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  #101  
Old 11-04-2011
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This would be your fantasy world... That the occupy nuts are actually 99% of the population. That 99% of the population barely makes enough to survive. And that the 1% are so afraid. Strange fantasy, but despite any facts this is your persistent view of the world.
Jen NEVER, EVER said the occupiers "are" 99 percent of the population.
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  #102  
Old 11-06-2011
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It's notable that you love to tout the U.S. Constitution, but when the Oakland Police attack a peaceful demonstration and injure a veteran U.S. Marine you don't use the word "mob" to describe the cops.
The mob I described was not peaceful.

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The so-called anarchist "Black Block" members who "instigated" violence in Oakland on Wednesday night ... well, there is a time-honored tradition in the United States (and elsewhere) of employing agents-provocateurs to deal with protests. The majority -- the overwhelming majority -- of the Occupy Oakland protestors renounce the violence.
Looks like the Occupy movement has a public relations problem on their hands. They have the ex-Acorn members illegally raising funds for the occupy movement and these anarchists creating an image the peace-loving occupiers don't want associated with them. They might want to take a stand and denounce them, or have their movement hijacked.
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  #103  
Old 11-06-2011
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The mob I described was not peaceful.

Looks like the Occupy movement has a public relations problem on their hands. They have the ex-Acorn members illegally raising funds for the occupy movement and these anarchists creating an image the peace-loving occupiers don't want associated with them. They might want to take a stand and denounce them, or have their movement hijacked.
Wow, you are just ripe for repeating whatever drivel Fox News creates for propaganda purposes. Prove any of the ACORN crap, Tracy. I dare you to prove that ACORN itself has anything to do with this.

Last edited by smc; 11-07-2011 at 08:55 AM.
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  #104  
Old 11-07-2011
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Wow, you are just ripe for repeating whatever drivel Fox News creates for propaganda purposes. Proved any of the ACORN crap, Tracy. I dare you to prove that ACORN itself has anything to do with this.
I though ACORN had been killed by Republicans in their ever present zeal to keep the working class from voting.
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  #105  
Old 11-07-2011
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
This would be your fantasy world... That the occupy nuts are actually 99% of the population. That 99% of the population barely makes enough to survive. And that the 1% are so afraid. Strange fantasy, but despite any facts this is your persistent view of the world.

I hate to break your fanasties of me but i never said i was living in Central park and carring a pickit sign or did or have i ever said i endorse or support the Occ Walstreet movement
I only stated that all the Middle East uprisings started just about the same way
But if things keep going as they are the warning signs are there and it could happen
And a GOP president who only wants to give the top 5 percent another windfall and put more nails in the coffen of the middleclass will be the match that lights the fire

Jerseygirl Jen
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  #106  
Old 11-07-2011
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I hate to break your fanasties of me but i never said i was living in Central park and carring a pickit sign or did or have i ever said i endorse or support the Occ Walstreet movement
I only stated that all the Middle East uprisings started just about the same way
But if things keep going as they are the warning signs are there and it could happen
And a GOP president who only wants to give the top 5 percent another windfall and put more nails in the coffen of the middleclass will be the match that lights the fire

Jerseygirl Jen
You go, girl. In the words of Jack Dempsey: "All the time he's boxing, he's thinking. All the time he was thinking, I was hitting him."
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  #107  
Old 11-09-2011
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Penny Arcade's Introduction to Collective Bargaining:

(could not help myself)

http://penny-arcade.com/comic/2011/11/04
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  #108  
Old 11-12-2011
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Default Jobs Jobs And More Jobs

All eight GOP hopefulls all claim if elected they'll create jobs jobs and more jobs
You ask any of the eight and each claim they'll in act the policies that will get America working agian
All we need to do is cut taxes for the rich and the corprations
OK lets get this straight we need to cut taxes on the rich and it will trickle down plus create jobs hmmnn why does this sound eamiler oh yeah W already cut taxes for the rich and those cuts are still in affect so then the unenployment rate should be around 4 percent after all cut taxes for the rich it creates jobs and the tax cuts have been in effect since 01
Oh yeah trickle down with all the cuts the rich recieved from W the poverty rate should be way down but instead it has exploded
Now they claim that the corprate tax rate is too high and is the highest in the world at 35 percent
but the leave out that almost none pay that 35 percent most pay 9 percent and the top money makers pay a neg tax rate meaning the pay nothing and get a big return to boot
So all of the GOP job creating plans are already in effect and yet unemployment is at 9 percent
And in 08 i believe the GOP claimed it's not goverments job to create jobs
So the GOP plan is do nothing and make W's tax cut perment and make em biger
After all look at how succefull they have been so far
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  #109  
Old 11-12-2011
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Originally Posted by transjen View Post
All eight GOP hopefulls all claim if elected they'll create jobs jobs and more jobs
You ask any of the eight and each claim they'll in act the policies that will get America working agian
All we need to do is cut taxes for the rich and the corprations
OK lets get this straight we need to cut taxes on the rich and it will trickle down plus create jobs hmmnn why does this sound eamiler oh yeah W already cut taxes for the rich and those cuts are still in affect so then the unenployment rate should be around 4 percent after all cut taxes for the rich it creates jobs and the tax cuts have been in effect since 01
Oh yeah trickle down with all the cuts the rich recieved from W the poverty rate should be way down but instead it has exploded
Now they claim that the corprate tax rate is too high and is the highest in the world at 35 percent
but the leave out that almost none pay that 35 percent most pay 9 percent and the top money makers pay a neg tax rate meaning the pay nothing and get a big return to boot
So all of the GOP job creating plans are already in effect and yet unemployment is at 9 percent
And in 08 i believe the GOP claimed it's not goverments job to create jobs
So the GOP plan is do nothing and make W's tax cut perment and make em biger
After all look at how succefull they have been so far
Jerseygirl Jen
Thanks, Jen, for continuing point out the ridiculousness of the "trickle-down" theories of economics.

Earlier this year, John McCain proposed a plan for yet another "corporate tax holiday" that shows just who this trickle-down bullshit is really meant to serve.

Multinational corporations got their allies in Congress, like McCain, to push for this "tax repatriation holiday" that would allow them to bring money they've stashed overseas back to the United States at a rate far below the usual 35-percent tax. McCain's proposal is for an 8.25-percent rate, which would then be lowered to 5.25 percent if they could prove they used the money to create jobs.

This was done in 2004. What happened? Corporations used the money they "repatriated" to buy back stock on the markets and give big bonuses to executives. No jobs were created. Since then, the same corporations have continued to cut jobs and move billions of additional dollars offshore.

McCain's proposal for the special even-lower rate for "job creation" is precisely because not everyone has forgotten the 2004 fiasco. Speaking at the Washington Summit sponsored by Reuters last Tuesday, November 8, McCain was asked about 2004 and how the repatriated money might really be used. His response was one of the most cynical statements ever from a supporter of trickle-down bullshit:

"If you brought $1.5 trillion back to the United States of America, it?s bound to have some positive effect somewhere. I don?t see how it would not. Even if they buy more yachts and ? corporate jets and all that, it?s bound to have some effect."

Now, before Tracy Coxx comes on here to argue that having corporations spend money on yachts and jets would actually stimulate the economy in some sense, I will concede the point. But let's look at this through a broader lens: John McCain is on the same side of every one of the Republican candidates for president this year. He has joined in blocking every piece of legislation that has come up recently to create jobs (except for the veterans bill that passed this week). His trickle-down idea is to give corporations a massive, MASSIVE tax break in the hope that they buy luxury goods and thus boost employment.

Cynical? In the words of Sarah Palin, "You betcha!"
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  #110  
Old 11-12-2011
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I predict Tracy will write a thoughtful, touching panegyric--where it is made clear the rich are poor distraught victims--to the powerful and that awesome and inspiring virtue that is Greed. Blessings be upon thine Green Lord.

We shall cry. We shall weep and o! how we will hate the fact we cannot hold Tracy to us.
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  #111  
Old 11-20-2011
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Corporate America and the Police force:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5N4o...eature=related
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  #112  
Old 11-20-2011
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I amazed at the content of this thread. With all that is going on in this world the majority of the content here is about the US. Are those posting here so myopic that they can't see beyond the borders of the US. Wake up people. There are events happening all over the world that are affecting the complete world economy.
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  #113  
Old 11-20-2011
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Part 2 of previous video. Unfortunately the retired police officer is not present:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CtfgK...eature=related
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  #114  
Old 11-21-2011
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Originally Posted by ila View Post
I amazed at the content of this thread. With all that is going on in this world the majority of the content here is about the US. Are those posting here so myopic that they can't see beyond the borders of the US. Wake up people. There are events happening all over the world that are affecting the complete world economy.
Many people on this thread are of the Bush's Fault camp or of the Occupy gangs. They can't see the big picture in our own country... you expect them to notice the world economy?
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  #115  
Old 11-21-2011
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Many people on this thread are of the Bush's Fault camp or of the Occupy gangs. They can't see the big picture in our own country... you expect them to notice the world economy?
Tracy, it reads to me as if you've decided to become a troll again, with your unjustifiable generalization through the use of "gangs." Are you capable of having an honest political discussion? (I believe the history of your participation here would make the answer a resounding NO.)

I have been painted with this broad brush by your post, and yet I will put my knowledge of the world economy against yours any time, any where, in any way.
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  #116  
Old 11-22-2011
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Many people on this thread are of the Bush's Fault camp or of the Occupy gangs. They can't see the big picture in our own country... you expect them to notice the world economy?
You will take any excuse, however flimsy, to rag on people who actually give a shit, don't you?
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  #117  
Old 11-22-2011
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Bloomber now, Bloomberg tomorrow, Bloomberg forever! A Special Comment by Keith Olbermann:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iNmM...ure=digest_tue
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  #118  
Old 11-22-2011
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Bloomber now, Bloomberg tomorrow, Bloomberg forever! A Special Comment by Keith Olbermann:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1iNmM...ure=digest_tue
Not sure after watching this if i should laught or cry

But the little history lesson in the begining is why they no longer teach history in US schools and if history classes do return to US schools Newt would want the students to use that time to do there janitor duties to learn there work ethic
but looking back at history the GOP always did say that anyone not goose stepping along with them are unamerican and pinko commie fags
So grab an American flag drape it over your shoulders and start goose stepping along with the GOP
Jerseygirl Jen
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  #119  
Old 11-27-2011
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Third Rail?:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ackdown-occupy
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  #120  
Old 11-27-2011
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Naomi Wolf's thesis is important and interesting, but I think she hurts herself by referring to this as the "third rail." Why? Because in the American political vernacular, "third rail" is widely known to refer to Social Security. Hence, she inadvertently sows confusion.
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  #121  
Old 11-27-2011
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Naomi Wolf's thesis is important and interesting, but I think she hurts herself by referring to this as the "third rail." Why? Because in the American political vernacular, "third rail" is widely known to refer to Social Security. Hence, she inadvertently sows confusion.
I didn't see any confusion as she explained what she meant by the third rail.
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  #122  
Old 11-27-2011
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It was clear to me what she meant. And I think she?s right. She could also have said something like ?touched a nerve.? But touching the ?third rail? has more powerful and deadly connotations.

Don?t forget I lived in NYC for a short time and used to ride the subway!
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  #123  
Old 11-27-2011
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Naomi Wolf's thesis is important and interesting, but I think she hurts herself by referring to this as the "third rail." Why? Because in the American political vernacular, "third rail" is widely known to refer to Social Security. Hence, she inadvertently sows confusion.
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I didn't see any confusion as she explained what she meant by the third rail.
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It was clear to me what she meant. And I think she?s right. She could also have said something like ?touched a nerve.? But touching the ?third rail? has more powerful and deadly connotations.

Don?t forget I lived in NYC for a short time and used to ride the subway!
It was clear to me, too. I guess I didn't do a good enough job of making my point, which is that when wants to create a political shorthand for something it is best not to choose a term that is already in widespread use as shorthand for something else.
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  #124  
Old 11-27-2011
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It was clear to me, too. I guess I didn't do a good enough job of making my point, which is that when wants to create a political shorthand for something it is best not to choose a term that is already in widespread use as shorthand for something else.
The term "Third Rail" may has one meaning in the US, but the linked article was written for a newspaper in the UK where the term "Third Rail" has a different meaning. Therefore the journalist's use of "Third Rail" was perfectly reasonable and no doubt would not have confused her readers.
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  #125  
Old 11-27-2011
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The term "Third Rail" may has one meaning in the US, but the linked article was written for a newspaper in the UK where the term "Third Rail" has a different meaning. Therefore the journalist's use of "Third Rail" was perfectly reasonable and no doubt would not have confused her readers.
Naomi Wolf is an American and was writing about U.S. politics. Her article has been reposted all over the place; today, a leaflet reproduction of it was being handed out at Occupy Boston.

I am not trying to score points with my critique of her word choice. Why is it being interpreted in such a way?
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  #126  
Old 11-28-2011
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Naomi Wolf is an American and was writing about U.S. politics. Her article has been reposted all over the place; today, a leaflet reproduction of it was being handed out at Occupy Boston.
I didn't know she was American, although I suppose I could have looked up her personal information, but I had no reason to do so.

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I am not trying to score points with my critique of her word choice. Why is it being interpreted in such a way?
I never intimated that you were trying to score points with her word choice. Don't read things into my posts that aren't there.
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  #127  
Old 11-28-2011
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I didn't know she was American, although I suppose I could have looked up her personal information, but I had no reason to do so.



I never intimated that you were trying to score points with her word choice. Don't read things into my posts that aren't there.
I didn't think I was. I was simply baffled by why the discussion went on as long as it did. Sorry, my friend.
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  #128  
Old 11-29-2011
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You two are so cute together.
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The Great American Bubble Machine by Matt Taibbi:

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...chine-20100405
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Tracy, it reads to me as if you've decided to become a troll again, with your unjustifiable generalization through the use of "gangs." Are you capable of having an honest political discussion? (I believe the history of your participation here would make the answer a resounding NO.)

I have been painted with this broad brush by your post, and yet I will put my knowledge of the world economy against yours any time, any where, in any way.
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. I don't go for politically correct lingo. It is what it is. I have justified my characterization of the occupists as gangs and you need to recognize that. You don't have to agree with me, but at least do as I do and recognize that everyone has their own perceptions. Like with your hope for the country eventually completely changing the constitution, I'm not going to keep at you and keep at you until I can "cure" you. It's your view and that's fine. I'm not going to whine about your view and not going to call you names, that's who you are, and you can accept me for who I am. On a forum like this I wouldn't think that's asking too much.
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Here's a different perspective on OWS. You won't like it. You'll call me a troll, and I'll say no, it's called another viewpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJEbWMS_IHE
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck. I don't go for politically correct lingo. It is what it is. I have justified my characterization of the occupists as gangs and you need to recognize that. You don't have to agree with me, but at least do as I do and recognize that everyone has their own perceptions. Like with your hope for the country eventually completely changing the constitution, I'm not going to keep at you and keep at you until I can "cure" you. It's your view and that's fine. I'm not going to whine about your view and not going to call you names, that's who you are, and you can accept me for who I am. On a forum like this I wouldn't think that's asking too much.
More of your dissembling ...

The difference is that I am addressing your use of language and that you use particular words deliberately to provoke. That is what it means to be a troll. When I raise a question of changing the U.S. Constitution, I don't call people who defend it by names. You are called a troll not for your defense of the Constitution.

This isn't about being politically correct or not.

I have written time and again that I consider you to be an intelligent person. Therefore, I know when you are being a troll, because you are intelligent enough to choose specifically to be one. But perhaps I am wrong. Maybe you really don't get it. (I doubt that.)

I have never sought to "cure" you of your opinions, only to point out that you discuss dishonestly and that you behave like a troll. This is a community, and time and again you disrespect the community with your troll behavior.

You're right: "It is what it is." And what it is is this: you post like a troll, get called on it, and then you're the one who tries to change the subject. That is it's own unique form of whining.

As for the use of the word "gang," let me ask you these questions (two of many examples I could pose):

- When the Republicans in Florida organized political operatives to go to the Broward County Board of Elections and pound on the door as they were doing their recount, and act threateningly, and get in the elevator with election workers and menace them, was that a "gang"?

- When the Tea Party in Virginia posted Congressman Tom Perriello's address on the Web and encouraged people to visit him and "express their thanks" for his yes vote on the Obama healthcare bill, but they mistakenly posted his brother's address, and the brother had the gas line to his home severed, were they behaving like a "gang"? (This is an example from dozens where the Tea Party encouraged vigilante-like action against elected representatives).

You want to reserve for yourself the right to use troll language but claim that it's all about the right to one's personal "perspective." To quote the inimitable Tracy Coxx: "If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck it's a duck."
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More of your dissembling ...

The difference is that I am addressing your use of language and that you use particular words deliberately to provoke. That is what it means to be a troll.
Actually what it means is:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

My posting about ows being gangs was neither extraneous or off-topic. This thread is called Today's Political Landscape. Do you deny that OWS is part of today's political landscape? It is on topic. Does it provoke readers into an emotional response? You assume what I said was to provoke. Let's be honest. Anything I post which you do not agree with will elicit an emotional response by you. Care must then be taken with that definition because it assumes that discussion can be had without an emotional response. As long as any and all opinions of mine that you don't agree with elicits an emotional response from you, your accusations of being a troll are obligatory responses that should be ignored. Unfortunately you take advantage of the fact that the more you say something, true or not, the more people believe it.

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When I raise a question of changing the U.S. Constitution, I don't call people who defend it by names. You are called a troll not for your defense of the Constitution.
And you're intelligent enough to know that I never said or implied that I was called a troll for my defense of the Constitution.

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I have never sought to "cure" you of your opinions, only to point out that you discuss dishonestly
Wrong. I honestly believe that some people within the occupy protests behave as gangs.

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Originally Posted by smc View Post
As for the use of the word "gang," let me ask you these questions (two of many examples I could pose):

- When the Republicans in Florida organized political operatives to go to the Broward County Board of Elections and pound on the door as they were doing their recount, and act threateningly, and get in the elevator with election workers and menace them, was that a "gang"?
Knowing how you mischaracterize sometimes, I would like to see video of that since I have no knowledge of that.

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Originally Posted by smc View Post
- When the Tea Party in Virginia posted Congressman Tom Perriello's address on the Web and encouraged people to visit him and "express their thanks" for his yes vote on the Obama healthcare bill, but they mistakenly posted his brother's address, and the brother had the gas line to his home severed, were they behaving like a "gang"? (This is an example from dozens where the Tea Party encouraged vigilante-like action against elected representatives).
Accidentally giving the wrong address aside, if what you say had happened, then obviously it is gang behavior.

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Originally Posted by smc View Post
You want to reserve for yourself the right to use troll language but claim that it's all about the right to one's personal "perspective."
Yes, and it's well known that my personal perspective offends you. Everything that proceeds from that fact becomes quite predictable and monotonous. So with that, I'll get back to the topic as people can read for themselves how these "You're a troll" "Am not" "Are too" conversations go as they are all over the political threads.

And yes, I did notice that you moved to your default position of attacking the poster (not the topic of the thread btw) rather than the well said anti-occupy video I posted.
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As exasperating as arguing with you is, Tracy, the one thing that makes it easy is that you are so consistent.

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Actually what it means is:
In Internet slang, a troll is someone who posts inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum, chat room, or blog, with the primary intent of provoking readers into an emotional response or of otherwise disrupting normal on-topic discussion.

My posting about ows being gangs was neither extraneous or off-topic. This thread is called Today's Political Landscape. Do you deny that OWS is part of today's political landscape? It is on topic. Does it provoke readers into an emotional response? You assume what I said was to provoke. Let's be honest. Anything I post which you do not agree with will elicit an emotional response by you. Care must then be taken with that definition because it assumes that discussion can be had without an emotional response. As long as any and all opinions of mine that you don't agree with elicits an emotional response from you, your accusations of being a troll are obligatory responses that should be ignored. Unfortunately you take advantage of the fact that the more you say something, true or not, the more people believe it.
Putting aside that this same thing could be said of you -- "you take advantage of the fact that the more you say something, true or not, the more people believe it" -- what is most notable in your response is that you provide a definition that includes three elements: "inflammatory, extraneous, or off-topic messages". You then go on to defend your post because it is neither "extraneous" nor "off-topic." Of course, what I have said consistently is that your troll-like behavior is of the deliberately INFLAMMATORY variety. I leave the fact that you dealt with the other two, but not that one, for others to interpret (and we have a lot of really smart people reading these posts ).

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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
And you're intelligent enough to know that I never said or implied that I was called a troll for my defense of the Constitution.
Nor did I ever suggest that you had done so. But by writing what I quote above, you trick the less-careful reader, or the reader who hasn't followed every bit of the exchange, into thinking that I did. We study that kind of thing in my rhetoric classes. It derives from the Greek Sophists, who were masters of what most accurately should be called rhetorical bullshit.

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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Wrong. I honestly believe that some people within the occupy protests behave as gangs.
As is typical, once you are called out for your troll-like inflammatory language, you begin to retreat. In Post 114, you wrote: "Many people on this thread are of the Bush's Fault camp or of the Occupy gangs."

No one reading that can fail to notice that now you say "some people ... behave as gangs," whereas I responded (quite specifically) to your generalization when using the term. So, shall we take this to be your way of admitting that the generalization was wrong?


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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Knowing how you mischaracterize sometimes, I would like to see video of that since I have no knowledge of that.
I will look for video. Meanwhile, you can search news archives from the time, and add Miami-Dade to the mix. You will find newspaper reports of the Bush campaign hiring a "mob" and of the Justice Department launching an investigation. Of course, once Bush became president, the investigation was quietly dropped. Lest you claim that I am mischaracterizing that last point, historians from all across the political spectrum agree that the Bush Justice Department -- independent of the content of the politics -- was the most politicized Justice Department of the modern era.

By the way, I find it hard to believe you "have no knowledge" of these events. You registered on this site with a birthday that makes you old enough to have been cognizant of what was holding the United States at the edge of its collective seat during that period, and unless your interest in politics is a recent phenomenon, you would have had to shut your eyes and ears to miss the reporting.


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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Accidentally giving the wrong address aside, if what you say had happened, then obviously it is gang behavior.
Nice of you to say so. Meanwhile, as for the method of discourse, I refer readers to my response above regarding the clever implication that I may have made up what was widely reported in the media, that was addressed by the Virgina Tea Party leaders, and what became the subject of investigation by law enforcement agencies.

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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Yes, and it's well known that my personal perspective offends you. Everything that proceeds from that fact becomes quite predictable and monotonous. So with that, I'll get back to the topic as people can read for themselves how these "You're a troll" "Am not" "Are too" conversations go as they are all over the political threads.

And yes, I did notice that you moved to your default position of attacking the poster (not the topic of the thread btw) rather than the well said anti-occupy video I posted.
Your double standard is quite appalling. I hadn't gotten a chance to watch the video (which is nearly 10 minutes long) but have every intention of responding. You disappear for days at a time after posting things and getting responses.

But, by writing what I quote just above, you get to create the illusion that I am either afraid to respond to a post, or that I can't because I don't know what to say, or that I deliberately ignore something, or whatever. It's all of a type, and it's why you get called out on your method time and again.
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Here's a different perspective on OWS. You won't like it. You'll call me a troll, and I'll say no, it's called another viewpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJEbWMS_IHE
I will comment extensively on this, but first I want to ask Tracy Coxx a direct question:

Do you, Tracy Coxx, agree with the perspective of Adam Carolla as expressed in this video, including his analysis of what drives the Occupy Wall Street protesters?
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I will comment extensively on this, but first I want to ask Tracy Coxx a direct question:

Do you, Tracy Coxx, agree with the perspective of Adam Carolla as expressed in this video, including his analysis of what drives the Occupy Wall Street protesters?
I'm not totally blind to corruption on Wall Street & some bankers. I posted this 3 years ago: http://forum.transladyboy.com/showpo...postcount=1406
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx
Oh yes, republicans screwed up everything and it's all under control now. BO has Corporate America under control now huh... BO's own secretary of treasury, Tim Geithner, allowed Steven Friedman to oversee Goldman Sachs. Who's Friedman? Former chairman of Goldman Sachs and was on the board of directors. Geithner OK'd this conflict of interest. Geithner also allows Friedman to keep his 52000 shares of Goldman Sachs stock while he oversees Goldman Sachs. Oh, and btw, Goldman Sachs stock rose from $78/share to $167 per share over the last year.

There's a new lobbyist for Goldman Sachs. Michael Pease. He's joining the director of government affairs. They hired him because their previous lobbyist, Mark Patterson, has been named the chief of staff for Timothy Geithner. Michael Pease is now in Barney Frank's office.
But you don't throw out what drives America's economy over a few bad eggs. You throw the bad eggs out. A lot of what Occupy wants simply baffles me. I cannot see any rational thought behind it. If you follow their goals to their logical ends, you'll further destroy our economy. I do agree with Adam Carolla that a large part of the motivation is envy. Not because I know this to be true, but it's the only thing that explains what looks like irrational behavior. My relatives who empathize with occupists post weird crap on facebook like Black Friday: Buy Nothing Day - an international day of protest against consumerism. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know we're in a recession right? You know what happens if people stop buying stuff right? I seriously do not understand what motivates these people.
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- When the Tea Party in Virginia posted Congressman Tom Perriello's address on the Web and encouraged people to visit him and "express their thanks" for his yes vote on the Obama healthcare bill, but they mistakenly posted his brother's address, and the brother had the gas line to his home severed, were they behaving like a "gang"? (This is an example from dozens where the Tea Party encouraged vigilante-like action against elected representatives).
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Accidentally giving the wrong address aside, if what you say had happened, then obviously it is gang behavior.
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Nice of you to say so.
So what this shows is that you can identify gang behavior, but deny it exists when it applies to some members of the occupy movement.
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So what this shows is that you can identify gang behavior, but deny it exists when it applies to some members of the occupy movement.
The conclusion you draw from this particular exchange is so illogical as to be laughable. Your clever use of rhetorical devices from the Sophists has failed you this time, on an epic level.

Further, it's notable that you only respond to one of the many aspects of the post. But it's okay, I get it.

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Tracy Coxx, you posted the link to the Adam Carolla rant with the following words:

Quote:
Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Here's a different perspective on OWS. You won't like it. You'll call me a troll, and I'll say no, it's called another viewpoint.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJEbWMS_IHE
In other words, you suggest it is a legitimate “viewpoint” in a serious discussion.

In nearly 10 foul-mouthed minutes, Carolla displays that he knows absolutely nothing of the Occupy Wall Street movement, its broad demands and aspirations, nor anything about the real people who make up the majority of its constant activists.

For instance, Carolla states:
“We are now dealing with the first wave of ‘participation-trophy, my-own-fecal-matter-doesn’t-stink, empowered, I-feel-so-fucking-good-about-myself, everybody’s-a-winner, there’s-no-losers,’ we are dealing with the first wave of those fucking assholes. That’s who we are dealing with now.”
He refers to the Millenial generation as a bunch of “self-entitled monsters” and “ass-douches.”

He boils the entire movement down to envy and an unwillingness to play by the rules.” He then compares the “rules” of the Wall Street casino, by implication a level playing field, to the rules followed by someone who runs at a good pace in a legitimate 440-yard race at a track meet.” Specifically, he states:
“What we created is a bunch of self-entitled monsters. People are so far out of it in what they expect and what they think realistic is and the set of rules that pertains to them versus the other guys.”
He ends his rant with a comparison of the Occupy movement to the “terrorists” who “blow up our buildings” because they are envious, resentful, and are ultimately driven by shame, and who then rather than decide to get their own “shit together” decide to “tear that guy’s shit down.”

In fact, some specific and unbaffling demands (even if you don’t agree with them) have emerged from the Occupy movement. Public financing of all U.S. political campaigns, to break the link between the government and the corporations. The overturning of the Supreme Court ruling in Citizens United. The elimination of special private benefits and perqs to public servants, such as the “revolving door” with lobbying firms. Elimination of tax loopholes that favor the rich and the corporations. Enactment of comprehensive job-creation legislation. Student loan forgiveness. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.

To suggest that Adam Carolla’s rant and his deliberate ignoring of the real substance of Occupy (whether one agrees with it or not) is part of a legitimate discourse, Tracy Coxx, that it is a legitimate “viewpoint” that might add to the discussion, is an affront to every real discussion about important topics that has ever unfolded on this site.


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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
... But you don't throw out what drives America's economy over a few bad eggs. You throw the bad eggs out. A lot of what Occupy wants simply baffles me. I cannot see any rational thought behind it. If you follow their goals to their logical ends, you'll further destroy our economy. I do agree with Adam Carolla that a large part of the motivation is envy. Not because I know this to be true, but it's the only thing that explains what looks like irrational behavior. My relatives who empathize with occupists post weird crap on facebook like Black Friday: Buy Nothing Day - an international day of protest against consumerism. I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? You know we're in a recession right? You know what happens if people stop buying stuff right? I seriously do not understand what motivates these people.
I respect that you are baffled by Occupy, but I simply don’t believe you when you write that you “cannot see any rational thought behind” the movement. You’re smarter than that. To post this link to Adam Carolla should be an embarrassment to you.

By the way, for those readers who do not know, Adam Carolla is a TV and radio host who has notoriously attacked ethnic groups and women, and now the entire Millenial generation, with useless name-calling that is inappropriate at best and is highly offensive and that has no place in civil discourse at worst. Here are a few examples:
  • 2003 on the TV show “Loveline”: Carolla stated Hawaiians are “dumb” and “in-bred” and “retarded,” and that they are among the “dumbest people we have.”
  • 2010 on “The Adam Carolla Show”: Carolla, speaking of Filipino boxer Manny Pacquiao, cast all sorts of aspersions and then took on the Philippines in general. “They got this and sex tours, that’s all they have over there. Get your shit together Philippines. Jesus Christ. I mean, again, it's fine to be proud of your countrymen. But that's it? That's all you got?” Carolla had to apologize after the office of the Filipino president responded. He said, “I don’t preplan my commentary. I try to be provocative [and] funny but I crossed the line and I'm sorry.” Sounds like a troll, eh?
  • 2011 in one of his podcasts: Carolla, referring to transgender people, asked, “When did we start giving a shit about these people?” Further, he suggested the LGBT designation should be replaced with “YUCK” and that LGBT activists ought to “shut up.”

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In fact, some specific and unbaffling demands (even if you don?t agree with them) have emerged from the Occupy movement. Public financing of all U.S. political campaigns, to break the link between the government and the corporations.
You do that, and every idiot with a gripe will put themselves on the tax-payers payroll. Instead of 12 or so idiots with at least some experience doing something running for president you'll have hundreds of idiots getting paid by tax payers to rant about the government under the guise of a campaign.

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The overturning of the Supreme Court ruling in Citizens United. The elimination of special private benefits and perqs to public servants, such as the ?revolving door? with lobbying firms. Elimination of tax loopholes that favor the rich and the corporations. Enactment of comprehensive job-creation legislation. Student loan forgiveness. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
That's all laughable! oh wait, sorry that's not a response is it? (but I do admit it saves time and effort)

1. Supreme Court ruling in Citizens United
Careful what you wish for smc. You wanted corporations to be taxed like people. All of a sudden corporations are people now. That means they have rights doesn't it? They have the right to freedom of speech don't they?

2. The elimination of special private benefits and perqs to public servants, such as the ?revolving door? with lobbying firms
Eliminate perks to public servants, yes. The revolving door is good in a way because it gets experienced people into government rather than career politicians and lawyers who don't really know the industry they are regulating. It has some good points. Minimize the bad points with rules such as mandating that politicians recuse themselves from committees overseeing industries they just came from within 3 or so years.

3. Enactment of comprehensive job-creation legislation.
Obama has tried this many times. It hadn't worked. His last jobs bill failed to pass. Interestingly unemployment went down afterwards without the stimulus package.

4. Student loan forgiveness.
The country can't afford to take on all these student loans. And it sets a bad example to students as they enter adulthood. Lesson: You don't ask for a loan you don't know you can pay off.

5. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
I'm not up on the Glass-Steagall act or its reasons for repeal. I spent some time looking at it, but not sure which way we should go with it.

I'm sure there are some in the occupy movement that have legitimate gripes about the government and certain fat cat people in wall street who ought to be in jail. Fine. I'd like to see some of them in jail myself. But I also see many pro-occupy people who are anti-corporation... regardless of the corporation, and think that rich people ought to get the shit taxed out of them to support their entitlements. That is who Adam Carolla is directing his ranting towards.

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By the way, for those readers who do not know, Adam Carolla is a TV and radio host who has notoriously attacked ethnic groups and women, and now the entire Millenial generation, with useless name-calling that is inappropriate at best and is highly offensive and that has no place in civil discourse at worst. Here are a few examples:
Just so you know, I have never heard of Adam Carolla before this rant of his. I posted the video because of its criticism of the latest self-empowered, everybody's a winner, no-loser generation.
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Originally Posted by smc View Post
The conclusion you draw from this particular exchange is so illogical as to be laughable. Your clever use of rhetorical devices from the Sophists has failed you this time, on an epic level.
Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule.

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

Example of Appeal to Ridicule
"Sure my worthy opponent claims that we should lower tuition, but that is just laughable."

Since you use this method so often, I assume you teach it to your beloved rhetorics class.
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Old 12-04-2011
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
Fallacy: Appeal to Ridicule.

The Appeal to Ridicule is a fallacy in which ridicule or mockery is substituted for evidence in an "argument."

Example of Appeal to Ridicule
"Sure my worthy opponent claims that we should lower tuition, but that is just laughable."

Since you use this method so often, I assume you teach it to your beloved rhetorics class.
Why don't you show some courage and deal with the substance of what I wrote?!

You painted the occupy MOVEMENT as a gang. I countered that your generalization was false and inappropriate. I also do not believe that exercising your legal right to assembly, even if it happens to be on the public sidewalk outside of the private home of a Wall Street banker, represents "gang" behavior. I may not agree with the tactic -- in fact, I think it is a waste of time -- but I will not characterize it as the behavior of a "gang."

The occasions of gangism I cited stand on their own.

Instead of addressing the substance, you try to shift the terrain. It's so transparent as to be laughable, and you can call it whatever rhetorical device you want. Time after time, you reveal your unwillingness to engage in a real discussion when you have no answer to justify your previous provocations.

Last edited by smc; 12-04-2011 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 12-04-2011
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Originally Posted by TracyCoxx View Post
You do that, and every idiot with a gripe will put themselves on the tax-payers payroll. Instead of 12 or so idiots with at least some experience doing something running for president you'll have hundreds of idiots getting paid by tax payers to rant about the government under the guise of a campaign.
Did you actually spend any time thinking about what you would write in response before your knee jerked? Obviously, as the experience of nearly every industrialized country in the world (and where public financing is the norm), what you fear doesn't happen. Safeguards, reasonably constructed under a system that aims to work and level the playing field, not favor the corporation-humans you consistently defend, ensure that the waste is minimized. I would trade some of my tax money for a less-expensive campaign system that is publicly financed for the Super PACS and other interest groups that can spend unlimited amounts of money, with no transparency, any day of the week.

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1. Supreme Court ruling in Citizens United
Careful what you wish for smc. You wanted corporations to be taxed like people. All of a sudden corporations are people now. That means they have rights doesn't it? They have the right to freedom of speech don't they?
I never said I wanted "corporations to be taxed like people." But by putting those words in my mouth, you get to make your insipid point about freedom of speech. Seriously, this is your response? I bet you'd be embarrassed to say such a thing on a stage, in a public debate, in front of people, when you can't hide behind the Internet.

To equate the "freedom of speech" of people to corporations is an affront to the Bill of Rights, and you know it.


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2. The elimination of special private benefits and perqs to public servants, such as the ?revolving door? with lobbying firms
Eliminate perks to public servants, yes. The revolving door is good in a way because it gets experienced people into government rather than career politicians and lawyers who don't really know the industry they are regulating. It has some good points. Minimize the bad points with rules such as mandating that politicians recuse themselves from committees overseeing industries they just came from within 3 or so years.
Our cemeteries are full of those who paid the ultimate price of having politicians become lobbyists for industry and then being handed the reins of writing regulations for the industries they serve. Ask any worker in the bituminous coal industry of Kentucky, West Virginia, Virginia, and so on.

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3. Enactment of comprehensive job-creation legislation.
Obama has tried this many times. It hadn't worked. His last jobs bill failed to pass. Interestingly unemployment went down afterwards without the stimulus package.
I said nothing about Obama's proposed legislation.

I'd like to see your evidence that the implied direct link between failure of his bill to pass and a decrease in the unemployment rate are positively correlated.


In any case, while some Occupiers may support the specific Obama legislation, I would support something more along the lines of what was done during the Great Depression to put people to work doing what needs to be done. You know as well as the next person, Tracy Coxx, that it is government that builds roads, repairs bridges, and generally deals with infrastructure. We need those things done in the United States. You have no answer for why it shouldn't be done, except to defend the phony "job creators" among the wealthy who economists have proven do not create jobs.

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4. Student loan forgiveness.
The country can't afford to take on all these student loans. And it sets a bad example to students as they enter adulthood. Lesson: You don't ask for a loan you don't know you can pay off.
Imagine if higher education were free in the United States, like it has largely been in most of the rest of the industrialized world. Imagine the innovative spirit of the United States coupled with a highly educated workforce. Imagine paying for this by not building a few aircraft carriers or suspending a few other wasteful defense contracts.

Oh, my god ... that might be SOCIALISM!!!!


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5. Immediate reenactment of the Glass-Steagall Act.
I'm not up on the Glass-Steagall act or its reasons for repeal. I spent some time looking at it, but not sure which way we should go with it.
This isn't rocket science. The Glass-Steagall Act separated bank types into commercial and investment, and established the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC), during the Great Depression. Study after study after study has shown that a huge portion of the things banks have done that caused the economic meltdown that began in 2008 are linked directly to the fact that these two banking functions were consolidated into single "too-big-to-fail" banks. The research is easy to find, and "which way we should go with it" should be quite obvious.

As far as I can tell, the only people who are strongly advocating to keep the overturning of Glass-Steagall from 1999 are mega-bankers and the politicians they own.


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I'm sure there are some in the occupy movement that have legitimate gripes about the government and certain fat cat people in wall street who ought to be in jail. Fine. I'd like to see some of them in jail myself. But I also see many pro-occupy people who are anti-corporation... regardless of the corporation, and think that rich people ought to get the shit taxed out of them to support their entitlements. That is who Adam Carolla is directing his ranting towards.
Why you would choose to be an apologist for Adam Carolla, who says absolutely nothing in his rant to distinguish one Occupier from another, and who paints the entire Millenial generation with his broad brush, is beyond my comprehension ... unless you really do agree with him.

But more interesting would be to learn who you think ought to be in jail, and for what crimes.


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Just so you know, I have never heard of Adam Carolla before this rant of his. I posted the video because of its criticism of the latest self-empowered, everybody's a winner, no-loser generation.
Yeah, well, I would recommend listening again before you again support anything that he says. Do you think his kind of "criticism" is actually productive? What if I just ranted and said the following about every person who works on Wall Street (paraphrasing Carolla):
?We are now dealing with another wave of 'I'm-rich-and-you're-not, my-fecal-matter-smells-better-than-yours, powerful-thanks-to-bought-and-paid-for-politicians-and-regulators, anyone-unemployed-is-a-lazy-fucking-asshole, who-cares-about-losers-who-lose-in-a-rigged-game-on-an-uneven-playing-field, motherfucking-douchebags,' from the lowly accountant at Goldman Sachs all the way up to the CEOS, because if you work for any of these cretins you are no different than the worst of them!"
Would you think that was legitimate criticism, serious and worthy of discussion?
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Old 12-04-2011
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But I also see many pro-occupy people who are anti-corporation... regardless of the corporation, and think that rich people ought to get the shit taxed out of them to support their entitlements. That is who Adam Carolla is directing his ranting towards.
Right, because a ceo, the board of directors and a smattering of majority shareholders controlling the activities of the majority of workers and sitting atop the gains of such social work as occurs in a corporation, that is by no means a tremendous entitlement. Nope, it's not an entitlement at all for the few at the top to get rich off the work, the impoverishment, of the rest.

The ease with which you defend economic inequality, and the parasitic behavior of the rich that causes such inequality, is galling and infuriating.
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Old 12-04-2011
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The ease with which you defend economic inequality, and the parasitic behavior of the rich that causes such inequality, is galling and infuriating.
As I've said in another post. The top 1% of wage earners pay about 38% of the Federal (doesn't include state, county, and city) tax burden. While the bottom 43% of wage earners pay no Federal taxes. With about a third get money back from the government (They pay nothing in, but get money out; I guess that makes them tax takers instead of tax payers.). So, I ask you how those "evil" rich parasites?
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  #146  
Old 12-04-2011
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Ohh, BTW while everyone has been going back and forth about the occupiers, this past week the Senate passed a bill allowing the [US] military to arrest and detain (without trial, possibly indefinitely) American citizens in American. Just some food for thought.
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Old 12-05-2011
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I have to go teach a class in a few minutes, so I cannot provide a complete "program" right now. Here are a few highlights of what I would like to see enshrined in a constitution, with the society that reflects these points. My "bill of rights" would encompass those in the existing First Amendment, but would also include guaranteed rights to a job, healthcare, housing, and education through the university level. Of course, this means organizing society in a much different way to ensure that these rights are granted.
You DO realize that without the SECOND amendment, all the remaining bill of rights amendments (& the rest, but these are the most important) would rapidly be vaporized, don't you?
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My "bill of rights" would encompass those in the existing First Amendment, but would also include guaranteed rights to a job, healthcare, housing, and education through the university level. Of course, this means organizing society in a much different way to ensure that these rights are granted.
First of all, who's gonna pay for these new rights (healthcare, housing, and education)? If we have the government providing everyone with a job [your right to work], it should be something physically demanding with little ay (like digging ditches for $2 an hour), to provide incentive for getting a better job.
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You DO realize that without the SECOND amendment, all the remaining bill of rights amendments (& the rest, but these are the most important) would rapidly be vaporized, don't you?
I agree 100%
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Old 12-05-2011
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First of all, who's gonna pay for these new rights (healthcare, housing, and education)? If we have the government providing everyone with a job [your right to work], it should be something physically demanding with little ay (like digging ditches for $2 an hour), to provide incentive for getting a better job.
You have to adopt a different way of thinking about this country in order to understand the answer. We grow up in the United States being told that it is "the richest country in the world." That's true. The problem is how those riches are spent. In general, spending protects the interests of the ruling rich, with some social spending at a level deemed minimal to maintain social peace. But imagine a different set of priorities. Do you really think that this country cannot afford a first-class education for free for everyone? Free healthcare? Government-paid jobs doing things that only governments do, such as infrastructure improvements (or, in the U.S. case, maintenance of infrastructure just before the coming collapse of bridges, etc.)?

As for the guarantee to a job, it is a matter of the polity adopting a perspective that puts human needs first, and then enforcing that perspective. I'm no big fan of Franklin D. Roosevelt, but a quote from a speech he gave in 1932, accepting the renomination as a presidential candidate, speaks volumes: "We must lay hold of the fact that economic laws are not made by nature. They are made by human beings."

Think "outside the box," instead of accepting the narrow box Americans have been put into by what we're taught, beginning in the earliest grades at school, about individualism. It's a ruse. It's designed to keep Americans from adopting the kind of social solidarity that created, in most of the world's other industrialized nations, a communal sense of social good that explains why people elsewhere are happier, healthier, and more gainfully engaged in work in larger percentages, without any illusions that the good fortune of social safety is somehow the destruction of their free will and opportunities.

Oh, and those are all capitalist countries.
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Old 12-05-2011
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Did you actually spend any time thinking about what you would write in response before your knee jerked?
You wouldn't tolerate this from me, so I won't tolerate it from you.

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I never said I wanted "corporations to be taxed like people."
Sorry, I got what you said confused with Randolph who said:
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Defining a corporation as a person was done back in the 1880s. the purpose was to protect the owners of the corporation from liability suits relating to the corporations activities. Since the corporation is a "person". Liability stays with the corporation and the owners are protected from lawsuits.
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Seriously, this is your response? I bet you'd be embarrassed to say such a thing on a stage, in a public debate, in front of people, when you can't hide behind the Internet.
You wouldn't tolerate this from me, so I won't tolerate it from you.

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I said nothing about Obama's proposed legislation.
Did I say you did? I said it's already been tried by Obama.

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I'd like to see your evidence that the implied direct link between failure of his bill to pass and a decrease in the unemployment rate are positively correlated.
Accuse others of what you do. Do not stick words in my mouth. Or perhaps you'd like to quote where I said there's a direct link between failure of Obama's bill to pass and a decrease in the unemployment rate.

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In any case, while some Occupiers may support the specific Obama legislation, I would support something more along the lines of what was done during the Great Depression to put people to work doing what needs to be done. You know as well as the next person, Tracy Coxx, that it is government that builds roads, repairs bridges, and generally deals with infrastructure. We need those things done in the United States. You have no answer for why it shouldn't be done, except to defend the phony "job creators" among the wealthy who economists have proven do not create jobs.
I never said those jobs shouldn't be done. And I'm fine with them being done by the government. Billion dollar mass transit projects like in my town that only go 7 miles is a waste though.

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Imagine if higher education were free in the United States, like it has largely been in most of the rest of the industrialized world. Imagine the innovative spirit of the United States coupled with a highly educated workforce. Imagine paying for this by not building a few aircraft carriers or suspending a few other wasteful defense contracts.

Oh, my god ... that might be SOCIALISM!!!!
I don't care if education is free as long as it's quality education. That would be great. But face facts. We can't afford it. And get real, we're not going to do it by dropping our defenses.

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Why you would choose to be an apologist for Adam Carolla, who says absolutely nothing in his rant to distinguish one Occupier from another, and who paints the entire Millenial generation with his broad brush, is beyond my comprehension ... unless you really do agree with him.
I'm not an apologist for Adam Carolla. If I were I'd defend him against all the other crap you say he says.

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Yeah, well, I would recommend listening again before you again support anything that he says. Do you think his kind of "criticism" is actually productive? What if I just ranted and said the following about every person who works on Wall Street
Or what if you wrote like you always write on here.

By the way, to others reading this exchange, I would like to remind everyone, and I know I speak for smc as well on this, remember forum rule 4: Do not post people's personal information, or attack people personally, stick to the issues. Do not threaten or put down other users. We strive to make this a friendly place.
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