Middle East

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Prior to WWII we were strongly isolationist as a country. the attack in Pearl Harbor changed that. As the war concluded it became obvious that the Soviet Union was becoming a threat to Western countries. Some of our generals proposed war to destroy that threat.
As an alternative, John Foster Dulles, Eisenhower's Sec. of State established the "containment" plan to surround the Soviet Union with military bases in countries friendly to us. This was the beginning of the cold war. We now have military bases in over fifty countries.

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

Originally Posted by randolph

The revolution in Egypt is bound to have major effect on our policies. It demonstrates the hypocrisy of our words. And the fragility of our client states. It's about time we really support Democracy not just empty rhetoric.

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I take it you are not for this policy? Then would you have supported the other alternative - war with the Soviet Union? Or to just ignore the problem?

For now the revolution in Egypt has brought in military rule. Their other alternative is the Muslim Brotherhood. I doubt either option is a democracy. Remember the Lesson of Barack: Change isn't always good.

If the protests in Libya succeed they will almost certainly change their government for the better.

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

We are entering a period of extreme uncertainty. Africa and the Middle East are coming unglued. People want freedom and equal rights. Can they get it or will one despot be replaced with another? It depends a lot on whether leaders emerge from the mob. The uprisings seem to consist primarily young people that are savvy on communicating and want a secular democratic government, i.e. a western style government. They are not a bunch of religious fanatics(thank God). Military rule may provide temporary control and stability. However, it is very tempting for generals to hang on to power. It is essential that there is joint civilian military leadership during the transition to full civilian leadership.
The critical question is the Western democracies are up to the task of helping these countries make the transition? History is not promising in this regard.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

Well you go on and on about the "military industrial complex" and here you're saying there wasn't really any other way.

[franalexes]

Originally Posted by randolph

We shoulda nuked them when we had the chance (not really). The containment worked and set the stage for the cold war. Was there an alternative? With Stalin in power, I doubt it. Russia was held together with brute force and massive insane purges of millions of Russians. Also, paranoia regarding the U.S.

.

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm so pleased that six months ago Hillary said the mis-east countries were so stable.
Whatever comes from the mid-east, it will not be to our favor.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Hindsight is always 20-20. I'm so pleased that six months ago Hillary said the mis-east countries were so stable.
Whatever comes from the mid-east, it will not be to our favor.

Hindsite is better than foresite by a damnsite

The impression I have is that the Obama administration is in a state of shock. Fifty years of foreign policy is going down the drain and they(we) have no idea what to do about it.
Oh wait, we just approved 50 billion for refueling planes to feed strike fighters. Yes indeed this will help us against our enemies. Err, lets see, what enemies will strike fighters protect us against? Oh, well we will think of somebody, just give us a little time.

[TracyCoxx]

While the UN is about to condemn Qaddafi, the UN's Human Rights Council is about to release a report praising Lybia's human rights record.

This is while Lybia's citizens risk death to protest against their ruler and try to over throw him.

This speaks volumes about the UN's legitimacy.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

While the UN is about to condemn Qaddafi, the UN's Human Rights Council is about to release a report praising Lybia's human rights record.

This is while Lybia's citizens risk death to protest against their ruler and try to over throw him.

This speaks volumes about the UN's legitimacy.

The revelations coming out of Libya show how clueless the UN was regarding it's human rights. We need to take out Gaddafi immediately before he causes any more damage.

[Buddy]

The UN does have legitimate purpose, like bringing in the "Good" drugs through diplomat pouches. Throughout History, WAR is the way you get things done, and without war, world peace is a poker game with 5200000cards. This is a great opportunity to take Ghadaffi out, and I think you'll see a no fly zone put on Labia{sic} if the UN palms get greased.
History is a product of the glands, don't sweat it. Ignore this message.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Buddy

The UN does have legitimate purpose, like bringing in the "Good" drugs through diplomat pouches. Throughout History, WAR is the way you get things done, and without war, world peace is a poker game with 5200000cards. This is a great opportunity to take Ghadaffi out, and I think you'll see a no fly zone put on Labia{sic} if the UN palms get greased.
History is a product of the glands, don't sweat it. Ignore this message.

It's tough to ignore your message when you insult an entire nation and its people with your asinine and crass "Labia" joke. That kind of crap should stay in the other parts of the site, not here where serious discussion happens, or at least is supposed to happen.

[Buddy]

Loosen that tie, SMC, millions of dying Africans is no joke, thinking this forum is going to change all that is a joke. Saddam and Malomar were both terriffic Dads, you've got to give them that, their kids are all Billionaires! Obama has 7 more years to promote his message, you saw a general this week say that the two Middle East wars have been disasters. Americans are going to have to get thicker skins, or start getting anally probed at the airport, and that's no joke!!!I'm proud as shit to be an American, we should have risked WWIII to have killed Osama when we had his trail and been done with it. This mess over there is all about money, not only the greedy corporate money, but also the standard of living that we enjoy here in the good ole USA. So yes, there is a serious side to all this, but if we built a reliable Electric Car, we could then focus on China and put the fire out in the middle east. As long as Americans want GTOs and Hummers, that's what we'll get, and with it, Osamas, and Ghadaffis and Sadaams.
Some fine points have been made here and yes I know it's serious, but it's MONEY that is going to feed the starving children. And as long as this old world turns, money brings out the greed in all of us. your JOB is your political statement!!!Yikes!!! The truth has been told and few heard.
I'll bet $50 that the Iraq War destroyed us. Who's the arbiter?

[ila]

Originally Posted by Buddy

Loosen that tie, SMC, millions of dying Africans is no joke, thinking this forum is going to change all that is a joke...

Regardless of whether this forum (or any other) may or may not change something has nothing to do with making insulting remarks about a country and its citizens.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Buddy

Loosen that tie, SMC, millions of dying Africans is no joke, thinking this forum is going to change all that is a joke.

Originally Posted by ila

Regardless of whether this forum (or any other) may or may not change something has nothing to do with making insulting remarks about a country and its citizens.

ila is absolutely correct, and I would go further to state that discussions on this forum about serious issues actually may change things. If one person behaves differently in the world because she or he learns something new or adopts a more advanced way of thinking as a result of our discussions, the possibilities for what ramifications that might have are limitless. Note I used the word "possibilities." Consider the butterfly effect in chaos theory.

Your response to my post, Buddy, was not at all like ila's. You decided to compound your original insulting remark by misrepresenting my response to it and then characterizing my concern as a "joke."

Your insights, no matter how correct they may be, do not make it okay to be insulting.

[Buddy]

Originally Posted by smc

Your insights, no matter how correct they may be, do not make it okay to be insulting.

This is a free country and a free internet and I can be crass and insulting if I wanna be, I can make fag remarks at a soldier's burial ...RIGHT??! Okay Okay , you win, officer, I'll move along, back over to the "shemale" side.
PS-wear a condom!
PS2 -the Middle East has been a mess for two thousand years. You may gain Enlightenment in the desert, but two trhousand years from now things will still be a mess over there.......... PEACE-OUT!!!!!

[smc]

Originally Posted by Buddy

This is a free country and a free internet and I can be crass and insulting if I wanna be, I can make fag remarks at a soldier's burial ...RIGHT??! Okay Okay , you win, officer, I'll move along, back over to the "shemale" side.
PS-wear a condom!
PS2 -the Middle East has been a mess for two thousand years. You may gain Enlightenment in the desert, but two trhousand years from now things will still be a mess over there.......... PEACE-OUT!!!!!

Actually, this is not a "free" site in the sense you mean. You have no right to "hate speech" (like the Westboro Baptist Church) protected by the U.S. Constitution. It is privately owned and there have been rules established by the site owner, who has empowered moderators to enforce those rules. So, consider this your warning about Forum Rule 4.

[TracyCoxx]

So Libya produces about 1.5% of our oil. Why are our gas prices going up 13%? Seems like that's something our administration should look in to.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

So Libya produces about 1.5% of our oil. Why are our gas prices going up 13%? Seems like that's something our administration should look in to.

Yep, good ol free enterprise at work. Any excuse to raise prices. The Saudis said they could take care of any shortfall. So why are prices going up? Prices have nothing to do with supply and demand, they are controlled by speculators on Wall Street. An increase of only one cent in the price of gas results in billions more for the speculators and the oil companies.
The government should look into it? You have got to be kidding! If we had three assholes the speculators, the oil companies and the government wouldn't have to share.

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

So Libya produces about 1.5% of our oil. Why are our gas prices going up 13%? Seems like that's something our administration should look in to.

Especially since the majority of your oil imports come from Canada.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Yep, good ol free enterprise at work. Any excuse to raise prices. The Saudis said they could take care of any shortfall. So why are prices going up? Prices have nothing to do with supply and demand, they are controlled by speculators on Wall Street. An increase of only one cent in the price of gas results in billions more for the speculators and the oil companies.
The government should look into it? You have got to be kidding! If we had three assholes the speculators, the oil companies and the government wouldn't have to share.

You sure hit the nail on the head there, randolph.

[randolph]

Three cheers for Canada! They are sending war planes to enforce the no fly zone over Libya.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Three cheers for Canada! They are sending war planes to enforce the no fly zone over Libya.

I'm afraid that it's going to be too late for the rebel forces in Libya.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

I'm afraid that it's going to be too late for the rebel forces in Libya.

Maybe not, Gaddafi just called for an immediate ceasefire.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Maybe not, Gaddafi just called for an immediate ceasefire.

lol, well there you go. It's all over.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Maybe not, Gaddafi just called for an immediate ceasefire.

Yes, you are right, Gaddafi did announce a unilateral ceasefire. One must read farther into this than just a headline. One report that I read said that the Libyan government is going to be sending anti-terrorism teams into all the government held areas. If one reads between the lines here that means government sanctioned summary executions of anyone deemed to be an enemy of the state.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

Yes, you are right, Gaddafi did announce a unilateral ceasefire. One must read farther into this than just a headline. One report that I read said that the Libyan government is going to be sending anti-terrorism teams into all the government held areas. If one reads between the lines here that means government sanctioned summary executions of anyone deemed to be an enemy of the state.

Gaddafi is a wiley character. He declared a ceasefire to give him time to figure out how to weasel out of this situation. I don't think the combination of Arab and Western countries will allow him to pull any monkey business. I think he is primarily interested in saving his own ass once the new government takes over.

[TracyCoxx]

After Quadaffi is removed from Lybia and he's put on trial he should be made to appear on What Not To Wear.

[TracyCoxx]

Oh lovely. Foxnews just aired that the US will launch tomahawk cruise missiles right after dark. I hope no one in Quaddafi's military is watching.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Oh lovely. Foxnews just aired that the US will launch tomahawk cruise missiles right after dark. I hope no one in Quaddafi's military is watching.

Oh great! I suppose we also gave them the exact target sites of the Tomahawks.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Oh great! I suppose we also gave them the exact target sites of the Tomahawks.

Reminds me of that time in Somalia during Clinton's presidency when American troops were entering Somalia. The damn news reporters were on the beach waiting to film the first wave of Americans storming the beach.

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Oh lovely. Foxnews just aired that the US will launch tomahawk cruise missiles right after dark. I hope no one in Quaddafi's military is watching.

Originally Posted by randolph

Oh great! I suppose we also gave them the exact target sites of the Tomahawks.

Tomahawks are cruise missiles and not ballistic missiles. This means that their flight path is not predictable which makes them very hard to detect and defeat. The target sites and times on target could be sent to Qadhafi days in advance and it's not likely that Libya would be able to destroy the missiles before they hit their targets.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

Tomahawks are cruise missiles and not ballistic missiles. This means that their flight path is not predictable which makes them very hard to detect and defeat. The target sites and times on target could be sent to Qadhafi days in advance and it's not likely that Libya would be able to destroy the missiles before they hit their targets.

Yeah, but the warning gives Quaddafi time to move the targets out of the way.
I suspect one bomb on his fancy tent would send him on his way, he is a devious coward.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Yeah, but the warning gives Quaddafi time to move the targets out of the way...

What makes you think that the targets are mobile.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

What makes you think that the targets are mobile.

Well. I suppose some of them are planes, helicopters and tanks. Although Tomahawks may be too expensive to send in to hit tanks. I suppose Quaddafi could move his tent but that might take awhile if he carries all his money with him.

[smc]

Originally Posted by ila

What makes you think that the targets are mobile.

Doesn't that special tent fly?

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

Doesn't that special tent fly?

The only thing that takes wing in that tent are his flights of fancy.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by ila

What makes you think that the targets are mobile.

I thought we're enforcing a no-fly zone over Lybia. Their airplanes are mobile, no?

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I thought we're enforcing a no-fly zone over Lybia. Their airplanes are mobile, no?

I never said that aircraft wouldn't be targeted. I did ask why randolph thought the targets would be mobile. And, BTW, the tagets were anti-aircraft sites which is what any person with a modicum of common sense would conclude given that allied aircraft will be flying over Libya (note the correct spelling).

[randolph]

At the same time we are bombing Gaddafi, we have sold 85 F15 Strike Eagles to Saudi Arabia! We plan to train hundreds of Saudi's on how to fly them for air to air and air to ground attacks day or night at an air force facility in Idaho. This is an 85 billion dollar deal!
So as much of the Middle East is striving for Democracy we are building up our favorite Authoritarian Autocracy, militarily.
Hypocrisy rules in Washington!

We ain't gunna let none of dem damn uprisers get aholt of our erl, no suree bob!

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

At the same time we are bombing Gaddafi, we have sold 85 F15 Strike Eagles to Saudi Arabia! We plan to train hundreds of Saudi's on how to fly them for air to air and air to ground attacks day or night at an air force facility in Idaho. This is an 85 billion dollar deal!
So as much of the Middle East is striving for Democracy we are building up our favorite Authoritarian Autocracy, militarily.
Hypocrisy rules in Washington!

We ain't gunna let none of dem damn uprisers get aholt of our erl, no suree bob!

Forget oil paranoia. I think the real problem is what happens if Saudi Arabia is taken over by uprisers who happen to be extreme muslim fundamentalists. All off a sudden a bunch of whacos have 85 F15 Strike Eagles.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Forget oil paranoia. I think the real problem is what happens if Saudi Arabia is taken over by uprisers who happen to be extreme muslim fundamentalists. All off a sudden a bunch of whacos have 85 F15 Strike Eagles.

Eighty fives

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Forget oil paranoia. I think the real problem is what happens if Saudi Arabia is taken over by uprisers who happen to be extreme muslim fundamentalists. All off a sudden a bunch of whacos have 85 F15 Strike Eagles.

Supersonic fighter aircraft cannot be flown by just anyone. It takes years of training to be able to fly the aircraft as well as how to employ/deploy the araments that it is capable of delivering. F-15s are also mainly used for air to air combat and not to support ground forces. So really, Tracy, when it comes down to it you are just as bad as the media at trying to spread fear among an unknowing populace.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

Supersonic fighter aircraft cannot be flown by just anyone. It takes years of training to be able to fly the aircraft as well as how to employ/deploy the armaments that it is capable of delivering. F-15s are also mainly used for air to air combat and not to support ground forces. So really, Tracy, when it comes down to it you are just as bad as the media at trying to spread fear among an unknowing populace.

Its true, the F15 pilot requires lots of training. That's why we plan to train hundreds of Arabs at a base in Idaho. Let's see, it was Arabs that were involved in 911. Weren't we supposed to have a problem with training Arabs to fly airplanes?

[ila]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Forget oil paranoia. I think the real problem is what happens if Saudi Arabia is taken over by uprisers who happen to be extreme muslim fundamentalists. All off a sudden a bunch of whacos have 85 F15 Strike Eagles.

Originally Posted by randolph

Its true, the F15 pilot requires lots of training. That's why we plan to train hundreds of Arabs at a base in Idaho. Let's see, it was Arabs that were involved in 911. Weren't we supposed to have a problem with training Arabs to fly airplanes?

Should Saudi Arabia be taken over by fundamentalists it does not automatically follow that all of the pilots would go over to the fundamentalist side. Nor does it follow that the fundamentalists would use the aircraft against any other country or its own citizens.

One must understand military and weapons sytems capabilities as well as countermeasures before stating such outrageous innuendos.

[randolph]

Ila

One must understand military and weapons sytems capabilities as well as countermeasures before stating such outrageous innuendos.

Sure they are outrageous innuendos. But what if someone, a year ago, said that the Fukashima nuclear plant would be destroyed by a mega tsunami?

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

Ila

Sure they are outrageous innuendos. But what if someone, a year ago, said that the Fukashima nuclear plant would be destroyed by a mega tsunami?

That's a false analogy.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

That's a false analogy.

It's all about risk in the real world. Apparently, your conclusion was that the risk of the F15s being taken over by extremists was so remote that stating it was outrageous. Everything we do has risks and unforeseen risks do come to fruition. They are called Black Swans, the unexpected.

[ila]

Originally Posted by randolph

...Apparently, your conclusion was that the risk of the F15s being taken over by extremists was so remote that stating it was outrageous...

I stated no such thing. I did state that it is a wrong analogy to link a natural disaster to that of manmade actions.

[jdawg]

Apparently we are considering the option to arm the rebels in Libya. I hope Obama does this considering how well it worked for us in the 80's. We didn't have problems with the Afghan rebels or anything after the 80's.

[smc]

Yesterday's editorial cartoon in The Boston Globe ... all you need to know.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by ila

I stated no such thing. I did state that it is a wrong analogy to link a natural disaster to that of manmade actions.

Ila

One must understand military and weapons sytems capabilities as well as countermeasures before stating such outrageous innuendos.

This is what I was referring to.

[randolph]

PARIS (Reuters) ? French special forces have detained Ivory Coast's Laurent Gbagbo and handed him to leaders of the rebel opposition, after French tanks forced their way into his residence, a Gbagbo adviser in France said.

"Gbagbo has been arrested by French special forces in his residence and has been handed over to the rebel leaders," adviser Toussaint Alain told Reuters.

Gee, sounds like we should have let the French take care of Gaddafi. We could have saved 500,000,000 dollars!