Barack Obama

[transjen]

Originally Posted by raconteur

Bingo ... !!!

So how is this any differnt from a HMO? Where a pencil pushing accountant who is not a DR decides wheather or not you recive a needed treatment, All the scare tactics that those agianst healthcare reform claim will happen already happens every single day by ins companies who can care less about your health they only care about profits and are scared to death that there gravey train my be coming to an end


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Jen, I can tell you firsthand that gov. run healthcare is shitty. How do I know? There are 2 letters that explain it:VA. The VA provided healthcare that veterans get for life is absolutely fucking abysmal.

The wait for services is incredibly long(It took me 6 fucking months to get a goddamn X-ray of my knee and I have preference because I'm an OIF vet.)so god knows how long it takes for WWII, Korea and Vietnam vets.

They use the same kind of treatment that would be seen on active duty; namely the "prescribe painkillers till the problem goes away" type treatment.

They don't really bother to try and treat something unless you are on the brink of death.

They don't have a very good track record for keeping their shit together; it seems to be procedure to lose hundreds of thousands of vets records which resulted in thousands of people being the victims of identity theft.


After experiencing firsthand the abuses of the VA system, I'm gonna have to stick with privatized healthcare.(I also used to be enrolled in the state run system, MediCal, when I was a kid and that was an even bigger clusterfuck.)


It's amazing that people want the same Gov. that stiffed its vets returning home from WW1 of their pay and then shot them when they protested, to be in charge of their health and wellbeing.

[randolph]

ROHRABACHER LETS LOOSE.... When a liberal Democrat accuses congressional Republicans of being more interested in playing "political games" than governing, it's not especially surprising. When a conservative Republican House member does it, the remarks tend to stand out.

Rep. Dana Rohrabacher (R-Calif.) took shots at his own party's leaders in the House currently, and blasted fellow Republicans for having failed to have reform healthcare during the first six years of the Bush administration, when Republicans held Congress and the White House.

"Unfortunately, I see a lot of Republicans simply involved in political games," Rohrabacher said in an interview with conservative bloggers at this past weekend's Western Conservative Political Action Conference (CPAC), in videos posted by the conservative blog Hot Air.

"The Republican leadership in the House right now is constantly trying to play a political game every day to try and get a headline, and I don't think that's going to take us anywhere," he added.

Rohrabacher added that his GOP colleagues as focused solely on the "next couple days of headlines." He went on to say that some Republican lawmakers, and even some Republican leaders on the Hill, are "totally out of touch" with "what's going on" with "regular" Americans.

Keep in mind, Rohrabacher is not exactly some reform-minded moderate. He's a very conservative lawmaker -- he once said global warming was caused by dinosaur flatulence and dismissed torture as "hazing pranks from some fraternity" -- who was even caught up in the Abramoff scandal.

And even he's disdainful of congressional Republicans right now.

from Washington Monthly

[transjen]

I know next to nothing about the VA healthcare as i never servied and the only family member who i know ever servered in the army was my father's older brother who was drafted in nam and sadly he was kia so i know none of the pluses or draw backs to VA care, Is goverment run healthcare the cure all? I don't know but i do know the current system is way over due for a major fix and trusting the insureance companies to govern themselves is not the answer
Jennifer

[raconteur]

Originally Posted by transjen

So how is this any differnt from a HMO? Where a pencil pushing accountant who is not a DR decides wheather or not you recive a needed treatment, All the scare tactics that those agianst healthcare reform claim will happen already happens every single day by ins companies who can care less about your health they only care about profits and are scared to death that there gravey train my be coming to an end.
Jerseygirl Jen

Well, I belong to a HMO and I get whatever I need or want, so I have no complaints. If anything, there may be a few too many referrals to specialists for concurrences! Were it not for the very attentive staff at my HMO, I surely would be dead now, or, slowly dying in agony from terminal cancer!

I volunteered for a while at a VA hospital and I can tell you, firsthand, that the care given is awful. I wrote complaint letters to the VA and my legislators which got me banned! My cat gets better care from his Vet!

Ask the Canadians who have to come to the US to avoid death what they think of the "public option"!

Robbing elder care to fund folly is insanity! But then, none of us will ever grow old, so why should we worry ... NOT!

Go volunteer at the VA, or a charity rest home, and you'll gain a new perspective! You need to try to walk a mile in the shoes of the neglected to have any real feeling for how badly our Congress is trying to screw us!

I now return you to your regularly scheduled program, already in progress ...

[randolph]

I belong to the Kaiser HMO in California. They saved my life when I had a burst appendix. Their health care has improved dramatically over the years and I now consider excellent. I believe one of the reasons it provides excellent health care at competitive cost is that it is a NONPROFIT CORPORATION. It is run by doctors not accountants for the benefit of their members, not investors.
Other countries, like Holland can have excellent health care without breaking the bank. Unfortunately the US is so politicized and dominated by corporate interests that good health care for everyone seems impossible.

[raconteur]

Originally Posted by raconteur

I volunteered for a while at a VA hospital and I can tell you, firsthand, that the care given is awful. I wrote complaint letters to the VA and my legislators which got me banned! My cat gets better care from his Vet!

CORRECTION:

Saying, "the care given is awful", was unfair of me. I should have more correctly said that a lot of good people at the VA hospital were woefully underfunded and tried very hard to help, though their resources were very limited. It is difficult for them to endure knowing that a few more bucks would make such a real, positive difference. They do what they can with what they're given to work with. (Our Congress strikes again. )

Our injured fighting men and women deserve better, for sure!

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

Unfortunately the US is so politicized and dominated by corporate interests that good health care for everyone seems impossible.

The thing that really bites us in the ass is that we do have "universal healthcare"; it's called the ER. The fact that people walk into the ER for all sorts of problems regardless of whether or not it is life threatening is what hurts us. Since it is the policy to not turn away anyone who comes in and alot of those people don't have the money to pay for their stuff, the cost gets passed on to those who can. Those who pay end up covering the costs so that their neighbor can pop Prozacs like Bon-Bons.

I can choose what type of vehicle I buy, I can choose what kind accessories come with it, I can choose my own insurance provider, so why can't I choose who I want to buy my healthcare from?

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by raconteur

CORRECTION:

Saying, "the care given is awful", was unfair of me. I should have more correctly said that a lot of good people at the VA hospital were woefully underfunded and tried very hard to help, though their resources were very limited. It is difficult for them to endure knowing that a few more bucks would make such a real, positive difference. They do what they can with what they're given to work with. (Our Congress strikes again. )

Our injured fighting men and women deserve better, for sure!

Actually it is rather shitty; I don't use it any more for that exact reason.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

I know next to nothing about the VA healthcare as i never servied and the only family member who i know ever servered in the army was my father's older brother who was drafted in nam and sadly he was kia so i know none of the pluses or draw backs to VA care, Is goverment run healthcare the cure all? I don't know but i do know the current system is way over due for a major fix and trusting the insureance companies to govern themselves is not the answer
Jennifer

The VA sucks fat donkeyballs. The more distance you can get from any Gov. run programs, the better. What we need is for healthcare to be more competitive. Competition spurs growth, and growth increases supply and the more you have of something, the less the cost will be. Sure, some medical plans may not be the fanciest and provide ass reduction surgery or something like that, but it would definetly cover the basics and that's all anyone really needs. The rest is just bonus. I don't know about you but I'd like to to choose from either Provider A, Provider B, Provider C, Provider D, Provider F or Provider G rather than get stitched up at Peoples Medical Facility # 274.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

. What we need is for healthcare to be more competitive. Competition spurs growth, and growth increases supply and the more you have of something, the less the cost will be. Sure, some medical plans may not be the fanciest and provide ass reduction surgery or something like that, but it would definetly cover the basics and that's all anyone really needs. The rest is just bonus. I don't know about you but I'd like to to choose from either Provider A, Provider B, Provider C, Provider D, Provider F or Provider G rather than get stitched up at Peoples Medical Facility # 274.

The would be ideal but you know it will never happen look at Bush's drug plan for medicare drug prices haven't gone down they went up and when W gave them his drug plan he said that comatition would bring down drug prices logical yes but the drug companies don't compete with each other they hang together as does the health insurence companies eho were given antitrust protection which allows them to met and set rates


Jennifer

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

The would be ideal but you know it will never happen look at Bush's drug plan for medicare drug prices haven't gone down they went up and when W gave them his drug plan he said that comatition would bring down drug prices logical yes but the drug companies don't compete with each other they hang together as does the health insurence companies eho were given antitrust protection which allows them to met and set rates


Jennifer

No, it would work. What we need is for the Gov. to stop meddling with private business. Medicare is another Gov. run crock-o-crap. Why did the drug plan not work? Since the "man" runs Medicare, it just went back to him. It was only done as a sort of publicity stunt to show that the Gov. is actually doing something regardless of who benefits from it to keep people from getting pissed off. All it was was a warm, fuzzy feeling that did nothing. There was no competition going on since it was all funneled through a Gov. program.

An institution that has been known to pocket your money for themselves and leave you with "lowest bidder" products (Government)

vs.

Multiple institutions that compete for your cash and put out superior products(private business)



The choice ain't that hard.

[The Conquistador]

In other news: I had a Chile Relleno burrito from 7-11. I feels good!

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

No, it would work. What we need is for the Gov. to stop meddling with private business. Medicare is another Gov. run crock-o-crap. Why did the drug plan not work? Since the "man" runs Medicare, it just went back to him. It was only done as a sort of publicity stunt to show that the Gov. is actually doing something regardless of who benefits from it to keep people from getting pissed off. All it was was a warm, fuzzy feeling that did nothing. There was no competition going on since it was all funneled through a Gov. program.

An institution that has been known to pocket your money for themselves and leave you with "lowest bidder" products (Government)

vs.

Multiple institutions that compete for your cash and put out superior products(private business)



The choice ain't that hard.

So we should just let the health insurence compties do what ever the want after all we can trust big bussiness right well that kind of thinking lead to the whole WALL STREET mess the choice ain't that hard strip the health insurence companies of there anti trust proctection then perhaps prices will come down as they will no longer be able to meet in private and decide how much to charge


Jerseygirl Jen

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

In other news: I had a Chile Relleno burrito from 7-11. I feels good!

DANGER WILL ROBINSON DANGER gas alert gas alert


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

It's the only burrito that tastes good and doesn't cause me to shit myself.:D

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

So we should just let the health insurence compties do what ever the want after all we can trust big bussiness right well that kind of thinking lead to the whole WALL STREET mess the choice ain't that hard strip the health insurence companies of there anti trust proctection then perhaps prices will come down as they will no longer be able to meet in private and decide how much to charge


Jerseygirl Jen

I'm not saying that businessess are squeaky clean, but given the choice, I'd pick the lesser of the two evils. People learn, Governments don't.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

It's the only burrito that tastes good and doesn't cause me to shit myself.:D

All i know is that every time my boyfriend eats one of those he farts like there's no tommorow


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

The Chile Relleno burrito has no beans in it; it's a Serrano pepper stuffed with cheese, fried in an egg batter, surrounded with some more cheese and wrapped with a tortilla. No anal nerve agents produced


Beans, beans the musical fruit...

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

I'm not saying that businessess are squeaky clean, but given the choice, I'd pick the lesser of the two evils. People learn, Governments don't.

And that is why there anti trust protection needs to be taken away and someone needs to watch over em to make sure they play fair to let them do what ever they want will leave us in the same mess we are in now, I find it hard to belive that any company that pays there CEO over a hundred million+ per year want to see any kind of reform and will do what's best for the suckers who have there policy. We are the only country who has a for profit healthcare system and the drug companies and health insurance don't want anything to change. Something needs to change good healthcare should not be reserverd for the rich but should be for everyone


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

Something needs to change good healthcare should not be reserverd for the rich but should be for everyone

Read this: http://www.arthurshall.com/x_2007_healthcare.shtml

1) Healthcare is one of those things where it is a personal responsibility. While your body can regenerate, it is your responsibility to take care of it. I shouldn't have to have my money taken from me because some lardass doesn't have enough self control to stop eating Ho-Hos; if they want to self -induce diabetes, they can do it on their own dime. Same thing with people who are cavalier with their body. Your health is not my responsibility.

2) It is not an entitlement just for being popped out of someones crotch. If you don't work and contribute nothing, you deserve nothing. I shouldn't have to pay for some welfare bums medical treatments after he gets a nightstick shoved up his ass by the cop he tried to shoot. Society needs to reward those who are hardworking, successful and positive, not burden them with "guilt" because some loser is "less fortunate".

3) What I do with my money is my damn business, not the governments. Who the hell needs more red tape in their lives?

4) The ER is for EMERGENCIES ONLY! If you're a hypochondriac who worries about getting cancer from a paper cut, you need to see a shrink, not a surgeon. If you're a cheap bitch who can't shell out $3 for some Tylenol and wastes time getting it free from the ER, don't be surprised when I give you an even bigger headache with a tire iron.

5) Having the Gov. tell me that I need this is equivalent to telling me that I am a knucklewalking schmuck who is incapable of making coherent decisions myself, so I need a G-man to do it for me. I don't take kindly to being called an idiot, especially by lazy, self-serving bureaucrats.

6) Dr. Thomas Sowell: "If you have been voting for politicians who promise to give you goodies at someone else's expense, then you have no right to complain when they take your money and give it to someone else, including themselves."

[transjen]

So only the rich should be taken care of and screw the poor guy who maybe is stuck between jobs and no longer has any health ins just let him suffer with a broken arm or how about those who are stuck at a low paying job who can't afford to buy there own so i guess it to bad for them just let them die after all it's there own fault they are not rich and only the rich deserve top health care
Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

So only the rich should be taken care of and screw the poor guy who maybe is stuck between jobs and no longer has any health ins just let him suffer with a broken arm or how about those who are stuck at a low paying job who can't afford to buy there own so i guess it to bad for them just let them die after all it's there own fault they are not rich and only the rich deserve top health care
Jerseygirl Jen

It is obvious you did not read the link nor took the time to read my actual statements as you have just tried to counter an arguement with emotions.

[randolph]

Wall Street's Naked Swindle
A scheme to flood the market with counterfeit stocks helped kill Bear Stearns and Lehman Brothers - and the feds have yet to bust the culprits

MATT TAIBBI

Posted Oct 14, 2009 9:30 AM

These are the last three paragraphs of a extremely important article in Rollingstones. Very scary!

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics..._swindle/print

The counterfeit nature of our economy is troubling enough, given that financial power is concentrated in the hands of a few key players - "300 white guys in Manhattan," as a former high-placed executive puts it. But over the course of the past year, that group of insiders has also proved itself brilliantly capable of enlisting the power of the state to help along the process of concentrating economic might - making it less and less likely that the financial markets will ever be policed, since the state is increasingly the captive of these interests.

The new president for whom we all had such high hopes went and hired Michael Froman, a Citigroup executive who accepted a $2.2 million bonus after he joined the White House, to serve on his economic transition team - at the same time the government was giving Citigroup a massive bailout. Then, after promising to curb the influence of lobbyists, Obama hired a former Goldman Sachs lobbyist, Mark Patterson, as chief of staff at the Treasury. He hired another Goldmanite, Gary Gensler, to police the commodities markets. He handed control of the Treasury and Federal Reserve over to Geithner and Bernanke, a pair of stooges who spent their whole careers being bellhops for New York bankers. And on the first anniversary of the collapse of Lehman Brothers, when he finally came to Wall Street to promote "serious financial reform," his plan proved to be so completely absent of balls that the share prices of the major banks soared at the news.

The nation's largest financial players are able to write the rules for own their businesses and brazenly steal billions under the noses of regulators, and nothing is done about it. A thing so fundamental to civilized society as the integrity of a stock, or a mortgage note, or even a U.S. Treasury bond, can no longer be protected, not even in a crisis, and a crime as vulgar and conspicuous as counterfeiting can take place on a systematic level for years without being stopped, even after it begins to affect the modern-day equivalents of the Rockefellers and the Carnegies. What 10 years ago was a cheap stock-fraud scheme for second-rate grifters in Brooklyn has become a major profit center for Wall Street. Our burglar class now rules the national economy. And no one is trying to stop them.

[ila]

This post is for those that want to debate the healthcare issue in the U.S.

I think that you should start a new thread to deal with just the proposed government healthcare. This is a debate with the potential to generate many comments and should not be confined to the Obama thread as this involves more than just Obama. If you would like, I can move all healthcare posts into the new thread should one be started.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

It is obvious you did not read the link nor took the time to read my actual statements as you have just tried to counter an arguement with emotions.

I did read your post and i was responding to the first point you pointed out while i agree that it is your own responisibilty to take care of yourself but you don't seem to consider the mishaps of everyday life you can eat all the rite foods exercise everyday and still fall off a bike or go skiing and break a bone from the points you made it sounds like if you don't have your own health ins or a large bank account then it's to bad for you just suffer and die quickly, As for just walk in to an ER and get free care well guess what you get the bill by being charged a lot more since you have health ins so in fact you are paying for the unhealthy all ready so why not just pony up and give everyone decent healthcare which will help small bussness since they will no longer need to provide healthcare benfits and the GOP should love this it would end medicare and medicade as both will no longer be needed universel healthcare is what we need and end our backwards for profit healthcare system


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

I did read your post and i was responding to the first point you pointed out while i agree that it is your own responisibilty to take care of yourself but you don't seem to consider the mishaps of everyday life you can eat all the rite foods exercise everyday and still fall off a bike or go skiing and break a bone from the points you made it sounds like if you don't have your own health ins or a large bank account then it's to bad for you just suffer and die quickly, As for just walk in to an ER and get free care well guess what you get the bill by being charged a lot more since you have health ins so in fact you are paying for the unhealthy all ready so why not just pony up and give everyone decent healthcare which will help small bussness since they will no longer need to provide healthcare benfits and the GOP should love this it would end medicare and medicade as both will no longer be needed universel healthcare is what we need and end our backwards for profit healthcare system


Jerseygirl Jen

In an idealistic world that would work. Unfortunately we live in the real world where things like that don't happen. Look at all the countries that have adopted Gov. run this and Gov. run that. Even though there is "economic equality" or some other BS, the quality of products is quite shitty and everyone is made equally poorer than if they had not had Gov. involvement. Universal healthcare is another scam by the powers in charge to make people dependent on the "man" for their needs. Look at how bogus welfare, Social Security and numerous other programs are and do you honestly expect Gov. controlled healthcare to be any less of a clusterfuck just because Obama "says so?"

Besides, how often do you expect to use your healthcare? Yes some things are out of our hands, but the odds of something detrimental happening to you are enormously small. Unless you get hit by a flaming gas tanker or something or happen to be accident prone, you are not going to rack up a giant debt.

Healthcare is not an entitlement. It is earned just like everything else we have. It is part of the meritocracy that helped to make America. Saying that everyone derves this or that is rather naive. Being compassionate to the point where you let it blind you to certain truths like the fact that life is cold is a losing strategy.

If you can afford a plasma screen TV, an Escalade with spinners and a hot rod or rice rocket but are to lazy to shell out extra bucks for your health, you deserve to get hit by a car. Life is full of trade offs; your health should be priority and everything else is just a bonus.

[transjen]

Then why is the average life span in England,French, Germany, Sweden longer then ours and healthcare is no where near as expensive? And what about the guy who has no plasma tv or sports car who barely gets by? A guy who works 40 hrs a week but his company pay low wages and offers no benafits? How in the nine hells can he afford $7000 and up for healthcare insurence? And you forget just a visit to your reg DR is around $100 just for a check up you want a flu shot that's another 50 buck added to the bill and God help you if he needs lab work done on you hope you have an extra grand sitting around
Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

Then why is the average life span in England,French, Germany, Sweden longer then ours and healthcare is no where near as expensive? And what about the guy who has no plasma tv or sports car who barely gets by? A guy who works 40 hrs a week but his company pay low wages and offers no benafits? How in the nine hells can he afford $7000 and up for healthcare insurence? And you forget just a visit to your reg DR is around $100 just for a check up you want a flu shot that's another 50 buck added to the bill and God help you if he needs lab work done on you hope you have an extra grand sitting around
Jerseygirl Jen

For the first part:

Who cares about Europe? You forget that alot of them come over here for surgeries just like our Canadian neighbors are. If it was so great, people would be going to Europe, not coming here. Show me links about their longevity and other such stuff for me to actually care about them.

For the second part:

How often would said person be going to the doctors for a check up? How much money could be saved between check ups if people were responsible and not blowing thier money on stupid shit?

[The Conquistador]

Here's one for you Jen. You constantly talk about "Big Business" and "lining their pockets" and "the rich getting richer".

Take a gander at this: http://captaincapitalism.blogspot.co...y-profits.html

Originally Posted by Captain Capitalism

Tuesday, October 20, 2009
Insurance Industry Profits

It is claimed by the Obama administration as well as leftists who like to make You Tube videos that the reason health care costs are so high is because of the profits the insurance industry makes. And that if we were to just get rid of those profits then the savings could be passed onto everyday people like you and me.

I was excited about this prospect of paying lower health insurance and so to see how much in savings would be passed onto me I looked up Aetna, one of the larger publicly traded insurance companies out there. I did this on Reuters because Reuters will not only show you the profit margins for the company you are looking at, but the entire industry. That way you can see just how high of profit margins these companies have and how much you're going to save!!!

*See Profitability Ratios picture below*

Originally Posted by Captain Capitalism

Wow! The past 12 months the insurance industry has had a profit margin of .94%. That's not 94% for those of you who majored in liberal arts and never took calculus, that's .94%, LESS THAN 1%.
Now I'll be kind and intellectually honest enough to admit the 5 year average has been 4% in the industry, but are you freaking kidding me? At maximum a savings of 4%?

And let us not kid ourselves kiddies, with the amazing efficiency of the government managing a health insurance plan, you damn well know it's going to gobble up more than that paltry 4% LIKELY COSTING YOU MORE THAN A PRIVATE HEALTH INSURER WOULD.

Oh, but it's not really about the cost, is it? It's the fact somebody else will be paying for it. And that's what this is all about. I just wish people would be intellectually honest about this.

Now compare ins. company profits with their archnemesis COCA-COLA!
http://finapps.forbes.com/finapps/js...ios.jsp?tkr=KO

It would seem that Coca-Cola is "lining their pockets" with alot more money than the Ins. companies, seeing as how sugary drinks scored a 26.3%. Alot higher than medical...

Somehow I feel that you are going to completely disregard this though...

[transjen]

Well i went to Thailand for a major sugery this past Jan as the same sugery here is over double the cost and i won't have received better care or even a better outcome i just would have paid a hell of a lot more and fyi i saved a long time to pay for it
So you think everything is just fine and dandy as it is the poor should save there money and gladly fork it over to greedy DR's or just curl up and die, Oh you got cancer and are one of the working poor well sucks to be you so just curl up and die because only the rich deserve healthcare
Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by transjen

Well i went to Thailand for a major sugery this past Jan as the same sugery here is over double the cost and i won't have received better care or even a better outcome i just would have paid a hell of a lot more and fyi i saved a long time to pay for it

I'm glad that your surgery went A-OK. That is one of the reasons why I advocate competitive healthcare. The more competition there is, the less the costs are. That is why your surgery cost less. More competition selling their goods at a lower price.

Originally Posted by transjen

So you think everything is just fine and dandy as it is the poor should save there money and gladly fork it over to greedy DR's or just curl up and die, Oh you got cancer and are one of the working poor well sucks to be you so just curl up and die because only the rich deserve healthcare
Jerseygirl Jen

No I do not think everything is fine as it is. I think the Gov. needs to STOP MEDDLING IN BUSINESS and let the market function as it should. I'm one of the working poor and yet I have saved up enough money to cover my costs. Just because I can afford my healthcare doesn't mean I'm rich Jen. If someone is too stupid to save their money or invest it wisely, then they will get what's coming to them and I will not feel sorry in any way.

It seems you have preformed predjuices and don't care what I have to say, so until you stop basing every single one of your arguements off of emotion, I will not respond to any more of your comments.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

Oh you got cancer and are one of the working poor well sucks to be you so just curl up and die because only the rich deserve healthcare

I just skimmed through your posting. Whatever country you're talking about should do it like the US system where 80% are satisfied with their healthcare. Not just for the rich.

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

It seems you have preformed predjuices and don't care what I have to say, so until you stop basing every single one of your arguements off of emotion, I will not respond to any more of your comments.

That would be Jen's World. She's very happy there.

[TracyCoxx]

Remember that little thing in the constitution about freedom of press? The highly educated Obama must have missed that day in school. Probably while he was in Indonesia. They have denied access to the 'pay czar' from Fox News, while giving other networks access to him. Thank you to the other networks who stood up for Fox News and the constitution and insisted the White House give Fox News access.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Remember that little thing in the constitution about freedom of press? The highly educated Obama must have missed that day in school. Probably while he was in Indonesia. They have denied access to the 'pay czar' from Fox News, while giving other networks access to him. Thank you to the other networks who stood up for Fox News and the constitution and insisted the White House give Fox News access.

The so called "Fox News" is nothing more than a propaganda machine for conservatives. It's a piece of shit distorting everything Obama and the moderates in this country are trying to do. F--k Fox News.

[randolph]

The following site documents many of the most outrageous distortions, lies and misinformation put out by Fox News.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200910130047

[jimnaseum]

Politics has become so SOCIAL that platforms are being determined by the same people that program TV shows and commercials. The truth has become anything you want to hear. But Republican or Democrat, the middle class needs salvation. The middle class in the USA pays for EVERYTHING.
EVERYTHING

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

The following site documents many of the most outrageous distortions, lies and misinformation put out by Fox News.

http://mediamatters.org/research/200910130047

I will admit that Fox News is biased. You should also admit that CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC and CBS are liberally biased. Not to mention several national newspapers such as the New York Times. While I admit that Fox News is biased, I also think Fox News has a lot of reporting that a hypothetical non-biased news channel would be airing, and it only seems like it's right wing propaganda because you've become numbed to all the liberal reporting out there. And as far as their actual bias, it happens to be the type of news I'm looking for. Yes, it's biased, but aside from occasional errors, it is accurate. Otherwise you guys could easily cry BULLSHIT on the stuff I'm writing.

And I see you've dodged the issue I brought up by waving around Fox News errors. Careful, you'll end up not being taken seriously like Jen if you start to blow off obvious foul-ups. Don't pretend other media outlets don't make mistakes. The point is the Obama administration is once again restricting freedom of the press, and this time even the other networks saw BO went too far and said Enough. Take a cue from your favorite liberal news sources. Even they remember 'I may not approve of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it'.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I will admit that Fox News is biased. You should also admit that CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC and CBS are liberally biased. Not to mention several national newspapers such as the New York Times. While I admit that Fox News is biased, I also think Fox News has a lot of reporting that a hypothetical non-biased news channel would be airing, and it only seems like it's right wing propaganda because you've become numbed to all the liberal reporting out there. And as far as their actual bias, it happens to be the type of news I'm looking for. Yes, it's biased, but aside from occasional errors, it is accurate. Otherwise you guys could easily cry BULLSHIT on the stuff I'm writing.

And I see you've dodged the issue I brought up by waving around Fox News errors. Careful, you'll end up not being taken seriously like Jen if you start to blow off obvious foul-ups. Don't pretend other media outlets don't make mistakes. The point is the Obama administration is once again restricting freedom of the press, and this time even the other networks saw BO went too far and said Enough. Take a cue from your favorite liberal news sources. Even they remember 'I may not approve of what you say but I will defend to the death your right to say it'.

I would have to agree that most of the commercial media is biased, which I can live with. I check Drudge Report every day along with Huffington Post. The flagrant rhetoric spewing out of the likes of Glenn Beck make a mockery of news reporting. Increasingly, the news media is a blend of news and silly verbal antics. It is hard enough to comprehend what is going on in the world without all this wild nonsense.

[randolph]

Nice family!

[randolph]

Ahimsa
(Non-violence)

by Douglas Milburn, Editor

World peace through non-violent means is neither absurd nor unattainable. All other methods have failed. Thus we must begin anew.
-King.

Nonviolence is the greatest force at the disposal of mankind. It is mightier than the mightiest weapon of destruction devised by the ingenuity of man.
-Gandhi.


These people on television, our rulers, understand violence. Very well. Everywhere in the world they have massive schools of violence (called "armies"), and the students of those schools use the most advanced tools of violence that scientists and engineers can devise.

Like an unchecked cancer, hate corrodes the personality and eats away its vital unity. Hate destroys a man's sense of values and his objectivity. It causes him to describe the beautiful as ugly and the ugly as beautiful, and to confuse the true with the false and the false with the true.
-King.

How do we respond to this ancient governance of violence?

Two wise humans in the 20th century came to the same answer: non-violence, Gandhi and King. (Don't dismiss Gandhi and King for their imperfections; very wise humans aren't perfect just as very talented humans aren't either-viz. Mozart and Shakespeare).

Simple? Well, yes and no.

The violent of course view non-violence as at best simplistic and at worst dangerously naïve ("We live in a violent world; we must fight fire with fire...").

Non-violent resistance implies the very opposite of weakness. Defiance combined with non-retaliatory acceptance of repression from one's opponents is active, not passive. It requires strength, and there is nothing automatic or intuitive about the resoluteness required for using non-violent methods in political struggle and the quest for Truth.
-Gandhi.

I am neither smart enough nor wise enough to figure out what to do-and how to do it-in response to these people who are driving the world to destruction.

Consider this graph, which shows the number of war-deaths by century:

wardeaths.jpg (22072 bytes)

Note the logarithmic increase.

Question: As you survey the world now, can you see ANY reason why the bar for the 21st century will not continue upward? Ponder the political, religious, commercial, and scientific leadership of the world now, and ask yourself: Does the behavior of any of those people give any indication that the outcome of their leadership will be any less bloody than that of the leadership of previous centuries?

I cannot find any such indication, a result that, if correct, means we are facing a planetary blood-letting on an unprecedented scale. 200,000,000 war-dead in the 20th century is a horrific statistic. Given the exponential nature of the graph and the endemic lack of wisdom on the part of our present leaders we can only assume a 21st-century number that is beyond horrific, indeed beyond language.

Somewhere, younger, smarter, and potentially wiser humans must give thought to the problem and find new versions of old answers, just as King did vis-à-vis Gandhi.

In a huge, poor country, Gandhi, faced with the army and resources of the greatest empire in world history, came up with a solution that worked. Through ahimsa (non-violence), he achieved independence for India.

King, modeling his revolution on Gandhi's philosophy, pulled off a similar miracle, bringing an end to the long-standing legal implements of American racism.

Presented wisely, the philosophy of action called "non-violence" is powerful and, for many desperate humans, as irresistible as an oasis in the desert.

Where is the young, thoughtful Muslim infected to the point of boundlessly optimistic non-violence by the thoughts and deeds of Gandhi and King? Where is the similarly infected young, thoughtful American? Or Chinese? Or Indian?

We have flown the air like birds and swum the sea like fishes, but have yet to learn the simple act of walking the earth like brothers.
-King.

There is no way we can defeat these people, our rulers, on their own terms with their own weapons. Not only are we outnumbered, we are wholly out-armed. They can escalate to any level of violence they deem necessary to maintain the status quo (meaning, their world of violence): start with billyclubs and truncheons, go to tasers and water cannons, then tear gas, then tanks and mortars and landmines, then bombs and bombs and more bombs.

What difference does it make to the dead, the orphans and the homeless, whether the mad destruction is wrought under the name of totalitarianism or the holy name of liberty or democracy?
-Gandhi.

If we let them define the conflict as one of force, they will always win.

Gandhi knew this. King knew this.

The way of ahimsa, non-violence, is the only way. Because it is the only way that can work for us.

Because it is truly subversive: the violent, remember, scorn the non-violent as cowards, not worthy of attention (at least at first, until our numbers grow).

Because it is the only way that can change the world. To respond to violence with violence only produces more violence, no matter how good the initial intentions (viz. the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, the Chinese Revolution).

The first, and in many ways the hardest, step to non-violence is within. It is the step that must be taken by one, then by many, if we are to not merely survive but survive and thrive.

You must be the change you want to see in the world.
-Gandhi.

Literally speaking, ahimsa means non-violence. But to me it has much higher, infinitely higher meaning. It means that you may not offend anybody; you may not harbor uncharitable thought, even in connection with those who consider your enemies. To one who follows this doctrine, there are no enemies. A man who believes in the efficacy of this doctrine finds in the ultimate stage, when he is about to reach the goal, the whole world at his feet. If you express your love- Ahimsa-in such a manner that it impresses itself indelibly upon your so called enemy, he must return that love.
This doctrine tells us that we may guard the honor of those under our charge by delivering our own lives into the hands of the man who would commit the sacrilege. And that requires far greater courage than delivering of blows.
-Gandhi.

Once one assumes an attitude of intolerance, there is no knowing where it will take one. Intolerance, someone has said, is violence to the intellect and hatred is violence to the heart.
-Gandhi.

Nonviolence is not a garment to be put on and off at will. Its seat is in the heart, and it must be an inseparable part of our very being.
-Gandhi.

Victory attained by violence is tantamount to a defeat, for it is momentary.
-Gandhi.

Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
-King.

Violence as a way of achieving racial justice is both impractical and immoral. It is impractical because it is a descending spiral ending in destruction for all. It is immoral because it seeks to humiliate the opponent rather than win his understanding; it seeks to annihilate rather than to convert. Violence is immoral because it thrives on hatred rather than love.
-King.

Nonviolence is absolute commitment to the way of love. Love is not emotional bash; it is not empty sentimentalism. It is the active outpouring of one's whole being into the being of another.
-King.

And the leaders of the world today talk eloquently about peace. Every time we drop our bombs in North Vietnam, President Johnson talks eloquently about peace. What is the problem? They are talking about peace as a distant goal, as an end we seek, but one day we must come to see that peace is not merely a distant goal we seek, but that it is a means by which we arrive at that goal. We must pursue peaceful ends through peaceful means.
-King.

In struggling for human dignity the oppressed people of the world must not allow themselves to become bitter or indulge in hate campaigns. To retaliate with hate and bitterness would do nothing but intensify the hate in the world. Along the way of life, someone must have sense enough and morality enough to cut off the chain of hate. This can be done only by projecting the ethics of love to the center of our lives.
-King.


More:
"The Essential Gandhi"
$10.40 at amazon.com.

More:
"A Testament of Hope:
The Essential Writings and Speeches of Martin Luther King"
$15.57 at the amazon.com

[The Conquistador]

All that stuff sounds great and all, but is entirely unrealistic.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

All that stuff sounds great and all, but is entirely unrealistic.

Unrealistic? well it worked for India and for blacks in America. I'm not so sure it would work for a-rab terrorists.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

Unrealistic? well it worked for India and for blacks in America. I'm not so sure it would work for a-rab terrorists.

Unrealistic? Yes. It fails to notice that no matter how much people strive for peace, someone will always be there to take advantage of the situation. And no it did not work well for India or Black America. India just got the Brits to leave (look at how impoverished they are now) and the Assassination of Dr. King just lead the way for ideological slavery of a community that was actually making leaps and bounds up until that point.

However you are correct about the Middle Eastern folks.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

The flagrant rhetoric spewing out of the likes of Glenn Beck make a mockery of news reporting. Increasingly, the news media is a blend of news and silly verbal antics. It is hard enough to comprehend what is going on in the world without all this wild nonsense.

Glenn Beck doesn't do news. Although most of what he says seems to be accurate.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Glenn Beck doesn't do news. Although most of what he says seems to be accurate.

From dickipedia

Personal life

Beck talks about his life all the time, so even the most casual listener or viewer knows that he grew up in the Seattle area with a serious case of attention deficit disorder, and his mother drowned herself when he was 13, and one of his brothers committed suicide, and another brother died of a heart attack, and he was a major pothead and an alcoholic who downed a gallon of Jack Daniel's a week, all of which cost him his first marriage.

After his divorce, Beck met his second wife, Tania. As a condition for marrying him, Tania said that she and Beck would have to jointly find a religion that suited both of them. They picked Mormonism, an odd choice considering that it's the kind of religion where you feel sorry for those poor kids who are born into it and can't imagine anyone joining it voluntarily
[edit]
Radio and TV

Beck did the traditional radio bounce-around, doing deejay duty in Washington, Corpus Christi, Baltimore, Houston, Phoenix and Hartford. His career was undistinguished until he subbed for a talk show host and "suddenly realized I've been in the wrong format." In January 2000, he landed on WFLA-AM in Tampa, where The Glenn Beck Program combined right-wing talk with a form of humor, one example of which is: "Hezbollaerobics...because no one fears a tubby terrorist!"

Okay, you're not laughing, but the show started out in 18th place and went to #1 not long before September 11, 2001.

Beck, like Rep. Gary Condit (D-CA), whose sex scandal story evaporated in the heat of the 9/11 flames, was a direct beneficiary of the planes flying into the buildings, since the result was that jingoistic and xenophobic talk show hosts were suddenly in higher demand. The Glenn Beck Program was nationally syndicated and quickly found a very large audience of people eager to believe that ignorant criminals were not running the country.

Newly empowered as a nationally syndicated right-wing radio dick just as White House dick George W. Bush was drumming up support for what would turn out to be the most humiliating, reputation-trashing fiasco in the nation's history, Beck organized pro-Iraq War "Rally for America" events in 18 cities for his Bush-buddy bosses at Clear Channel.

Beck used the forum of the people's airwaves to go after the Dixie Chicks, who'd had the effrontery to share with a London audience their shame at what was being done in America's name. He also felt compelled to weigh in on the Terri Schiavo case, leading the charge of rant radio against letting the poor woman die.

In May 2006, Beck's empire expanded into television when he began hosting the eponymous prime-time hour Glenn Beck on CNN Headline News. Not long after, he declared himself to be "sick of this whole global warming thing." Beck claims it takes generations before we can tell anything about climate change, so what we should do now is just go about our lives in a business-as-usual fashion and not worry so much about finding out later that we've destroyed the planet.

In November 2007, Beck signed a five-year deal with Premiere Radio Networks said to be worth $50 million.

In his 2007 Washington Post profile of Beck, David Segal wrote, "Listen to a few of Beck's shows and what strikes you most is the enormous ratio of words to substance - how Beck can monologue for minutes at a time and leave behind almost nothing except the impression of great vehemence."

In the spring of 2009, Beck will depart CNN for Fox News. The move will provide more money and even lower journalistic expectations making it a win-win for Beck, but a lose-lose for people who like information. Though, as some have noted, this will leave a gaping hole in CNN's "department of embarrassing conservatives we keep around to help us appear unbiased," insiders expect that other irritable commentators will continue to step up in this area.

Sounds like a real winner. Millions of people listen to this guy?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Sounds like a real winner. Millions of people listen to this guy?

Yeah, he's done a great job exposing the gang of nut jobs that BO has for czars, and who the Apollo alliance is, who ACORN is, and how whackjobs from Weather Underground are still alive and well and influencing BO's policies and bills.

I do not agree with him about Global Warming though. As I may have said before, global warming is not a political issue. It's science. Politicians and political talk show hosts from either side should not be talking about it. They should shut up and let actual climatologists talk about it.

About him being a Mormon? The christian crap is something I have to grit my teeth over with these conservatives. As long as they don't say we should be conservatives because in the bible it says blah blah blah... And yes, I know some, including Bush do say that. I ignore that and pay attention to more down to earth reasons for the conservatism agenda.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Glenn Beck doesn't do news. Although most of what he says seems to be accurate.

"Clearly, Glenn Beck is not your typical teleprompter-reading news host. Beck admitted to CBS anchor Katie Couric that he was not a journalist, yet he disseminates news, information and opinions to a large portion of the American populace. What is he, then, if not a journalist?

Beck seems to borrow heavily from a variety of trades, functioning as a quasi-comedian, actor, news host, journalist, radio disc jockey, entertainer, author and preacher, just to name a few. He can be as funny and entertaining as the Comedy Channel's satirical hosts Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, but he also possesses the gravity and moral certitude of a religious pastor.

More so than most journalists and news hosts, Glenn Beck knows how to effectively sell the news to his audience. Moreover, he uses the medium of television to make the process of news-gathering simultaneously entertaining and easy for his viewers. Of course, any semblance of objectivity goes out the window when a provocative and emotive character like Beck takes such a primetime stage.

If Beck is any indication of the future of television news, given his show's popularity and high ratings, we will most likely see an upswing in the amount of emotion and entertainment infused in news production at the expense of careful, objective, balanced and thoughtful analysis among journalistic sources.

But do most viewers want thoughtful analysis? Or do they want to be entertained?"

The trouble is most viewers now don't know the difference between news and entertainment.

[randolph]

"I do not agree with him about Global Warming though. As I may have said before, global warming is not a political issue. It's science. Politicians and political talk show hosts from either side should not be talking about it. They should shut up and let actual climatologists talk about it."

Unfortunately, some morning we are going to wake up to climate change and wonder why we didn't try to do something about it.
We are in a canoe drifting down a river and the noise of the waterfall is getting louder and louder.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

"Clearly, Glenn Beck is not your typical teleprompter-reading news host. Beck admitted to CBS anchor Katie Couric that he was not a journalist, yet he disseminates news, information and opinions to a large portion of the American populace. What is he, then, if not a journalist?

He's a political commentator.

Originally Posted by randolph

Beck seems to borrow heavily from a variety of trades, functioning as a quasi-comedian, actor, news host, journalist, radio disc jockey, entertainer, author and preacher, just to name a few. He can be as funny and entertaining as the Comedy Channel's satirical hosts Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert, but he also possesses the gravity and moral certitude of a religious pastor.

A versatile political commentator.

Originally Posted by randolph

But do most viewers want thoughtful analysis? Or do they want to be entertained?"

I'll take some entertainment. When he goes off the deep end I laugh but I want to see more of his analysis. At times he presents a very thorough and scary picture of what's going on with the government. And I realize it takes time to gather this information, so I tolerate his occasional bouts of goofiness.