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  #1  
Old 06-05-2010
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Default Immigration law

There's been a recent court ruling that upholds the rights of states to punish businesses for hiring illegal immigrants. In Arizona, if a business knowingly hires illegals, the first time there's a 10 day penalty against them, and the next time the business loses their license. This law was signed by Napolitano and upheld by the 9th Circuit (the most liberal of all the circuit courts).

Obama actually has a problem with this and wants the Supreme Court to overrule this decision. Why? Someone please explain this to me.

There's also the ongoing uproar over Arizona's new law, which is almost word for word the same as an already existing federal law. What is the problem? Why the uproar for enforcing laws that already exist?
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Old 06-05-2010
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Obama is trying to count on winning as many Mexican votes as he possibly can...That's why the uproar.

But do I agree? Absolutely not. I would have NO PROBLEM fining a business $10,000 per illegal worker that they are caught hiring. If we could make it impossible for illegals to find work here we'd go a long way towards stopping the illegal tide of immigrants.
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Old 06-05-2010
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Illegal Immigration has been a problem since before Reagan, and turning the Arizona Police into Gestapo Goons isn't the solution.
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Old 06-07-2010
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Obama is trying to count on winning as many Mexican votes as he possibly can...That's why the uproar.
I often hear that legal Mexican immigrants are p.o.'d that there are so many illegals here since they worked so hard doing it the right way to get here legally. The illegals can't vote so there's no reason to try and get their vote unless you're planning on amnesty to suddenly turn them all into citizens.

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But do I agree? Absolutely not. I would have NO PROBLEM fining a business $10,000 per illegal worker that they are caught hiring. If we could make it impossible for illegals to find work here we'd go a long way towards stopping the illegal tide of immigrants.
Exactly! Which is how the vast majority of the American public feels. So you're a politician. You see one group consisting of maybe 10s of millions (the pro-illegal alien crowd), and you another group consisting of 100s of millions (the anti-illegal alien crowd). Politicians consistently try and woo the 10s of millions crowd. I still don't get it.

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Illegal Immigration has been a problem since before Reagan, and turning the Arizona Police into Gestapo Goons isn't the solution.
There isn't a viable solution right now. Especially when everyone up to the president is giving illegal aliens every free pass they can. Faced with this Arizona has no other choice. And it also serves to tell the US government that they aren't doing their job. Because if they don't like what Arizona is doing then they should take the burden off Arizona. And what part of the Arizona law is turning police into Gestapo Goons?
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Old 06-07-2010
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I often hear that legal Mexican immigrants are p.o.'d that there are so many illegals here since they worked so hard doing it the right way to get here legally. The illegals can't vote so there's no reason to try and get their vote unless you're planning on amnesty to suddenly turn them all into citizens.
You forget that groups like ACORN have been wheeling illegals, bums etc. over to their local branches and fudging their names and numbers so that they can get them to vote for whoever best serves thier interests.

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Exactly! Which is how the vast majority of the American public feels. So you're a politician. You see one group consisting of maybe 10s of millions (the pro-illegal alien crowd), and you another group consisting of 100s of millions (the anti-illegal alien crowd). Politicians consistently try and woo the 10s of millions crowd. I still don't get it.
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There isn't a viable solution right now. Especially when everyone up to the president is giving illegal aliens every free pass they can. Faced with this Arizona has no other choice. And it also serves to tell the US government that they aren't doing their job. Because if they don't like what Arizona is doing then they should take the burden off Arizona. And what part of the Arizona law is turning police into Gestapo Goons?
It may not be a viable solution but it is a damn good deterrent and I for one support Jan Brewer for looking out for the residents of her state. This is the opposite of what you posted above. Now the focus is on the majority of the people who are seriously concerned about their well being and security rather than the usual tactic of catering and kissing ass to a minority of people.
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Old 06-07-2010
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Default 70%

I hear that 70% of Arizona supports their law.
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Old 06-07-2010
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Default Laws?

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I hear that 70% of Arizona supports their law.
The city council of my local community (Hemet) has voted to support Arizona.
In California is illegal to employ illegals yet the law is not enforced. Why? Agriculture is a major part of California's economy. Most of the field workers are illegals, many with fake documents. Many farming operations simply could not stay in business without the hardworking illegals. I know from personal experience that people who have grown up in our affluent society are incapable of doing farm work. Putting in nine hours a day six days a week is beyond them.
We need a work permit system that is viable and encourages workers to come here temporarily and leave their families back home. This would take the pressure off the schools, the hospitals and the infrastructure. Will it happen? I doubt it, this country is too fucked up with politics.
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Old 06-07-2010
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this country is too fucked up with politics.
Amen for that.
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Old 06-07-2010
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I am for a world without borders.

Go ahead, flame the crap out of me.

(I'm proud that this is my 3,000th post!)
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Old 06-07-2010
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I am for a world without borders.

Go ahead, flame the crap out of me.

(I'm proud that this is my 3,000th post!)
Congratulations. I wont flame you just post an exotic little tid bit.
Trannys without borders, sounds good to me.
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Old 06-08-2010
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Default borders

[QUOTE=smc;148377]I am for a world without borders.

Go ahead, flame the crap out of me.

(I'm proud that this is my 3,000th post!)[/QUO

I suppose no one in Boston has a home with door locks?
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Old 06-08-2010
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I suppose no one in Boston has a home with door locks?
I never said anything about individual homes. My point is a serious one. If someone wants to disagree with the point, that's fine, but mocking my point should not be okay.

Of course, I realize that my position is far from the mainstream, even for those who disagree with the Arizona law. I will explain why I believe a world without borders is the best alternative.

Borders exist primarily for economic purposes. They have always been made by the rich and powerful, who traditionally have created borders to establish areas of control for markets and taxation as a means of avoiding competition or at least giving themselves an arena over which they have some means of control other than the "anarchy" of simple supply and demand. Corporations move across borders at will, whether physically or virtually.The borders, though, are primarily used to control buying and selling by us, regular people, and to manipulate the pool of workers.

The U.S. economy depends on a large pool of immigrant workers, especially to fill the lowest-paid jobs. One way to keep the wages low for immigrant workers is to marginalize them to the greatest degree possible. If you create borders and harsh conditions for crossing those borders -- terror, difficulty, susceptibility to arrest and deportation -- these workers are highly unlikely to stand up for themselves against the very exploitation that the rest of us would never accept. Then the politicians try to scapegoat them: they are the ones taking our jobs and costing us so much that we can't afford good social services, when in fact our jobs are being taken to low-paying countries by corporations, without government interference (because for them, the borders essentially don't exist) and the money for social services are being spent, well, in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's notable that an immigrant crossing into the United States "illegally" in the hope of making a better life -- and that is the very reason most people do so -- will be detained by the authorities if caught and, before deportation, be offered a path to citizenship by joining the Armed Forces and going to Iraq or Afghanistan. Do you need any more indication of whose interests borders serve than that, which happens each and every day?
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Old 06-08-2010
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I am for a world without borders.

Go ahead, flame the crap out of me.

(I'm proud that this is my 3,000th post!)
I suppose no one in Boston has a home with door locks?
Actually, according to figures, areas with large numbers of illegal immigrants have lower crime rates. Go figure.
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Old 06-08-2010
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Actually, according to figures, areas with large numbers of illegal immigrants have lower crime rates. Go figure.
Interesting. Have you got a source for this information or a link to the source?

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Old 06-08-2010
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Interesting. Have you got a source for this information or a link to the source?
The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
Governments, almost without exception, will invariably deny that there is a problem, but it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity.

It would be interesting to have figures to show if rises in levels of immigration across Western Europe, and North America have occurred in the past ten years, and if so, what the percentages are. Prison figures might also show a correspondence, if one exists.

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Old 06-08-2010
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Interesting. Have you got a source for this information or a link to the source?
An article in pe.com (Riverside Ca.) by Ruben Navarrette (member of Washington Post Writers Group) pointed out that cities with large populations of illegal immigrants have lower crime rates. This is probably the result of illegals keeping a low profile to avoid getting arrested and deported. There are other references to the studies, done in the 1990s, on the internet.
Here in California, things are getting much tougher for illegals. One I know who has been here for ten years, working hard, getting married to a US citizen and having two children is getting deported. Another who has a lawn care business is getting deported.
People come to this country because there are jobs here. We need some kind of a work permit system that lets them do the work but keeps their families back home. This would help the schools and the health care services. Its a sad situation, these are people just trying to make a living. Thanks to NAFTA destroying the small farmer economy of Mexico these people had to find work somewhere.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Originally Posted by Mel Asher View Post
The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
Governments, almost without exception, will invariably deny that there is a problem, but it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity.

It would be interesting to have figures to show if rises in levels of immigration across Western Europe, and North America have occurred in the past ten years, and if so, what the percentages are. Prison figures might also show a correspondence, if one exists.
The general perception of who exactly? Some out-of-touch bloke in the public bar reading a copy of the daily express? Don't tar everybody in this country with your clueless, racist views.

Sorry I had to stop lurking and finally post something but lazy crap like this makes my blood boil.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Originally Posted by Mel Asher View Post
The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
Governments, almost without exception, will invariably deny that there is a problem, but it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity.

It would be interesting to have figures to show if rises in levels of immigration across Western Europe, and North America have occurred in the past ten years, and if so, what the percentages are. Prison figures might also show a correspondence, if one exists.
This is a racist view, pure and simple, painting with a broad brush immigrants as generally linked to crime syndicates. Racism, racism, racism.
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Old 06-09-2010
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. . . Borders exist primarily for economic purposes. They have always been made by the rich and powerful, who traditionally have created borders to establish areas of control for markets and taxation as a means of avoiding competition or at least giving themselves an arena over which they have some means of control other than the "anarchy" of simple supply and demand. Corporations move across borders at will, whether physically or virtually.The borders, though, are primarily used to control buying and selling by us, regular people, and to manipulate the pool of workers.
That's actually a good point. And people scoff at my desire to see the "New World Order" come to fruition . . .

In all seriousness, when people speak of a global economy, it really means something. Corporations ignore borders, and rightly so. Nationalism and patriotism are a hold-over from the past, which should blur more and more as time goes by. The economic unification of Europe seems to be working out pretty well, and I believe is just another step in the on-going unification of the world as a whole. Go back through history and you'll see movement towards that goal for as long as people have been writing.

After all, in the end, it's really about allocation of resources. Cooperative effort benefits the species, and, in fact, it seems that our brains are hard-wired for precisely that goal. Once the population reaches a certain threshold, we will be FORCED to consolidate under one controlling mechanism (whatever that might be) to support and sustain said population. I think the Agricultural Revolution is a good example of this principle in action, causing the creation of city-states and jump-starting the centralization of populations.

Quote:
The U.S. economy depends on a large pool of immigrant workers, especially to fill the lowest-paid jobs. One way to keep the wages low for immigrant workers is to marginalize them to the greatest degree possible. If you create borders and harsh conditions for crossing those borders -- terror, difficulty, susceptibility to arrest and deportation -- these workers are highly unlikely to stand up for themselves against the very exploitation that the rest of us would never accept. Then the politicians try to scapegoat them: they are the ones taking our jobs and costing us so much that we can't afford good social services, when in fact our jobs are being taken to low-paying countries by corporations, without government interference (because for them, the borders essentially don't exist) and the money for social services are being spent, well, in places like Iraq and Afghanistan.

It's notable that an immigrant crossing into the United States "illegally" in the hope of making a better life -- and that is the very reason most people do so -- will be detained by the authorities if caught and, before deportation, be offered a path to citizenship by joining the Armed Forces and going to Iraq or Afghanistan. Do you need any more indication of whose interests borders serve than that, which happens each and every day?
I served in the military myself, and live in Arizona. While it's my opinion that the average Joe in this country is both apathetic and ignorant (sorry, but we're dumber as a whole than we have been since before WWII), I myself am somewhat conflicted. I'm the progeny of immigrants, after all, a first-generation American, so I tend to have a very hard-nosed attitude towards people who bypass the system.

Having said that, to ignore the vast numbers of illegals is simply silly. White Elephant in the living room anyone? Building a wall is also silly, and historically speaking, has never worked. Look to the Great Wall for an example. Chest-beating rhetoric and brandished weapons only compound the problem, without addressing the underlying issue.

I don't see any way to REALLY solve the problem without addressing the economic state of our neighbors. Why do people come to this country, after all? If our southern neighbors had economic and social parity it wouldn't be an issue at all, as there would be no incentive to relocate.

Until the Mexican government is stable, including laws which protect their citizenry and workforce, and economically healthy, I see no real solution to illegal immigration.

As for the recent law itself? If I understand it correctly, it's just the Federal law coupled with the ADDITION of Miranda rights (there must be probable cause to justify requesting ID, much like the seatbelt law, and I don't think the feds need to worry about that). I don't have a problem with this at all.

Just my two cents.
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Old 06-09-2010
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The uproar is not targeted at the whole thing, but this part:

Officers have to interrogate everybody who looks like an illegal immigrant. Or anyone could sue him or her of not doing their job.

In short, this is a new version of "pull off every car with American-American in it, cus they all look suspicious".

Some police stations are against it because it puts them into a lose-lose situation. If you interrogate someone who looks "illegal", the victim can sue the police for "racial profiling". Now if the officer don't use racial profile, they will be sued for not doing their job.

It's not like some of the right-wing media described, "they wanna open the border". Nobody said let the illegals get in, but this part of the law put police in a really bad position.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Originally Posted by Mel Asher View Post
The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
Governments, almost without exception, will invariably deny that there is a problem, but it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity.

It would be interesting to have figures to show if rises in levels of immigration across Western Europe, and North America have occurred in the past ten years, and if so, what the percentages are. Prison figures might also show a correspondence, if one exists.
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This is a racist view, pure and simple, painting with a broad brush immigrants as generally linked to crime syndicates. Racism, racism, racism.
I don't find this to be racist at all. Racism implies a superiority of ability due to racial factors. He said nothing of the sort. He simply noted that there is a correlation between the demographics of a certain region and a higher incidence of crime.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Lest we forget, this whole thing was enacted because the drug cartels were killing Americans on American soil so that they could move unimpeded through the area. I believe the figure was something like 10,000- 30,000 people yearly killed by cartel members. Juarez is another good example. The cartels will routinely kidnap Mexicans and Americans, bring them into Mexico and absolutely torture and/or dismember the victims. I've seen videos that they release of the torturing of their victims and one of them showed a guy being fed into a meat grinder feet first. This is a regular occurence in Juarez and Tijuana and most of the cities in Mexico.

http://www.aolnews.com/world/article...ancun/19506105

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...oviolence.html

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/world/2...nt_9908870.htm

http://www.39online.com/news/local/k...,2298734.story

http://reproductiverights.org/es/node/283

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/mex...n_victims.html

This is a daily occurence, not sporadic outbreaks of violence. They started coming over here, kidnappping or killing American citizens and think there will be no backlash or retaliation? In the words of Judas Priest, "You've got another thing comin'."

You can cry racism, but the fact of the matter is that Mexicans specifically are the ones perpetrating these heinous crimes and will continue to do so unless someone puts a boot in their ass.
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  #23  
Old 06-09-2010
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Originally Posted by TheAngryPostman View Post
I don't find this to be racist at all. Racism implies a superiority of ability due to racial factors. He said nothing of the sort. He simply noted that there is a correlation between the demographics of a certain region and a higher incidence of crime.
Racism is about more than a "superiority of ability." It is belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce some inherent superiority or inferiority of particular races. Hence, drawing a link between race and crime so generally is a form of racism.

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Lest we forget, this whole thing was enacted because the drug cartels were killing Americans on American soil so that they could move unimpeded through the area. ...

You can cry racism, but the fact of the matter is that Mexicans specifically are the ones perpetrating these heinous crimes and will continue to do so unless someone puts a boot in their ass.
You are correct that it is Mexicans that are perpetrating the crimes to which you refer. Let me use an analogy to make my point, though, and forgive me for its imperfection. I think the point will still come across. If the government decided that Wall Street bankers such as Lloyd Bankfein had committed heinous crimes by destroying the economy and that as a group the perpetrators of such crimes need to be rounded up so that they cannot do so anymore, would you support New York City giving police the right to stop anyone who looks Jewish and is wearing a very expensive suit? Of course not. The problem with the law in Arizona is two-fold. The first is that an immigration law is not the way to deal with this criminal behavior by drug cartels. The second is that if your explanation is the logic behind the law, then it is based on the concept of collective guilt of all "Mexicans."

I do not believe that anyone seriously believes this law is a way to stop the drug cartels. I do believe that the proponents of the law do believe that all Mexicans (including Mexican-Americans) are guilty of something: not being white, and becoming a larger part of the population than whites. People are terrified that "their America" is disappearing, and the Arizona law is just one of their reactionary responses.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Originally Posted by smc View Post
Racism is about more than a "superiority of ability." It is belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce some inherent superiority or inferiority of particular races. Hence, drawing a link between race and crime so generally is a form of racism.
No. It is simply stating that there is a higher propensity for crime from certain immigrant groups and more often than not, these groups fail to assimilate into the local culture. Is it any wonder that there are less occurences of violence from legal immigrants than illegals and why legal immigrants are pissed at illegals for ruining things for them? Legal immigrants(Like me) adapt to the local customs and cultures and abide by the laws of the land and cultural norms. Those who don't, tend to bring their problems with them and just perpetuate the cycle. Is it racist? No. It is just a fact of the disparity between legal and illegal immigrants.


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You are correct that it is Mexicans that are perpetrating the crimes to which you refer. Let me use an analogy to make my point, though, and forgive me for its imperfection. I think the point will still come across. If the government decided that Wall Street bankers such as Lloyd Bankfein had committed heinous crimes by destroying the economy and that as a group the perpetrators of such crimes need to be rounded up so that they cannot do so anymore, would you support New York City giving police the right to stop anyone who looks Jewish and is wearing a very expensive suit? Of course not. The problem with the law in Arizona is two-fold. The first is that an immigration law is not the way to deal with this criminal behavior by drug cartels. The second is that if your explanation is the logic behind the law, then it is based on the concept of collective guilt of all "Mexicans."
This law is the exact thing that will help Arizonans. It simply reasserts and reinforces the current laws on illegal immigration in the book. The local PD are now acting as a suppliment to the Border Patrol and Customs. The more people you have patrolling an area and the tougher the enforcement, the less the likelyhood of occurence. The bill does NOT give the police the right to stop anyone that "looks" like they might by an illegal alien.

I don't know if you've read the bill, but it clearly states that a person has to have legal contact with a police officer first. If you get pulled over for rolling a stop sign, stopped for loitering or get arrested, they are going to check your ID and verify whether or not you are here legally. What you are repeating is the bullshit spouted by idiots. Also, if you have a *valid* driver's license you are assumed to be here legally. So let me see here, if you get a traffic stop, the cops are now going to call in your driver's license to see if you have warrants, are wanted or are in the country illegally?

There is no "collective guilt" in my reasoning. The cartels come over here and kill US citizens. These people are in fear for their life and trying to paint this as xenophobia is ludicrous. People are tired of the crap and are standing against the crimes perpetrated by these bastards and guess what? It is working!http://www.azcentral.com/community/p...w-schools.html

You think that our immigration policy is bad, you should see Mexicos stance on illegal immigration. http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/lillpop022707.htm And from what I have heard from El Salvadorian and Guatemalan immigrants, their immigration officials are not as nice as ours and more often than not either beat or shoot illegal immigrants coming in through Mexico.

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I do not believe that anyone seriously believes this law is a way to stop the drug cartels. I do believe that the proponents of the law do believe that all Mexicans (including Mexican-Americans) are guilty of something: not being white, and becoming a larger part of the population than whites. People are terrified that "their America" is disappearing, and the Arizona law is just one of their reactionary responses.
Ahhhhh, the old "white guilt" defense. No cigar this time buddy. Jan Brewer sent letters to Lord Zero stating her concerns and requesting support for the Border agents. Here it is: http://www.azcentral.com/news/electi...bama07-ON.html

I think this law has to do with concern and safety for the public rather than bigotry.
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Postman, I'm glad we can have a reasoned discourse about this, where we have profound disagreements -- even on the definition of terms -- without resorting to personal attacks. It's quite a step up from the crap that goes for discussion on some other parts of this site, and which I, as a moderator, often have to deal with in a different sort of way.

So, that being said, I will treat your "white guilt" comment as a reference to others.

I stand by my definition of racism. I stand by my analysis of the law, which I have read. To believe that there will be none of the kinds of police actions that you say the law does not allow is, in my view, tremendously naive about the history of how the forces of authority deal with minorities when we are on the cusp of historic changes in how society is ordered.

I also stand by my use of the word "reactionary" in this context. Too often this word is misused to mean "right-wing." I don't mean it that way. Reaction is a tendency to revert to a former state. In this case, those who will one day (sooner rather than later) become the minority rather than maintain their majority status are reacting. There is no doubt in my mind.

I have yet to find a credible, unbiased analysis of this law that suggests it is the way to fight the cartels.

I have pretty much said everything I have to say on this issue, but I will continue to point out racism when I see it, so I may post again. And by that, I am not assigning racism to you, Postman. Just to be clear ...
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Originally Posted by smc View Post
Postman, I'm glad we can have a reasoned discourse about this, where we have profound disagreements -- even on the definition of terms -- without resorting to personal attacks. It's quite a step up from the crap that goes for discussion on some other parts of this site, and which I, as a moderator, often have to deal with in a different sort of way.

So, that being said, I will treat your "white guilt" comment as a reference to others.

I stand by my definition of racism. I stand by my analysis of the law, which I have read. To believe that there will be none of the kinds of police actions that you say the law does not allow is, in my view, tremendously naive about the history of how the forces of authority deal with minorities when we are on the cusp of historic changes in how society is ordered.

I also stand by my use of the word "reactionary" in this context. Too often this word is misused to mean "right-wing." I don't mean it that way. Reaction is a tendency to revert to a former state. In this case, those who will one day (sooner rather than later) become the minority rather than maintain their majority status are reacting. There is no doubt in my mind.

I have yet to find a credible, unbiased analysis of this law that suggests it is the way to fight the cartels.

I have pretty much said everything I have to say on this issue, but I will continue to point out racism when I see it, so I may post again. And by that, I am not assigning racism to you, Postman. Just to be clear ...
Well the most effective way to fight the cartels would to be to take the fight to them. Unfortunately, that will never happen as the Mexican Gov. is in collusion with the cartels as well as other South American governments and most of our government officials are candyasses anyways. Neither of them have any interests in fighting the cartels as they have major influence in the region and it is too good of a gravy train to let go of.

This law is not about fighting the cartels or racial majority/minority fears. It is about the public safety of the citizens of Arizona. The fact of the matter is that people are being killed by illegal immigrants and nothing is being done about it. The actions AZ has taken are designed with its citizens in mind and yet so many Americans are quick to condemn them. The victims are blamed and the criminals are heralded. That is not justice. It may not be the best course of action but it is necessary.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Gentlemen

You are going from the General to the Particular in your assertions, although I cannot claim to be entirely General in my enquiry about possible links between immigration and criminal activity in countries other than the UK.

It is common in the UK for the PC brigade ( usually in National or Local Government ) to dismiss concerns over law and order involving one or more non-Caucasian social groups with an immediate accusation of Racism - a convenient and neat way of not having to address the concerns of a lot of joe-citizens. To see Racism in every criticism involving a mixed-race population is to be an obsessive witch-finder. Not that I am implying that this is illustrated in this thread, but PC and ' racism ' are fertile areas for the control of others by the
' Thought Police '.

Reading this thread I must admit that I am getting a little more understanding of some of the social concerns of North America, and I welcome this.

Meanwhile I shall settle down to reading Mein Kampf later when I log off this forum. ( Only joking, honestly - my gallows humour coming through to the fore ! )
and keep the thread rolling.
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Old 06-09-2010
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We seem to be dealing with several issues here and getting them confused.
1-The vicious drug cartels are the result of the demand for illegal drugs in this country. This is a rerun of the mobs in the 1920s fighting over the illegal alcohol trade. Take the profit out of drugs and the cartels would disappear.
2- We have a long history of racism as the blacks know full well. We also hated the Irish, Jews, Polish, German and all the other later immigrants that came to this country. At the time, they were blamed for all or our troubles and were considered lawless and stupid. We also took over the Indians land and kept Mexicans as second class citizens.
3- I strongly suspect that if you look at the non drug related crime in Arizona or any other state, that Hispanics, legal or illegal, do not contribute a greater amount of crime than any other part of society. They are being made scapegoats because they are easily targeted by aspiring politicians who prefer to avoid the real issues confronting our society.
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We seem to be dealing with several issues here and getting them confused.
1-The vicious drug cartels are the result of the demand for illegal drugs in this country. This is a rerun of the mobs in the 1920s fighting over the illegal alcohol trade. Take the profit out of drugs and the cartels would disappear.
If you legalize drugs do you think the cartels are just going to go away? Are they going to go register for a business license? Are they going to let Pfizer set up facilities to start providing cocaine to store fronts? Or is it more likely that they are going illegally take over a now legal industry? The last time I checked, drug cartels don't really go for whole free market capitalism model of multiple suppliers selling a product and competing on price, quality and other factors. They operate more on the "Hey that guy is dealing coke in our territory, let's go kill him and his family" model. The whole "legalize the problem to make the problem go away" is defective thinking that is driving this immigration debate in the first place.

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2- We have a long history of racism as the blacks know full well. We also hated the Irish, Jews, Polish, German and all the other later immigrants that came to this country. At the time, they were blamed for all or our troubles and were considered lawless and stupid. We also took over the Indians land and kept Mexicans as second class citizens.
Humans in general have had a long history of racial and ethnic predjudice. Some non-American examples include: Mexicans hate blacks, El Salvadorians and Puerto Ricans, the Brits hate the Irish, the Serbs hate the Albanians, the Africans hate Afrikaaners, the Vietnamese hate Filipinos, the Samoans hate the Tongans, the Hutu Africans hate the Tutsie Africans, the Arabs hate the Jews, the ancient Greeks hated the Persians, the Germans hated the Jews, the Berbers hated the Ethiopians and the list goes on and on of all the races and ethnicities who hated each other. To deny this and only focus on one demographic that suits an arguement is intellectually dishonest.

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3- I strongly suspect that if you look at the non drug related crime in Arizona or any other state, that Hispanics, legal or illegal, do not contribute a greater amount of crime than any other part of society. They are being made scapegoats because they are easily targeted by aspiring politicians who prefer to avoid the real issues confronting our society.
Politicians always pander to "minorities" to curry their favor and gain their vote. This is nothing new. The problem is the murder of American civilians on American soil. To say that this is just a cover of their "inherent racism" also ignores the main fact that there are people actually getting killed over there at the hand of these cartel members.
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Old 06-09-2010
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Hy I am new to this post but I love the fact that like minded individuals have a place to express themselves.
As a legal mexican imigrant I have seen first hand what the problems with the imigration laws are and I would say that they do need to be changed. Unlike the ilegal imigrants I do not get any help from the government if i need something. My family has gone through the residency process to get our green cards for the past 15 years and we still have no answere. We have been legal from day one. through the process my sister had to go to college but she had to change her visa so she could get accepted because of this she will not recive her green card. We have tried to see how we can get her paperwork started but the lawyers tell us that it is almout imposible for her to get her greencard. So for doing everything the right way we get screwd but the people that are here ilegaly can get help to fix their papers.
Also in the last few years the crime rate in Mexico has increased but that is because the government has finally decided to fight the cartels so they are using the cartels are fighting to keep the business going. In Mexico it is ilegal for the people to have any type of guns so the cartels are geting the guns from the US and in most cases the equipment that the cartels have surpases the militarey equipment. I am not against having guns in the US but I would like to see a change on how easy it is to get a gun.
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Old 06-09-2010
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In California is illegal to employ illegals yet the law is not enforced. Why? Agriculture is a major part of California's economy. Most of the field workers are illegals, many with fake documents. Many farming operations simply could not stay in business without the hardworking illegals. I know from personal experience that people who have grown up in our affluent society are incapable of doing farm work. Putting in nine hours a day six days a week is beyond them.
No doubt. But I think it's high time Americans start working to produce their run society rather than relying on a group of people who will eventually guilt us into transforming our society and culture into something else.

Send the illegals back home. It will be tough for a while and the economy will take a hit. Preston and Penelope will have to get their hands dirty, but in the long run it will be worth it and we won't have to be ashamed of our history.
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The uproar is not targeted at the whole thing, but this part:

Officers have to interrogate everybody who looks like an illegal immigrant. Or anyone could sue him or her of not doing their job.
That's not what the law says. The law only allows police to ask about immigration status in the normal course of “lawful contact” with a person, such as a traffic stop or if they have committed a crime.

Before asking a person about immigration status, law enforcement officials are required by the law to have “reasonable suspicion” that a person is an illegal immigrant. The concept of “reasonable suspicion” is well established by court rulings. Since Arizona does not issue driver’s licenses to illegal immigrants, having a valid license creates a presumption of legal status. Examples of reasonable suspicion include:

* A driver stopped for a traffic violation has no license, or record of a driver’s license or other form of federal or state identification.
* A police officer observes someone buying fraudulent identity documents or crossing the border illegally.
* A police officer recognizes a gang member back on the street who he knows has been previously deported by the federal government.


Yeah, I know... There I go again bringing facts into the debate.
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Racism is about more than a "superiority of ability." It is belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce some inherent superiority or inferiority of particular races. Hence, drawing a link between race and crime so generally is a form of racism.
... unless that link can actually be shown to exist. I don't think the person making the link should be immediately accused of racism. Wouldn't that be another ism?
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I do not believe that anyone seriously believes this law is a way to stop the drug cartels. I do believe that the proponents of the law do believe that all Mexicans (including Mexican-Americans) are guilty of something: not being white, and becoming a larger part of the population than whites. People are terrified that "their America" is disappearing, and the Arizona law is just one of their reactionary responses.
See that would be that ism again. Immediately accusing someone of racism without considering any other motives. Like.... hmmm is entering the US (or most any country) without going through the proper channels legal? Well what-do-ya know... it's not! Imagine that. That could be a reason right there.

What do people shout at me when I say I always speed? GO THE SPEED LIMIT! IT'S THE LAW!!!

As for being terrified that "their America" is disappearing, perhaps we should add this to our law books:
*Foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;
*Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics," when foreigners are deemed detrimental to "economic or national interests," when they do not behave like good citizens in their own country, when they have broken US laws, and when "they are not found to be physically or mentally healthy."

Those laws are good enough for Mexico, shouldn't it be good enough for the Mexicans that come here?

And no, I'm not seriously advocating laws like this. Just enforce the laws we do have.
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Racism is about more than a "superiority of ability." It is belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities, and that racial differences produce some inherent superiority or inferiority of particular races. Hence, drawing a link between race and crime so generally is a form of racism.
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... unless that link can actually be shown to exist. I don't think the person making the link should be immediately accused of racism. Wouldn't that be another ism?
Tracy, there has never been any direct link shown between race and the propensity to engage in criminal behavior. Even in the most dangerous U.S. cities, where crime runs rampant in black communities, sociologists across the political spectrum, law enforcement, scholars of jurisprudence, and so on, agree that it is the socio-economic conditions that create the conditions of crime. The fact that one particular race is committing the crimes under such circumstances is a function of those socio-economic conditions, which may very well be (and are likely) linked to racial discrimination of some sort at some time. But crime is a response by all races, to some degree, to their socio-economic conditions, be it the need to put food on the table or just the need to lash out in a life of desperation and a sense of nothing for which to live.

Therefore, I stand by my statement that drawing a link between race and crime so generally -- that is, brushing an entire race with the brush, explicitly or implicity, of being criminals -- is racism.
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smc, while I agree with your contention that there is no direct link between race and criminal behavior, I don't take that conclusion as far as you. Because I believe there's such a thing as being racist and there's such a thing as being blind.

It would be racist for me to dislike or not trust a Mexican because of his race and nothing else. However, it would be BLIND of me to not notice that the majority of drugs being smuggled across our southwestern border are being done so by Mexican cartels. Does this observation make me racist? I think not. I realize that they're not engaging in the drug trade BECAUSE of their race, but I can draw observations that include race as a component.

Relative to your thoughts on a world without borders, I actually agree with you to some extent. However, we'd have to have a TRULY global economy where there would be no unfair tax advantages or social services to be derived from moving to one place or another. People would move purely for the scenery and weather. But when you have disparate economic incentives (such as free emergency room services, social welfare, higher wages, lower taxes, etc., etc.) it makes no sense to allow unrestricted free flow of people. In order to maintain the disparate economic incentives, you need borders. Now me, I'd just as soon take down all the incentives across every nation and let people move where they want. But we both know that won't be happening anytime soon.

As an example of a lesser known disparate economic advantage is the subsidy of grain like corn coupled with NAFTA. Because our government subsidizes corn (and the Mexican government does not), we are able to sell at prices below the fair market price. This put millions of Mexican farmers out of business and in search of work elsewhere (like across the border).
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smc, while I agree with your contention that there is no direct link between race and criminal behavior, I don't take that conclusion as far as you. Because I believe there's such a thing as being racist and there's such a thing as being blind.

It would be racist for me to dislike or not trust a Mexican because of his race and nothing else. However, it would be BLIND of me to not notice that the majority of drugs being smuggled across our southwestern border are being done so by Mexican cartels. Does this observation make me racist? I think not. I realize that they're not engaging in the drug trade BECAUSE of their race, but I can draw observations that include race as a component.

Relative to your thoughts on a world without borders, I actually agree with you to some extent. However, we'd have to have a TRULY global economy where there would be no unfair tax advantages or social services to be derived from moving to one place or another. People would move purely for the scenery and weather. But when you have disparate economic incentives (such as free emergency room services, social welfare, higher wages, lower taxes, etc., etc.) it makes no sense to allow unrestricted free flow of people. In order to maintain the disparate economic incentives, you need borders. Now me, I'd just as soon take down all the incentives across every nation and let people move where they want. But we both know that won't be happening anytime soon.
I would never call anyone a racist for pointing out the reality that "the majority of drugs being smuggled across our southwestern border are being done so by Mexican cartels." Racism would be saying that Mexicans, by the very nature of being Mexican (or Latino, or Hispanic, or whatever), are the type of people who would smuggle drugs. But explain to me, GRH, what purpose is served when you "draw observations that include race as a component" in this instance. None whatsoever. Think about it: race. None whatsoever. It is no different than when the newspaper reports a crime and mentions that the perpetrator was of a particular race and it has no bearing whatsoever on the story. This almost always happens with black people, because of predisposed racist tendencies that are so buried beneath the surface sometimes that the newspaper editors don't even realize what they're doing.

As for the "world without borders," you are correct that it won't be happening anytime soon. But your argument against it, as I read it, is essentially that it cannot be achieved. That's why nothing ever changes for the good! That's why so few in this country stop and think about, to take one example, how much healthcare could be provided if we simply built one less aircraft carrier. I could go on and on about this, but I'm sure you get the point.
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I would never call anyone a racist for pointing out the reality that "the majority of drugs being smuggled across our southwestern border are being done so by Mexican cartels." Racism would be saying that Mexicans, by the very nature of being Mexican (or Latino, or Hispanic, or whatever), are the type of people who would smuggle drugs. But explain to me, GRH, what purpose is served when you "draw observations that include race as a component" in this instance. None whatsoever. Think about it: race. None whatsoever. It is no different than when the newspaper reports a crime and mentions that the perpetrator was of a particular race and it has no bearing whatsoever on the story. This almost always happens with black people, because of predisposed racist tendencies that are so buried beneath the surface sometimes that the newspaper editors don't even realize what they're doing.
I would actually agree with you in that VERY little (if anything) is achieved by pointing out race, except for matters such as statistics. I DO think the statistics are telling in some ways, if only to point out some FACTS, such as the fact that most of the southwestern border is suffering from drug smuggling from Mexicans. That said, it's VERY EASY to confuse statistics with facts...For instance, any apparent statistic that says that minorities commit a higher percentage of crimes is probably NOT taking into account the fact that more minorities live in poverty conditions. Some people will confuse statistics with fact, and might assume that people commit crimes because they are minorities, as opposed to the much more logical assumption that crime is committed because people are poor.

So I think we are largely in agreement, and I don't place a whole lot of weight with statistics. I just wasn't sure if you were claiming people to be "racist" because they made an observation based on racial lines. As I think we agree, the extent to which one can generalize based on racial observations is VERY, VERY limited, but just because a person makes a racial observation does not make them a de facto racist.

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As for the "world without borders," you are correct that it won't be happening anytime soon. But your argument against it, as I read it, is essentially that it cannot be achieved. That's why nothing ever changes for the good! That's why so few in this country stop and think about, to take one example, how much healthcare could be provided if we simply built one less aircraft carrier. I could go on and on about this, but I'm sure you get the point.
Yes, I certainly do get your point, and I admittedly am conceding some degree of defeatist attitude in this respect. Seeing as the practical implication of having a "border-free" world is far out of reach, I guess I'm just not an idealist about achieving it any time soon.
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I DO think the statistics are telling in some ways, if only to point out some FACTS, such as the fact that most of the southwestern border is suffering from drug smuggling from Mexicans.
Wouldn't you agree that, first and foremost, the reason that "the southwestern border is suffering from drug smuggling from Mexicans" is because Mexico is the border country? In some parts of northern Sweden, there is a significant amount crime perpetrated by Finns who come across the border. It's Finns because of the proximity of Finland, not because Finns have a propensity to be criminals. Nor do Mexicans as a "race."

I'm glad for your other clarifications, GRH. This is a very productive and civil discussion thus far, among all participants, despite some tremendous disagreements and even some emotional overlooking of facts.
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. . . Seeing as the practical implication of having a "border-free" world is far out of reach, I guess I'm just not an idealist about achieving it any time soon.
I could easily see it happening towards the end of this century. Y'know, I used to think that I was born a century too early, but anymore I couldn't imagine a more exciting time to be alive. I believe we are on the verge of an evolutionary change the likes of which hasn't been seen since the agricultural revolution, or the advent of writing.

Nanotechnology has the potential to eliminate disease and mitigate injury to an extent never thought possible. Scientists are working to eliminate the aging gene (it's something that actually turns on at some point, and is only a check-and-balance, it's not inherently needed).

We're already seeing a trend towards globalization in the economic sectors. We have the technology TODAY to farm astral bodies for resources (though it's not feasible yet).

I don't see the possibility of a "cyberpunk" reality in our lifetimes as unrealistic, at all!
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I would actually agree with you in that VERY little (if anything) is achieved by pointing out race, except for matters such as statistics. I DO think the statistics are telling in some ways, if only to point out some FACTS, such as the fact that most of the southwestern border is suffering from drug smuggling from Mexicans. That said, it's VERY EASY to confuse statistics with facts...For instance, any apparent statistic that says that minorities commit a higher percentage of crimes is probably NOT taking into account the fact that more minorities live in poverty conditions. Some people will confuse statistics with fact, and might assume that people commit crimes because they are minorities, as opposed to the much more logical assumption that crime is committed because people are poor.
I disagree that people commit crimes because they are poor. I grew up very poor. I didn't nor did any family members commit crimes. Rather crimes are committed because of free will. A person can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal.
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I disagree that people commit crimes because they are poor. I grew up very poor. I didn't nor did any family members commit crimes. Rather crimes are committed because of free will. A person can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal.
There is an almost irrefutable link between poverty and crime. It has been studied and so concluded by governments and academics across the political spectrum and in every part of the world.

That said, ila's point is well taken. Of course, a person "can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal." But simplistic notions of "crime" and "criminal" serve no good purpose except to allow people to make grand pronouncements -- truisms, if you will -- such as that of ila, for whom I have the greatest respect. Let me explain.

There is a significant difference between, say, the man who steals some baby formula from the market for his infant at home because he has no job, no money, and no immediate prospects to reverse the situation, and the man who engages in a criminal enterprise with others to, say, extort the market from which the first man has stolen (such as the Mafia demanding "protection money" from the shopkeeper). I am not excusing the first man, nor saying that his theft is not a crime, but how are we to solve the big problems of society if we offer simplistic observations that reflect only our own experiences and fail to account for the complexities of the broader world.

Like ila, I grew up relatively poor. My family was fortunate in that there were friends and an extended family beyond my mother and father who helped out, but I know plenty of people who did not have these "safety nets." In the United States, most poor people have no safety net. The research suggests that the number of U.S. families that are one paycheck away from homelessness or desititution is staggering. In that context, and acknowledging free will, is it any wonder that a poor person might resort to a crime for survival. Again, I don't excuse it, but I do encourage all to note the difference between crimes and criminals.
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There is an almost irrefutable link between poverty and crime. It has been studied and so concluded by governments and academics across the political spectrum and in every part of the world.

That said, ila's point is well taken. Of course, a person "can choose to be law abiding or choose to be a criminal." But simplistic notions of "crime" and "criminal" serve no good purpose except to allow people to make grand pronouncements -- truisms, if you will -- such as that of ila, for whom I have the greatest respect. Let me explain.

There is a significant difference between, say, the man who steals some baby formula from the market for his infant at home because he has no job, no money, and no immediate prospects to reverse the situation, and the man who engages in a criminal enterprise with others to, say, extort the market from which the first man has stolen (such as the Mafia demanding "protection money" from the shopkeeper). I am not excusing the first man, nor saying that his theft is not a crime, but how are we to solve the big problems of society if we offer simplistic observations that reflect only our own experiences and fail to account for the complexities of the broader world.

Like ila, I grew up relatively poor. My family was fortunate in that there were friends and an extended family beyond my mother and father who helped out, but I know plenty of people who did not have these "safety nets." In the United States, most poor people have no safety net. The research suggests that the number of U.S. families that are one paycheck away from homelessness or desititution is staggering. In that context, and acknowledging free will, is it any wonder that a poor person might resort to a crime for survival. Again, I don't excuse it, but I do encourage all to note the difference between crimes and criminals.
I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.
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I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.
So far this discussion has focused on illegals, poor and crime. As it has moved away from illegals, I suggest that the most massive horrendous crimes in this country are committed by well educated white men on Wall Street and in Washington. Madoff among many others, Goldman, etc.
Greedy money grubbers rule this country and wealth continues to shift from the middle class to the ultra rich.
I was poopood in a previous post (Obama thread) that Obama was really not a socialist but a corporate suporter, just look what has happened. Who has been bailed out at our expense? The criminals are still in power.
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Tracy, there has never been any direct link shown between race and the propensity to engage in criminal behavior.
I never said there was a link between race and criminal behavior. Actually that thought is ridiculous to me. But immediately accusing someone of racism when other reasons for their remarks are possible is another form of prejudice.

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Even in the most dangerous U.S. cities, where crime runs rampant in black communities, sociologists across the political spectrum, law enforcement, scholars of jurisprudence, and so on, agree that it is the socio-economic conditions that create the conditions of crime.
Exactly. And in Mel Asher's post:
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The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
He never said the reason for this was because of race. Yet you immediately assumed that was his intention. Could it be that socio-economic conditions created problems with the immigrants in the UK as well? He was talking about the politics of the situation there and how, like in Arizona, the police have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity. Apparently because of this prejudice of people who holler RACIST at every chance he needed to clarify that the example he was using was a result of socio-economic conditions.
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I would never call anyone a racist for pointing out the reality that "the majority of drugs being smuggled across our southwestern border are being done so by Mexican cartels."
Or for pointing out the reality of crimes committed by immigrants in the UK.
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I never said there was a link between race and criminal behavior. Actually that thought is ridiculous to me. But immediately accusing someone of racism when other reasons for their remarks are possible is another form of prejudice.

Exactly. And in Mel Asher's post:
He never said the reason for this was because of race. Yet you immediately assumed that was his intention. Could it be that socio-economic conditions created problems with the immigrants in the UK as well? He was talking about the politics of the situation there and how, like in Arizona, the police have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity. Apparently because of this prejudice of people who holler RACIST at every chance he needed to clarify that the example he was using was a result of socio-economic conditions.
Tracy, with all due respect, you really should read more carefully. I did not ascribe to you the statement that there was a link between race and crime. I was very, very clear that I was responding to these words that you wrote: "... unless that link can actually be shown to exist."

I am not alone in being a person who does not appreciate words being put in his mouth.

Nor did I accuse Mel Asher of being a racist. Read my post again. I discussed the perception he reported. I did not assume it was his view, and I did not ascribe anything to him personally.

Nevertheless, despite the care I take in what I write, you decide to imply things about me and my motives that are simply not true. Go back and read the posts. You don't have to agree with my statements, but I defy you to prove that I did what you accuse me of. Yes, prove. It is possible to diagram writing in a way that shows the connotative and denotative links among the words and phrases.

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Or for pointing out the reality of crimes committed by immigrants in the UK.
That's right, because racism is not based on reality and real facts. It doesn't change anything I wrote.
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Tracy, with all due respect, you really should read more carefully. I did not ascribe to you the statement that there was a link between race and crime.
I don't think I said you did, did I?

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Nor did I accuse Mel Asher of being a racist. Read my post again. I discussed the perception he reported. I did not assume it was his view, and I did not ascribe anything to him personally.
My apologies. When you said "This is a racist view" I thought you meant Mel Asher's interpretation of what was going on in the UK was Mel's racist view.

He wrote:
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The general perception in the United Kingdom with its unchecked European, Indian and African immigration of the past eight years is that crime syndicates, particularly from Eastern Europe, Nigeria and the horn of Africa, have prospered and expanded their spheres of operation, particularly in the child sex-trade.
Governments, almost without exception, will invariably deny that there is a problem, but it is the police and general public who have to bear the brunt of political incompetence and laxity.

It would be interesting to have figures to show if rises in levels of immigration across Western Europe, and North America have occurred in the past ten years, and if so, what the percentages are. Prison figures might also show a correspondence, if one exists.
So, what specifically is the racist view? UK's perception that crime syndicates from Eastern Europe, Nigeria, and the horn of Africa is actually racism and no such crime syndicates exist? I still don't see how racism is the most likely thing going on here. Or maybe it's just really late and I'm confused.
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I base my statement not just on my own experience, but from what I have seen. When I was young most of my friends were considered poor or at least low income. None of my friends turned to crime. We did, however, turn out to be independant, self reliant, and hardworking.

I have met many poor people in my travels and the majority did not turn to crime to survive. Naturally there are those that have turned to crime. I would say it's sloth that causes a person to turn to crime rather than being poor.
I think it's the culture. Some cultures will teach that someone else is to blame for their predicament and that it's ok to do whatever is necessary to even the score and balance things out. Ila, it sounds like the culture you're from relies more on their selves to create their own destiny, which I find much more admirable.... unless of course you're a jew and hezbolah is lobbing rockets at you and then you might have a very good reason to believe that another group of people is to blame for your misery.
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