Barack Obama

[jimnaseum]

There are no Republican garbagemen. Republicans speak for half the country, the half with money and power. It shows your weakness as a human being and American to bend over for GOP Inc. while ignoring the real problems this nation has. If you're a Republican and make less than 200K/year, you're a complete fool. Huddle up with your guns and religion and stem cells. If you have a cardboard cut-out of Ronald Reagan in your shitty little trailer park home you have the Real Reagan.
You're too stupid to see anything except what you're spoon fed.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by CCC

Well at this minute Obama is doing his speech before his friends and allies listening intentlyand the poor cadets from West Point who must sit there and listen to this idiot. The independant thinking people have barf bags in hand. Hopefully there will be enough country to take back in three years.

Think I'm going to be sick---see ya

At least he can read which is more then can be said about W and Palin


Jerseygirl Jen

[CCC]

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

There are no Republican garbagemen. Republicans speak for half the country, the half with money and power. It shows your weakness as a human being and American to bend over for GOP Inc. while ignoring the real problems this nation has. If you're a Republican and make less than 200K/year, you're a complete fool. Huddle up with your guns and religion and stem cells. If you have a cardboard cut-out of Ronald Reagan in your shitty little trailer park home you have the Real Reagan.
You're too stupid to see anything except what you're spoon fed.

There are a lot of Independants that are garbagemen. The majority of voters in this country are independants. It's too bad that during the last election there were no string candidates at all. McCain is just a RINO. Look what happened in the last election. Republicans ousted Dems that were in power in 2 of the three major spots. In the other it took the RINO who pulled out of the race one day and threw her votes to the Dem to narrowly beast out an Indepent candidate. American is waking up and getting tired of both parties.

[CCC]

Originally Posted by transjen

At least he can read which is more then can be said about W and Palin


Jerseygirl Jen

Yes he can read but have you ever seen what happens to him when the telepromter goes down?

[TracyCoxx]

What do you all think about Obama's troop surge in Afghanistan? or ?

[jimnaseum]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

What do you all think about Obama's troop surge in Afghanistan? or ?

Fishguts Cheney shood have gone toe to toe with Pakistan right after we blew killing Bin Laden in Tora Bora. That's what our Nuclear Arsenal is for. We could have cleaned up the entire 9-11 mess in six months by simply giving the American People the head of Osama Bin Laden, like they always wanted. For Obama, it's square One. If he's convinced Pakistan to attack Al Queda from the right, then our troops can smoke A-rabs this year, opium next year.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

What do you all think about Obama's troop surge in Afghanistan? or ?

One- Cut a deal with the Taliban, money talks in Afghanistan.

Two- Clean out Al Qaida in Pakistan

Three- Support Pakistan's moderates.

Four- Get serious about energy.

Five- Stop eating beef (cow gas = 50% of global warming)

Obama's plan?

[randolph]

But while the president may be showing disloyalty to his political base, he's remaining faithful to the defense industry interests that so generously funded his campaign.

According to the Center for Responsive Politics' OpenSecrets.org database, the top recipient of defense industry money in the 2008 election cycle was Barack Obama, whose haul of $1,029,997 far surpassed Republican contender Sen. John McCain's $696,948.

During the 2008 cycle, the industry contributed a total of $23.7 million to federal candidates -- far more than the $17.4 million it invested during the 2006 cycle or the $18.1 million in the 2004 cycle.

The top five defense industry contributors during the 2008 elections were Lockheed Martin at $2.5 million, Boeing at $2.1 million, Northrop Grumman at $1.8 million, and Raytheon and General Dynamics at $1.7 million each.

And it appears their investment may be paying off: The Associated Press reports that analyst Howard A. Rubel of the global investment bank Jefferies & Co. sent out a client note today stating that the fiscal 2010 Defense Department Budget will likely boost demand for precision munitions, communications gear, helicopters, armor and surveillance systems.

Among the companies whose stock Rubel rated as "Buy"? General Dynamics and Northrop Grumman.

We have been fucked again. Guess who is going to pay for it!

[randolph]

This is one of the best explanation of the Muslim terrorist situation I have ever read. His references to past history are accurate and clear. Not long, easy to understand, and well worth the read. The author of this email is Dr. Emanuel Tanay, a well-known and well-respected psychiatrist.


A German's View on Islam
A man, whose family was German aristocracy prior to World War II, owned a number of large industries and estates. When asked how many German people were true Nazis, the answer he gave can guide our attitude toward fanaticism. 'Very few people were true Nazis,' he said, 'but many enjoyed the return of German pride, and many more were too busy to care. I was one of those who just thought the Nazis were a bunch of fools. So, the majority just sat back and let it all happen. Then, before we knew it, they owned us, and we had lost control, and the end of the world had come. My family lost everything. I ended up in a concentration camp and the Allies destroyed my factories.'
We are told again and again by 'experts' and 'talking heads' that Islam is the religion of peace and that the vast majority of Muslims just want to live in peace. Although this unqualified assertion may be true, it is entirely irrelevant. It is meaningless fluff, meant to make us feel better, and meant to somehow diminish the spectre of fanatics rampaging across the globe in the name of Islam.
The fact is that the fanatics rule Islam at this moment in history. It is the fanatics who march. It is the fanatics who wage any one of 50 shooting wars worldwide. It is the fanatics who systematically slaughter Christian or tribal groups throughout Africa and are gradually taking over the entire continent in an Islamic wave. It is the fanatics who bomb, behead, murder, or honour-kill. It is the fanatics who take over mosque after mosque. It is the fanatics who zealously spread the stoning and hanging of rape victims and homosexuals. It is the fanatics who teach their young to kill and to become suicide bombers.
The hard, quantifiable fact is that the peaceful majority, the 'silent majority,' is cowed and extraneous.
Communist Russia was comprised of Russians who just wanted to live in peace, yet the Russian Communists were responsible for the murder of about 20 million people. The peaceful majority were irrelevant. China's huge population was peaceful as well, but Chinese Communists managed to kill a staggering 70 million people.
The average Japanese individual prior to World War II was not a warmongering sadist. Yet, Japan murdered and slaughtered its way across South East Asia in an orgy of killing that included the systematic murder of 12 million Chinese civilians; most killed by sword, shovel, and bayonet.
And who can forget Rwanda, which collapsed into butchery. Could it not be said that the majority of Rwandans were 'peace loving'?
History lessons are often incredibly simple and blunt, yet for all our powers of reason, we often miss the most basic and uncomplicated of points:
Peace-loving Muslims have been made irrelevant by their silence.
Peace-loving Muslims will become our enemy if they don't speak up, because like my friend fromGermany, they will awaken one day and find that the fanatics own them, and the end of their world will have begun.
Peace-loving Germans, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, Rwandans, Serbs, Afghans, Iraqis, Palestinians, Somalis, Nigerians, Algerians, and many others have died because the peaceful majority did not speak up until it was too late. As for us who watch it all unfold, we must pay attention to the only group that counts -- the fanatics who threaten our way of life.
Lastly, anyone who doubts that the issue is serious and just deletes this email without sending it on, is contributing to the passiveness that allows the problems to expand. So, extend yourself a bit and send this on and on and on! Let us hope that thousands, world-wide, read this and think about it, and send it on - before it's too late.

Emanuel Tanay, M.D. 2980 Provincial St. Ann Arbor, MI 48104

[randolph]

Obama's War

by Jim Hightower

Hi-ho, hi-ho, it's off to war we go! Pound the drums loudly, stand with your country proudly!

Wait, wait, wait - hold it right there. Cut the music, slow the rush, and let's all ponder what Barack Obama, Roberts Gates, Stanley McChrystal and Co. are getting us into ... and whether we really want to go there. After all, just because the White House and the Pentagon brass are waving the flag and insisting that a major escalation of America's military mission in Afghanistan is a "necessity" doesn't mean it is ... or that We the People must accept it.

Remember the wisdom of Mark Twain about war-whooping generals and politicians: "Loyalty to the country, always. Loyalty to the government when it deserves it."

How many more dead and mangled American soldiers does the government's "new" Afghan policy deserve? How many more tens of billions of dollars should we let them siphon from our public treasury to fuel their war policy? How much more of our country's good name will they squander on what is essentially a civil war?

We've been lied to for nearly a decade about "success" in Iraq and Afghanistan - why do the hawks deserve our trust that this time will be different?

Their rationales for escalation are hardly confidence boosters. The goal, we're told, is to defeat the al-Qaida terrorist network that threatens our national security. Yes, but al-Qaida is not in Afghanistan! Nor is it one network. It has metastasized, with strongholds now in Pakistan, Indonesia, Morocco, Yemen and Somalia, plus even having enclaves in England and France.

Well, claims Obama himself, we must protect the democratic process in Afghanistan. Does he think we have suckerwrappers around our heads? America's chosen leader over there is President Hamid Karzai - a preening incompetent who was "elected" this year only through flagrant fraud and whose government is controlled by warlords, rife with corruption and opposed by the great majority of Afghans.

During the election campaign from July through October, 195 Americans were killed and more than 1,000 wounded to protect this guy's "democratic process." Why should even one more American die for Karzai?

Finally, Washington's war establishment asserts that adding some 30,000 more troops will let us greatly expand and train the Afghan army and police force during the next couple of years so they can secure their own country and we can leave.
Mission accomplished!

Nearly every independent military analyst, however, says this assertion is not just fantasy, it's delusional - it'll take at least 10 years to raise Afghanistan's largely illiterate and corrupt security forces to a level of barely adequate, costing us taxpayers more than $4 billion a year to train and support them.

Obama has been taken over by the military industrial hawks and national security theorists who play war games with other people's lives and money. I had hoped Obama might be a more forceful leader who would reject the same old interventionist mindset of those who profit from permanent war. But his newly announced Afghan policy shows he is not that leader.

So, we must look elsewhere, starting with ourselves. The first job of a citizen is to keep your mouth open. Obama is wrong on his policy - deadly wrong - and those of you who see this have both a moral and patriotic duty to reach out to others to inform, organize and mobilize our grassroots objections, taking common sense to high places.

Also, look to leaders in Congress who are standing up against Obama's war and finally beginning to reassert the legislative branch's constitutional responsibility to oversee and direct military policy. For example, Rep. Jim McGovern is pushing for a specific, congressionally mandated exit strategy; Rep. Barbara Lee wants to use Congress' control of the public purse strings to stop Obama's escalation; and Rep. David Obey is calling for a war tax on the richest Americans to put any escalation on-budget, rather than on a credit card for China to finance and future generations to pay.

This is no time to be deferential to executive authority. Stand up. Speak out. It's our country, not theirs. We are America - ultimately, we have the power and the responsibility.

I agree, Obama appears to be a weak President following the hawks. We need to resist.

[Hedonistman]

Obamaman a war loving President,,, lol. This megolomaniac is into EVERYTHING. And he's not got 1 single policy issue right yet.... No wait, his very 1st call was I think a good 1 ---allowing more stem cell research. Other than that though, he's a Bushboy clone..... Anyone here feel 'stimulated' yet,,
ie from/by Obamaman and his 1,000 or more plans,,, ? lol

[jimnaseum]

It's hard to get too serious about International Affairs when you're staring at pictures of Raging Shemale Schlongfests, and since I've missed all the Presidential briefings on the Middle East, I admit I have no idea what's going on over there. It's possible Obama could do a JFK and take us to the brink of Nuclear War, it's obvious we're not sending 100,000 troops over there to respond to 19 guys armed with box-cutters. We're sending 100,000 troops over there to respond to one imaginary guy armed with a nuclear suitcase.

One day there will be a most fascinating book written about what Time Magazine calls "The Decade from Hell." I can't wait to read it to find out what the hell happened these last ten years. It'll be a page turner.

[TracyCoxx]

There's about 100 Al Qaeda in Afghanistan. The rest are Taliban. I never really knew what Bush's beef was with the Taliban. Sure they suck, but we're not going to change that mentality over there, and they are entitled to it, as long as they don't interfere with us. Our war is not with the Taliban, it's with Al Qaeda. And right now it looks like they're in Pakistan. Pakistan should answer for that. We're giving them a lot of money to help us track Al Qaeda down. If they're allowing Al Qaeda to run around in their country, I say we do some air strikes, and renegotiate.

So what are we doing in Afghanistan? BO hasn't really said. Just that he's sending 30000 more troops there (finally), and then starting to bring them home before the 2012 elections. We have to have a goal there. Does he intend to completely wipe out the Taliban? Then he's in for something like Iraq. Maybe worse if he doesn't handle the Afghan war as well as Bush did.

Question... while BO is attacking the Taliban, is he apologizing too?

I will say Bush, or the military commanders or whoever, royally up Tora Bora. That could have been a clean victory.

[randolph]

I found the part of his speech about the Afgan army needing more training really ludicrous. We already have more soldiers in Afghanistan than the Afghan army. Besides, the Afghans are some of the toughest fighters in the world. They don't need more training, they need to be on the "right" side. If they don't want the Taliban then let them work it out. We need to focus on Pakistan and keep those rockets and a-bombs secure. Obama seems to be going down the same path as Bush/Cheney.

[jimnaseum]

Since August '45, the office of President only has one real job -preventing a nuclear war. The Government is so bereaucrocized that you could put a cardboard cut-out in the oval office and nobody would notice (Reagan)
In the summer of '45 we had our brand new B-29 bombers fly over Tokyo one night and drop incindiary bombs, the city was built largely of wood and we killed 100,000 "Jap" civilians. (More than the individual A-bombs killed.) That was a good policy back then. Today, you BOW to the Japanese leader. Because we're going to need the japanese, chinese, russians, and anybody else we can find to prevent Iran, Israel, N Korea, Pakistan, and India from selling Thermonuclear Missles on eBay.

[DSL]

Well here is a look at our national debt clock this is
how much the u.s. owes.

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[transjen]

I find it funny that from 01 thru 08 when W was spending quicker then the money could be printed most of the GOP didn't say word one but know it's there top concern and yet not one of them has said anything about ending the wars and ending W's tax cuts the biggest cause of this mess, So let's get real here people if you are truely worried about the sea of red ink end the wars and end every one of W's tax cuts and that will go a long way draining the bottomless sea of red ink

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

I find it funny that from 01 thru 08 when W was spending quicker then the money could be printed most of the GOP didn't say word one but know it's there top concern and yet not one of them has said anything about ending the wars and ending W's tax cuts the biggest cause of this mess, So let's get real here people if you are truely worried about the sea of red ink end the wars and end every one of W's tax cuts and that will go a long way draining the bottomless sea of red ink

Oh, btw... have I mentioned that in 2 months BO has increased the debt 2.5 times more than all of Bush's 8 years in office?

Not only that but almost 90% of the $350 billion of Bush's portion of the Wall Street bailout has already been paid back. Of course the democrats think this is money to spend. NO! It goes towards paying back the debt!

And what's more? The fucking house has approved a $290 billion increase in the debt limit.

[jimnaseum]

One Percent of the population owns fifty percent of the wealth. The National debt is not what we owe ourselves, it's what the rich owe us. THE REVOLUTION WILL NOT BE TELEVISED!!!! Merry Christmas, Everyone!! Oh Oh Oh, the Big Big O.........

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Well, lets see.
I am skeptical of the health care plan.
I am a white male.
I am against illegal immigrants taking over the country.
I am skeptical of global warming, climate change,yes.
I believe in woman's rights, abortion should should be discouraged.
I am a Democrat.

Joe Lieberman:
Skeptical of the health care plan.
A white male.
Doesn't seem to mind illegal immigrants taking over the country.
Believes US should accept responsibility for Global Warming

No longer considered a democrat.
Shut down by democrats in the middle of his speech.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Joe Lieberman:
Skeptical of the health care plan.
A white male.
Doesn't seem to mind illegal immigrants taking over the country.
Believes US should accept responsibility for Global Warming

No longer considered a democrat.
Shut down by democrats in the middle of his speech.

I am switching my registration to independent.

Politicians - Republicans/Democrats hears to you!

[randolph]

"FRANKEN AMENDMENT BECOMES LAW.... In October, Sen. Al Franken (D-Minn.) proposed a key amendment to the 2010 Defense Appropriations bill. Yesterday, it was signed into law.

Motivated by the harrowing violence Jamie Leigh Jones suffered in 2005 while working for Halliburton/KBR in Iraq, Franken pushed a measure to withhold defense contracts from companies that "restrict their employees from taking workplace sexual assault, battery and discrimination cases to court." Franken's measure passed, 68 to 30. The 30 opponents -- representing 75% of the entire GOP Senate caucus -- were Republican men.

There were some implantation questions from the Pentagon, but after some additional efforts, and overcoming a Republican filibuster, Franken's measure became law after President Obama signed the Department of Defense Appropriations Act over the weekend.

Digby had a good take on this.

The reason I think it's good news isn't just on the substance (which it certainly is) but on the politics. Franken's amendment is driving the Republicans crazy because they basically voted to protect rapists and are now paying a political price for that. And now they are whining that Franken was somehow "uncollegial" because the amendment put them in an embarrassing position (which makes me wonder how many other things issues are swept under the rug because it would make members of the opposition uncomfortable.)

That's the kind of thing the Democrats should do more of. Expose the Republicans' hypocrisy and cruelty by forcing these issues on to the agenda.

Remember, Republicans can barely contain their outrage over this -- Franken proposed a common-sense measure; it passed easily; and opponents of the amendment have faced some severe criticicism as a result. "The nerve of that guy," conservative senators keep saying.

For his part, this is Franken's first key legislative success. Here's to many more like it."

At least some things are done right.

[pighead63]

I honestly hoped Obama would bring about change.. so powerful charismatic and motivating speaker in the campaign. but that seems to be gone.

* Health Care debacle - heard something got passed or almost passed?

* Afghanistan - 30k troops, after winning Nobel Peace Prize, and his explanation speech used identical language to Bush.

* Banks - had a meeting and 3 of the biggest just blew him off, after they were give 750 billion interest free loans which they then lent out on Credit Cards at 30%

I am not an Amrerican but terrifies me. Watching Bush get away with everything he did was sickening but Obama is no different.

JFK and Martin Luther were 2 of the biggest and best promoters of civil rights and transparency of government. They were both assasinated. JFKs brother picked it up and he was assinated. Ever since the President has towed the same corporate & military line.

Obama should have done what whether he promised or not people believed he would..

* Pull out of the unnecessary Wars
* Fix Health Care
* Regulate Wall Street

He should as Cheney did say stuff bi-partisan, this is the change people are screaming for and I am going to do it. Maybe his slow and steady approach might pay off in the long run.. but seeing him holding a useless 1 hour meeting with the banks and even then have 3 of the biggest blow him off I don't hold much 'hope'.

[TracyCoxx]

Senate Passes Health Insurance Overhaul

The Senate passed a health insurance overhaul on Thursday morning, 60-39, as both Democrats and Republicans held unified in their positions on the massive bill that mandates coverage for about 9 percent of the U.S. population now without insurance.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...h-care-reform/

Fuck you Senate. Fuck you very much.
You have violated your oath of office and passed a bill that is unconstitutional. What's more, you haven't represented your constituents. In EVERY poll over the past several months, US citizens DO NOT WANT HEALTH CARE REFORM! I don't need to wait for November 2010 for all you dipshits to be cleared out of congress because all the democrats in the senate should be thrown in jail.

Originally Posted by pighead63

He should as Cheney did say stuff bi-partisan, this is the change people are screaming for and I am going to do it.

He did say 'stuff bi-partisan'. They voted 60-39 along party lines. Only thing is he went against what the people were screaming for.

[TracyCoxx]

Damn Tytler, does he have to be so right?

Originally Posted by Tytler

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship.

The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:

* From bondage to spiritual faith;
* From spiritual faith to great courage;
* From courage to liberty;
* From liberty to abundance;
* From abundance to complacency;
* From complacency to apathy;
* From apathy to dependence;
* From dependence back into bondage.

[randolph]

Health industry lobbyists spent $600,000,000 on Congress to keep out the public option. They succeeded and Obama will sign it anyway. Corporate America owns the government, we are here just to pay the bills of the rich. How much longer are we going to put up with this shit?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Health industry lobbyists spent $600,000,000 on Congress to keep out the public option. They succeeded and Obama will sign it anyway. Corporate America owns the government, we are here just to pay the bills of the rich. How much longer are we going to put up with this shit?

You want the government to run health care? Give me an example of an efficient, well run government agency. You'll say corporations aren't well run or efficient, but many of them are. They have to be other wise they will not be competitive. Government agencies OTOH do not have to be competitive. They don't even have to be mediocre. They will receive their budgeted amount regardless of how well they are doing, and regardless of whether the country actually even has money to pay them! This guarantees that they will be inefficient because they don't need to be. It also guarantees that they will be filled with schmucks who can't make it in the real world where they are held accountable for their performance.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

You want the government to run health care? Give me an example of an efficient, well run government agency. You'll say corporations aren't well run or efficient, but many of them are. They have to be other wise they will not be competitive. Government agencies OTOH do not have to be competitive. They don't even have to be mediocre. They will receive their budgeted amount regardless of how well they are doing, and regardless of whether the country actually even has money to pay them! This guarantees that they will be inefficient because they don't need to be. It also guarantees that they will be filled with schmucks who can't make it in the real world where they are held accountable for their performance.

Damn skippy Tracy!

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Senate Passes Health Insurance Overhaul

The Senate passed a health insurance overhaul on Thursday morning, 60-39, as both Democrats and Republicans held unified in their positions on the massive bill that mandates coverage for about 9 percent of the U.S. population now without insurance.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009...h-care-reform/

Fuck you Senate. Fuck you very much.
You have violated your oath of office and passed a bill that is unconstitutional. What's more, you haven't represented your constituents. In EVERY poll over the past several months, US citizens DO NOT WANT HEALTH CARE REFORM! I don't need to wait for November 2010 for all you dipshits to be cleared out of congress because all the democrats in the senate should be thrown in jail.


He did say 'stuff bi-partisan'. They voted 60-39 along party lines. Only thing is he went against what the people were screaming for.

Geez relax girl the GOP is already planning to do away with it before it ever takes effect the Senator from Texas is planning to go to the unsupreme court claiming health care for everyone is unconstoutional and if that doesn't work they plan in the next two election to retake the house, senate and white house and by a partasain vote take healthcare away from the poor and give it back to the rich so relax and don't blow a gasket the GOP will restore everything back to big business and the rich

Jerseygirl Jen

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

You want the government to run health care? Give me an example of an efficient, well run government agency. You'll say corporations aren't well run or efficient, but many of them are. They have to be other wise they will not be competitive. Government agencies OTOH do not have to be competitive. They don't even have to be mediocre. They will receive their budgeted amount regardless of how well they are doing, and regardless of whether the country actually even has money to pay them! This guarantees that they will be inefficient because they don't need to be. It also guarantees that they will be filled with schmucks who can't make it in the real world where they are held accountable for their performance.

Well if government is so inefficient why did the health industry spend six hundred million dollars to get the public option dropped? Sounds like the public option was a threat to their obscene profits screwing sick people.

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

Well if government is so inefficient why did the health industry spend six hundred million dollars to get the public option dropped? Sounds like the public option was a threat to the people's individual liberties and their ability to choose what they deem necessary; not what some G-man says.

Fixed it for you.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman

Fixed it for you.

Hey man, If you want to quote me fine. just don't screw around with what I have to say. If you disagree, fine, say what you want, OK!

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

Geez relax girl the GOP is already planning to do away with it before it ever takes effect

I doubt they have the votes to enforce the people's will.

Originally Posted by transjen

the Senator from Texas is planning to go to the unsupreme court claiming health care for everyone is unconstoutional and if that doesn't work they plan in the next two election to retake the house, senate and white house and by a partasain vote take healthcare away from the poor and give it back to the rich

Hopefully they'll take health care away from the illegal aliens too that will wind up with it.

Health care for everyone - of the quality that most Americans are used to, is just not possible. The government is broke and the quality of health care is going to go down if you provide blanket health care for everyone. You don't solve the problem for 15% of the population by crippling a system that 85% of the population is fine with. You don't provide health care for illegal aliens (we all know this is next, and they're practically getting it anyway). If the government is broke, which it is btw, you don't launch yet another $multi-trillion program. Is it just me or are these things not obvious?

Originally Posted by randolph

Well if government is so inefficient why did the health industry spend six hundred million dollars to get the public option dropped? Sounds like the public option was a threat to their obscene profits screwing sick people.

Because the public option is a threat to the quality of health care in America, and they don't want government to move in and install a paralyzing bureaucracy.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Hopefully they'll take health care away from the illegal aliens too that will wind up with it.

It's a Christmas miracle we actualy aggree on something


Jerseygirl Jen

[The Conquistador]

Originally Posted by randolph

Hey man, If you want to quote me fine. just don't screw around with what I have to say. If you disagree, fine, say what you want, OK!

Tee hee hee... Where's the love ole chap?

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I doubt they have the votes to enforce the people's will.

Hopefully they'll take health care away from the illegal aliens too that will wind up with it.

Health care for everyone - of the quality that most Americans are used to, is just not possible. The government is broke and the quality of health care is going to go down if you provide blanket health care for everyone. You don't solve the problem for 15% of the population by crippling a system that 85% of the population is fine with. You don't provide health care for illegal aliens (we all know this is next, and they're practically getting it anyway). If the government is broke, which it is btw, you don't launch yet another $multi-trillion program. Is it just me or are these things not obvious?

Because the public option is a threat to the quality of health care in America, and they don't want government to move in and install a paralyzing bureaucracy.

Oh, please! You think the health care industry cares about quality? All they care about is profits. They are corporations and they are beholden to their stockholders for dividends and stock value growth. If they don't come through, their shareholders will sell their stock. As long as we have this kind of system running our health care we will see escalating costs until none of us can afford it.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by transjen

It's a Christmas miracle we actualy aggree on something


Jerseygirl Jen

Hey, hey Jen is that you in your avatar?

[transjen]

Originally Posted by randolph

Hey, hey Jen is that you in your avatar?

I wish, No it's the actress who played Buffy the vampire slayer


Jerseygirl Jen

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

It's a Christmas miracle we actualy aggree on something


Jerseygirl Jen

Cool

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

Oh, please! You think the health care industry cares about quality? All they care about is profits.

Well that's the funny thing about capitalism. There's a relationship between quality and profits. If it's government run, they'll get paid either way. No incentive for profits. I keep bringing this up. Do you not agree with that?

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Well that's the funny thing about capitalism. There's a relationship between quality and profits. If it's government run, they'll get paid either way. No incentive for profits. I keep bringing this up. Do you not agree with that?

You seem the think that "profits" are the sin qua non of human motivation. I belong to an HMO called Kaiser Permanente. It was set up during WWII to serve the workers at Kaiser steel mills. Since then it has expanded to become a major HMO in the far West. I have belonged to it for many years. The clinic service is excellent and the hospitals are first class and they will pay for emergency health costs outside of their territory. Also, they saved my life after a burst appendix. There is no quibbling over health services, if you need something done, you get it done.
Now is this HMO one of you beloved profiteering corporations?
NO! It is a NONPROFIT organization run by doctors!
It is very efficient and has a state of the art computer record and health maintenance system. There are no lines, no waiting when you have an appointment, they are ready.
I know of no for profit HMO that comes close to Kaiser and a friend who works for a private HMO confirms that view.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Well that's the funny thing about capitalism. There's a relationship between quality and profits. If it's government run, they'll get paid either way. No incentive for profits. I keep bringing this up. Do you not agree with that?

Originally Posted by randolph

You seem the think that "profits" are the sin qua non of human motivation.

Sorry... above I meant to say "If it's government run, they'll get paid either way. No incentive for quality."

Originally Posted by randolph

Now is this HMO one of you beloved profiteering corporations?
NO! It is a NONPROFIT organization run by doctors!
It is very efficient and has a state of the art computer record and health maintenance system. There are no lines, no waiting when you have an appointment, they are ready.
I know of no for profit HMO that comes close to Kaiser and a friend who works for a private HMO confirms that view.

Awesome. Dedicated health practitioners can certainly provide great quality health care. I do not believe that profit is the only motivation. What I have said all along is that the government has never been, and never will be efficient. In some cases it may be state of the art, but certainly not in national health care.

Does this look efficient to you?

[randolph]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

Well that's the funny thing about capitalism. There's a relationship between quality and profits. If it's government run, they'll get paid either way. No incentive for profits. I keep bringing this up. Do you not agree with that?

Yes, I will have to agree with you there. I was president of my own agricultural company for many years. I went to Washington several times to deal with Agricultural regulations. The "Washington" bureaucracy is appalling, consisting of mostly "administrators" supervising people that do nothing.
OK, I just shot down my own view of gov. run health care, well not really, Medicare is a fairly well run system. The value of a gov. run alternative to private insurance is that it provides a damper on excess profits that private companies strive for. Our goal is to hold down escalating costs of health care, right?

[jimnaseum]

Yeah, let's put these guys in charge.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by randolph

OK, I just shot down my own view of gov. run health care, well not really, Medicare is a fairly well run system. The value of a gov. run alternative to private insurance is that it provides a damper on excess profits that private companies strive for. Our goal is to hold down escalating costs of health care, right?

Ok, you tell me how pharmaceutical companies should be run. Are you a benevolent non-profit organization run by brilliant and giving chemists and microbiologists? Will your organization be able to map cancer genes? Run studies that will be safe for users and get an ok by the FDA?

Or will you grant that pharmaceutical companies have large expenses in research and trials, not to mention drug ingredients, processing, etc. If you do concede this, and you're the president of this pharmaceutical company, what do you do when the government mandates that the costs of your drugs go down? Does that magically erase your research and drug trial expenses? Probably not. So you have a choice. Do you continue developing drugs in the US, or do you go to some other country where they accept the realities of your business?

BTW, I bet of medical practitioners from clinics to insurance companies to pharmaceutical companies could lower a lot of their costs if Tort Reform were passed. Is that part of the health care bill? No! Why not? Aren't they interested in making health care affordable for everyone? Hmmm, maybe not. I think these lawmakers that you're depending on to provide you and everyone else in this country the health care we all need are on the take. Are those the people you want deciding what kind of health care you receive? No thanks!

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jimnaseum

Yeah, let's put these guys in charge.

I don't get the Hannity/Eddie comparison. They both have black hair? Is that it? And I think Coulter looks more like a hippie that grew up into one of your liberal congresswomen.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

I don't get the Hannity/Eddie comparison. They both have black hair? Is that it? And I think Coulter looks more like a hippie that grew up into one of your liberal congresswomen.

I still say Hannity looks like a grown up Eddie Monster and for Coulter growing up into a hippie liberal that would be her worst and scarest nightmare but funny to everyone else
Jerseygirl Jen

[transjen]

Question- how much money does the goverment shell out on serect service to protect the Carters, Bushs, Clinton's, Bush's?
Ok Hillary being the sitting sec of state so i can see the need for secert service protection but if she wasn't why are we spending all this money? I mean really they are former presidents and not in danger like they were when they were in office, When has anyone ever took a shot at a former president? I just feel these are resources and money that could be better spent elsewhere if they feel they need secert service protection still then let them pick up the tab. Just something to think about
Jerseygirl Jen

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by transjen

Question- how much money does the goverment shell out on serect service to protect the Carters, Bushs, Clinton's, Bush's?

...

I just feel these are resources and money that could be better spent elsewhere if they feel they need secert service protection still then let them pick up the tab. Just something to think about
Jerseygirl Jen

$1.5 billion/year, or about .075% of the money Obama wasted on BS spending programs. Think about that.

[transjen]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

$1.5 billion/year, or about .075% of the money Obama wasted on BS spending programs. Think about that.

Is that 1'5 billion the total for all the former presidents or is that 1.5 for each? but regauardless why should the tax payers keep them with secert service no one is going to waste there time trying to knock off a former president come on Carter left office in 81 Bush in 92 Clinton in 01 and W in 09 no terrorist will think or even try to knock one off them off only the sitting president is in any real danger the money wasted on the former presidents would be better spent elsewhere.


And how does Obama spending more money else where make spend the 1.5 billion guarding former presidents ok?The GOP keep yelling for the president to trim the bufget well here a 1.5 billion dollar trim