Ungendering and a Lack of Respect

[ila]

Recently there have been some comments on here which ungender the transwomen of the world. This is not something new on here, but there have never been as many comments at one time as there has been in the last week.

By ungendering I mean making statements that ciswomen are "real women" and by inference that transwomen aren't real. As transwomen are real women then one is taking away transwomen's gender by inferring that they are not real women. Still other statements have referred to ciswomen as women and females whereas in the same post transwomen have been referred as tgirls. This is just another way to ungender transwomen by inferring that transwomen are neither women nor female. The men on here claim to love/admire/want transwomen and yet statements that ungender transwomen show a great lack of respect.

I am sure that some members have made these statements without realizing how hurtful it can be. There are still others that have made such statements knowing full well what the impact is.

I would like to remind the men here to show more respect to all transwomen. Please do not refer to ciswomen as the only real women. Remember that transwomen are real women and they are female.

To put this in perspective I would ask the men to think of how they would feel if they were referred to as she or her or any other feminine term. If you are offended or feel uncomfortable or even pissed off then you are on the path to realizing how a transwoman feels when she is ungendered.

To get a better perspective on this subject I encourage you to click on the link below. It will take you to the thread Real Girls which was started by Bionca.

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=3444

[shadows]

I will say that I have seen examples of what you are talking about, Ila. I have tried correcting a couple of the members, but I am not sure if I was stepping on any toes being a new member myself.

I cannot be sure but it could stem from the fact that a few members view their adoration/love as a kink or as merely a physical outlet for their desires.

To me, they are women. More importantly they are fellow human beings and not merely an object of desire to me.

[Bionca]

A big thank you bump!

[9yneGuy]

I'll just share my story and I'm guessing a lot of the people who use "real woman" are/were in the same boat as I used to be in.

I've never met a transgendered person in my life. I've always respected their choices and lifestyles but I knew little about them or the "terms" describing them. I became interested in t-girls through porn. But beyond porn, I knew little to nothing. I joined this site, and I didn't know the "lingo" so to speak. I'm fairly certain that I used the term "real girl" at least once. But I didn't know that it was offensive; I just didn't know of another term to use. I saw that it was offensive and I immediately stopped using it. I found out that the term to use is "genetic girl" or "g-girl" and I use that now. I've always knew that t-girls are real girls. There's never been a time in my life where I've denied that fact. Women are women, no matter what sexual organ they have.

I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. Just to say that not everyone who used that term is a bad guy here, especially if they use it without really knowing how bad it is. Hopefully the people who read this and still use the term will shape up and stop using it.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by 9yneGuy

I'll just share my story and I'm guessing a lot of the people who use "real woman" are/were in the same boat as I used to be in.

I've never met a transgendered person in my life. I've always respected their choices and lifestyles but I knew little about them or the "terms" describing them. I became interested in t-girls through porn. But beyond porn, I knew little to nothing. I joined this site, and I didn't know the "lingo" so to speak. I'm fairly certain that I used the term "real girl" at least once. But I didn't know that it was offensive; I just didn't know of another term to use. I saw that it was offensive and I immediately stopped using it. I found out that the term to use is "genetic girl" or "g-girl" and I use that now. I've always knew that t-girls are real girls. There's never been a time in my life where I've denied that fact. Women are women, no matter what sexual organ they have.

I just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in here. Just to say that not everyone who used that term is a bad guy here, especially if they use it without really knowing how bad it is. Hopefully the people who read this and still use the term will shape up and stop using it.

I like this and I can almost see using "real girl" if you didn't know better. My only problem is that it is still a pretty thoughtless word choice. I mean literally, little thought used in choosing that word. Because if you think about it for a little bit, the opposite of "real" is "fake". Given the nature of the conversations, I'm sure that thinking about precise meaning behind word is not high on the list of priorities - so it happens (lots)

I think problems start when guys get corrected and then launch into post after post defending their right to use "real girl" and to make it clear that trans women are not, in fact, "real women". These are the guys this needs to reach. This is why it is better for you guys to do the right thing and tell your fellow dudes that trans women are Real and women.

[ila]

It's time to bump this thread to the front again. Recently I've seen a lot of use of the terms real women, real girls, "she", his, and several other terms that have been ungendering transwomen. I am not bumping this thread to admonish any particular member or members. Rather I am using this opportunity to provide enlightenment for those that would like to know the correct terms to use and also to show why some terms are hurtful.

[lumpes]

respect to all who like this world, and to all who wish to try

[Magnetical]

Hi, Ila. Great post. I don't really post here often but I enjoy reading people's perspectives on the whole "trans" gender issue because my girlfriend happens to be a transexual girl and she directed me to this site a long time ago and I read a thought-provoking post so I signed up.

In your defence, I imagine it must be frustrating when men use this site to express their hidden fantasies about being with trans-gendered women as opposed to biological women. However, in their defence, I can understand the infatuation; it's only natural to be curious. But guys, being guys, can obviously get a bit crass - we're an uneducated lot that need slow and steady teaching.

In my personal experience, I've witnessed the broad spectrum of this subject, but I don't presume to understand. I live in the central business district of Sydney (home of Mardi Gras). This is not to insinuate that you belong in a category, I'm merely saying that where I come from probably better equips me for this topic better than most men. I am fortunate enough to be surrounded by a circle of friends who come from all walks of life and sexuality that generally reserves judgement. Maybe this social standing helps me a bit better, maybe it doesn't. I can't say for sure.

However, in my ignorance and perhaps bohemian upbringing, I've never really looked at transgendered women as "TRANSgendered" per se. This is perhaps either cute or stupid. That my girlfriend happens to have a penis is really only subjective in the fact that it's part of her anatomy. Maybe she might have had a vagina, whatever; that's not what attracted me to her because she wasn't naked when I met her.

Sometimes she gets really quiet on this issue and so I don't say anything because I don't want to upset her by seeming pushy, but I know she thinks about it. She broaches the subject sometimes but then falls silent. How can I better understand her? Part of me wants to tell her she's beautiful and to shut up etc but I know that sounds a bit shallow and lacking empathy. Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you for an informative post. You've given me a better appreciation and I hope I can see things a bit better now. All the best.

[franalexes]

Women are meant to be loved; not understood.

[valentinetabitha]

I'm glad this thread exists, largely because it helps me figure out how to properly word my posts. While I've been posting here for a while, I'm not all that involved in the transgendered community. I'm here to learn, and to experience as much of the community as I can since I don't have the option of "coming out" publically any time soon (if ever).

[sesame]

Originally Posted by franalexes

Women are meant to be loved; not understood.

Women!!!
The fairer sex!
The better half!
Those graceful creatures!

Who can understand them? (when women are incapapable of understanding themselves!)
Women almost always are proud. They have the misconception that the world revolves around themselves. They are frequently offended and holler a big drama out of thin air! All their speeches & actions are focussed on drawing attention, preferrably of the "darker?" sex (men).

If you want to have sex with her, she will call you "lustful, lewd, salacious"!
If you dont ask her for sex, she will complain of being ignored, "not loved anymore"!

Its futile to understand them, for there is nothing to understand.
I think its the hormones!

[smc]

Originally Posted by sesame

Women!!!
The fairer sex!
The better half!
Those graceful creatures!

Who can understand them? (when women are incapapable of understanding themselves!)
Women almost always are proud. They have the misconception that the world revolves around themselves. They are frequently offended and holler a big drama out of thin air! All their speeches & actions are focussed on drawing attention, preferrably of the "darker?" sex (men).

If you want to have sex with her, she will call you "lustful, lewd, salacious"!
If you dont ask her for sex, she will complain of being ignored, "not loved anymore"!

Its futile to understand them, for there is nothing to understand.
I think its the hormones!

Aren't stereotypes and generalizations comforting?

[missyflirtz]

Two personal experiences:

A few months ago, a woman introduced me (genetic male with appearance to match) to another male as "my sister." This other male took me for female, saying to my female friend afterward: "Why does M__ wear male clothes?" When I heard subsequently about this gender confusion, it seemed impossible to me that someone's visual cues could be so heavily influenced by the form of introduction. But then, when I thought further, it became sort of a turn-on, that merely calling someone female was enough to make it so! My self-assessment as male outside and significantly female inside was rewarded!

A few weeks ago, I saw a stage performer whose gender is so genuinely ambiguous that this person rejects all gendered pronouns with respect to this person's self. And it is easy to see that neither "she" nor "he" nor any other gender designation is anything like comprehensively accurate.

In conclusion, just want to affirm that all of us are truly "real" but that reality can be complicated.

[smc]

Originally Posted by missyflirtz

Two personal experiences:

A few months ago, a woman introduced me (genetic male with appearance to match) to another male as "my sister." This other male took me for female, saying to my female friend afterward: "Why does M__ wear male clothes?" When I heard subsequently about this gender confusion, it seemed impossible to me that someone's visual cues could be so heavily influenced by the form of introduction. But then, when I thought further, it became sort of a turn-on, that merely calling someone female was enough to make it so! My self-assessment as male outside and significantly female inside was rewarded!

A few weeks ago, I saw a stage performer whose gender is so genuinely ambiguous that this person rejects all gendered pronouns with respect to this person's self. And it is easy to see that neither "she" nor "he" nor any other gender designation is anything like comprehensively accurate.

In conclusion, just want to affirm that all of us are truly "real" but that reality can be complicated.

Thank you for sharing these two experiences. Your first post is one of the best firsts I have seen on this site. Welcome, and enjoy your time here.

[natandreita]

I somehow remembered this thread after I found this article:

http://do-while.com/worlds-most-beau...transvestites/

The continuous use of he/she his/her and expressions like "she's a man" just made me sick

[harryballs42]

It surprises me how many people don't realize that gender self-identification has nothing to do with sexual preference.

[dom4tg]

This thread seems to pander to transgender feminists, hyper-sensitive to even the slightest perceived offence to their identity - real or imagined. I have a couple of points to make on that:

1 - The title of this site is transladyboy - it is a porn site in case that wasn?t obvious. Preaching to others about politically correct gender terms in this context is bit rich. Part of the appeal of such sites is that people can fantasise and express that fantasy in words most comfortable to them - not kill it dead by running it through a feminist spellchecker first. That is not to say people should be intentionally offensive (especially to other members) - only that people should use a bit more common sense given the context here.

2 - Transgender covers plenty besides transwomen battling against patriarchal oppression etc. There are hopefully transgender individuals on here and admirers that have a grown up, flexible view of human sexuality, and appreciate that transgender individuals attract admirers for reasons many and varied. I sometimes like to see some M-to-F trans as feminine males...it emphasises the contrast between their extreme feminity and the fact they were born male...a contrast which I find very erotic in itself...but that?s just me. The point is, whatever your reason for liking a particular trans, it's as valid as any other.

dom4tg

[smc]

Originally Posted by dom4tg

This thread seems to pander to transgender feminists, hyper-sensitive to even the slightest perceived offence to their identity - real or imagined. I have a couple of points to make on that:

1 - The title of this site is transladyboy - it is a porn site in case that wasn?t obvious. Preaching to others about politically correct gender terms in this context is bit rich. Part of the appeal of such sites is that people can fantasise and express that fantasy in words most comfortable to them - not kill it dead by running it through a feminist spellchecker first. That is not to say people should be intentionally offensive (especially to other members) - only that people should use a bit more common sense given the context here.

2 - Transgender covers plenty besides transwomen battling against patriarchal oppression etc. There are hopefully transgender individuals on here and admirers that have a grown up, flexible view of human sexuality, and appreciate that transgender individuals attract admirers for reasons many and varied. I sometimes like to see some M-to-F trans as feminine males...it emphasises the contrast between their extreme feminity and the fact they were born male...a contrast which I find very erotic in itself...but that?s just me. The point is, whatever your reason for liking a particular trans, it's as valid as any other.

dom4tg

Your points aside, respectful language will be used on this site -- despite the presence of porn -- or there will be consequences.

[Bionca]

Originally Posted by dom4tg

This thread seems to pander to transgender feminists, hyper-sensitive to even the slightest perceived offence to their identity - real or imagined. I have a couple of points to make on that:

1 - The title of this site is transladyboy - it is a porn site in case that wasn?t obvious. Preaching to others about politically correct gender terms in this context is bit rich. Part of the appeal of such sites is that people can fantasise and express that fantasy in words most comfortable to them - not kill it dead by running it through a feminist spellchecker first. That is not to say people should be intentionally offensive (especially to other members) - only that people should use a bit more common sense given the context here.

2 - Transgender covers plenty besides transwomen battling against patriarchal oppression etc. There are hopefully transgender individuals on here and admirers that have a grown up, flexible view of human sexuality, and appreciate that transgender individuals attract admirers for reasons many and varied. I sometimes like to see some M-to-F trans as feminine males...it emphasises the contrast between their extreme feminity and the fact they were born male...a contrast which I find very erotic in itself...but that?s just me. The point is, whatever your reason for liking a particular trans, it's as valid as any other.

dom4tg

Calling women "women" and men "men" is hardly "politically correct gender terms". One could hazard to say it is simply being correct. The point of this thread is so that people DON"T unintentionally or intentionally insult members of the forum. The site is full of terms that most trans women would not be happy to be called in anything but a porn context with zero comment from the site moderators or the trans women themselves.

One would think that observing the reality that trans women are women wouldn't be controversial here. Individual people have their own individual reasons for liking/desiring/admiring trans bodies and I don't think anyone wants to police the depths of personal desire.

The flip side of this rule is that people don't call "admirers" (chasers, etc.) "fags" - which seems to get most of you all into a massive angst fest. Seems a pretty fair trade to me.

[dom4tg]

Originally Posted by smc

Your points aside, respectful language will be used on this site -- despite the presence of porn -- or there will be consequences.

I believe in common-sense respect - not political correctness...at least not on a porn site.

Being selectively PC is even more dubious. It seems OK to say ?I want to jizz on her face? so long as I get the pronoun right yes ? Hmmmm...

Seriously, if you want to be that PC, at least be consistent...but then there wouldn?t be a site at all right ?

Here?s a constructive suggestion... why not set up a more ?liberal? forum where people can speak freely using terms/labels they prefer to use.

Originally Posted by Bionca

Calling women "women" and men "men" is hardly "politically correct gender terms". One could hazard to say it is simply being correct. The point of this thread is so that people DON"T unintentionally or intentionally insult members of the forum. The site is full of terms that most trans women would not be happy to be called in anything but a porn context with zero comment from the site moderators or the trans women themselves.

One would think that observing the reality that trans women are women wouldn't be controversial here. Individual people have their own individual reasons for liking/desiring/admiring trans bodies and I don't think anyone wants to police the depths of personal desire.

The flip side of this rule is that people don't call "admirers" (chasers, etc.) "fags" - which seems to get most of you all into a massive angst fest. Seems a pretty fair trade to me.

Controversial as it may be, I think some people regard trans women not as women but as something other...not necessarily less I should add. Indeed, if I saw m-to-f transgender individuals exactly as women, then I would arguably be attracted to genetic females in exactly the same way, which is certainly not the case.

PS - I personally have no objection to being called, fag, chaser etc., because I confident in my own sexuality/identity that such labels don't mean that much to me. I also accept that gender and sexuality are slippery subjects and it is tempting for people to apply labels for simplicity, whether these are appropriate or not.

dom4tg

[smc]

Originally Posted by dom4tg

I believe in common-sense respect - not political correctness...at least not on a porn site.

Being selectively PC is even more dubious. It seems OK to say ?I want to jizz on her face? so long as I get the pronoun right yes ? Hmmmm...

Seriously, if you want to be that PC, at least be consistent...but then there wouldn?t be a site at all right ?

Here?s a constructive suggestion... why not set up a more ?liberal? forum where people can speak freely using terms/labels they prefer to use.





Controversial as it may be, I think some people regard trans women not as women but as something other...not necessarily less I should add. Indeed, if I saw m-to-f transgender individuals exactly as women, then I would arguably be attracted to genetic females in exactly the same way, which is certainly not the case.

PS - I personally have no objection to being called, fag, chaser etc., because I confident in my own sexuality/identity that such labels don't mean that much to me. I also accept that gender and sexuality are slippery subjects and it is tempting for people to apply labels for simplicity, whether these are appropriate or not.

dom4tg

It's an interesting way to begin your participation here on this site: you have two posts (as of this writing), both of which take issue with a longstanding policy here. Bionca sums it up very well.

I suggest you write to the site owner, SSL, and make what you think is a "constructive suggestion." I have every confidence that it will be rejected, because it is not constructive. It is destructive. Words matter, and whether you like it or not -- and whether you think that you can use "PC" pejoratively and make it seem worse -- ungendering as explained in the initial post of this thread will not be tolerated.

[ila]

Originally Posted by dom4tg

I believe in common-sense respect - not political correctness...at least not on a porn site.

Being selectively PC is even more dubious. It seems OK to say ?I want to jizz on her face? so long as I get the pronoun right yes ? Hmmmm...

Seriously, if you want to be that PC, at least be consistent...but then there wouldn?t be a site at all right ?

Here?s a constructive suggestion... why not set up a more ?liberal? forum where people can speak freely using terms/labels they prefer to use.

You have only just joined the site and your two posts have been to complain about the site. I have a constructive suggestion for you; if you don't like the site or the rules then feel free to leave.

[Be_my_nude]

Is dom4tg suggesting that he wishes to feel free unintentionally to cause offence to other members of this site ? The terminology doesn't sit together at all comfortably anyway. What's wrong with him at least trying not to cause offence ? How about him making a start by apologising his ' unintentional ' original offensive attitude and make a fresh start by taking more care in future ? Or is he deliberately trying to give himself permission to cause offence in future by claiming this forum has PC rules. Sorry dom4tg, you really must think again and learn not to be deliberately obnoxious in your use of specious arguments.

No from me yet - sorry !

[shadows]

Originally Posted by dom4tg

This thread seems to pander to transgender feminists, hyper-sensitive to even the slightest perceived offence to their identity - real or imagined. I have a couple of points to make on that:

1 - The title of this site is transladyboy - it is a porn site in case that wasn?t obvious. Preaching to others about politically correct gender terms in this context is bit rich. Part of the appeal of such sites is that people can fantasise and express that fantasy in words most comfortable to them - not kill it dead by running it through a feminist spellchecker first. That is not to say people should be intentionally offensive (especially to other members) - only that people should use a bit more common sense given the context here.

2 - Transgender covers plenty besides transwomen battling against patriarchal oppression etc. There are hopefully transgender individuals on here and admirers that have a grown up, flexible view of human sexuality, and appreciate that transgender individuals attract admirers for reasons many and varied. I sometimes like to see some M-to-F trans as feminine males...it emphasises the contrast between their extreme feminity and the fact they were born male...a contrast which I find very erotic in itself...but that?s just me. The point is, whatever your reason for liking a particular trans, it's as valid as any other.

dom4tg

Now that you are banned, I seriously doubt that you'll even read this but I am going to post this anyhow.

There are many members(the majority actually) here that ARE NOT in the pornography business(and even if they are, they are still deserving of respect) and there are MANY threads here that have nothing to do with pornography at all.

Your posts here, and your attempts at justifying them, just shows that you don't get it at all.

[rgargizzle]

I have been with a handful of so-called shemales and more women and I can tell you the difference is purely physical. I have met a lot of people in my life and all of them have been different. It really depends on the person. Everyone we meet is a true individual and whether or not you are into them sexually or not is what it comes down to. I have been around enough to know that everyone is looking for their own thing. I have known TGirls that are 100% females in how they interact with our world and have also known so-called trannies that are men in dresses, so I know what IO am talking about. i think people use terms insensitively but for the most part mean well.

[loveshemales]

I think that shemales are a god send because they have the beuty in there face and nice tits and of course the tasty dick in between there legs I have always wanted to date and eventually marry a shemale

[shadows]

Originally Posted by loveshemales

I think that shemales are a god send because they have the beuty in there face and nice tits and of course the tasty dick in between there legs I have always wanted to date and eventually marry a shemale

Calling them shemales is probably not going to get you too many marriage offers. Why don't you just call them women, as that is what they are?

Also, I hope there would be more reasons that you would wish to marry her than just her "face, tits, and tasty dick".

Found this today while out browsing for something else entirely... Very interesting and informative.

http://www.queerty.com/lets-learn-th...void-20110620/

[TheUser]

Wow, this is an unbelievable thread.

You banned a guy for sharing an opinion that did not align with your own. He was not disrespectful in any way, was not belligerent or hostile and I doubt his intent was to pick a fight. I think he genuinely just wanted to share his opinion because he disagreed with previous posts and he was immediately threatened by several members of this forum and then banned. You should be ashamed of yourselves for being such hypocrites.

He came here to talk and you all just shut him down. If it's your goal to change the hearts and minds of people that you deem disrespectful in regards to transgender issues then you are failing at this task miserably. You have to be open to discussion and you will certainly be confronted by many that do not agree with your views. Even after a civil argument, they still will not agree with you in most cases. You need to understand that your views are opinion and not words of righteousness, just like dom4TGs views are his opinion. You could have at least had a 2 sided conversation instead of simply stroking each other off.

Your conduct toward dom4tg was basically totalitarian and insanely hypocritical. You basically proved dom4tg's very first point by banning him. He wins this argument.

The same goes for the overall theme of this thread, disregarding the scuffle with dom4tg for a second. You're basically setting a tone of "respect the lingo OR ELSE!" for this site. It's absurd that you all think you have the right to not be offended. It's called life. You are free to do all you can do to try and change the world, but you can't blow your lid the second somebody offends you. Well, you can, but don't expect positive results.

Lastly, as mentioned previously, this is a porn site, plain and simple. You want to have serious discussions about respect for transgendered people, maybe think about moving this forum to a more suitable domain. This is seriously laughable. I know for me and many others, outright and blatant disrespect of a person, whether it's physical, verbal, or psychological, can be a huge part of a sexual fantasy. So you shouldn't be at all offended or surprised when you see terms like "tranny" or "shemale" tossed around at a place like this. Quite small offenses in the grand scheme of things.

[smc]

Originally Posted by TheUser

Wow, this is an unbelievable thread.

You banned a guy for sharing an opinion that did not align with your own. He was not disrespectful in any way, was not belligerent or hostile and I doubt his intent was to pick a fight. I think he genuinely just wanted to share his opinion because he disagreed with previous posts and he was immediately threatened by several members of this forum and then banned. You should be ashamed of yourselves for being such hypocrites.

He came here to talk and you all just shut him down. If it's your goal to change the hearts and minds of people that you deem disrespectful in regards to transgender issues then you are failing at this task miserably. You have to be open to discussion and you will certainly be confronted by many that do not agree with your views. Even after a civil argument, they still will not agree with you in most cases. You need to understand that your views are opinion and not words of righteousness, just like dom4TGs views are his opinion. You could have at least had a 2 sided conversation instead of simply stroking each other off.

Your conduct toward dom4tg was basically totalitarian and insanely hypocritical. You basically proved dom4tg's very first point by banning him. He wins this argument.

The same goes for the overall theme of this thread, disregarding the scuffle with dom4tg for a second. You're basically setting a tone of "respect the lingo OR ELSE!" for this site. It's absurd that you all think you have the right to not be offended. It's called life. You are free to do all you can do to try and change the world, but you can't blow your lid the second somebody offends you. Well, you can, but don't expect positive results.

Lastly, as mentioned previously, this is a porn site, plain and simple. You want to have serious discussions about respect for transgendered people, maybe think about moving this forum to a more suitable domain. This is seriously laughable. I know for me and many others, outright and blatant disrespect of a person, whether it's physical, verbal, or psychological, can be a huge part of a sexual fantasy. So you shouldn't be at all offended or surprised when you see terms like "tranny" or "shemale" tossed around at a place like this. Quite small offenses in the grand scheme of things.

This is a very interesting first post on this site. One could reasonably assume that you are either here exclusively for the purpose of challenging the stated rules of the Forum, or are a friend of the banned person to whom you refer, or are the banned person back with a different ID, or all of the above.

You begin on this site by calling those of us who are responsible for enforcing the rules a series of names: "hypocrites," "totalitarian," even "insanely hypocritical." You presume to know the full extent of the story. You presume to know of the PMs that might have passed during the interchange.

You lecture us about the purpose of the site, as if it is yours to determine. You call it a "porn site, plain and simple." It is not, though, yours to determine. You can only have an opinion; you do not dictate the site's purpose. Why? Because this is a privately owned site. And to be clear, there are no rights here, other than those afforded by the site owner. It is his domain. He can decide whether a combination of porn and proscribed discussion is allowable, or he can decide whether only some porn and completely free rein in discussion is allowable, or he can decide that only women with first names beginning in "L" and who are between the ages of 27 and 39 can participate.

My suggestion is that if you wish to defend the ungendering of transpeople, you find somewhere else to post. The arrogance of a first post such as yours -- and the arrogance is PRECISELY because it is your first post -- is not something we haven't seen before, and the outcome of the user's participation here is almost always the same.

[pussyboy]

i want to apologize for any ungendering remarks i made.it was strictly unintentional and from now on will pick my words more carefully.to me transexuals are women like any other but with a bonus.

[Interesting]

i did not read the entire thread, but speaking to the thread's title, there's simply two genders.

Male
Female

all that falls in between are 'abnormalities' in sense that somewhere along the genetic coding and biochemical make up, an abnormality occurred that caused said gender to act out of line to the 'majority' or 'norm'.

with that being said, this is to be respected and recognized, violence or out right hate is not a viable way to react or deal with this reality.

Also, for all that fall in between, they might disagree with my statements, but i think this is due to their unique position in life and their strive to find a solid identity that can be 'official'.

[tslust]

Originally Posted by Interesting

i did not read the entire thread, but speaking to the thread's title, there's simply two genders.

Male
Female

all that falls in between are 'abnormalities'

Did not read the entire post, but ---just my opinion of you.

(I apologize in advance to anyone other than the intended recipient -Interesting- who might be offended by this.)

[Interesting]

Originally Posted by tslust

Did not read the entire post, but ---just my opinion of you.

(I apologize in advance to anyone other than the intended recipient -Interesting- who might be offended by this.)

yes yes, i'm soo bad. At least i wrote down semi-coherent thoughts in my quoted post, why can't you? or are you automatically offended if i don't sub in 'i love shemale cock' in every post i make?

[smc]

Originally Posted by Interesting

yes yes, i'm soo bad. At least i wrote down semi-coherent thoughts in my quoted post, why can't you? or are you automatically offended if i don't sub in 'i love shemale cock' in every post i make?

Interesting, you would be wise to respond to my PM.

[tslust]

Originally Posted by Interesting

At least i wrote down semi-coherent thoughts in my quoted post, why can't you?

Umm actually I think I expressed my thoughts rather well.

[ila]

Originally Posted by tslust

Did not read the entire post, but ---just my opinion of you.

(I apologize in advance to anyone other than the intended recipient -Interesting- who might be offended by this.)

You have said it better than I could even think of. Well done.

[ChrisTinaBruce]

You are trying to put everything and everyone in a box. Let go of YOUR insecurities and accept and judge people on their behavior and actions not appearance.

Chris Tina Bruce

Originally Posted by Interesting

i did not read the entire thread, but speaking to the thread's title, there's simply two genders.

Male
Female

all that falls in between are 'abnormalities' in sense that somewhere along the genetic coding and biochemical make up, an abnormality occurred that caused said gender to act out of line to the 'majority' or 'norm'.

[littletwink]

Originally Posted by ila

Recently there have been some comments on here which ungender the transwomen of the world. This is not something new on here, but there have never been as many comments at one time as there has been in the last week.

By ungendering I mean making statements that ciswomen are "real women" and by inference that transwomen aren't real. As transwomen are real women then one is taking away transwomen's gender by inferring that they are not real women. Still other statements have referred to ciswomen as women and females whereas in the same post transwomen have been referred as tgirls. This is just another way to ungender transwomen by inferring that transwomen are neither women nor female. The men on here claim to love/admire/want transwomen and yet statements that ungender transwomen show a great lack of respect.

I am sure that some members have made these statements without realizing how hurtful it can be. There are still others that have made such statements knowing full well what the impact is.

I would like to remind the men here to show more respect to all transwomen. Please do not refer to ciswomen as the only real women. Remember that transwomen are real women and they are female.

To put this in perspective I would ask the men to think of how they would feel if they were referred to as she or her or any other feminine term. If you are offended or feel uncomfortable or even pissed off then you are on the path to realizing how a transwoman feels when she is ungendered.

To get a better perspective on this subject I encourage you to click on the link below. It will take you to the thread Real Girls which was started by Bionca.

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=3444

When someone defines him or herself as one gender or the other, then I agree they have a right to consider themselves whatever they feel they are. I don't necessarily think that creates an obligation for anyone else to recognize a person's belief.

What makes no sense to me is this notion some put forward that a person must choose male or female and can be only one or the other. Speaking only for myself, I know that I am a male, but I also know that on some days I am very much a female, even though my physiology might not say so. Even if I derive some benefit in my mind from the labels, I do not NEED them to define who I am.

[smc]

Originally Posted by littletwink

When someone defines him or herself as one gender or the other, then I agree they have a right to consider themselves whatever they feel they are. I don't necessarily think that creates an obligation for anyone else to recognize a person's belief. ...

I could not disagree more with the statement above that I have quoted and put in bold. The right to self-determination of gender is absolutely meaningless unless we are obligated to acknowledge that the determination is iron-clad. Were I to use the word "belief" to describe to any of my trans friends their self-determination of their own gender, I would expect to be kicked in the balls -- deservedly -- as their last act before dropping me as a friend.

[ila]

Originally Posted by smc

I could not disagree more with the statement above that I have quoted and put in bold. The right to self-determination of gender is absolutely meaningless unless we are obligated to acknowledge that the determination is iron-clad. Were I to use the word "belief" to describe to any of my trans friends their self-determination of their own gender, I would expect to be kicked in the balls -- deservedly -- as their last act before dropping me as a friend.

My thoughts exactly. I couldn't have said it better.

[littletwink]

Originally Posted by smc

I could not disagree more with the statement above that I have quoted and put in bold. The right to self-determination of gender is absolutely meaningless unless we are obligated to acknowledge that the determination is iron-clad. Were I to use the word "belief" to describe to any of my trans friends their self-determination of their own gender, I would expect to be kicked in the balls -- deservedly -- as their last act before dropping me as a friend.

An individual's right to self-determination is not in any way infringed upon by another individual choosing to see things differently.

They can say "I will not respond to comments seeking to strip me of MY self-determined gender", but they cannot prohibit a person from thinking whatever it is they want to.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you're saying that there are only 2 distinct genders and I could not disagree more with the assertion that everyone fits into 1 of only 2 possible boxes.

[smc]

Originally Posted by littletwink

An individual's right to self-determination is not in any way infringed upon by another individual choosing to see things differently.

What you state with such certainty in the quote above belies a complete lack of understanding of what it means to have "rights." A person's right to something is meaningless without actuation of that right. Further, a right is an absolute; otherwise, it is also meaningless.

If you make it okay for someone to "see things differently" in that context, you are taking away the right.

Imagine if all the anti-discrimination laws that grew out of the civil rights movement in the United States were not enforced simply because the person who denied a black man entry into his restaurant said to that man, "Sure, the law says I can't deny any person the the right to eat here, but I don't consider blacks to be people, so I don't have to serve you. Sorry, but I just see things differently."

You may laugh at my analogy, but it is precisely the basis upon which blacks in the United States were denied rights for a very, very long time.

Originally Posted by littletwink

They can say "I will not respond to comments seeking to strip me of MY self-determined gender", but they cannot prohibit a person from thinking whatever it is they want to.

Now, let's extend your logic further with the analogy. As I understand it, the black man denied entry to the restaurant should simply not respond? After all, the restaurant owner, by your account, has an equal right to disbelieve that blacks are people.

Originally Posted by littletwink

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think you're saying that there are only 2 distinct genders and I could not disagree more with the assertion that everyone fits into 1 of only 2 possible boxes.

I said absolutely nothing about how many distinct genders there are in my response. Your last statement is completely irrelevant to my point.

[littletwink]

Originally Posted by smc

What you state with such certainty in the quote above belies a complete lack of understanding of what it means to have "rights." A person's right to something is meaningless without actuation of that right. Further, a right is an absolute; otherwise, it is also meaningless.

If you make it okay for someone to "see things differently" in that context, you are taking away the right.

Imagine if all the anti-discrimination laws that grew out of the civil rights movement in the United States were not enforced simply because the person who denied a black man entry into his restaurant said to that man, "Sure, the law says I can't deny any person the the right to eat here, but I don't consider blacks to be people, so I don't have to serve you. Sorry, but I just see things differently."

You may laugh at my analogy, but it is precisely the basis upon which blacks in the United States were denied rights for a very, very long time.

Now, let's extend your logic further with the analogy. As I understand it, the black man denied entry to the restaurant should simply not respond? After all, the restaurant owner, by your account, has an equal right to disbelieve that blacks are people.

I'm not comfortable with the idea of a person or group telling individuals what they must think or believe. Behavior and actions are separate from thoughts and beliefs, though. Are behaviors and actions usually predicated upon beliefs? Certainly, but while behaviors and actions can be mandated and enforced legally, thoughts and beliefs cannot.

In the case of your shopkeeper, while he may be required to accept black customers, he still has the right to view those customers as non-persons.

You wish to mandate certain language when it comes to discussing the TG community, but language alone is not a guarantee or even a requisite for understanding and understanding is not a guarantee of societal acceptance. As a member of that community myself - albeit part-time, by some definitions - I am not bothered by another person's refusal of my self-identification.

You are saying that the denial of one's gender identity by another is wrong and is offensive and in many cases, that is probably a fair interpretation. However, not every TG individual is offended and I personally do not wish to be placed in that box, nor do I think I should be chastised for my reluctance to conform.

Again, I'm ok with not being recognized as a man or woman (as the case may be!) and several of my TG friends are very much the same. Just because we may be in the minority does not mean we shouldn't be allowed to think or feel this way.

By the same token, I will not demand that a non-TG person acknowledge my gender as a function of acknowledging my personhood. I am not my gender. My depth as a person goes much deeper than that and I feel that getting hung up on my transgenderism would actually cheapen my value as a person.

Other TG persons will feel completely differently - their gender identity and acknowledgment of same is absolutely vital to their everyday existence - and I fully respect their right to feel that way.

[DgMAtrainer78]

Do most transexuals find it offensive to be refereed to as transexual? I love transexuals for being who they are. I don't see them entirely as women but as transexuals which is far better in my opinion.

[smc]

Originally Posted by DgMAtrainer78

Do most transexuals find it offensive to be refereed to as transexual? I love transexuals for being who they are. I don't see them entirely as women but as transexuals which is far better in my opinion.

Fortunately, it is not you but these women themselves who get to determine their own gender identity.

[JodieTs]

Originally Posted by DgMAtrainer78

Do most transexuals find it offensive to be refereed to as transexual? I love transexuals for being who they are. I don't see them entirely as women but as transexuals which is far better in my opinion.

It varies from person to person. and the circumstances.
Almost all want to be referred to as women as that's what we are
and it's easier for you to do so. If she wants you to call her a transsexual,
she'll tell you. (though this would be highly unlikely to occur, though the very occasional Ts women will identify as Ts rather than female)

Um, transsexual has two "s" in it.

[Tsweet]

Originally Posted by JodieTs

It varies from person to person. and the circumstances.
Almost all want to be referred to as women as that's what we are
and it's easier for you to do so. If she wants you to call her a transsexual,
she'll tell you. (though this would be highly unlikely to occur, though the very occasional Ts women will identify as Ts rather than female)

Um, transsexual has two "s" in it.

Yes I only refer to my beautiful (ts) girlfriend as a woman (as that's what she IS!) ... but occasionally she will refer to herself as a transsexual woman as she is proud of the journey she has gone through to become the gorgeous woman she is!

(Speaking of gorgeous women Jodie! Love your new avatar GREAT picture of yourself!)

[shawnx]

I did a post a few days ago and actually made a mistake of using the term real woman, it was a simple mistake and have noted not to use it anymore, at the same time, if someone does use it like i did, just simply remind them to try not to use it and not target them as a bad person like one person did with me. its a simple mistake that a lot of guys make. some tgirls dont like the term shemale. I also find it interesting that someone might find the term real woman disrespectful but yet i noticed a post with a person saying how he likes pulling a tgirls hair while fucking them in the ass , seems to me that would be more disrespectful. thanks for hearing me out.

[smc]

Originally Posted by shawnx

I did a post a few days ago and actually made a mistake of using the term real woman, it was a simple mistake and have noted not to use it anymore, at the same time, if someone does use it like i did, just simply remind them to try not to use it and not target them as a bad person like one person did with me. its a simple mistake that a lot of guys make. some tgirls dont like the term shemale. I also find it interesting that someone might find the term real woman disrespectful but yet i noticed a post with a person saying how he likes pulling a tgirls hair while fucking them in the ass , seems to me that would be more disrespectful. thanks for hearing me out.

There is a HUGE difference between the use of the term "shemale" (which is an invention of the porn industry) and the use of the term "real woman" to distinguish GGs from transwomen. In my experience with my transwomen friends, there is a HUGE difference between their reaction to the term "shemale" and their reaction to any statement that implies or states explicitly that they are less of a woman than any other woman.

Language matters. When someone ungenders, he ought to acknowledge the mistake, show his understanding of the error, and pledge to try not to do it again. What he ought not do is attack others or make excuses, because that diminishes the acknowledgment of the error and thus the importance of the acknowledgment.