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#51
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#52
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Please define "culture" as you mean it here. Please clarify your point about Jews and Hezbollah. And I would advise strongly that you make a distinction between "Jews" and "Israelis" or, more accurately, "Zionists." Not all Jews are Zionists. |
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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"it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity" = "a perception that there is a link between being from these places (or, in the context of our discussion in this thread, a link between being of these "races") and being engaged in criminal behavior" Quote:
Like I said it was late. Like after 2am and I really just wanted to get on with downloading porn. Yes, I should have said Israelis, as they are the ones who are being littered with rockets. I would like to further specify which street adresses are most prone to bombing but that would further divert me from my daily dose of porn. I wouldn't use the term "Zionists" because not all Zionists live in Israel and are bombed by rockets.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#55
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Back to the subject of the thread. The Arizona law has police officers checking the citizenship of law breakers who exhibit signs of also being illegal aliens (such as driving without a valid drivers license among other things). These would already be law breakers, and if it turns out they are also illegal aliens they are by definition breaking even more laws. Regardless of what motivated them to breaking laws, what's wrong with booting them out of the country?
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#56
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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Read carefully what I said he was "not reporting" again, and fully, and in the context of the subsequent sentence(s). I simply do not have the mental energy to continue our discussion until you become a more careful reader, so I don't have to keep writing over and over again to explain what I did not write but that you insist on attributing to me. Or perhaps you are a master sophist (you can look that up), in which case our discussion truly has nowhere to go.
Last edited by smc; 06-12-2010 at 02:01 PM. |
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But what do we do with the millions of illegals already here? I propose we make it impossible for them to find gainful work by imposing such harsh penalties upon businesses that might hire them, that no business dares hire illegals. Further, those that perpetrate the trade of illegal/fake papers should be given prison sentences just shy of the death penalty. |
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Well I suppose if we legalized drugs they could go back to their farms and grow the stuff that many in this country crave.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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That's what the courts have said is legal. Obama wants the supreme court to rule that it's illegal though. What are his intentions? If we were to judge him (and several other politicians) based on his actions we would have to conclude that he wants this country to be crawling with illegals.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#61
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Borders
Havent been here in a while but thought I must throw my hat into the ring. First and foremost... How can we be a country if there are no borders? Look up immigration laws in Mexico. Everything is a Felony. We need a fence. A .50 cal fence every half mile.
Last edited by Rachel; 06-16-2010 at 08:01 PM. |
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Here's something Obama's news networks won't tell you. Due to our govenrment's negligence, and ultimately BO's negligence (when he canceled construction of the fence that Rachel mentioned) was the straw that broke the camel's back... Not only has our borders been breached, the US has actually lost 3500 acres of land, including an 80 mile section of the border, to Mexico.
This land, which is part of the US, is actually off limits to Americans! http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/16...der-americans/ McCain and law enforcement there have requested 3000 troops to retake the land and secure the border there. Again, just going by BO's actions, what is he trying to accomplish? Why would he cancel construction of the fence on what is recognized as the gateway for illegal aliens? He's trying to change the demographics of the country, and if drug lords get through as well, who cares right?
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#63
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This is a severe breach of US sovereignty pure and simple.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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The situation here is somewhat different but the the effects may be the same. A Latin culture will become predominant while the traditional northern European culture will fade away. Its happening already just look at the ethnic population in the schools. Here in S. Calif. its at least 80% Hispanic.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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Actually, my point was general and my specific reference was not to the Indians but to Texas having been part of Mexico. But my real question is whether you are willing and able to think beyond simplistic reaction to a broader picture of the reality of the world and how to solve vexing social problems.
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But your point that vexing social problems excuses gangs and drug lords from another country for running around free in America sounds fascinating. Please tell me more.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#68
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This is not the first time in this thread that you put words in my mouth. It is a classic -- and wholly discredited approach in an argument: the logical fallacy of the "strawman attack." Put words in your opponent's mouth and then either attack the resulting position, while simultaneously evading the real point made by your opponent, or see if you can bait your opponent into continuing down the falsely created discussion path. |
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Back to your real question: Whether I am willing and able to think beyond simplistic reaction to a broader picture of the reality of the world and how to solve vexing social problems. Tell me what the vexing social problem is and maybe I can answer your question.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#70
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The vexing social problems are poverty and immigration. The overwhelming majority of undocumented workers who come here from Mexico do so because they are dirt poor and there is so little hope and opportunity in their home country to lift themselves out of poverty. That is why there is so huge a business in individual sending of money from the United States to Mexico: undocumented workers here are supporting their families back home. In many other cases, entire families come here -- for the same reason. This primary motivating factor for crossing our southern border is undeniable, and anyone who denies it -- whatever her or his political perspective -- cannot be taken seriously. I could write a long treatise on why Mexico is so poor, or -- more accurately -- why so many Mexicans are so poor (the nation itself is quite rich with natural resources). Suffice it to say here, in the interest of brevity, that the hand of the United States, over well more than a century of direct and indirect intervention, is all over today's Mexican reality. The question of "illegal immigration" poses a question of whether the United States wants to remain the beacon to the world it has always purported to be. The voices of reaction simplistically speak of militarizing the border, throwing people out, breaking up families, and so on. Many of these immigrants are hardworking people who contribute to the economy in a number of ways. Again, anyone who denies this fact cannot be taken seriously. The United States loses its purported moral authority whenever we paint a problem with so broad a brush as to equate, either implicitly or explicitly, everyone in a particular group with the heinous actions of a few. Tracy, you do this implictly with your multiple posts equating Mexican workers and Mexican drug runners, Mexican drug cartel members, Mexican criminals engaged in the drug wars. The reaction that is inherent in ridiculous statements such as Obama is "trying to change the demographics of the country" and "if drug lords get through as well, who cares right?" is just plain unserious. Of course, I am not you, but I would be embarrassed to make such statements. They do not suggest that you want to have a thoughtful discussion about how to solve problems, but that you are a reactionary (and I mean that in the dictionary definition, not as a slur against conservatives). I mean, really, it is almost as ridiculous as the view that Obama wasn't born in the United States. |
#71
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These "anchor babies" allow many illegal immigrants to stay here illegally and suck at the welfare tit. If we can't amend the Constitution to do away with "birth by soil" than I propose that we make it VERY unattractive for these "citizen babies." In short, the legal citizen child of illegal immigrants shall be IMMEDIATELY confiscated as a ward of the state and treated as a ward until they reach 18. The illegal parents lose ALL custody rights and are immediately deported back to their country of origin. |
#72
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The most obvious problem with what GRH proposes is that it would punish children, for 18 years, for the actions of their parents. Think about it: independent of the merit of your proposal, children -- completely innocent in that they were not the perpetrators of the violation of the law -- would be turned into victims. You can argue that they are being victimized by their irresponsible parents, but do you want to have, on your hands, the responsibility for having taken them from mom and dad, having them be raised in the tenuous uncertainty of being a ward of the state (and thus subject to all the exigencies that affect state-run programs), and so on? The rest of my argument, I want to make clear, is general about the proposal. I do not believe that GRH has specifically stated any of these things, only that the proposal -- and the movement against birthright citizenship provided by the 14th Amendment of the U.S. Constitution -- has these elements. So, to begin, let's debunk any notion that this represents a "simple reform" -- as George Will claimed in a Washington Post op-ed some time ago on the subject. It is much, much more, and would have significant consequences for the United States. For instance, it would place a burden on every American, who would potentially have to document her or his own claim to citizenship. There is considerable research to suggest that it would, in fact, increase the number of stateless individuals without legal status who reside in the United States. Where would these people be deported to, if caught? What happens when countries of the world say that they are unwilling to accept deportees from the United States, because they are not citizens of the country to which the United States wants to send them? Prisons? Workhouses? Detention camps? The idea that repealing the 14th Amendment is a cure to a broken immigration system is folly. It is yet another reaction, built on emotion by those who seem unwilling to have a complex discussion about a complex problem that transcends the relatively straightforward issue of citizenship. It ignores the root causes of our immigration problems (see my posts earlier). Doctors will tell you that treatment is infinitely more effective when you can treat the disease itself, not the symptoms. The plethora of undocumented immigrants in our country is a symptom, not the disease. The calls for repeal of the 14th Amendment have a long history in nativism and racism. I am not accusing anyone on this forum who supports the repeal as nativists or racists. Nevertheless, it is instructive to look at the history of the arguments over the period since Reconstruction, when the 14th Amendment was enacted. Studying this history, and the arguments on both sides, is quite revealing. It is unfortunate when those who support repeal today fail to dissociate themselves explicitly from the tradition of this movement, which is a very ugly one indeed. |
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That's why I'm bringing these things up here in this thread. Because looking at only his actions without hearing any of his reasoning, without giving him the benefit of the doubt, I think the only logical conclusion of his actions alone, is that he's trying to change the demographics of America. But I'm not hearing his reasons. And it's getting harder and harder to give him the benefit of the doubt when he consistently comes down on the side of letting illegals live and work here. So enlighten me. Have you or anyone else heard his reasons? Uh, was that mentioned in this thread?
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#74
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Criminals
Darn Tracy beat me to all the good comebacks! lol But lets call a Spade a Spade shall we SMC? They arent "undocumented workers" or any of the other politically correct niceties. They are Illegal Aliens. They are criminals.They didnt immigrate here. They entered the Country illegally. And they are a drain to our society not contributors. From all the free charity healthcare they get to local cities building shelters in muster zones. They dont pay taxes yet their children attend our schools.
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#75
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By the way, I use "undocumented worker" not as a PC nicety, but because I refuse to take the simplistic road of simply criminalizing behavior that has, at its root, the human yearning for a better life free of poverty and degradation. It's so easy for we Americans to sit on our high horses, but I wonder what any of us would do were the tables turned. How about you, Rachel. I understand you have a gun. If your family was dirt poor, had no prospects for getting food, lived in rural Mexico and was subjected to all difficulties brought upon by gangs, murderers, and so on, might you pack them up and try to move somewhere safer and with more opportunity? Might you pick up that gun and use it (even "illegally)? |
#76
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In ancient Greece, there was a class of teachers who dealt with philosophy, rhetoric, and politics, and who mastered the "art" of using fallacious but plausible reasoning. I grow exhausted by your sophistry. You either pretend not to understand how argument works or really do not, but in either case you keep ascribing either explicit or implicit statements or intents to your opponent. Any mention of anything in the argument by your opponent is subjected to the scrutiny of whether it was mentioned previously (this is only relevant if someone actually says you said something and then takes it on; otherwise, in argument one certainly has the right to raise analogous statements, references, etc., so long as it is done fairly). You change the goalposts of the discussion, and you bring in early referents as if they were the most recent subjects of the rhetoric. I am so exhausted by having to spend time discussing how you argue, rather than only the substance of your points. Were you a student in my university rhetoric class, I would put you on "probation" and get you some tutoring, and that would be irrespective of your positions on any subject. It would be about how to argue. You can read what I wrote just above and declare victory if you wish, but remember that there are many kinds of victories. If you simply exhaust your opponent with sophistry, as the early Sophists learned, yours may indeed be a Pyrrhic victory for your position in the end. |
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My agricultural company could not have survived without these hardworking guys from Mexico and Guatemala willing to work nine hours a day six days a week for a modest wage. We cannot stop them from coming up here. What needs to be done is once they have a job, give them a work permit that allows them to legally travel back and forth to Mexico so they can leave their families there where it is much cheaper for them to live. Unfortunately, our political system is so fucked up, the situation will never be resolved.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
#78
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Did the actions and policies of the Mexican government have nothing to do with the country's poverty?? And did anyone in this thread accuse Obama of not being born in the US? I only ask because if you wouldn't want someone to Quote:
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Mexicans are hard workers. But if there weren't illegals here the hard work would still get done. It would have to or else we wouldn't be too good to do the work. Our society would fall apart. We would be poor, and then willing to do the hard work. I don't want this to come back and bite us in the butt like slavery did. People used the same arguments about slaves. "They do the work no one else will do". Well it's time we all do the hard work.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body Last edited by TracyCoxx; 06-20-2010 at 02:14 AM. |
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As for the "gun," I wrote quite specifically, using it as an analogy to the question of doing something "illegally." I refuse to believe you didn't see it, so I must assume that your question about what your "guns have to do with this conversation" is a rhetorical device. Unfortunately, it's the same as before: pull out a few words and pretend the rest are not there. |
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Be that as it may, your questions: Buenos Aires -- what does this have to do with anything? You raised it in a post recently with no connection to anything. I gave you the benefit of the doubt that it was a rhetorical device, inexplicable as it may be. Instead, should I point out that you are now guilty of bringing things up no one ever spoke of before in the thread (something you seem to feel is universally invalid)? Mexican government -- if you had read my previous posts fully (complete reading does not seem to be part of your M.O. in this discussion), you would see that I already ascribed to the Mexican government blame. I also pinned the blame on the U.S. government for propping up a bad Mexican government. Obama's birth -- here's where you illustrate that you don't fully read. I wrote: "I mean, really, it is almost as ridiculous as the view that Obama wasn't born in the United States." In other words, I used it to illustrate another point. I didn't ascribe the view to you. I didn't put words in your mouth. I didn't say anyone had said this. I used it to illustrate my point. |
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Hey, don't be hard on autoless drivers. They have vexing social problems to deal with.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#83
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And back to the other subject that you dodged with the fallacy of appeal to ridicule: Quote:
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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Tracy- "Thanks, but Rachel wrote that Although I doubt income tax and SS is deducted from their pay checks. They don't have SS numbers and companies usually don't report their illegal workers."
Sorry Tracy, you are wrong there. Most "illegals" have documents (possibly fake) that appear genuine. The employer has no available means to determine authenticity and is not required to investigate. The forms that are filled out when they are hired require several forms of ID. SS and IRS are deducted from their paychecks. I know because I signed the checks. The one case where SS Admin. questioned one of our employees SS, it turns out he was legal and some one had stolen his SS. Since the funds, SS and IRS, deducted from "illegal" workers checks, end up not being "claimed" by the worker, the money is gravy for the government. Neither the SS Admin or the IRS ever checked the legality of our workers.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
#85
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This thread has deteriorated into a ?he said, she said, they said, we said? discussion. It?s time to get it back on track.
Since the humans first appeared on Earth there has been a constant movement from one place to another. That is how the complete globe has become populated. And no, Randolph, there is no proof that Cro-Magnon man pushed the Neanderthals out of Europe or were even responsible for the extinction of Neanderthals. The US is not the only country that has experienced a lot of immigration recently. All of the Americas were settled by migration, albeit a process that started during the last ice age. As well Oceania, Europe, and parts of Africa have experienced a lot of immigration. Documentation of immigrants has only been required for within the last couple of hundred years. If one cares to go back in history the first European immigrants to the Americas did not require any kind of documentation. Nor were there any laws restricting immigration, no prerequisites, and no quotas. Illegal immigration is merely a bureaucratic invention designed to control what humans have been doing for a couple of hundred thousand years. Now, take the discussion from this point and keep it civil. |
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Well that's lovely
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#87
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I can't help but laugh at this ridiculous american border fence.
The Romans tried something similar in my country. 20 feet high. 10 feet wide. 75 miles long. Built of stone. Along the tops of cliffs for half its length. Garrisoned by 9000 soldiers. If THAT didn't manage to stop illegal immigrants, how's a cheap fence which can be circumvented in under 30 seconds supposed to? |
#88
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Rapid extinction Jared Diamond has suggested a scenario of violent conflict comparable to the genocides suffered by indigenous peoples in recent human history.[9] Another possibility raised by Diamond and others, paralleling colonialist history, would be a greater susceptibility on the part of the Neanderthals to pathogens introduced by Cro-Magnon man. Diamond argues that asymmetry in susceptibility to pathogens is a consequence of the difference in lifestyle.[citation needed] [edit] Competitive replacement Even a slight competitive advantage on the part of modern humans could account for Neanderthals' replacement by anatomically modern humans on a timescale of 10,000-20,000 years.[4] The theory that early humans violently replaced Neanderthals was first proposed by French palaeontologist Marcellin Boule (the first person to publish an analysis of a Neanderthal) in 1912.[10] Another supporter of competitive replacement is Jared Diamond who points out in his book The Third Chimpanzee that the genocidal replacement of Neanderthals by modern humans is similar to modern human patterns of behavior that occur whenever people with advanced technology invade the territory of less advanced people.[11] You ignored the points I tried to make from my own experience and nit picked the Neanderthal issue. So much for staying on track.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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#90
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In California, unemployment could be mostly eliminated by a simple law, do what Oregon does, require a gas station attendant to fill the tank. This could tide many over until they found a better job.
__________________
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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#92
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Simplistic?
SMC you should know me well enough by now that I dont go into lengthy diatribes. I like to keep my answers short and sweet and to the point. Yes I read every post, I can read very quickly. However I dont spend much time at the computer to compose a rambling manifesto. So I'll answer the point that I see most fit. Hey at least I'm participating no? Anyway back to the subject... Criminalizing behavior? Hmmm they want to immigrate but wont/cant do it the right way. Enter a country ILLEGALY=criminal behavior. Am I supposed to feel sorry for them that they were born in Mexico? And no, I'm not going to use my guns to commit criminal acts. I am not a criminal like every one of the illegal aliens is. Still dont see your point on that. I wouldnt call it a dodge I was going to say changing the subject. But once again, I'm not on here that often to make those quick replies.
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
#94
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Mexican babies born here? Just through them across the border. Who cares, they would make good coyote bait.
__________________
"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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illegals working
20 years ago there was a fish market/restaurant in town. the best ever. Was a family owned place that was there when my dad was a kid. All of a sudden he's closed up. Boarded up. He had 10 illegals working for him and they shut him down. My how times have changed. Now the problem is ignored and towns are bending over backward to appease this group of criminals. Wasting taxpayers money building shelters in muster zones. Hmm they built it 4 miles away in the industrial park where no one goes at a cost of 144 thousand. What a waste of the citizens money.
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Obama's 2012 campaign strategy is starting to take shape and being the dirty politician he is I think we all expected this: If you can't count on your own citizens to re-elect you, just make new citizens!
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Click here for text of the letter signed by Sens. Grassley, Hatch (R-Utah), Vitter (R-La.), Bunning (R-Ky.), Chambliss (R-Ga.), Isakson (R-Ga.), Inhofe (R-Okla.), and Cochran (R-Miss.).
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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amnesty
Amnesty would be the last straw. My support for Obama has been eroding rapidly. He is sold out to corporate interests just like all the other politicians. The amnesty back in the early 1990s failed and this time would be no different. Unfortunately, the Repubs. provide no sane alternative.
If I could learn French I would move to Provence and take up painting.
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"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible; but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary." R.N. |
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Didn't Ronald Reagan sign the Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 into law???? In case you were unaware, the Act contained the following:
* required employers to attest to their employees' immigration status, and granted amnesty to certain illegal immigrants who entered the United States before January 1, 1982 and had resided there continuously * made it illegal to knowingly hire or recruit illegal immigrants (immigrants who do not possess lawful work authorization) * granted a path towards legalization to certain agricultural seasonal workers and immigrants who had been continuously and illegally present in the United States since January 1, 1982 Looks like Reagan was trying to create new citizens to vote for the Republicans. |
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A lesbian trapped in a man's body |
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