If a tree falls...

Hope you don't mind me starting this thread. Enoch and smc have brought up an ?age old? question: ?If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound??

The answer, I believe, is ?It depends on what you mean?? Here is my reasoning. When the tree falls there is of course the physical act of it falling. As it falls it passes through the air and also most likely strikes other trees. This action disrupts the surrounding air and creates waves. But is it ?sound?? If there is a living thing around the area that creature will ?perceive? the waves as sound. If there is nothing within range then there is nothing to ?perceive? and hence no sound.

Another example. Say you are watching a thunderstorm. Everyone knows that lightning heating and disrupting the surrounding air creates ?thunder.? But what if you are too far away to ?hear? the thunder? I live in central Indiana in the United States. We have had a lot of storms recently--most right on top of us! But what if you live in one of the large open states like Texas? When travelling across Texas I have often seen thunderstorms at a distance that produce lightning--but no sound. Either I was too far away or the sound was obscured by something else like engine noise or the radio.

Here is my question: If you come across a tree lying on its side in the forest, how do you ?prove? it fell and wasn?t always that way?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by aw9725

Here is my question: If you come across a tree lying on its side in the forest, how do you “prove” it fell and wasn’t always that way?

Because it's a fucking tree. They don't grow like that. But I already expect a response along the lines of: "Have you seen every tree everywhere? Then how can you know that NO TREES grow like that?" At the sight of which I will probably go away and watch some baseball.

Hello aw9725. Back so soon? I think this thread will drive me crazy.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Because it's a fucking tree. They don't grow like that. But I already expect a response along the lines of: "Have you seen every tree everywhere? Then how can you know that NO TREES grow like that?" At the sight of which I will probably go away and watch some baseball.

Hello aw9725. Back so soon? I think this thread will drive me crazy.

Ah, Enoch, relax. Employing the scientific method, general truths based on observation and empirical evidence can be derived that will allow you not to go crazy. Think about what you might observe with respect to the "fallen" tree that could serve as clues.

I won't speak for aw9725, but I will try not to be too professorial going forward.

[smc]

Originally Posted by aw9725

Hope you don't mind me starting this thread. Enoch and smc have brought up an ?age old? question: ?If a tree falls in a forest does it make a sound??

The answer, I believe, is ?It depends on what you mean?? Here is my reasoning. When the tree falls there is of course the physical act of it falling. As it falls it passes through the air and also most likely strikes other trees. This action disrupts the surrounding air and creates waves. But is it ?sound?? If there is a living thing around the area that creature will ?perceive? the waves as sound. If there is nothing within range then there is nothing to ?perceive? and hence no sound.

That is exactly as I see it. If there is no creature whose organ of hearing is within the range of hearing, and if the mechanical wave that is nothing more than an oscillation of pressure transmitted through the air is not sufficiently strong, then it is ONLY a mechanical wave and not sound.

[randolph]

Originally Posted by smc

That is exactly as I see it. If there is no creature whose organ of hearing is within the range of hearing, and if the mechanical wave that is nothing more than an oscillation of pressure transmitted through the air is not sufficiently strong, then it is ONLY a mechanical wave and not sound.

A disturbance in the air can be interpreted by the brain as some form of sound.
Some plants can also respond to vibrations. Tomato blossoms require vibrations to pollinate. Strawberry plants sense vibrations as insect attack and respond with chemicals to resist the attack. So living things can respond to vibrations.
A sound may be defined as a vibration detected by a brain and interpreted as a sound. Typically, a sound would have some meaning, roar of a lion or call of a bird for example.
A tree falling would create a vibration and possibly a screech if it fell on a rabbit, of course, something would have to "hear" the screech.

[Enoch Root]

If this is purely a SEMANTIC argument it is therefore nearly useless to people and is quite quickly dealt with as you randolph and you smc have demonstrated.

[smc]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If this is purely a SEMANTIC argument it is therefore nearly useless to people and is quite quickly dealt with as you randolph and you smc have demonstrated.

No, it's not semantic, at least as I see it. Rather, it is about what constitutes "reality" in some circumstances, and whether certain physical phenomena are real in the abstract or only when they are concretized by experience.

[Enoch Root]

That's what I was trying to get at: the argument is only really useful and really interesting if it is used to ponder reality. But from the previous posts everyone seemed to be talking about what the definition of sound is.