[hankhavelock]

Ogryn, my friend, I allowed my self to move your answer from another thread to this one, where I believe it's more appropriate if you don't mind.

You wrote:

I couldn't agree more with you.

Aside from only one thing:

Obama.

I'm of the opinion social change must come slowly. It cannot be rushed because of loose ends and the impact it has on people. America is an extremely diverse nation. We have every type of person imaginable and ever difference imaginable found here. Perhaps more so than most nations. And it is always a battle. I believe in serving the whole, the greater good, thus the majority rules. Minorities are a secondary consideration. This does not mean I support oppressing them or denying them their fair treatment and rights. Only that any sweeping change in our society should be carefully thought out, all options and ramifications considered and then eased into. Rapid and sudden change creates unforeseen issues.

And this is my problem with the far left and Obama's of the world.

The Europeans can sit and smugly condemn my nation for being backwards and less socially progressive. Europeans are exceptionally arrogant. Yet they forget something important:

European nations are older than America. They have had the benefit of several hundred years of time to "perfect" themselves. America is a baby in comparison.

Because I believe such change requires time, logically it stands to reason America has not had the time to "perfect" itself as Europe. It's relative to how old a nation is. And the problem with the champions of this kind of change in America are immature so to speak. They often just see a problem and immediately think up a solution then they want to make this solution happen. They don't care if it steps on other groups or has effects on the equality of all in terms of rights and civil liberties. They are rash and foolhardy.

Perhaps they're hearts on in the right place. But they need to slow down and consider everything. I'll cite Obama wanting to withdraw the troops in Iraq quickly. He has failed to show he has fully thought out all considerations and possible consequences. Liberals are slightly better at this kind of change as they tend to be more logical and fair than the far left who pretty much are hot headed, overly passionate dreamers who just rush into things.

So, if you can look at a European nation and American nation in terms of a whole (let's say for the sake of it all of the nation is one person) and compare age and experience, then clearly America needs to do some growing up. But we all know the dangers of growing up too quickly.

This is how I disagree with you. Everything else you said I agree with entirely.

I reply:


This is a matter of wanting evolutionary or revolutionary change - I believe that in the case of Obama, this is STILL evolutionary change... but it is a matter that will force Americans to look deeply into their democratic hearts and find in them selves the truth they want. Isn't it finally time, that we move a bit forward - even in steps that for some may seem inappropriately large?

Shifts of paradigms are always hurtful for those who strenouosly oppose them. George Bush and his administration are the last of a generation of thinking that goes back to the Civil War and an automated way to view American patriotism as the kind of patriotism decided by raw power and a fixed set of rules as to what is right and wrong.

The world has changed - not necessarily the fundamentals of right and wrong in a democratic sense - but in the way that other issues are now coming up that we didn't before have to deal with. In this regard the old guard is no longer useful. They are so rooted in their old school mindset that their solutions are wrong for a new world.

You mention Europe - and yes, European history goes milliennia further back than Caucasian and Afro American history. How ever, let us not kid ourselves here, American morale is rooted in European tradition and now luckily with an AfroAmerican touch. The basics are not very different. That's why America and Europe are for ever connected and will probably not be able to exist without each other.

But the religious right and their out-of-date ways cannot be something that you seriously defend as morally right. And there are no other ways to bring them forward and out of their holes than to force them them to scrutinize the moral of what they are preaching. Had it been communists or muslims, you would agree with me - now it's your fellow Americans, but some of them are as backwards as the illeterates of some village in Iran...

I believe we can objectively talk about right or wrong - and I believe we can fairly accuse folks of opposing new thinking because of their angst of what this new thinking may bring with it.

I love America, I have always defended America, but in this love is also an obligation to oppose stupidity, which is the fact of the last administration. George Bush, his wife and his administration have hurt not only American but western credibility tremendously due to a failed policy pressed upon American allies with force.

It will take years to fix that - but what I experience is a joy about Barack Obama and thus a way for America (and the rest of the west) to reestablish prudent leadership and credibility in a world that is somewhat more complicated than in the days of good old Ronald Reagan, whom I - even as a bleeding heart liberal - see as one of the most important presidents in the history of your nation EVER!

That's why I believe that change is needed - if it is only a symbol of change. Barack Obama can deliver that and is light years ahead in his thinking than John McCain - btw, I actually LIKE John McCain. He's just not the the right man for the job at the time. One could hope that he'd got elected 8 years ago. Then the world would most likely have nbeen better off. He had his kicks.. now we need more dramatic change!

Peace!

H