If police question/detain a black person is it racism?

[TracyCoxx]

If a neighbor sees a couple of guys attempting to break a door in to enter a house and calls the police to report a possible burglary, is the officer who responds to the call and enters the home to investigate and question the people who were observed to be breaking into the house a racist?

If the officer is white, and the suspects are white, no.
If the officer is black, and the suspects are white, no.
If the officer is black, and the suspects are black, no.
If the officer is white, and the suspects are black, yes.

Of course, I'm talking about what's been all over the news the last couple of days. Officer Crowley investigated a reported break-in at a home, he found Henry Gates inside the house. Crowley asked him for his ID. At first Gates refused, then showed the officer some identification. The whole time, Gates was shouting that Crowley is a racist.

Why is the officer a racist?

Now what happened after that wasn't racism. It's just cops suffering the delusion that everyone must fall in line and kiss their ass all the time. Crowley should have just apologized and left. Gates continued to hurl accusations of racism and Crowley insisted that Gates calm down, until eventually he had enough and arrested Gates.

Gates is in his own house. He can say whatever he wants. He has freedom of speech. Police let their egos take over no matter what the race of the people they are interacting with are. I am white and I have seen it many times and I'm tired of it. Their authority only goes so far and they need to know where those boundaries are. But rather than discussing that part of the case, there's a black person involved so we need to go down the racist road yet again.

[jdawg]

If this was a white man trying to get into his house I guarantee that no cops would've been called. SO YES, the caller probably thought that since a black man was in a rich white neighborhood he must've been breaking in. The caller was a racist without even realizing it.




Gates was unruly, there's no doubt, but he should've never been arrested. However, I don't see the racism there and just see a cop being a pig and having his ego hurt by Gates.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jdawg

If this was a white man trying to get into his house I guarantee that no cops would've been called. SO YES, the caller probably thought that since a black man was in a rich white neighborhood he must've been breaking in. The caller was a racist without even realizing it.

You're assuming that all rich and white neighbors would not call police if they see a white person breaking into a house? You can determine human traits and capacities based solely on the fact that they are rich and white?

That would make you a...

Originally Posted by Webster

Racist
a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities.

I can google and find several instances of neighbors calling the police on white burglars.

[jdawg]

I'm saying that a black man is more likely to get the cops called on him. The rich white comment is more for dramatic effect. Now if you want to deny that a black man isn't more likely to have this shit happen to him, then boy do I have a mansion to sell you.

[tslust]

In simple terms; yes, but it should not be that way. First of all you've got all the paranoids who jump all over cops and vilify them at any chance they get. (Warning: some people might be offended by this comment.) Also, there is an unspoken guilt, over slavery, being forced on the country. Some people have a chip on their sholder and think that society in general owes them a debt. I say that everyone should be judged by what they do, not what their ancestors have done.

If the black professor should've taken into account that the cop doesn't automaticly know who's a good guy and who's a criminal. When the cop asked for ID, he should've simply shown him his ID. That way, the cop could see that the professor indeed belonged there, and that would be solved.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jdawg

I'm saying that a black man is more likely to get the cops called on him. The rich white comment is more for dramatic effect. Now if you want to deny that a black man isn't more likely to have this shit happen to him, then boy do I have a mansion to sell you.

If I see an albino that I don't recognize on my street with a crowbar breaking into a house, I'm calling the cops. I can't see how color has anything to do with what looks like a neighbor's house being broken in to.

The question though, is about Gates' racial accusations of Crowley. Was he justified in calling Crowley a racist for entering his house and asking for ID? Or is he a black man with a chip on his shoulder who tries to make everything about race?

[jdawg]

I gave you the answer to your question. Most of these issues are because of cops being their usual pig self and not really racial at all.



Maybe YOU are color blind, but alot of people in affluent neighborhoods are not. white or black or whatever. The guy walked with a cane and lives in the damn neighborhood. The stupid chick who called the cops should've known it was her neighbor for the simple fact that she's obviously a nosey fucker and should've seen him a few times at some point. I DON't think this was a blatant racist act by any means, but there is a racist component to that phone call.

[jdawg]

I'm trying to figure out why TSL thinks that we should just give the cops our id's when asked? Please tell me you're not the type of person who thinks that people who are in a position of authority deserve are utmost respect and cooperation no matter what?

[tslust]

Originally Posted by jdawg

I'm trying to figure out why TSL thinks that we should just give the cops our id's when asked? Please tell me you're not the type of person who thinks that people who are in a position of authority deserve are utmost respect and cooperation no matter what?

Respect, not always. Cooperation, yes. It'll usually work better for you, just ask Professor Gates.

If I'm just walking through the store and a cop wants to look at my ID, he's gonna have to tell me why. If I'm at my house, and he comes up saying that he's investigating a break-in; I might point out that I'm not the person he's looking for, but I'd still let him see my ID. Because "That cop don't know you from Adam!"

[TheCrystalKing]

This story calls to mind the Chappelle Show skit where the policeman arrives at a black man's home in response to a 911 call over a breaking-and-entering. The policeman immediately assumes the black homeowner, not the white robber, is the culprit; when his assisstant points out the fact that there are pictures of the 'suspect' and his family all over the wall. The policeman thinks himself all the wiser when he says something to the effect of "oldest trick in the book. This guy came in here, hung up pictures of his family on the wall, then robbed 'em blind"

On this subject, however, a very conservative and Republican friend of mine - whose father happens to be a police officer - had something interesting to say: allegedly, in our county, there were statistically more crimes perpetrated by black males than any other demographic, by a considerable margin. Therefore, my friend argued that his father wasn't being racist in taking the occassional conclusional jump against a potential criminal based on race - he was just listening to the statistics.

I don't know how much I buy into that (since it seems like it's still a decision based on race, even if there are 'facts' to back it up...), but I think it's a tough issue. In this case, just based on my limited knowledge of the scenario, I'd agree with jdawg. There may - but also may not - have been racism involved in the officer's scuffle with Mr. Gates, but there almost certainly was racism in the neighbor's decision to call the police in the first place.

[ and really, had she not seen her neighbor even once? ]

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jdawg

I'm trying to figure out why TSL thinks that we should just give the cops our id's when asked? Please tell me you're not the type of person who thinks that people who are in a position of authority deserve are utmost respect and cooperation no matter what?

For the sake of argument, say someone really did break into the house. The police goes in, and finds the burglers in the house. They claim to live there. He asks their ID. They say they don't have to show their ID. Does the cop say "curses... you got me there" and walk away?

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by TheCrystalKing

On this subject, however, a very conservative and Republican friend of mine - whose father happens to be a police officer - had something interesting to say: allegedly, in our county, there were statistically more crimes perpetrated by black males than any other demographic, by a considerable margin. Therefore, my friend argued that his father wasn't being racist in taking the occassional conclusional jump against a potential criminal based on race - he was just listening to the statistics.

Those statistics are probably true, but I still don't think cops should assume a suspect is probably guilty just because he's black. At the same time, since those statistics say more black males commit crimes than any other demographic, they should not balk if they are caught doing something, or if a police questions them due to reasonable circumstances - like investigating a break-in. The fault is not with the officer who observes blacks committing more than their fair share of crimes as long as he's not using race alone to determine who's a suspect.

[The Conquistador]

Gates is a dumbass. He sounds like one of those schmucks from COPS who gets pulled over for speeding or something minor and then escalates the situation by being loud, uncooperative and obnoxious and then ends up getting a taser shoved in their ass. You can get arrested for verbal abuse and it sounds like that is what happened.

[TracyCoxx]

Chris Rock - How Not to get your Ass Kicked by the Police

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTBskrO9nV8

[violet lightning]

Once again, it all boils down to Common Sense, Rationality and the Golden Rule.
Cops can be abusive at times, I've been the victim and have seen what assholes some cops can be. (in my case, it was mistaken identity which was remedied, but not before being verbally accused and taken downtown in cuffs!) But some of those cops were OK too, so it again boils down to the individual. (not groups like "pigs", thats just as bad!)

So some police can be rascist just as in any job, and guess what some white people are rascist too, and you know what? Some black people are rascist as well!
Its a human trait to be found in all variations of man.
So using common sense, it does seem reasonable (a key word) that a home owner would show his ID to a policeman who was investigating a break-in at his own home. In effect, trying to protect Gates.

Gates was probably already pissed-off about getting locked-out and having to break in to his own home.
As for the person who called in the break-in, I don't know the full details. How much did the person see? The whole break in, or just someones ass sticking out a window and disappearing?
There may be a racial component to the call, but maybe not. If I saw someone breaking into a neighbors house, I honestly wouldn't care about what color they were, or age, or whatever. And I wouldn't go over to ask them what they were doing either. I'd call it in and let the cops deal with it.
(and by the way, that has got to be a reall hard job)

So we have all heard of the real cases of police abuse and I hate it-but I don't hate the police. I certainly don't bow down to them either, but I do try to show respect and cooperate if its warranted. (I think people have a love/hate relationship with police...they can infringe on our personal freedom at times, but boy when we need them, are we glad they are there!)

I feel like in this case , Gates over-reacted and felt singled-out and perhaps embarrassed. (as in "Don't you know who I am... ? )
It sounds like the cop took an earful for as long as he could, and was even outside leaving, as Gates continued to hurl insults at his mother. Now who is verbally abusing who? So the cop could have let it go, but he decided he had had enough and the professor had lots of chances to just let it go.
I think unwittingly, by saying he was a friend of the President, he has actually hurt his friends carreer by creating a mini-uproar.
Now he's being called to the White House for a meeting with Obama. I'd like to be a fly on the wall for that discussion.

What erks me is President Obama and the stupid Governor weighing in on the case before, as they even admitted , all the facts were in. Both assumed the police were wrong and both now sound like Mike Naiphong (sp?) the dumb ass prosecutor in the Duke University "rape" case.
Really dumb, rookie mistakes. Wait till the facts come in, especially in a case involving race issues. (which I wish were "non-issues")

Now racial profiling and statistics are an interesting topic too....

[jdawg]

Originally Posted by TracyCoxx

For the sake of argument, say someone really did break into the house. The police goes in, and finds the burglers in the house. They claim to live there. He asks their ID. They say they don't have to show their ID. Does the cop say "curses... you got me there" and walk away?

A- the cop isn't even getting into my home.

B- the cop certainly isn't getting my id.


Just because a cop gets a call saying your house was broken into doesn't give them the right to run over your rights. You'd be surprised at what cops can do when you give them an inch.

[jdawg]

CrystalKing, those stats are true, but that's because Blacks are thrown in jail at a far higher rate than any other race for non-violent drug offenses. It's inflation of numbers based on stupid crimes like having some weed on you or whatever. So yes, you can say, blacks commit more crimes, but you need to look at what they're thrown away for to figure out that it's probably not as bad as the stats say.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jdawg

Just because a cop gets a call saying your house was broken into doesn't give them the right to run over your rights.

So if your house was broken into while you were away, and neighbors called in a break-in and cops were actually able to get there while the burglers were still in your house, you'd rather the cops NOT enter your house to stop these guys from stealing your Deluxe Tomahawk Dildo Mark V and other goodies? I don't think many people would agree with that, but if that's the way you want it...

Originally Posted by jdawg

You'd be surprised at what cops can do when you give them an inch.

You mean like arrest you in your own home? Yeah I know... I am well aware of how cops overstep their authority.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

What erks me is President Obama and the stupid Governor weighing in on the case before, as they even admitted , all the facts were in.

Yeah, while I agree that Crowley shouldn't have arrested Gates, I do love watching BO squirm. And it's all due to his own inexperience.

[jdawg]

If the cops showed up during an in-progress break-in I'm almost 100% positive that there wouldn't be any back and forth about rights as the suspects would run. So I can't even really answer that hypothetical as it would never occur.

[tslust]

Originally Posted by jdawg

If the cops showed up during an in-progress break-in I'm almost 100% positive that there wouldn't be any back and forth about rights as the suspects would run.

You'd be surprised at how many would-be robbers actually try to convince a cop that they're the owner.

[jdawg]

It should be noted that Gates did provide a Harvard ID. So for all of the people saying that he was an asshole who wouldn't provide identification. You're wrong.



I forgot that the chick wasn't a neighbor, but somebody who worked for Harvard. However, I still stand by my earlier comments as Gates is one of the most respected people at Harvard and the driver actually carried Gates' luggage inside the house. She should've known that he lived there for those 2 reasons alone.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by jdawg

If the cops showed up during an in-progress break-in I'm almost 100% positive that there wouldn't be any back and forth about rights as the suspects would run. So I can't even really answer that hypothetical as it would never occur.

When you make police impotent, it will occur. If cops aren't allowed to insult the suspect by insinuating they shouldn't be there, then they just have to act like they own the place. What's the cop going to do?

Originally Posted by jdawg

It should be noted that Gates did provide a Harvard ID. So for all of the people saying that he was an asshole who wouldn't provide identification. You're wrong.

No, he was an asshole who cried racist at a cop who was just doing his job. At least up until the point where he arrested Gates.

[lbfno]

[QUOTE=TracyCoxx;96117]Chris Rock - How Not to get your Ass Kicked by the Police


awesome

[violet lightning]

Well how does everyone feel now that the phone transcripts have been released and the "Beer Summit" has taken place?

The caller that phoned in the 911 call stated emphatically that
1.) she didn't know what color, race or age of the people involved, (when pressed, she said one might be Hispanic)
and
2.) She stated clearly that it was very possible that the people were the home owners since they had luggage.

I assume the police were aware of this possibility and it doesn't sound like they barged into his home bent on arresting him.

3.) Turns out that the policeman was an experienced officer and even taught classes on how not to racial profile.

A telling clip is the video taken after the beer summit, when Crowley is shown helping Gates walk as President Obama struts happily toward the cameras, oblivious to whats happening behind him.

As far as I'm concerned, there are good people and assholes. Thats the only differenciation I make. Optimistically, I think most people are good, care about others and just want to live their lives. (80-90 percent?) Hopefully, assholes only make up a small percentage of the population, but boy do they like to fuck things up for everyone.
(hey, I'm starting to sound like "Team America"!
The whole "Dicks fuck assholes" speech..)

[tslust]

Originally Posted by violet lightning

A telling clip is the video taken after the beer summit, when Crowley is shown helping Gates walk as President obama struts happily toward the cameras, oblivious to whats happening behind him.

Ya, I really loved that.

[Jenae LaTorque]

I see this case as one of where two people failed each other. They both made assumptions based on little evidence and failed to give each other the benifit of the doubt. The big problem with people in conflict is that they usually bring a lot of baggage to a meeting. I remember my Grandfather explaining how he felt one time after another driver yelled an obscenity at him on the back road to town. He said something to the effect that since he didn't know that man and that man didn't know him, it was just dust in the wind. He then explained that he could only really get mad at those he knew, and then on rare occasions. And that furthermore it had been his experiance that both sides getting mad only fanned the flames.
I did see him get mad a few times though. And boy could he do it. Once we both saw a man kick a dog for no reason other than it was in his way a bit. By the time Grandpa got done giving that fellow what for, the guy was totally embarassed and very shamefaced. I don't think I've ever heard anybody apologize so much in my life.

You know something. I would suppose for every case that we hear about like this, there are hundreds of cases where the matter is resolved in a courteous manner; at least I hope so.
As for the cop bashing going on here by some, all I can say is you usually only get what you pay for. If the money isn't allocated to attract the best men, and the money isn't allocated to train and counsel them in the proper performance of their duties, then what do you expect. The qualities that are desirable in a good police officer are not found in many men, in fact, I would say damn few. And often the best of what we do get, don't remain on the force. Most of the best police officers I ever knew have moved on to become lawyers, judges, county commisioners, not to mention those who move on to upper level police force management.

Students of history can tell you that we have, on the average, the finest police to ever walk this planet. Check your history books.

[Jenae LaTorque]

A Funny.

Tell them both to kiss and make up, that should determine if there is any racism involved.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

First let's define RACISM; RACISM is discrimination based on race, so a white person who hates blacks is racist, a black person that hates whites is also racist, same as sexism, which is discrimination on the basis of gender, not only against women, because there are alot of women that are sexist, oops i digressed there.

But, while dealing with cops, you are a wize-ass, black or white there is a good chance that you'll end up beeing arrested.

Once i had the cops at my door, they said they had a complain, and asked to come in.

If i would have said no they would have insisted and who knows what could have happened after that, (i am white) but insteadi said: "What is this about?", the cops stayed out and everything was resolved there, it was so insignificant to me that i do not remember what it was all about.

Another thing.

Once i got into an argument with a black guy i knew, he was losing the argument then he sais: "you're on my case because i'm black!" the argument had nothing to do with race and i ansewered him: "No, i'm on your case because you were acting like an idiot", he didn't like that but he knew i was right. Why did he bring up the fact that he was black which was totally irrelevant? Maby to get some sympathy? or more to remind me that he was a "big bad black guy"? Either way it didn't work, but i guess he felt he has to try.

I dealt with that only once and i was a bit putoff by it, i can immagine that cops get it on a very regular basis and are quite tired of it, personally i think it is weak to play the race card every time things don't go your way.

JohnDowe.

[TracyCoxx]

Originally Posted by johndowe

But, while dealing with cops, you are a wize-ass, black or white there is a good chance that you'll end up beeing arrested.

This is America. You have every right to be a wise-ass. Especially in your own house!

Originally Posted by johndowe

Once i had the cops at my door, they said they had a complain, and asked to come in.

If i would have said no they would have insisted and who knows what could have happened after that

Absolutely not. Have you heard of the 4th amendment? Look it up.