Christians who are attracted to Transsexuals.

[Sigma]

This thread is not to bash anyone. No one is being judged.

I am christian, and deep down inside I feel terrible for being attracted to transsexuals. I am also attracted to genetic women. I am not attracted to men. My attraction towards transsexuals has me very confused about who I am because of my religion. Transsexuals are born the sex that they do not believe they should be. However there is nothing in the Bible that refers to transsexuals. Sometimes I wonder will I go to hell because of this.

To my fellow Christians, what do you think of the attraction for transsexual and your religious beliefs?

[Jenae LaTorque]

[quote=Sigma;109223]
However there is nothing in the Bible that refers to transsexuals.

Wrong, there are several passages that do refer to this. One is:

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

Every T-girl I've seen has worn women's clothes, so there you go! So, according to your Bible I am an abomination. Of course that doesn't bother me because I know that your Bible, while containing many lessons of value, is basically just a collection of old folktales and quasi-history. Jesus was a great man who left many wonderful thoughts for us but as for the pie in the sky bit, that is wishful dreaming.

Now you have a conflict here. How much of a conflict depends on what kind of a Christian you are. Are you a progressive or old line Evangelical Christian? The progressive churches are soft on homosexuality while the Evangical of course are not.

This site may help you: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm


I would say that you are looking for someone to give you another crutch to lean on. I am telling you that as a human being, you need to stand up and throw away your crutches and walk.

[barry]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

so jesus doesnt like me in my cute little pink panties?

Originally Posted by Sigma

Sometimes I wonder will I go to hell because of this.

yes you are - i'll see ya there

[Sigma]

[QUOTE=Jenae LaTorque;109238]

Originally Posted by Sigma

However there is nothing in the Bible that refers to transsexuals.

Wrong, there are several passages that do refer to this. One is:

"A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

Every T-girl I've seen has worn women's clothes, so there you go! So, according to your Bible I am an abomination. Of course that doesn't bother me because I know that your Bible, while containing many lessons of value, is basically just a collection of old folktales and quasi-history. Jesus was a great man who left many wonderful thoughts for us but as for the pie in the sky bit, that is wishful dreaming.

Now you have a conflict here. How much of a conflict depends on what kind of a Christian you are. Are you a progressive or old line Evangelical Christian? The progressive churches are soft on homosexuality while the Evangical of course are not.

This site may help you: http://www.religioustolerance.org/hom_bibl.htm


I would say that you are looking for someone to give you another crutch to lean on. I am telling you that as a human being, you need to stand up and throw away your crutches and walk.

The Bible does not truly speak about transsexuals. It did mention clothing, but not the medical and psychological problems that transsexuals have. However transsexuals did not exist during those periods. Also transsexualism is being more viewed as a medical issue.

Excuse you. I am not looking for a crutch to lean. You don't know me so don't judge me.

[Jenae LaTorque]

[quote=Sigma;109252
The Bible does not truly speak about transsexuals.

Of course the Bible does not speak directly about Transexuals. Wise up, the term is a relative new one compared to that dusty old book. The Bible doesn't mention evolution, genetics, nuclear science, MTV, YouTube, the internet, and a jillion other things either. Why? Because it was written for the most part over 1900 years ago. Now if this "word of god" mentioned electrons, the human genome, or even the correct order of our solar system, now then you might have something. The only reason it is still even bothered with is because it is a crutch for people who can't face the fact of their own mortality.

Of course the Bible doesn't talk about the medical and psychological aspects directly and yes there were transexuals then. Many other culture have a long history of them. The Bible doesn't mention mental illness either; people were posessed by demons then.... not mentally ill. It has a great host of other ignorant ideas in it also. Many of the heroes of the Bible would be tried as war criminals today. There are many good things in that book, but you have to face the fact that some of it was written by ignorant men and is utter trash and some of it is dangerous trash because there are still people who believe it. Much the same can be said of the Quaran.

Am I judging you. Yes. I do because I've been there. Fortunately, I grew out of that phase. If you insist on believing in Jesus, then what you have to ask yourself is: Would Jesus condemn transexuals? No, I don't believe he would. Jesus was a compassionate, forgiving, and understanding man. Think about what Jesus actually said and ignore Paul, he was a power hungry maniac who never really knew Jesus. Have you ever noticed that Paul doesn't really seem to know much about Jesus? Which is not that strange because I have met many professed Christians that don't seem to know much about him either. Do you?

[Sigma]

[QUOTE=Jenae LaTorque;109262][quote=Sigma;109252
The Bible does not truly speak about transsexuals.

Of course the Bible does not speak directly about Transexuals. Wise up, the term is a relative new one compared to that dusty old book. The Bible doesn't mention evolution, genetics, nuclear science, MTV, YouTube, the internet, and a jillion other things either. Why? Because it was written for the most part over 1900 years ago. Now if this "word of god" mentioned electrons, the human genome, or even the correct order of our solar system, now then you might have something. The only reason it is still even bothered with is because it is a crutch for people who can't face the fact of their own mortality.

Of course the Bible doesn't talk about the medical and psychological aspects directly and yes there were transexuals then. Many other culture have a long history of them. The Bible doesn't mention mental illness either; people were posessed by demons then.... not mentally ill. It has a great host of other ignorant ideas in it also. Many of the heroes of the Bible would be tried as war criminals today. There are many good things in that book, but you have to face the fact that some of it was written by ignorant men and is utter trash and some of it is dangerous trash because there are still people who believe it. Much the same can be said of the Quaran.

Am I judging you. Yes. I do because I've been there. Fortunately, I grew out of that phase. If you insist on believing in Jesus, then what you have to ask yourself is: Would Jesus condemn transexuals? No, I don't believe he would. Jesus was a compassionate, forgiving, and understanding man. Think about what Jesus actually said and ignore Paul, he was a power hungry maniac who never really knew Jesus. Have you ever noticed that Paul doesn't really seem to know much about Jesus? Which is not that strange because I have met many professed Christians that don't seem to know much about him either. Do you?[/QUOTE]

I know the WORD TRANSSEXUAL is relatively new. I have common sense. I know why the bible does not mention many things in today's world.

You are judging me based off of nothing more than my religion. You have no knowledge of my views as a Christian, but judge me anyway. You don't even know who I am.

All I asked was a religious view of this matter, not a topic for people to judge me based off of nothing.

[barry]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

The only reason it is still even bothered with is because it is a crutch for people who can't face the fact of their own mortality.

i'll be the first to step right up and say its just a book and i also feel that when you die - you die - end program - shows over, go home - fade to black

however i cant get behind you on this quote. some perhaps use it as such however i think most use it as a mechanism of faith - a belief in something more - who the hell am i to say to people there is nothing but your roting carcass in a pine box when its all said in done. i have the right to that just as others have the right to belief in something beyond that.

[Gor Gar]

Sigma, about the only thing you can do with this personal struggle you seem to be facing is to take it to prayer. You could talk to 20 different people about this dilemma and you'd get 20 different answers...put it in God's hands and see where He directs you. Pray about it and fast over it if you feel the need, and most importantly have faith that He will give you an answer.

Now, as for my personal opinion, being a Christian myself, you can look at it like this: If a person is born crippled they would take the necessary steps to correct their handicap, be it corrective shoes, leg braces, or whatever. Same with the person who may have trouble with their vision; they may get corrective surgery or the proper prescription for eye glasses. If t-girls are women who were born in the wrong body, then they're doing nothing more than taking steps in fixing their personal "handicap".

Or, perhaps you could view it this way: if all you're doing is looking and fantasizing, and if you never cross the line of physical contact, then I wouldn't think you'd get into a lot of trouble with The Almighty. Folks have fantasies all the time, and sometimes we don't always know the origin of said fantasies. You fantasize about chicks with dicks...okay...compare that to, say, a guy who might fantasize about snuff sex or child molestation...your fantasies are TAME by comparison. But if said guy never acts on those questionable urges that may fuel his fires when he's at home alone and the doors are locked, then he can't get held accountable for such atrocities. Likewise, if you think that you risk eternal damnation by having sex with a t-girl, then simply never act on the fantasies. Keep them two-dimensional and in your head.

But with all of that said, again, I'll stress that you should take it to prayer and see how the Lord moves your conscience. Best wishes to you in that.

And Jenae, if you're reading this, you seriously need to cool off with the "crutch" vitriol. If dropping your faith works for you, then by all means revel in it, but please do not trivialize or downplay the beliefs of others. Sigma didn't come on here condemning anybody with his question.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Crutch vitriol?? Yes the medicine of TRUTH may be bitter to you lame people, but it is still the TRUTH!

Question: Do you believe the parable about the adultress who was to be stoned and Jesus supposably said "Let him without sin cast the first stone"?

[Gor Gar]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Crutch vitriol?? Yes the medicine of TRUTH may be bitter to you lame people, but it is still the TRUTH!

Question: Do you believe the parable about the adultress who was to be stoned and Jesus supposably said "Let him without sin cast the first stone"?

Oh, so we're lame huh? That comment shouldn't surprise me, considering how I've seen you quoting the likes of Sam Harris in another post. You would think that a person in your shoes would understand a little something called TOLERANCE better than your average person. But then, I guess tolerance is only cool as long as it's not applied to Christians, right?

As for that parable, yes, I believe it happened, though I don't understand why you bring it up. But while you're paraphrasing Jesus, you might want to also consider what He said pertaining to judgment: "Before you see the splinter in another man's eye, remove the beam from your own."

[Sigma]

Originally Posted by Gor Gar

Oh, so we're lame huh? That comment shouldn't surprise me, considering how I've seen you quoting the likes of Sam Harris in another post. You would think that a person in your shoes would understand a little something called TOLERANCE better than your average person. But then, I guess tolerance is only cool as long as it's not applied to Christians, right?

As for that parable, yes, I believe it happened, though I don't understand why you bring it up. But while you're paraphrasing Jesus, you might want to also consider what He said pertaining to judgment: "Before you see the splinter in another man's eye, remove the beam from your own."

True words of wisdom from Gor Gar. Christians are lame? When does religion makes someone lame? That is like saying you like to eat Chicken so you are lame! That makes no sense what so ever. I think Jenae needs to read the first two sentences of this topic.

[franalexes]

Sigma,
stop by and see me some time. If I'm not at home, look for me at church.

[randolph]

Jesus said: "the kingdom of God is within you"
Christians tend to forget that.
Think about it!

[GRH]

Nowhere did Jesus condemn homosexuals, so I'd think that likewise, he wouldn't condemn your like of transexuals. For Red-letter Christians (those who follow the words of Jesus) this should be a non-issue.

[Bionca]

Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

The authors of the Bible were very aware of what we would likely call "Transgenderd Women" today. The cults if Ishtar, Ashera, Innanna all had a class of Priestess who were castrated men. These goddesses were worshiped by The Hebrew's neighbors (Babylon, Assyria, Sumeria).

Later in Rome, the cults of Isis and Cybele also had "eunuch" priestesses. By the Victorian age in England, "eunuch" was used to describe the Hijra in Colonial India as well as the various "third sex" M2Fs in SE Asia, Native Americans, Maori, Samoans, Aboriginal Australians.

Today, various churches use this passage to advocate for celebacy and abstinence. However, given the highly sexual (and spiritual) nature of the neighboring priestesses, I find that to be an incorrect application of the verse.

As Gor Gar said, your own introspection needs to be your guide. Myself, I cannot support a faith so quick to condemn something so intrinsic to my own understanding of myself.

[The Conquistador]

We are all going to hell. Just thought I'd add that nugget.

Originally Posted by Sigma

To my fellow Christians, what do you think of the attraction for transsexual and your religious beliefs?

I was raised Catholic and am attracted to transwomen. I have no problem regarding my beliefs or feelings--or actions should I someday meet the right person. Why should there be? I was going to write a lengthy and most likely boring response to this--instead I wrote a(nother) long and boring response to JohnDowe over in the "Fear and Respect" thread...

Anyway, I'm with the "Postman" on this one...

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Read before this and you will understand what is being said.

Jesus was talking about forgivness and how just as God showed forgivness towards our sins, we should likewise show our fellow man forgivness when he sins against us. Afterwards the Pharisees were trying to find fault with his teachings:

3 And Pharisees came up to him, intent on tempting him and saying: “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife on every sort of ground?” 4 In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.” 7 They said to him: “Why, then, did Moses prescribe giving a certificate of dismissal and divorcing her?” 8 He said to them: “Moses, out of regard for YOUR hardheartedness, made the concession to YOU of divorcing YOUR wives, but such has not been the case from [the] beginning. 9 I say to YOU that whoever divorces his wife, except on the ground of fornication, and marries another commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him: “If such is the situation of a man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry.” 11 He said to them: “Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. 12 For there are eunuchs that were born such from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs that were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of the heavens. Let him that can make room for it make room for it.”


In verse 9, Jesus is saying in effect "If all you care about is getting rid of your spouse due to petty things that can be solved, you are no better than someone who sleeps around with another mans woman."

In verse 10, His disciples then comment that if someone is so prone to infidelity, they should not bother getting married.

To which Jesus replies in verses 11 and 12: “Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. For there are eunuchs that were born such from their mother’s womb, and there are eunuchs that were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs that have made themselves eunuchs on account of the kingdom of the heavens. Let him that can make room for it make room for it.”

What Jesus is saying is that any man who is unable to commit to a woman that he pledges himself to over stupid shit that can obviously be sorted out, is a nutless little bitch. Some men have no drive to have a spouse, some follow the trends of their fellow man and think it is cool to sleep around(reference to modernday douchebaggery) and some have devoted their lives to a certain cause.

To sum up what he was trying to convey:

DO - Be honorable. If you have a girlfriend... treat her as such. If you want to go around banging all sorts of women... that is fine. Just be single.

DON'T - Be one of those guys who always has a girlfriend but it is always looking for something better. In other words, don't stick around a girl because you are afraid to be alone. That is what 16 year old girls do.

Be a man, not a metrosexual chump!

[The Conquistador]

To be clear here: hell is not a fiery place of eternal torment. What is commonly referred to as "hell" in Hebrew is Sheol literally translated as "the grave". The eternal damnation and suffering crap is from centuries of Catholic scaremongering.

The place in biblical times, "gehenna" was a giant burning trash pit that was hot enough to obliterate anything dumped into it. Gehenna was not referring to a fiery place of eternal torment. It was referring to eternal destruction with no hope of being remembered or salvaged. Telling someone they were going to be pitched into gehenna was telling them that they are no better than common trash and deserve to be treated as such.

The word "hell" is derived from the old Germanic word hellur which meant "flat stone". When Leif Erickkson came upon the North American Continent, he called it Hellurland, or "Land of the Flat Stones". Hmmm. Land of the Flat Stones. Sounds more like a graveyard than Satans House.

The short and ugly version for those who have not been paying attention, Hell = a grave plot.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by Gor Gar

Oh, so we're lame huh? That comment shouldn't surprise me, considering how I've seen you quoting the likes of Sam Harris in another post. You would think that a person in your shoes would understand a little something called TOLERANCE better than your average person. But then, I guess tolerance is only cool as long as it's not applied to Christians, right?

As for that parable, yes, I believe it happened, though I don't understand why you bring it up. But while you're paraphrasing Jesus, you might want to also consider what He said pertaining to judgment: "Before you see the splinter in another man's eye, remove the beam from your own."

__________________________________________________ ________________

I set a trap for you and being the average ignorant Christian, you stepped right into it. It is a historical fact that the parable of which I spoke is not in the oldest surviving Bibles. It is something that was entered many hundreds of years later into the NT. Since this has been discovered, many Christian believers have come up with all kinds of explanations. I do not want to debate their explanations because no matter what they say about why it was so, the fact remains: There was an addition made to the Word of God by men. The Bible is a book written by men, and it has been altered, mistranslated, corrupted, and is for the most part based on hearsay. None of the accounts of Jesus and his life are a first hand account. What we do have that is firsthand, and some parts of it are deemed to be forgeries, are those parts attributed to Paul. Paul, a man who never knew Jesus as an alive man and by his own statements seems to know very little about him. You would almost think he never even read Mathew, Mark, Luke, and John. Oh, that's right. They were not even written until after Paul was dust himself.

[franalexes]

I wonder how many people get their religeous education off a porn site?
What's wrong with this picture?

But I will agree with Bionca. Once in a while I do feel an element of spiritual specialty wihin my own self. I can't tell you what it is. I can't define it. It's just there.

[Gor Gar]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

__________________________________________________ ________________

I set a trap for you and being the average ignorant Christian, you stepped right into it. It is a historical fact that the parable of which I spoke is not in the oldest surviving Bibles. It is something that was entered many hundreds of years later into the NT. Since this has been discovered, many Christian believers have come up with all kinds of explanations. I do not want to debate their explanations because no matter what they say about why it was so, the fact remains: There was an addition made to the Word of God by men.

Average and ignorant? Thanks...it's nice to know I'm thought so highly of by yet another New Atheist that tries to turn every internet forum and/or comments section they visit into a place to make conversions. Time was, you had to worry about Bible-thumpers using any opportunity they could imagine to get pushy with their beliefs and give obnoxiousness all new levels of meaning...now things have come full circle. How does it feel to become what was probably the very thing that helped push you into dropping your beliefs in the first place? Make no mistake, you're just as bad as a Bible-thumper, you just come at it from another angle.

But please, before you give yourself any more pats on the back and mentally masturbate over how much more intelligent you like to think you are than all of us Christians, keep in mind that I said I BELIEVE it happened. I didn't claim to KNOW that it did. Every so often so-called "NEW AND AMAZING HISTORICAL FACTS" about supposed discrepancies in the Bible bob up to the surface, and anti-theists like yourself grab them and run with them, no matter how absurd or laughable. What about all of the supposed parallels between Jesus Christ and Mithra? What about this mysterious book of Judas? Why isn't the book of Enoch included in the Bible? Why not try to bring some of those up? Believe me, I've heard a fair share of these *snicker* "historical" facts, and more often than not they're shot down by people more educated than you and me put together. Consider that particular little bubble of yours busted.

[Gor Gar]

Originally Posted by franalexes

I wonder how many people get their religeous education off a porn site?
What's wrong with this picture?

Unfortunately, I'm mostly to blame for this turn of events because I was dumb enough to go troll-feeding. Please allow me to apologize for my share of the blame, and to bow out of this penis waving contest. People like Jenae seem to think that it's their duty as internet warriors to argue endlessly over a system of belief that they supposedly feel is outdated, and giving them any credence at all is just throwing napalm on the forest fire.

Jenae, I know you're reading this, so please, get the last word in. Go ahead, I'm sure your hero Sam Harris, or any other of those reactionary alarmists such as Dawkins or Hitchens that have spearheaded this New Atheist "movement" will be proud.

[Mel Asher]

Now, now boys ( and girls - if it applies to you ) - Why generate so much heat ? One or two of you indeed sound like Pauline Crusaders of the Richard Dawkins ilk who seems to have made it his life's mission to sneer at, denigrate and dismiss religious belief, especially Judaic-Christian ones. In fact, so extreme is his approach, that it is almost as though he has made Anti-Religion his own personal religion ! ! !

It comes down quite simply to institutional faith versus personal faith.

I am a little astonished that a genuine enquiry about feelings of personal guilt should have resulted in such contemptuous outpourings.

thanks. No way to ease a in conflict with itself.

[Kimmy_t]

If Christianity makes you try to do good, help the weak, feed the hungry, be compassionate etcetera, embrace it with all your heart.

If Christianity makes you scared of change, narrow-viewed and judgemental, run the F away.



Now as to the original post's question, I'll try to give my view if it's of any comfort:
If the God of Christianity is truly as loving and benevolent as they say, he couldn't care less if t-girls do what they do. They don't hurt anyone with it, and it makes them happier, and it's much easier to make other people happy when you are happy yourself.
If the God of Christianity is not as loving and benevolent as they say and gets upset about t-girls living their life... it's time to go shopping for a better God.

's My take on it. ^_^

Kimmy

[The Conquistador]

If God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD!

[Kimmy_t]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

If God gives you lemons, you FIND A NEW GOD!

I was just looking at my watch and waiting for someone to say that! :D

[Jenae LaTorque]

As anyone who has followed this thread is aware, it started out as a Christian who was looking to resolve his inner conflicts regarding his attraction to Tgirls. Sigma said, "there is nothing in the Bible that refers to transsexuals." In answer, I pointed out a relevant passage that clearly refers to transgenderism: "A woman shall not wear anything that pertains to a man, nor shall a man put on a woman's garment, for all who do so are an ABOMINATION to the Lord your God." (Deuteronomy 22:5)

And what is his reply. "The Bible does not truly speak about transsexuals. It did mention clothing, but not the medical and psychological problems that transsexuals have. However transsexuals did not exist during those periods. Also transsexualism is being more viewed as a medical issue."
All he is doing here is quibbling. The Bible does not contain essays on the medical and pschological aspect of murder either; shall we quibble if murder is allright then? He then states another factual error that transexuals did not exist then. Obviously they did, or there would not be a proscription against the wearing of the clothing of the other sex. History is full of instances of trangenderism and/or cross-dressing. I also directed him to a site that goes into much greater detail on the issue of transgenderism and religion. Note here-Sigma never says whether he visited the site, I do know that he never expressed any appreciation for my effort in finding it for him.


Now, we get to the crutch part. A crutch is a means to supply support where it is needed. A lame man may use one to make his way through the world. Some would describe drugs and alcohol as crutches for people who need them to face life. When Alcoholics Anonymous cure people; what is one of the most successful treatments they use? They have had a lot of success with Replacement Therapy. They replace the alcohol crutch with the religious crutch. If religion is not a crutch, then why do most people turn to it when they have a big problem. I will tell you about a guy named George. He used to have a big drinking problem. Then he turned to religion and some time later he got to be President of the USA. So there is no doubt about it; religion can be a very effective crutch. Some people use it a great deal, while others turn to it only in times of crisis. Sigma has found that his crutch does not fit right and needs some adjustment. I simply said for him to throw away his crutch and walk down the road of life without it. I suspect that they found the allusion somewhat discomfiting.


Now enters Gor Gar. Here we have a Christian who has been able to reconcile his religion with his Tgirl attraction. OK, nothing new there. Christians have been doing that since day one of the Christ belief. If they all really believed in Jesus, why then we would be over run with people running around doing good for others. Let's look at Georgie again. Here is a man who has a personal net worth of over 20 million bucks. And yet he says he is a believer. And what is crazy is that people believe him People have a habit of rationalizing their own behavior and if needed, will alter their creed to serve their purpose(s). This is why there are so many differant denominations of Christian churches who have such widely varying beliefs. And then you have the Muslims and the Jews who all worship the same God of Abraham. OK I guess it's just "diferant crutches for differant folks". So Gor has done the rationalization and does not feel anymore that he is attracted to those "abominations." Worked for him, so he urges Sigma to seek the same solution. So basically, he is saying to whittle on that crutch until it fits, while I am saying to throw the crutch away, you don't need it.

And of course being the good Christion that he claims to be, Sigma is receptive to his fellow Christian cripple, and hostile to the idea of walking on his own two feet. Heaven forbid !!!!!!!!!!

As for the parable of the adultress, I was just curious to see if I was contending with an informed Christian or not. By his answer, I would judge that he was ignorant about that issue and probably a great deal more concerning his religion. I am not saying he is stupid; no, far from it. His use of words indicate that he isn't. However, I do assert that he is intellectually lazy when it come to religious issues. Of course that places him in the majority of Christians. Most of them are content to be just sheep and follow wherever their shepard leads them.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

People have a habit of rationalizing their own behavior and if needed, will alter their creed to serve their purpose(s).

This is true of all people; not just religious folk. As with any human institution, religion is not infallibe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

This is true of all people; not just religious folk. As with any human institution, religion is not infallibe.

So true, we have all done it. When I was young and dumb, and full of cum, I too believed there was a God. After all, that was the consensus of those around me. As I grew up, I began to notice that what people said were their beliefs and what their actions showed were sometimes polar opposites. By the time I reached college age, it was pretty obvious to me that the prime reason that people believed in God was because they wanted to. For most of them it was not because they had read the Bible. No, most people were actually pretty ignorant of what was contained between the covers. Outside of what they had picked up from the movies they really were pretty much in the dark concerning the main body of Scripture that they believed in. There were a surprising number of them that thought Ben Hur (movie) was a story from the Bible. I kid you not! I encountered people who would not believe that Ben Hur was a fictional account written by the ex govenor of New Mexico. They were so sure it was from the Bible. This ignorance of the Bible was understandable several centuries ago when many people were illiterate and depended on their local priest, pastor, preacher etc. for his reading. But there have been translations available in contemporary language for quite some time now and the literacy rate has never been higher.

So why do they believe? One of you good Christians had better explain it to me.

And to Mel Asher, if anybody is being contemptuous, you lead the pack. First you come on like you are an adult talking to children. A fine example of Christian humility you are.Then you characterize Dawkins using the word "ilk" which has negative connatations. Then you portray him as some negative person whose main aim is to put down religion. I realize that you have never read his books because that is so obvious from your tone. All you are doing is parroting what your shepards have said, you silly sheep! Then you make a totally ambiguous statement that it comes down to institutional faith versus personal faith. What a non-statement! Perhaps you had better expound on that by defining each and explaining the conflict between them and what the hell it has to do with the subject here.

While you are at it, please explain what "pauline crusaders" are in your use of the term. Your ready use of the term indicated that it must have some kind of relevance. So I consulted several referances and went to Google on it, but turned up nil.

[transjen]

I want to point out a fact that every bible thumper always forget about and the fact is GOD DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE it was writen by humans
Jerseygirl Jen

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by transjen

I want to point out a fact that every bible thumper always forget about and the fact is GOD DID NOT WRITE THE BIBLE it was writen by humans
Jerseygirl Jen

AND......edited by humans.....and translated (in many cases, mistranslated).......and interpreted and mis interpreted ......and used as an authority to justify wrong doing such as slavery and the opression of women......bah, humbug!!

I would like to point out also that the Christian Bible is not alone here. The Islamic Quaran has been misued in much the same ways. Another thing is has in common with the Bible is that it wasn't written by the main man either. Just as we have no words that Jesus wrote, neither are there words that Muhammad wrote - the man was illiterate.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

As I grew up, I began to notice that what people said were their beliefs and what their actions showed were sometimes polar opposites. By the time I reached college age, it was pretty obvious to me that the prime reason that people believed in God was because they wanted to. For most of them it was not because they had read the Bible. No, most people were actually pretty ignorant of what was contained between the covers. Outside of what they had picked up from the movies they really were pretty much in the dark concerning the main body of Scripture that they believed in.

I've noticed this too. Most people are Christian in name only.

Originally Posted by Jenae La Torque

This ignorance of the Bible was understandable several centuries ago when many people were illiterate and depended on their local priest, pastor, preacher etc. for his reading.

The Bible was written in parable and verse because the people weren't as intelectually advanced as they are now and trying to explain certain things like thermodynamics or something would only result in a blank stare or a scratching of the crown.

Originally Posted by Jenae La Torque

So why do they believe? One of you good Christians had better explain it to me.

Do some use the Christian belief system as a crutch? Yes. Does that mean anyone who believes in the Christian faith uses it as a crutch? No. Lumping people together like that is rather ignorant. There are some of us who view it as a goal to strive for rather than a crutch. Ain't nothing wrong with hope.

[mustang1]

Where's the moderator when you need him? Its time this thread was put out of its misery.

If people want a religious debate, there are no doubt forums for that on the net.

I'm not a god believer, I believe man created God in the beginning to fulfill his needs. But now that God is a monster out of control who creates man, as in the terrorist acts of fanatical Muslims and the behavior of similarly brainwashed Christian fundamentalists.

But I would not bash or flame good Muslims or Christians for their beliefs, provided they're prepared to live and let live, any more than I'd accept them bashing transsexuals or their admirers.

So lets go back to our corners and accept everyone's right to hold their own different but equally valid views. I think that's called maturity.

[new believer]

Originally Posted by mustang1

Where's the moderator when you need him? Its time this thread was put out of its misery.

If people want a religious debate, there are no doubt forums for that on the net.

I'm not a god believer, I believe man created God in the beginning to fulfill his needs. But now that God is a monster out of control who creates man, as in the terrorist acts of fanatical Muslims and the behavior of similarly brainwashed Christian fundamentalists.

But I would not bash or flame good Muslims or Christians for their beliefs, provided they're prepared to live and let live, any more than I'd accept them bashing transsexuals or their admirers.

So lets go back to our corners and accept everyone's right to hold their own different but equally valid views. I think that's called maturity.

A rather grim view this one. But many believe as mustang1 does in his opening statement. But while some facts I agree with here, I disagree with 'different views being equally valid'. Some views can be wrong. Most in the Muslim world would stone to death(or worse) a gay person,much less a TG. I as a Christian don't accept that as 'maturity'. Some 'Christians' might also, but they don't practice true Christiananity. Their just basket cases.
As far as the bible and TG's, nothing. They did not exist at that time. Gays/Transvestites. I'm sure they were around and were probably 'accepted' as much as today.(maybe more so).
Every Christian is,or should be, aware that over the ages each Pope had 'removed' or re-translated parts of the Bible according to beliefs more closely to their own personnel thoughts/opinions.
Like today, people rewrite 'facts' to their own sense of political correctness.
Christ did have an open opinion to all, hated no one and accepted people for what they were period. His sex life is a mystery because early people in charge removed it from the writings.
I'll cling to his 'acceptance'.

[tsgirlfan]

Originally Posted by Sigma

This thread is not to bash anyone. No one is being judged.

I am christian, and deep down inside I feel terrible for being attracted to transsexuals. I am also attracted to genetic women. I am not attracted to men. My attraction towards transsexuals has me very confused about who I am because of my religion. Transsexuals are born the sex that they do not believe they should be. However there is nothing in the Bible that refers to transsexuals. Sometimes I wonder will I go to hell because of this.

To my fellow Christians, what do you think of the attraction for transsexual and your religious beliefs?

I know exactly ow you feel if you want to talk about it

[alyssats]

just enjoy life do what you like as long as youre not hurting anyone

[british_boy]

Speaking of the Old Testament in particular, I'm very glad that I don't base my life on Bronze Age myths and superstitions, which have no basis in fact, and no relevance to the modern world.

Jesus has some interesting words attributed to him. Check out what he has to say on eunuchs, which might be considered the transsexuals of the time.

But as for the rest of "the Good Book", let's be honest, it was written by barely literate goatherds who thought that all the animals in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by british_boy

But as for the rest of "the Good Book", let's be honest, it was written by barely literate goatherds who thought that all the animals in the world lived within walking distance of Noah's house.

Compared to nowadays, yes. But back in the days, some of it was written by scribes who were pretty financially set and were high up on the social ladder. Also remember that the education they recieved back then was completely different to what it is now. Also remember that it was translated from Aramaic which if I remember correctly, is a language whose alphabet is made up of 11 consanents and 0 vowels.

[alphanumeric]

Yeah, I've come across this sort of thing before.

To everyone trying to change a true believers mind (in either direction) I offer you some of the wisest words I've heard about the whole kerfuffle.

Penn Gillette from his HBO show "Bullshit"

"If your religious and you believe the bible is real because of faith, we can't touch you. It's an automatic tie. No one can bust you."

No matter how hard you folks try to convince a Hard Core Atheist OR any person of faith, any real true believer, well it's not gonna happen.

Now if your a person of faith, but have an open mind and would like to see a well documented historical account of true biblical time, check this site out.

http://www.bidstrup.com/bible.htm

And if all you want to do is annoy any deeply religious person who truly believes the bible is lock stock and barrel the only and definitive word of god just ask them about the extremely well documented First Council of Nicea
Where the many splinter groups of Christianity came together to truly hammer out the bible.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Council_of_Nicaea

As for the original posters question.

Just completely forget about anything you feel about TS women, because you haven't even begun to scratch the guilt trip that your imposing on yourself.

Most of your religious friends will deem you a homosexual, and turn their backs on you.

And what your family will probably do, Hoo brother!

So if you need your faith to sustain you, and your religious community to back you during these trying times, well lets just say that road doesn't end well for you.

[Kakariko]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

The Bible doesn't mention evolution, genetics, nuclear science, MTV, YouTube, the internet, and a jillion other things either.

I don't want to restart or get into any sort of argument, just wanted to note that the Bible does mention some of these things. It doesn't mention MTV, though it does mention television, which I think is pretty cool, considering how old the Bible is. I can't remember where from exactly, but if I can find it, I'll post the book, chapter and verse that it's from.

Also, I only read about half of this thread, so please don't hurt me for saying something that may have already been said. I'm just lazy

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by alphanumeric

No matter how hard you folks try to convince a Hard Core Atheist OR any person of faith, any real true believer, well it's not gonna happen.

I for one am not trying to convince anyone of my beliefs. I'm just trying to clear up misconceptions that some may have regarding me and my faith.

Apparently I am a Bible thumping Jesus freak who believes that the Earth was created in 6000 years and that homosexuals will burn in the Seventh Circle of Hell and other such nonsense.

If no one believes me, fine. If someone believes me, so be it. I don't care either way; just don't lump me in with hardcore evangelicals who are just as annoying as hardcore atheists. That irritates me.

[Bionca]

This sounds like justification for feeling guilty for liking trans women. It doesn't matter if that feeling is justified on faith, or social stigma, or aliens beam it into your head.

My advice, if you feel guilt from watching trans porn, by all means DO NOT TRY TO MEET A TRANS WOMAN in real life. At least until you can get this all sorted. Men sobbing after a JO - don't care. Men being 57 flavors of angst and fucked up after seeing me naked - yeah I care.

[jimnaseum]

I just called Jesus on the hot line. You guys are SO screwed!!!

[jimnaseum]

Scroll to the top of the page. There's a picture of the DEVIL there! Do you need Moses to spell it out for you?

[Talvenada]

Originally Posted by Bionca

This sounds like justification for feeling guilty for liking trans women. It doesn't matter if that feeling is justified on faith, or social stigma, or aliens beam it into your head.

My advice, if you feel guilt from watching trans porn, by all means DO NOT TRY TO MEET A TRANS WOMAN in real life. At least until you can get this all sorted. Men sobbing after a JO - don't care. Men being 57 flavors of angst and fucked up after seeing me naked - yeah I care.

MISS BI: (AND SIGMA TOO.)

This is to only add to what you said, and I wanted to call you: Bi (Bionca). Maybe, I'll get lucky and you'll flirt with me.

Hi! Good news for you. People are judged by their life's interactions with other people in every situation, and not by fellow humans. It doesn't matter if you believe in a Deity, or go to religious services weekly. Religion is only a guideline, and not a be all and end all. Religion was for early civilized humans in 29 AD (1980 years ago) after the barbarian period ended. In other words, your family's, friends' and dates' treatment of you as less than an equal is their so-called sin, and that debt will be paid by them. It is not their right, job or decision to judge anyone. It's really a simple situation: you shit on someone, and you will be on the receiving end equally in parts or completely in this life or another one down the road. So, people who treat you poorly will be on the receiving end sooner, if not later. Gay, trans, bi, etc. are not a sin, but treating someone wrongly is a debt (sin is not the best word), which is pretty easy to figure out: something is right or it is wrong, no?




Bye,

TAL

[Jenae LaTorque]

Originally Posted by Kakariko

I don't want to restart or get into any sort of argument, just wanted to note that the Bible does mention some of these things. It doesn't mention MTV, though it does mention television, which I think is pretty cool, considering how old the Bible is. I can't remember where from exactly, but if I can find it, I'll post the book, chapter and verse that it's from.

Also, I only read about half of this thread, so please don't hurt me for saying something that may have already been said. I'm just lazy

Well I am waiting for you to produce that quotation from the Bible that mentions television because you are full of beans kiddo!

[Kakariko]

Originally Posted by Jenae LaTorque

Well I am waiting for you to produce that quotation from the Bible that mentions television because you are full of beans kiddo!

Well, it's not directly mentioned, but the use of television/internet is insinuated. In Revelations chapter 11 it mentions the death of two prophets. Chapters 9, 10 and 11 read: "Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. The inhabitants of the earth will gloat over them and will celebrate by sending each other gifts, because these two prophets had tormented those who live on the earth."

Back in the days of the Bible, there was no existing technology which would allow people all over the world to see what happened in one place. In those days, it would be crazy for someone like me, from Australia to be able to see someone who was in Egypt. Also, I suppose it's not just a subtle reference to TV/internet but any sort of multimedia sharing device, so phones would be included in this also.

Not as directly mentioned as I remember, but still.. it's there. Pretty neat, huh?

[franalexes]

NO! It doesn't say ALL men from ALL nations,( and I don't know if your quote is correct) it says men from all nations. That could mean one man from every nation only. Where do we have that? The closest is New York, United Nations. Or it could be refering to all the nations under Abraham since they claim that Jerusalem is their holy city.

"You know not the hour that I shall come"
Don't waste time on this. Just be ready.

[Kakariko]

You're correct, it doesn't say all men from all nations, that would mean every single person on the planet would see, though it does say men from every single different nation, every different language and every tribe. I don't think that exists in any one city. Not to mention that all those people would have to see them in this one street. I suppose everyone interprets things differently though. Still fun to talk about

Side note: "You know not the hour that I shall come". This is true, but there are indications of things that must come to pass before the end. Some of those things have happened, but some not. I have no idea what all the things are and I don't have the time to study them, but I know of a few of them that have happened. But yeah.. no way to fully know!