till the world change's
WON'T happen to soon..