Once again I met the ignorance...

[hankhavelock]

Once again I met the ignorance... this time from an otherwise rather intelligent gay man who from ignorance (not knowledge) presented his "truth" that transsexuality is merely a matter of choice and probably just a way for gays to find more men...

I was flappergasted! And got completely upset!

I was simply unable to beat any sense into his thick gay head - luckily I had my good T-x to blow my steam out in front of...

A MATTER OF CHOICE? A MATTER OF JUST BEING INSECURE AS A GAY MAN? A MATTER OF JUST WANTING TO GET LAID EASILIER?

What truly upset me was that he calmly rejected any kind of explanation. His point was, that he had also once played with cross dressing, and as I was not GAY, I had no true knowledge of all this...

So FUCK that I have for the last four years basicly done nothing else than being with, among and between transsexual women, loving, listening to, learning from, and getting educated by trans-women, feeling their pain, understanding their motivation... how would I know anything anyway? I'm not a little GAY? I'm just a bloody little tranny-chaser...?

Well, this saddens me and it also convinces me again, that gays understand transsexuals as little as anyone else. Sure, they may understand the flambouyant drag artist who is anyway a gay, but when it comes to an understanding of the nature of trans-life, gays are as illiterate as any one else.

Oh well... ok, I'm cool now... I just don't grasp why it is so damn hard to understand. Transsexuality as I've encountered it, is simply an amazing way to be true to yourself and to live your true identity. It's not a fucking fetish or a perversion, it's a deeply felt human and actually highly poetical and beautiful way of self-expression - and it demands respect - not to be be-littled... and it usually comes with a lot of pain.

So excuse me for getting upset with ignorant ass holes... this was an attack that really and truly upset me more than I've been upset for a long time. It was not only an attack om my trans-friends and me personally... it was an attack on transsexuality itself... and that gets me going... FUCK!!!

Well, fuck them all... let's stay strong together! And I'll be damned if I should listen to this kinda crap from idiots... even though what I have just witnessed is peanuts compared to what transsexual women and men must endure constantly...

Sad...

H

[lebguy]

Well, we all are fed up with that kind of people. Ignorant that want to look like smartasses. I can't add more than what you said.

[Amy]

Everyone can be prejudiced if sufficiently ignorant of a situation.

It's a shame. And something I would hope can be addressed more in all areas of life.

If you think gay men are ignorant of Trans women, ask a typical one about Trans men -- hell, ask a lesbian woman about Trans women or Trans men. Of course, I've noticed a slightly higher number of gay men seemingly sympathetic toward Trans men and lesbians sympathetic toward Trans women, but yeah... To a certain extent, the post-Stonewall "assimilation" of GLBT culture has led to the GLB quadrants getting as ignorant as anybody else about the T. It's sort of sad, really.

[Bionca]

Well, as some of us like to write... we belong to the GL(b)....t "community". I have found some of the most supportive people among gay guys and lesbians. I have also found some of the most daft assumptions from within that community.

On one hand the idea that Trans*women are gay guys that couldn't handle being gay, wanted to have an easier time picking up guys, are CD/TVs that want the fantasy full-time is common. It also erases lesbian trans*women and gay trans*men. I can without doubt state (having been someone who ID'd as a gay man) they are totally unrelated. If anything, being a gay guy (even a REALLY sissy one) is better understood and accepted than being trans*. Being trans* has complicated hooking up so much that the idea I did this to get laid is laughable.

If we look at Radical Feminists dogma re: trans* we open up yet another batch of poorly formed theories and assumptions about why we do this. Rather than listen to what trans*folk have to say (or for that matter what the people who date us) we have people using political/social theories telling us that we don't know our own lives and they have all the answers.

I get the anger Hank. My fella's gay brother pulled the same crap a few months ago. Perhaps because the Trans* umbrella is so large and includes both men and women as well as people who dress up for sexual kink or to express their "inner woman/man" confusion is bound to happen. The anger happens when those on the outside try pin their "observations" on my body.

[TheSkronkDonkey]

There are few things I detest more than ignorant judgementalism.

Sadly, it is rampant ... because ignorance is rampant.

Just the other day, I was sifting through a 100+ page discussion of homosexuality on another board. Now, I only read the most recent few pages in any detail, but I saw one person who thought he was being open-minded and was trying to argue that sexuality exists along a spectrum. An agreeable position, perhaps. One problem: he put heterosexuality at one end and homosexuality at the other. To my mind, that's an insidious false dichotomy, where the concept of sexual modality falls between two superficial extremes. On another board, I used the term "pansexuality" and nobody appeared to know what it meant. Just the opposite. Several of them revelled in their ignorance and used their gang mentality to mock me.

Then you have a bisexual person at another board who had always struck me as fair and reasonable, until he said that "flaming queens" disgust him. The best one is a friend of mine's comment just the other week. We were at his house casually flipping TV channels when an advert came on for a programme featuring transsexual models (can't remember specifics). I don't recall what was said in the advert, other than it provoked my friend into making an horrifically bigoted comment: "You can tell it's a man because of the deep voice." Naturally, I was pretty pissed and proceeded to set him right, but he shut me out at the first instant and dryly remarked we weren't going to get into a conversation about transsexuality at ten minutes to midnight. What a lovely way to curtail discussion and avoid facing his gross idiocy. It's kinda pained me to write out that last story, not least because this is a guy I've known half my life.

Then there was the time a uni flatmate rhetorically said, "Isn't it disgusting?" in a flat-out reference to transsexuality and transgenderism. Or the very recent time a girl at work was flipping through a magazine and started laughing at a story about a person who'd just had SRS. I could go on and on, but this shit is seriously depressing. Heck, there was even a more recent time when another girl at work laughed at me for ten minutes straight (arousing a LOT of unwarranted attention, to say the least) because she touched my arm and it was prickly. About a week before, I decided to shave my lower arms because I wanted totally smooth skin. Apparently, this was not only weird, but the comedy highlight of her year. Never mind the fact that women routinely shave their legs, men their faces, more and more people get skin waxes and ... oh, why am I defending myself here?

Prejudice seems rampant in the human animal and only the slightest differences are needed as a pretext for in-out group discrimination. I think John Lennon was onto something with "bagism". I'd like to think the solution is education, which it must be, but that is only part of it. How do you combat the fundamental ills of human nature and stop people discriminating when we respond subjectively to the world and build our aesthetic, moral and intellectual plateaus accordingly?

[racquel]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Being trans* has complicated hooking up so much that the idea I did this to get laid is laughable.

Exactly.

If anybody actually did a study on the sex lives of TS people this would probably be pretty obvious. I'm almost too self-conscious to even have sex, and most of the people trying to hook up with me are awfully creepy.

[thequietone1]

I just call you by your name, i dont give a shit what you identify as** nor what your ancestry is. Face value for me every time.





** I dont mean this to be bad, just that I really hate people that pass judgement based on looks or assumptions. If your mostly sane and sincere, you're okay to me.

[franalexes]

I don't think I have ever met a gay guy that has had so much as a hint of what TS really is.
They seem to be too stupid to play it dumb to the ignorance in which they display their mental incompetence and they do that with great ineptitude.

To all of you that have posted before me,,,,

[quickpick]

You would think a gay man would be more understanding of transgendered individuals, that is what you would expect. But it always amazes me that they feel that TG individuals are just someone who is "confused". This is the response that I got from one gay guy. I guess there are some people who are just ignorant. Some by choice and maybe some by fear. I'm not sure what is their reason. But it applies to any ignorant thinking in this world. What's worse is that they don't care to even care to consider any alternative view. But that's why it is important to surround yourself by your supporters but at the same time not to shy away from voicing your opinion.

[sesame]

Hanky,
I've been through the frustration that comes when you waste all your energy on some moron who just wont understand! Some people are like that; they are called "Bone heads", their heads are thick to the core with nothing but solid bone! Well, not literally! Some may even possess a pea sized brain! But the sheer lack of grey matter makes them full of themselves! There is hardly any room in that tiny brain to put in and understand other people's opinions.

My advise is, leave them alone. Some people, who are intellectually handicapped, think that they know everything! You spend half your life living with and understanding Tgirls, yet this Bright Guy thinks that he knows more about them than you do! I think coming to terms with his being GAY has cost him all his mental juices! Ask him, and he will tell you that he knows Laser technology better than Mani Bhowmik! Well, donkeys will always bray, what can you or me do about that?

Transsexuality as I've encountered it, is simply an amazing way to be true to yourself and to live your true identity. It's not a fucking fetish or a perversion, it's a deeply felt human and actually highly poetical and beautiful way of self-expression - and it demands respect - not to be be-littled... and it usually comes with a lot of pain.

Yes, my man, yes. You can spread the gospel of T-Love.

[sesame]

Ila,
ADVISE, ADVICE... both are correct. Here you go.
sesame.

[ila]

Originally Posted by sesame

Ila,
ADVISE, ADVICE... both are correct. Here you go.
sesame.

sesame my great and learned friend

advise - verb

advice - noun

[sesame]

Okay, then, my advice to ila is, to advise me from time to time and point out any departure from the correct use of English grammer.

[Amy]

Originally Posted by TheSkronkDonkey

There are few things I detest more than ignorant judgementalism.

Sadly, it is rampant ... because ignorance is rampant.

Just the other day, I was sifting through a 100+ page discussion of homosexuality on another board. Now, I only read the most recent few pages in any detail, but I saw one person who thought he was being open-minded and was trying to argue that sexuality exists along a spectrum. An agreeable position, perhaps. One problem: he put heterosexuality at one end and homosexuality at the other. To my mind, that's an insidious false dichotomy, where the concept of sexual modality falls between two superficial extremes.

Indeed, it would be better simplified as a sphere. With one dimension, the circle representing different spots on the sexual preference spectrum - same sex attraction, asexuality, transexual attraction, pansexuality, etc. And another dimension at right angles to it, the full spectrum of genders. Male, female, transmen/women, hemaphrodites, etc. And the third dimension perhaps representing sexual preferences outside of those reliant upon the genitalia of your partner(s).

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by racquel

Exactly.

If anybody actually did a study on the sex lives of TS people this would probably be pretty obvious. I'm almost too self-conscious to even have sex, and most of the people trying to hook up with me are awfully creepy.

word!

One bit that seriously gets me is how totally impossible it is to have an organic relationship. Relationships center on being trans* - either BECAUSE of it, or IN SPITE of it. I can't just go out, have chemistry with a guy, and see what comes next.

Personally, I think this whole thing is bound up with gay guy's obsessive fetish of landing a straight guy. Since they want one, we obviously must have gone through this so we could do it more easily.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by TheSkronkDonkey

There are few things I detest more than ignorant judgementalism.

Sadly, it is rampant ... because ignorance is rampant.

Just the other day, I was sifting through a 100+ page discussion of homosexuality on another board. Now, I only read the most recent few pages in any detail, but I saw one person who thought he was being open-minded and was trying to argue that sexuality exists along a spectrum. An agreeable position, perhaps. One problem: he put heterosexuality at one end and homosexuality at the other. To my mind, that's an insidious false dichotomy, where the concept of sexual modality falls between two superficial extremes. On another board, I used the term "pansexuality" and nobody appeared to know what it meant. Just the opposite. Several of them revelled in their ignorance and used their gang mentality to mock me.

Then you have a bisexual person at another board who had always struck me as fair and reasonable, until he said that "flaming queens" disgust him. The best one is a friend of mine's comment just the other week. We were at his house casually flipping TV channels when an advert came on for a programme featuring transsexual models (can't remember specifics). I don't recall what was said in the advert, other than it provoked my friend into making an horrifically bigoted comment: "You can tell it's a man because of the deep voice." Naturally, I was pretty pissed and proceeded to set him right, but he shut me out at the first instant and dryly remarked we weren't going to get into a conversation about transsexuality at ten minutes to midnight. What a lovely way to curtail discussion and avoid facing his gross idiocy. It's kinda pained me to write out that last story, not least because this is a guy I've known half my life.

Then there was the time a uni flatmate rhetorically said, "Isn't it disgusting?" in a flat-out reference to transsexuality and transgenderism. Or the very recent time a girl at work was flipping through a magazine and started laughing at a story about a person who'd just had SRS. I could go on and on, but this shit is seriously depressing. Heck, there was even a more recent time when another girl at work laughed at me for ten minutes straight (arousing a LOT of unwarranted attention, to say the least) because she touched my arm and it was prickly. About a week before, I decided to shave my lower arms because I wanted totally smooth skin. Apparently, this was not only weird, but the comedy highlight of her year. Never mind the fact that women routinely shave their legs, men their faces, more and more people get skin waxes and ... oh, why am I defending myself here?

Prejudice seems rampant in the human animal and only the slightest differences are needed as a pretext for in-out group discrimination. I think John Lennon was onto something with "bagism". I'd like to think the solution is education, which it must be, but that is only part of it. How do you combat the fundamental ills of human nature and stop people discriminating when we respond subjectively to the world and build our aesthetic, moral and intellectual plateaus accordingly?

Donkey -

I agree with your post, but that's not why I'm responding. I want to thank you for having these discussions with friends of yours and showing a kind and good heart.

[TheSkronkDonkey]

Originally Posted by Amy

Indeed, it would be better simplified as a sphere. With one dimension, the circle representing different spots on the sexual preference spectrum - same sex attraction, asexuality, transexual attraction, pansexuality, etc. And another dimension at right angles to it, the full spectrum of genders. Male, female, transmen/women, hemaphrodites, etc. And the third dimension perhaps representing sexual preferences outside of those reliant upon the genitalia of your partner(s).

Hmmm.

I had a hard time visualising this.

I quickly realised the problem was that a circle is already two-dimensional, but you treated it like it was one-dimensional and then added two more. Can anyone imagine more than three dimensions? It's very hard!

But I like your idea and it may just be a case of semantics. Rather than dimensions, I think you can use the example of the Earth. There, we describe things in terms of latitude and longitude. That's two co-ordinates. Then you'd be wanting a third to describe height: altitude.

Unfortunately, even with a model this seemingly benign, there are problems. Because we tend to find unconscious symbolism in everything (millions of years of biological evolution for you), it could be very easy for some to fancy they're at an apex literally and metaphorically, for example.

I don't think there is an obvious explanation to sexual attraction. It will probably forever have some degree of mystery attached to it. If we're stupid, we'll enshrine mystery or ignore it. If we're clever, we'll have a healthy admiration and respect for it, seeing it as something that should both humble us and drive us forward in our desire to understand. I'm very Einsteinian like that.

Originally Posted by Bionca

Donkey -

I agree with your post, but that's not why I'm responding. I want to thank you for having these discussions with friends of yours and showing a kind and good heart.

Awww, Bionca.

You pay me too much credit. The kind and good heart is yours, not mine.

Firstly, to say I have these discussions with friends is something of a misnomer. What I very, very occasionally have are slightly heated exchanges that arise when ignorant statements are made and I feel inclined to counter them. I am not the most assertive or confident of people. I wish I could honestly be less self-conscious and say what I really think and feel more often.

In the other examples I gave, I remained quiet -- even though I detested hearing what I did. The cowardly side of my nature, the dominant side, won, as usual. But whether I say everything or nothing at all, every example gets me really steamed. I was looking on wikipedia recently and wondered if I may have something like BPD (Borderline Personality Disorder). I'm not sure I do, but there is definitely something in my nature that takes things personally to the nth degree at times, and, in turn, makes me wonder what my "real" self is and can I ever be secure and happy with it?

I just remembered another example from work. Again, I did nothing. A young woman at work was showing some colleagues, including myself, some pictures of someone she knows in her home country (she's Polish). The pictures were of a female bodybuilder. The young woman was pulling faces and remarked that it was disgusting. That's a fine way to treat someone you knew or know, right? Some of my colleagues were giggling or making comments, and even I kinda satirically said something like, "I think we've found you a girlfriend, [XXX]". I didn't say anything demeaning, per se, but I contributed to that atmosphere and I wondered why I did that afterwards.

Plus, I am not free of prejudice myself. Although I am not keen to admit it, I have a problem with fat people. Not people that are overweight, but people that are medically obese. I have a kind of vague disdain for them in my head. I know two people like that (one is an on-off friend and the other is the girlfriend of my best mate who I wrote about earlier). What these two have in common is that they both claim to exercise, but admit that they love their food. I see this as something of a contradiction and can't help but feel slightly disgusted. Not by them, per se. Just the attitude that they convey. But I wonder if it isn't exactly the same thing. Oddly, though, I went out for a drink with another mate the other week and he was telling me a story (he works in a hospital) about a morbidly obese woman who was having surgery to clamp her stomach (or whatever). He said that that was all well and good, but if they didn't change their ways after that, they didn't deserve more medical treatment. I told him he was being prejudiced and absurd. So I contradict myself to some degree, I guess.

P.S. In retrospect, the name "TheSkronkDonkey" is stupid. I wanted a quirky porn name and that just struck me as amusing, given that I first read the word "skronk" in reference to Prince (or his guitar-playing or somesuch) and it seemed funny in front of the word "donkey" (that I randomly picked from my head). Now, I kinda regret having it because it makes me look like a rabid porn addict (which I am, but that's beside the point ).

[racquel]

Originally Posted by Bionca

Personally, I think this whole thing is bound up with gay guy's obsessive fetish of landing a straight guy. Since they want one, we obviously must have gone through this so we could do it more easily.

Well, some of them definitely resent the few straight guys who try to pick us up.

Tranny chasers are often a bit brooding/antisocial/creepy (maybe because they don't fit in at a gay bar because they're just there looking for tgirls) but I've still seen gay guys get a real jealous vibe when a straight guy is hitting on me. They didn't want the T in GLBT in the first place, and now those damn trannies are taking the only masculine guys who go to gay bars!

I've had drag queens try to hit on guys that were hitting on me, then get all pissed off because the guy wasn't interested. Sorry! Maybe he's just not looking for a 200 lb. fag with a feather boa and ridiculous fake eyelashes! And I've even seen gay guys try to pick up tranny chasers by saying how hot they look in drag.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by racquel

Tranny chasers are often a bit brooding/antisocial/creepy...

Oooh... I hope not...

Well, I actually once had a conversation with a Danish T-girl who truly dreamed of finding a non-tranny chaser straight guy. I guess her "logic" was that bagging such a guy would be constant proof of her "passability" as a "real" woman. To her being a trans-woman was apparently not as good as being a cisgender woman.

On the other hand, the absolute majority of trans-women that I've met over time have more or less unanimously been completely content with their unique gender dispositions - which I, obviously, applaud!

Actually, regarding my initial posting here, what my gay "opponent" seemed to have mixed up in his mind was the use of terms. He was actually referring to certain gay transvestites that will, undoubtedly, dress up to get the guys... but he insisted on them being transsexual which they are ofcourse not.

So be it :-)

H

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by Bionca

One bit that seriously gets me is how totally impossible it is to have an organic relationship. Relationships center on being trans* - either BECAUSE of it, or IN SPITE of it. I can't just go out, have chemistry with a guy, and see what comes next.

I guess that by the sentence "either BECAUSE of it" you refer to guys who're basicly only in it for the sex?

I actually don't think it's impossible at all to have a very organic and absolutely sane relationship. Yes, ofcourse, we've talked about transsexuality - it would be kinda strange if we didn't - and yes, we most likely wouldn't have had a relationship at all, if it weren't for her transsexuality and my obvious attraction to "the third gender". But the relationships have been based on exactly the same aspects that I guess most people's relationships are based on: namely giant boobies, a big ass and comparing dick-sizes... Oh well...

No seriously, her transsexuality is ofcourse not in itself enough to base a relationship on. As being a woman (cisgendered) or a man aren't either. And I do dare postulate that I've had some pretty sane and deep relationships with some pretty sane and deep ladies - of what ever gender, I can even say. The dynamics of a good relationship are not genderrelated, I believe...

Or am I completely wrong here...?

H

[racquel]

Originally Posted by hankhavelock

Oooh... I hope not...

So do I.

It's not that I have such low self-esteem that I call everybody who could ever be interested in me a creepy tranny chaser. But there are a lot. Even the ones who seem normal will often say totally inappropriate things that they would never say to a GG. A couple weeks ago a cute military guy was talking to me at a bar. After about about 20 seconds of conversation decided he had to describe in detail how large his cock was and how much trouble I'd have fitting it in my mouth, then five minutes later he seemed confused and hurt that I didn't want to hang out with him on the porch when he went out to smoke...

But I'll certainly give you the benefit of the doubt.

[hankhavelock]

Originally Posted by racquel

So do I.

It's not that I have such low self-esteem that I call everybody who could ever be interested in me a creepy tranny chaser. But there are a lot. Even the ones who seem normal will often say totally inappropriate things that they would never say to a GG. A couple weeks ago a cute military guy was talking to me at a bar. After about about 20 seconds of conversation decided he had to describe in detail how large his cock was and how much trouble I'd have fitting it in my mouth, then five minutes later he seemed confused and hurt that I didn't want to hang out with him on the porch when he went out to smoke...

But I'll certainly give you the benefit of the doubt.

Well, come on down here and give me the benefit of the doubt in person :-)

I have a fine place, and you're welcome to stay over ;-)

Seriously, I think that aside from the bullshitters a few guys are genuine. But they are horribly insecure. They simply don't know how to handle a gorgeous trans-woman. They may be of their best intentions, but they become weird, inarticulate and stupid because they cannot handle it - especially not in a face to face situation.

Bear with them a little bit - don't judge them too hard, baby. Remember, you live in America (don't you?), the socalled land of "freedom", where religion, politics and normal "ethics" make this thing hard...

So if the guy is just remotely cute and "un-freaky" and not toooooooooo creepy, then give him, too, the benefit of the doubt.

Remember that guys are not as strong as women! Remember that the struggle, that you have been through, is TONS heavier, than what he will ever have to carry...

When I met my first trans-woman she was far from being sarcastic or intimidating... she reeled me in in a good way... she understood that I might have had some doubts (well, I didn't), and she had prepared for that.

Don't expect some idiotic little soldier boy to be man enuff to accept his own attractions. But HELP him to understand them. HELP the poor, hetero-vanilla-bastard to grasp what it is he really needs and wants... help him to love you and help him to remove ALL the guilt... because you're so much further in such matters than he is!

Or better... come here in stead ;-)

H