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  #51  
Old 12-19-2012
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Also, the Iraq invasion diverted our attention away from Afghanistan allowing the Taliban to regroup.
It's true that Iraq did take the US attention away from Afghanistan, but the US was not the only country involved there. The other countries that had soldiers there were managing quite well.
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  #52  
Old 12-19-2012
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Default Racist terms

Ila, as moderator, has asked me to retract my use of the term "camel jockey" in a post and I do so. My intention was not to offend anybody, I was referring to the past plight of Arabs. I regret the use of the term and apologise to forum members and anybody else who saw it. Camel driver is what I should have used.
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Old 12-19-2012
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Default Israel

The next few years are going to be quite exciting in the middle east. Israel's isolation and continuing intransigence regarding settlements is causing divergent Palestinian groups to consolidate and prepare to confront Israel. I am sure Iran will be glad to provide them with increasingly more sophisticated and accurate missiles. Israel seems to be on a suicidal path.
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  #54  
Old 12-20-2012
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ASSIUT, Egypt - A campaign of intimidation by Islamists left most Christians in this southern Egyptian province too afraid to participate in last week's referendum on an Islamist-drafted constitution they deeply oppose, residents say.
This does not bode well for the Arab Spring.
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  #55  
Old 12-24-2012
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Will the Arab Spring result in secular states being established thruout the middle east? Let us hope so especially for the Christians living in predominately Muslim countries. The Islamists are determined to take over and impose sharia law. This could result in whats happening in Nigeria where Christian churches are being destroyed and Christians being massacred. These crazed Islamists are even destroying ancient Muslim mausoleums in Timbuktu, a world heritage site. All this in the name of their God, Mohammed.
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  #56  
Old 12-24-2012
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...All this in the name of their God, Mohammed.
No, it's Allah.
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  #57  
Old 12-24-2012
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No, it's Allah.
You are right but Mohammed "created" a god named Allah based on Jehovah.
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  #58  
Old 12-24-2012
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You are right but Mohammed "created" a god named Allah based on Jehovah.
Let me refer you to the quote below.

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You are only partly right. Muslims, Christians, and Jews all believe in the same deity, they just use different names...
Muhammed did not create a god. Muhammed was the prophet.
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Old 12-25-2012
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You are right but Mohammed "created" a god named Allah based on Jehovah.
Jehovah and Allah: same god, different names. More important, randolph, is whether acknowledge that the god of each and every religion is "created" -- or do you reserve that designation only for certain religions with which you (presumably) disagree or that are not part of your own personal cultural heritage and upbringing?
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  #60  
Old 12-25-2012
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Jehovah and Allah: same god, different names. More important, randolph, is whether acknowledge that the god of each and every religion is "created" -- or do you reserve that designation only for certain religions with which you (presumably) disagree or that are not part of your own personal cultural heritage and upbringing?
It seems that most religions have been "created" by a profit or profits. These are unique individuals that claim to be capable of communicating with God. Thus, they are the messengers of God, preaching what they claim to be the true word of God. It seems strange to me that God would do this. Why would he/she select numerous individuals to communicate his message when his "message" varies dramatically with each profit? I would suggest that profits are very clever con men that use the concept of God to satisfy their egocentric delusions that they are something special. They also use this delusion to get control of a congregation of worshipers. Humans are easily intimidated by the idea that a powerful being is looking over them. It becomes easy for the profit and his disciples to get people to do things that they would never do otherwise (crusades, evangelize, kill dissidents, etc).
Needless to say, I am not into religiosity. I see life as a miracle and if anybody is a profit it is Charles Darwin.
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  #61  
Old 12-25-2012
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It seems that most religions have been "created" by a profit or profits. These are unique individuals that claim to be capable of communicating with God. Thus, they are the messengers of God, preaching what they claim to be the true word of God. It seems strange to me that God would do this. Why would he/she select numerous individuals to communicate his message when his "message" varies dramatically with each profit? I would suggest that profits are very clever con men that use the concept of God to satisfy their egocentric delusions that they are something special. They also use this delusion to get control of a congregation of worshipers. Humans are easily intimidated by the idea that a powerful being is looking over them. It becomes easy for the profit and his disciples to get people to do things that they would never do otherwise (crusades, evangelize, kill dissidents, etc).
Needless to say, I am not into religiosity. I see life as a miracle and if anybody is a profit it is Charles Darwin.
Prophet-- sorry I am a lousy speller.
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  #62  
Old 12-25-2012
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Originally Posted by randolph View Post
It seems that most religions have been "created" by a profit or profits. These are unique individuals that claim to be capable of communicating with God. Thus, they are the messengers of God, preaching what they claim to be the true word of God. It seems strange to me that God would do this. Why would he/she select numerous individuals to communicate his message when his "message" varies dramatically with each profit? I would suggest that profits are very clever con men that use the concept of God to satisfy their egocentric delusions that they are something special. They also use this delusion to get control of a congregation of worshipers. Humans are easily intimidated by the idea that a powerful being is looking over them. It becomes easy for the profit and his disciples to get people to do things that they would never do otherwise (crusades, evangelize, kill dissidents, etc).
Needless to say, I am not into religiosity. I see life as a miracle and if anybody is a profit it is Charles Darwin.
Darwin wouldn't like to be called a prophet I bet. Once he lost his little girl, coupled with his study of evolution by natural selection, he lost whatever taste he might have had for religion as a divinely inspired instrument.
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  #63  
Old 12-25-2012
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Originally Posted by randolph View Post
It seems that most religions have been "created" by a profit or profits. These are unique individuals that claim to be capable of communicating with God. Thus, they are the messengers of God, preaching what they claim to be the true word of God. It seems strange to me that God would do this. Why would he/she select numerous individuals to communicate his message when his "message" varies dramatically with each profit? I would suggest that profits are very clever con men that use the concept of God to satisfy their egocentric delusions that they are something special. They also use this delusion to get control of a congregation of worshipers. Humans are easily intimidated by the idea that a powerful being is looking over them. It becomes easy for the profit and his disciples to get people to do things that they would never do otherwise (crusades, evangelize, kill dissidents, etc).
Needless to say, I am not into religiosity. I see life as a miracle and if anybody is a profit it is Charles Darwin.
Wow, did you ever miss the point of my post!
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  #64  
Old 12-26-2012
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Originally Posted by smc View Post
Jehovah and Allah: same god, different names. More important, randolph, is whether acknowledge that the god of each and every religion is "created" -- or do you reserve that designation only for certain religions with which you (presumably) disagree or that are not part of your own personal cultural heritage and upbringing?

Apparently, you are posing the question whether I believe all God based religions are created be prophets or I have a bias against some religions and believe they are created by prophets. Personally, I believe all Gods, pagan or Christian or any other organized religion are created by man (prophets). There is not one shred of physical evidence in the real world for Gods, humans just seem to enjoy having them around. Buddha got tired of all this and created a religious system without a "God".

Darwin, on the other hand spent years carefully documenting evidence in the real world for the concept of evolution. I do believe, however, there is still alot of mystery regarding life. there is more to it than just molecules somehow managing to replicate. The ability of subatomic particles to communicate instantly, at a distance, offers a clue. Also, some animals seem to have amazing abilities to communicate (telepathic?).

Anyway, this is drifting away from the Arab Spring discussion.
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  #65  
Old 12-26-2012
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You are right but Mohammed "created" a god named Allah based on Jehovah.
Quote:
Originally Posted by smc View Post
Jehovah and Allah: same god, different names. More important, randolph, is whether acknowledge that the god of each and every religion is "created" -- or do you reserve that designation only for certain religions with which you (presumably) disagree or that are not part of your own personal cultural heritage and upbringing?
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Apparently, you are posing the question whether I believe all God based religions are created be prophets or I have a bias against some religions and believe they are created by prophets. Personally, I believe all Gods, pagan or Christian or any other organized religion are created by man (prophets). There is not one shred of physical evidence in the real world for Gods, humans just seem to enjoy having them around. Buddha got tired of all this and created a religious system without a "God".

Darwin, on the other hand spent years carefully documenting evidence in the real world for the concept of evolution. I do believe, however, there is still alot of mystery regarding life. there is more to it than just molecules somehow managing to replicate. The ability of subatomic particles to communicate instantly, at a distance, offers a clue. Also, some animals seem to have amazing abilities to communicate (telepathic?).

Anyway, this is drifting away from the Arab Spring discussion.
Just to clarify, my point was to question why you would describe Islam as a religion for which a god was "created," while not similarly calling Judaism or Christianity or any other religion one for which a god was "created." The way in which you wrote that originally (see above) could be construed as a negative statement about Islam exclusively. I am glad to see that you have clarified your view and now state that all gods are creations of the human imagination.

As for your statement that the reason humans create gods is because "humans just seem to enjoy having them around": well, I think this speaks to a lack of perspective and historical understanding. Gods were created by humans to explain phenomena that science had not yet explained. The endurance of these creations (gods) is part of a socio-political system in which some people saw how much they could manipulate other humans via this god belief. That is the basis for organized religion.
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  #66  
Old 12-26-2012
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Just to clarify, my point was to question why you would describe Islam as a religion for which a god was "created," while not similarly calling Judaism or Christianity or any other religion one for which a god was "created." The way in which you wrote that originally (see above) could be construed as a negative statement about Islam exclusively. I am glad to see that you have clarified your view and now state that all gods are creations of the human imagination.

As for your statement that the reason humans create gods is because "humans just seem to enjoy having them around": well, I think this speaks to a lack of perspective and historical understanding. Gods were created by humans to explain phenomena that science had not yet explained. The endurance of these creations (gods) is part of a socio-political system in which some people saw how much they could manipulate other humans via this god belief. That is the basis for organized religion.
"humans just seem to enjoy having them around": I made that comment in jest, but actually, in the absence of science, rational thought is difficult. Consequently, humans construct a system of explanations based on imaginations fostered by witch doctors, prophets and gurus. I think people who are sincerely religious have a feeling of well being and that there is a God that cares about them and their behavior. These people just ignore scientific rationality when it comes to what they want to believe.
God bless America.--- We are always right --- Right?.
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Old 12-26-2012
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"humans just seem to enjoy having them around": I made that comment in jest, but actually, in the absence of science, rational thought is difficult. Consequently, humans construct a system of explanations based on imaginations fostered by witch doctors, prophets and gurus. I think people who are sincerely religious have a feeling of well being and that there is a God that cares about them and their behavior. These people just ignore scientific rationality when it comes to what they want to believe.
God bless America.--- We are always right --- Right?.
There is a significant, and highly important difference, between an individual's belief in god and the existence of organized religions to promote that belief. The former is irrational; the latter is manipulatively rational.
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Old 12-26-2012
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...Personally, I believe all Gods, pagan or Christian or any other organized religion are created by man (prophets). There is not one shred of physical evidence in the real world for Gods, humans just seem to enjoy having them around...
It's called Faith, for a reason.
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Old 12-26-2012
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There is a significant, and highly important difference, between an individual's belief in god and the existence of organized religions to promote that belief. The former is irrational; the latter is manipulatively rational.
So are you saying an individuals irrational belief somehow becomes rational in a religious context?
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Old 12-26-2012
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It's called Faith, for a reason.
For a reason? Can you elaborate?
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Old 12-27-2012
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So are you saying an individuals irrational belief somehow becomes rational in a religious context?
The individual's belief in god is irrational. Those who create religions do so to manipulate that irrational belief for a rational purpose (e.g., to accrue wealth and power, to conquer, to influence policy, etc.).
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Old 12-27-2012
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The individual's belief in god is irrational. Those who create religions do so to manipulate that irrational belief for a rational purpose (e.g., to accrue wealth and power, to conquer, to influence policy, etc.).
It is interesting to speculate that if Constantine had not made Christianity the state religion,paganism would have continued, Christianity would have remained an obscure sect and Islam would not have happened.
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Old 12-27-2012
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It is interesting to speculate that if Constantine had not made Christianity the state religion,paganism would have continued, Christianity would have remained an obscure sect and Islam would not have happened.
Islam is not an offshoot or a result of Christianity.

The quote below, about Muhammed, from this website gives the beginning of Islam.

Quote:
In his forties, he began to retire to meditate in a cave on Mount Hira, just outside Mecca, where the first of the great events of Islam took place. One day, as he was sitting in the cave, he heard a voice, later identified as that of the Angel Gabriel, which ordered him to:
“Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood.” (Quran 96:1-2)
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Old 12-27-2012
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Default Continuity of Religious Thought

But Paganism was not eliminated, although that's another story. What may be at the back of Randolph's mind is the shared heritage of the respective written traditions of Judaism and Christianity.

Whether or not early Islam would have flourished less successfully in co-existence with multi-faith Pagan religions against its militant evangelism of ' Christianised ' lands over the two centuries from its founding is open to debate and considerable speculation.

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Old 12-27-2012
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Islam is not an offshoot or a result of Christianity.

The quote below, about Muhammed, from this website gives the beginning of Islam.
Islam is an Abrahamic religion which is closely associated with Judaism and Christianity. All three are monotheistic and share many features. Mohammed's design of Islam was based on the early Judaism and Christian faiths along with concepts appropriate to the Arabic community. Of course Mohammed would have come up with many features that would distinguish Islam from other religions.
From Wikipedia --
Quote:
Abraham was appointed by God to eliminate all idolatry at the time, and to convey the pure message of Islam to the people. God granted Abraham wisdom in his childhood and Abraham remained in a high spiritual position till the day of his death.
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Old 12-28-2012
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Quote:
Abraham was appointed by God to eliminate all idolatry at the time, and to convey the pure message of Islam to the people. God granted Abraham wisdom in his childhood and Abraham remained in a high spiritual position till the day of his death.
This quote from Wikipedia doesn't make sense even in a religious context. Abraham existed 2,000 years BC while Mohammed got his word from God around 600 AD. Oh well, I guess religious history should be taken with a grain of salt.
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Old 12-28-2012
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Quote:


This quote from Wikipedia doesn't make sense even in a religious context. Abraham existed 2,000 years BC while Mohammed got his word from God around 600 AD. Oh well, I guess religious history should be taken with a grain of salt.
You should read the definition of Islam:

Quote:
Islam is a verbal noun originating from the triliteral root s-l-m which forms a large class of words mostly relating to concepts of wholeness, safeness and peace.[18] In a religious context it means "voluntary submission to God".
(quoted from the same source as my previous post)
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Old 12-28-2012
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Randolph, you're showing your own ignorance of Judeo-Christian history here. Muslims consider Abraham to be their father, and Mohammed their prophet. It goes back to the promise that God made to Abraham that he would have a child, through which his heirs would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. At the time, Abraham was roughly 90 - 100 years old, and his wife was equally as old. Not trusting God to bring child through his wife Sarah, Abraham took their maidservant and conceived Ishmael through her. His wife Sarah later ended up conceiving and giving birth to Isaac. Jews trace their lineage through Isaac to Abraham. Muslims trace their heritage through Ishmael to Abraham.
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Old 12-28-2012
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You should read the definition of Islam:

(quoted from the same source as my previous post)
Quote:
In his forties, he began to retire to meditate in a cave on Mount Hira, just outside Mecca, where the first of the great events of Islam took place. One day, as he was sitting in the cave, he heard a voice, later identified as that of the Angel Gabriel, which ordered him to:
?Recite: In the name of thy Lord who created, Created man from a clot of blood.? (Quran 96:1-2)
Three times Muhammad pleaded his inability to do so, but each time the command was repeated. Finally, Muhammad recited the words of what are now the first five verses of the 96th chapter of the Quran - words which proclaim God to be the Creator of man and the Source of all knowledge.
This quote is from the source you mentioned with my emphasis.
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Old 12-28-2012
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This quote is from the source you mentioned with my emphasis.
Then read the definition of what Islam is and the quote will make sense.
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Old 12-28-2012
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You should read the definition of Islam:

(quoted from the same source as my previous post)
From "Islamic beginnings"
Quote:
"Islam" is an Arabic word that means "acceptance," "surrender," "submission," or "commitment," and is closely related to the Arabic word for peace (salaam; in Hebrew, shalom). Adherents of Islam are called Muslims, literally, those who make peace. Muslims are those who surrender to the will of God (Allah, in Arabic) in every aspect of their lives and enjoy the resulting peace with God and each other. The prophet Muhammad gave the name Islam to the religious movement he founded.
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Old 12-28-2012
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Randolph, you're showing your own ignorance of Judeo-Christian history here. Muslims consider Abraham to be their father, and Mohammed their prophet. It goes back to the promise that God made to Abraham that he would have a child, through which his heirs would be as numerous as the stars in the sky. At the time, Abraham was roughly 90 - 100 years old, and his wife was equally as old. Not trusting God to bring child through his wife Sarah, Abraham took their maidservant and conceived Ishmael through her. His wife Sarah later ended up conceiving and giving birth to Isaac. Jews trace their lineage through Isaac to Abraham. Muslims trace their heritage through Ishmael to Abraham.
And what a fucked up world we have had ever since Abraham couldn't keep it in his pants.
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Old 12-28-2012
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And what a fucked up world we have had ever since Abraham couldn't keep it in his pants.
Yep, people who believe in one God sure like to make war on their neighbors, the poor Pagans didn't have a chance.
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Old 12-28-2012
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And what a fucked up world we have had ever since Abraham couldn't keep it in his pants.
Don't blame Abraham. Blame organized religion.
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Old 12-28-2012
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Default The exclusiveness of some religions

Wherever any religious group claims exclusivity, follows that its followers reject and condemn out of hand anybody who is not of their religious persuasion or approved by them. The most extreme form results in religious-cleansing. This may be prompted as much by political imperatives as religious ones. A typical example is the fate of the Cathars, but the Middle East promises unfortunately to provide more.

Exclusivity is divisive and socially polarising, and per se must be the enemy of any democratic system.

I would like to get back to a renewed discussion of the ' Arab Spring ' and its significance to the balance of power in the Middle East. Any offers ?

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Wherever any religious group claims exclusivity, follows that its followers reject and condemn out of hand anybody who is not of their religious persuasion or approved by them. The most extreme form results in religious-cleansing. This may be prompted as much by political imperatives as religious ones. A typical example is the fate of the Cathars, but the Middle East promises unfortunately to provide more.

Exclusivity is divisive and socially polarising, and per se must be the enemy of any democratic system.

I would like to get back to a renewed discussion of the ' Arab Spring ' and its significance to the balance of power in the Middle East. Any offers ?

Yes, I agree, perhaps we should have a religious thread.

The Arab Spring is the momentous event in recent history. The politicizing of religion in both the east and west is going to have a major bearing on whether the middle eastern countries can achieve a truly democratic state.
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My thoughts

When Bush was getting ready to invade Iraq, an adviser was talking to him about Sunnis and Shias. Supposedly Bush said “I thought they were all Muslims”.

The schism within the Muslim religion between the Sunni and the Shia is the source of much of the discord in the Middle East. The origin of this split occurred after the death of Mohammed. Who was to carry on his work? One group wanted Mohammed’s family members to continue his legacy, they became the Shia. The other side believed the leaders of the Muslim movement at the time of Mohammed’s death should continue his legacy. This split was originally political but over time it also became religious.

In the absence of Western influence, particularly the US, these two Muslim groups within Islam would likely be fighting each other anyway. A lot of it has to do with political power. In Iraq before our invasion, the Sunni’s ruled Iraq even though they were a minority. We imposed a Shia government and the Sunni regularly bomb Shia sites.

The most financially powerful Middle Eastern country, Saudi Arabia, is Sunni and enforces Sharia law and no other religions are legal. Iran also has Sharia law but it’s not as extreme as in Saudi Arabia. With the exception of Iran, the Sunni’s have more economic and political power in the Middle East. Historically, the two sides of Islam have been kept from each other’s throats by a secular strongman, ie, Saddam (Iraq), Kaddafi (Libya), Mubarak (Egypt), Assad (Syria), etc.

With the demise of the autocratic rulers, a power vacuum is created and all the various politically orientated groups rush in to gain power. Of course, we would like a secular democratic government that respects human rights, be established in these countries. In Libya there is some optimism in this respect. In the other Arab Spring countries, democracy and human rights may be a long way off. The emergence of a powerful military backed leader that imposes a secular lid on religious infighting is a likely alternative. So then, we are back where we started.
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Old 01-06-2013
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Although many of us would like to see the US get out of foreign countries and mind our own business, many political scientists don't agree with this.

For example the Harvard Political scientist, Dr. Samuel P. Huntington asserts:
"A world without US primacy will be a world with more violence and disorder and less democracy and economic growth that a world where the United States continues to have more influence than any other country in shaping global affairs. The sustained international primacy of the United Stated is central to the welfare and security of Americans and to the future of freedom, democracy and open economies and international order in the world."

So, in a sense, our actions around the world are somewhat similar to the local strongman. We, with our enormous military power and financial influence help maintain some degree of stability in the world.
With the emergence of radical Islam, our hegemony in the Middle East is threatened. Again political scientists, including Zbigniew Brzezinski believe if we lose influence in the Middle East our influence thruout Eurasia would diminish leaving this critical area open to other aggressive powers such as Iran and China.
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Old 01-10-2013
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Default Egypt

Before Morsi made his power grab numerous companies were interested in investing in Egypt and large loans were being prepared to help make Egypt's transition to a democratic country. Well, Morsi blew it. Much of the potential investment and loans are now on hold. Egypt has a bloated bureaucracy, high unemployment and it is losing the ability to export oil. If Egypt decends into chaos and Islamist take over, it's likely that the Middle East will come unglued (my opinion) and Israel will be in the middle of a firestorm.
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Old 01-11-2013
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Default The spread of Extremism

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It did no such thing. Iran already had power and influence throughout the Middle East What it did do is give Iran an opening in Iraq to try to increase their influence there. Al Qaida and the Taliban did not gain any influence as a result of the US invasion of Iraq. Both of the those groups were well established before the invasion of Iraq.
Any observations from you regarding the development of Al Quaida training areas in both the Yemen and Somalia ? Any correlation to Iraqi destabilisation ?

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Default Unforseen consequences

The Libya revolution seems like a good idea. Get rid of Quaddifi and establish a Westward leaning democracy. Now Islamists, well equipped with sophisticated arms gathered up in Libya are taking over the country Mali. France has decided to put a stop to this and is bombing Islamists strongholds and putting troops on the ground. The troops have been surprised by how well trained and well equiped the Islamists are. The fall of dictators that have been supported by the West and Russia and loaded up with advanced weapons has unforeseen consequences as we are seeing in North Africa. I suspect the same thing will happen with the fall of Syria.
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Any observations from you regarding the development of Al Quaida training areas in both the Yemen and Somalia ? Any correlation to Iraqi destabilisation ?

Yemen has been an unstable country for decades. No one has ever been able to control the whole country. Al Qaeda was able to set up there because the central government can't control the whole country.

Somalia hasn't had a national government for more than twenty years because of the civil war. It is due to this civil war that Al Qaeda was able to move in there, but I don't think there influence is as great as it was even five years ago.

Some of the problems in Iraq are due to Al Qaeda, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that Iran is alos a destabilizing force there. Iraq has had internal tensions for a long time, but Hussein was able to keep his country stable although the tension was always just below the surface.
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Old 07-28-2013
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Stumbling in to this discussion searching for something totally different,
and mostly not so much into this kind of discussions (my english too poor?)
I did read the very well elaborated contributions of SMC.
and it was a flow of recognition.
In the early sixties I was alraedy confused about the notion of the horrors of Hitler and the unbelievebable atrocities of the Israeli occupation (demolitions, murder, etc.) But many called any doubt in that matter as anti semitism. Never got this straight. When I visited a goed friend in 2000 in Israel he and his wife put a stone on the grave of Ben Gurion. I did so too, as an act of courtesy to my friends wife, but with mixed feelings.
I knew it is wrong what Israel does. But all the evidence SMC put together is a eloquent and scholastical piece of historical prove of theis.

Thank You for this.
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