Feared or Respected?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Is it better to be feared or respected?

I was feared, and i am respected, and i prefer to be respected a whole lot better.

Because when you are feared you are also hated, when you are respected you usually are liked.


But many people do not understand what respect is, and how it works.

First: Respect is NOT a one way thing, to get respect you HAVE TO give it, but both parties still have to work to keep it or as they say EARN it.

Second: treating someone in a polite and/or curtious way is a sign or respect, accepting people for who and what they are even if they are differnt than you is a sign of respect, trying to understand them is a sign of respect, making fun of them or putting them down ISN'T.


IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT OTHERS HAVE TO BOW DOWN TO YOU, OR YOU TO THEM, THAT IS NOT RESPECT, THAT IS DOMINANCE, BIG DIFFERENCE.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

It is good to see that in this forum, almost all the participants respect eachother even if their opinions are diametrally opposed.

Congratulation to everybody.

JohnDowe.

[Creedence]

I guess I might be considered a bit odd because I'm going to choose Fear for this question.

Respect and being admired is a great thing and it's noble to live well and try to earn it from others by being kind and virtuous.

Fear is stronger then respect. I choose Fear. I wouldn't be betrayed if I was feared and I wouldn't be questioned.

It's simpler.

But would I choose another emotion over Fear? Of course.

Which leads me to ask a question to add-on.

Is being loved stronger then being feared or respected?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

You would be betrayed in a minute if they were confronted by something they feared more.

Loved over feared, sure, loved over respected, couldn't realy choose, loved but not respected? I don't think so, you need both.

Another example:

You get hit by a car, hit and run, you are close to dying, people in nearby houses see you, but you can't see them.

Feared: reaction: let him die he won't terrorize us anymore.

Respected: reaction: Oh, no, call 911, they come to you, the ambulance is on the way, anything we can do to help you?

Still prefer feared?

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I can't believe that nobody exept Creesence had anything to say about this, which is one of the leading cause of all inter-racial problems today, and most other intra-racial problems, where everybody wants to be respected but they don't understand what respect is, and all too often ends in bloodshed.

I do not request you to ansewer, I DEMAND IT.

JohnDowe.

[The Conquistador]

Fear and respect can go hand in hand. If you respect someone, you would be afraid to wrong them or dissappoint them in any way. So while you do fear them, it is a fear that can be healthy and beneficial to both. However, if you are talking about irrational fear, like someone threatening you with the prospect of death, I will have to go with respect instead. :respect:

[johndowe]

Hi there.

8 visitors and only 1 post, guys (and girls) get with the program.

Haven't you been disrespected, or were afraid of an asshole that liked to be feared?

Did you like it?

Well speak up, or maby i should say squeek up like little mice?

I guess Bionca was right when she said "the cowards we date".

So are you pissed enough to ansewer?

But of course i would have prefered not to have to taunt you into posting, but whatever works i guess.

Also if you do amass the courage to post, try to keep on subject and address the ptoblem, and realise that i only taunted you to try to get some ideas about the miss-information about the respect and fear problem, that often ends up killing our youth.

JohnDowe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

You speak of the problems facing our youth. The root of the problem with them is that they don't learn what the word respect really means in school.

Respect is a feeling of esteem and honor for another; that is - you admire positive traits in that person. A feeling of very deep respect is veneration which includes love and reverance.

So where did these kids get the wrong idea? They have been taught that respect is coupled with fear. They are told to respect their teachers, their parents, their elders, the police, etc. Not because these people are worthy of respect, but because they are in positions of authority, and the youth are in a subordinate position - one of fear of punishment. So they are mixed up about the difference in respect for someone as a person and respect for a position of authority that someone holds.

It's almost as if we need another word for respect as applied to those in authority. How about fearspect?

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I am waiting for more replies and on Tuesday Sept. 22nd i will ansewer all, and thank you to all that have posted.

Jenae you do have good arguments.
And so do you Mr. angry.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Come on post, don't be shy.

JohnDowe.

[Creedence]

Hi there.

You would be betrayed in a minute if they were confronted by something they feared more.

Loved over feared, sure, loved over respected, couldn't realy choose, loved but not respected? I don't think so, you need both.

Another example:

You get hit by a car, hit and run, you are close to dying, people in nearby houses see you, but you can't see them.

Feared: reaction: let him die he won't terrorize us anymore.

Respected: reaction: Oh, no, call 911, they come to you, the ambulance is on the way, anything we can do to help you?

Still prefer feared?

JohnDowe.

Yes actually I would still prefer feared because you're under the impression that everyone would hate me.

I wouldn't treat everyone I know like a tyrant I would have a group of people who I care about and they care about me.

You said I need both but originally you mentioned I had to choose one or the other.

If I'm loved I'm vulnerable to many things such as betrayal and people thinking that while I'm compassionate I am also weak for it.

I would choose Love if I could but you asked to be feared or respected and you don't need to be loved to respected.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

It isn't the 22nd yet, keep posting.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Only one day to go, come on POST, it ain't that hard, and you'll feel good that you did.

JohnDowe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Right back at ya!!! I think it is high time you posted some pics of yourself. And even if you didn't get any pics of the little grey guys, I'll bet you have some of yourself. So let's see them. I saw where you stated that you are a CD and nearly every CD has to take pics of themselves; it is almost an integral part of the scene. Hell, if this F2m Tboy?? had the balls to post self pics, anybody should.

http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?p=103329#post103329

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I posted this @ http://forum.transladyboy.com/showthread.php?t=6668&page=2

"I know this is off subject, but...

Jenae, much better exposure, you see what constructive criticism can do, the exposure is great, your face is in a normal human color, good job.

I guess people are starting to realise that I AM ALWAYS RIGHT ! (Althoug mostly true, it is a joke)"

Self pics, ok...

128412

128413

Made those pics with webcam i was installing on a freind's cpu and didn't do any more after i saw them, i was pressed for time and did a quick change, only to test the cam, couldn't get myself to delete then though.

So have a good laugh, and lets get this over with.

JohnDowe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

Nope, no way! Nothing to laugh about! :respect::respect::respect:
unless you were saying that you left the pics on your friends computer.?? Now that would be funny if the pics were a complete surprise to the friend.:yes:

Black is my favorite color for the vinyl stuff too. Then comes red. Looks like stiletto heels, 5 or 6 inch? All in all, a pretty effective looking Dom Mistress outfit.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Thank you Jenae, you ARE too kind, and the heels 5.5" measured them with a square, the proper way to measure heels.

It was on my cpu and if it were on my freind's it wouldn't have been a surprise, i told him and his g/f, because i wanted to, i wasn't caught.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

First we have to define what respect is and what fear is.

Fear is NOT respect, repect is not fear.

To get respect you HAVE TO give it, but it doesn't stop there, you then have to earn it and so does the other person you are dealing with, if you don't you lose their respect, and getting it back is VERY difficult.

Respect doesn't mean you have to let some one you respect do something that you know is wrong, you interviene, and tell them they are wrong, if they respect you and themselves they will see that they were wrong and you will have gainned more respect from them, but you don't have to keep score, then you would lose respect.

It's like giving to a charity, some do it to help out, and do it anonimously, there are some that do it to make them selves look rich or generous, which most people see through anyway, they did give but for all the wrong reasons, their donation will still help, but it is hypocritical non the less, and in a way it is disrespectfull to those that are in their viscinity, those who can't give and those who gave out of the kindness of their heart, it "cheapens" their efforts, they also makes themselves look petty.


Respect is treating others as you would like them to treat you, if you do so, they should treat you the same way, because you respected them, they should yespect you back, but of course there are assholes everywhere that will not respect you back, there is no rule that sais that you have to accept dis-respect you can and should let them know that they did dis-respect you, and if he(genericly speaking) is anything close to normal, he should appologize and you would have gainned respect for respecting yourself AND not accepting to be dis-respected, but there are some people that are as close to being past redemtion as humanly possible and will go as far as to beat you up because you stood up for yourself, gang members are an example, and in those cirles only the "leader" is "respected" or more precisely feared, what he sais is law and everything he does is accepted, not so for the others, he is allowed to have sex with any of the member's g/f's but NO ONE better touch his g/f or they will be dealt with most severely, there is absolutely NO RESPECT in these gangs, only fear, threats and dis-respect, it is not a healthy environnement to live in, and it breads more haterd, violence and dis-respect as it grows, it is like a disease.


And as Yoda said:

Once you go down to the dark side, forever it will consume you.


Yes it was a movie, but it doesn't diminish the thruth of it!


Fear is a bad thing, almost evil, because the difference between bad and evil is intent, if you kill someone it is a bad thing, but if you hated him and you did it purposefully, then it IS an evil act, and one evil act breads another, and another...



I remember when i was 17 or so i was in colege, i lived in Montreal, my new freinds and study group lived on the south shore (Longueuil), so i had to go home after we were done, i would take 1 of 2 routes, depending on the time, the first my freinds would walk me to the bus stop, if it was before 11:30 i would stay to the end of line to the Metro (subway), and get out right next to where i lived, but if it was later then i'd have to get off in a secluded area and wait about 15-20 minutes for another bus, and walk a while to get home, i usually took the second.

One time there were 4 guys that were a bit drunk, and were looking for trouble, i saw them, but didn't react to them, i was looking for the bus, then the guys were all around me one on each side and one in back and the "leader" in front of me, then with the back of his hand hits me on the upper chest, not as an attack but as an ivasion of my space, and said: (translated from french) "Hey dude what time is it?"

-PAUSE-

The guy disrespected me by invading my space and touching me, they were looking for trouble, why else would they be all around me like that? So what should i do?

Tell them the time? Then what; that's a nice watch, give it to me, i refuse i get beat-up. No thanks.

I could have attacked, and hit two but the two other would have gotten me, then all four would have beaten me real bad, bad plan.


-RESUME-

I slowly looked at where he touched me and stared him down, being a bit drunk, he didn't get it yet, and hit/touched me again and asked what time it was, again, again i looked where he touched me and stared him down, after a bit, he was getting nervous, and so were his freinds, i was too but they were more nervous than me AND i made a point of NOT showing that i was nervous, and one of them, broke ranks and took the "leader" away and said "this guy's dangerous", and they left, and THEN i told them what time it was as a fuck you thing, and the leader was glad the guy broke rank and took him off of me.

What happened there, was that they dis-respected me and wanted to get into a fight that i had little chance of winning, but I DIDN'T let them get away with dis-respect me, and i didn't play their game, because they knew how to play their game, probably much better than me, so i played MY game, and i won, i had kept my self respect and they had a bit of respect for me but alot more fear, in this case it was inevitable, and a good thing, and i had intimidated them, four against one and they were the ones intimidated, who knew?


When you are feared, you have to mantain that fear, and you HAVE TO do some bad things to make sure you still are feared, that's a lot of work, while if you are respected all you have to do is smile at people say hello, and treat them kindly, wow, and you don't even need a gun.

Excuse the sarcasm, but it did bring the point home a bit.

And fear is a fickel thing, you do one little thing that makes you look weak or not worthy of beeing feared, and all those thing you did to be feared, shot to hell, in that instant, that's a lot of pressure to live under on a constant basis.


Respecting someone is such a simple thing that it is misunderstood because of it's symplicity, some think that to be respected is everybody bowing down to them, well if you are a good and fair king or you have ascended to such a level that people are in awe of you, it is, but otherwise it is not, that is
dominance, a close relative of fear, respect is aknoledging people, treating them as fellow humans, in a kind and caring way, helping them when they need help, instesd of laughing at them, saying a kind word when they are in a bad mood, not biting the head off the one that offers a kind word when you are in a bad mood, saying thank you to the one that helped you, common curtasy and decency, you can't beat someone into respecting you, you HAVE to respect them, and yourself, then they may respect you, but keep in mind that your past with them ALWAYS follows you (with them and thier freinsd), and it may take some time for someone to respect you if you did-respected them first, they may very well think that you aren't sincere, and it will be hard to re-earn the respect you lost.


The gang problem is a BIG one, and born of dis-respect, as children we are told to respect elders, the clerics, the police, but some times these people aren't worthy of respect, they are human after all, and none of us are perfect and above reproach, and they slander themselves and the station they represent, and some abuse their authority, and those who suffer at their hands soon get fed up and want to do something about it and the problem escalates to the pointhere it is now, the problem isn't insurmountable but it will get worse before it will get better, Rome wasn't built in a day, neither was this problem it started decades ago, with segregation in the US, the hollocaust in world war 2, the Corean war, the cold war, the neighbour's dog that was killed because it barked all the time, the cops that harrased the kids that were still in the park after it's closing, the kids that were still in the park after it's closing, etc, dis-respectfull actions always have consequences, some minor some not, actions that would have been better handled through discussion or diplomacy, without violence and vindictiveness, without prejudice, but human nature is not always good and problems arise that aren't addressed end up festering over time and the results are usually not good.


I have a neighbour that i have a good respectfull relationship with, but because of our races (him black, me white) sometimes we get into mis-understandings, but when we do we talk about it and resolve the problem and often we end up smiling thinking how we mis-interpreted eachother's ideas but in the end we are freinds, when we will move i doubt we will keep in touch but we are freinds at the moment, but the important thing is that we respect eachother and when there is a problem we talk about it and solve it instead of yelling and threatening etc.


I will stop now, this is long enough, i will post some more later.

For more info ans the fefinition of respect you can go: http://eqi.org/respect.htm


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Fear and respect can go hand in hand. If you respect someone, you would be afraid to wrong them or dissappoint them in any way. So while you do fear them, it is a fear that can be healthy and beneficial to both. However, if you are talking about irrational fear, like someone threatening you with the prospect of death, I will have to go with respect instead. :respect:

Hi there.

I do respect many people, and i don't like to disappoint them, i don't want to wrong them, not because i'm afraid but because i respect them and myself, fear has it's place, in life and death situations, but to live in fear, not a life for me, i'm not used to taking shit from anyone, not my bosses, not my g/f's not my sister, not my dad, my mom did give me shit for a good 20-30 minutes once, for something i did but had FIXED, and she DID pay the price and never crossed me again, no i didn't hit her, i am very freindly, but i do not accept dis-respect from anyone, period.

And as for the respect fear thing, it seems to me that the more you respect someone the less you fear them, and the more you fear them the less you respect them, but the less fear on the respect is not that you'd flip them out, but you respect them back and treat them right as they treat you.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Yes actually I would still prefer feared because you're under the impression that everyone would hate me.

I wouldn't treat everyone I know like a tyrant I would have a group of people who I care about and they care about me.

You said I need both but originally you mentioned I had to choose one or the other.

If I'm loved I'm vulnerable to many things such as betrayal and people thinking that while I'm compassionate I am also weak for it.

I would choose Love if I could but you asked to be feared or respected and you don't need to be loved to respected.

Hi there.

Re-read my post, you will see that i didn't say both respect and fear, i did say love and respect, not the same thing.

If you are loved, and you are vulnerable, and compassionate, vulnerable in love is NOT a bad thing, it means you truely love, trust and respect your lover, it is very far from beeing a weakness, being compassionate, is a VIRTUE, a strength and not a weakness, those who think that it is a weakness are fools that do not understand life and respect.

Love without respect canot flourish, it is choked out of existance by the lack of a good respectfull understanding of each of the parties.

You seem to see things from an adversarial point of view, not everybody is out to get you, most people are good and decent, lower your deflector shields once in a while and take the time to smell the roses, you may like what you see.

And if everybody in your viscinity is out to get you, and everybody else, get the heck out of there, that is NOT NORMAL, it is unhealthy for you and all that participate.

Also if you are feared outside of your home/entourage, it WILL come back to you and your entourage sooner or later, usually sooner, because of what you have to do to keep the fear fresh in those that fear you, and one day someone of your entourage will get you mad, and you will act the same way you have with the others that you want to frighten.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

You speak of the problems facing our youth. The root of the problem with them is that they don't learn what the word respect really means in school.

Respect is a feeling of esteem and honor for another; that is - you admire positive traits in that person. A feeling of very deep respect is veneration which includes love and reverance.

So where did these kids get the wrong idea? They have been taught that respect is coupled with fear. They are told to respect their teachers, their parents, their elders, the police, etc. Not because these people are worthy of respect, but because they are in positions of authority, and the youth are in a subordinate position - one of fear of punishment. So they are mixed up about the difference in respect for someone as a person and respect for a position of authority that someone holds.

It's almost as if we need another word for respect as applied to those in authority. How about fearspect?

Hi there.

I hope the war axe is burried, it is on my end.

Yes it's true the definition is not out there, and it needs to get out.

You bring up a good point an new word for listening to authority figures is indeed needed, since using the word respect causes confusion, listen to and mind might be good, but still i'm not sure how to call it.

JohnDowe.

[aw9725]

In graduate school, I attended a seminar on leadership taught by Lt. General Dave Palmer (one-time commandant of West Point). The issue of "Fear or Respect" came up and the consensus was that it depends on the situation. If one is commanding troops in battle, there is no room for an "intellectual discussion"--orders must be obeyed. If one is an "ER" or "OR" doctor, immediate "life and death" decisions must be made--no time for discussion. If one is a CEO of a company in trouble--hard decisions must be made--for better or for worse. If one is the President of the US and the "3 AM phone call" comes... same thing.

In all of the examples above, I'm sure the General, Doctor, CEO, and President would prefer to be "respected." Given the immediacy and gravity of the situation however, there is not time to worry about it. If they must be "feared" to accomplish what must be done, then so be it.

Personally, in my own career I choose "respect." I can't imagine any case where I would want or need to have my colleagues or students "fear" me. In fact, "fear" would be counterproductive in that it would limit open discussion and inquiry.

Perhaps the best treatise on "fear and love (respect)" was written almost 500 years ago...

"Upon this a question arises: whether it be better to be loved than feared or feared than loved? It may be answered that one should wish to be both, but, because it is difficult to unite them in one person, is much safer to be feared than loved, when, of the two, either must be dispensed with. Because this is to be asserted in general of men, that they are ungrateful, fickle, false, cowardly, covetous, and as long as you succeed they are yours entirely; they will offer you their blood, property, life and children, as is said above, when the need is far distant; but when it approaches they turn against you. And that prince who, relying entirely on their promises, has neglected other precautions, is ruined; because friendships that are obtained by payments, and not by greatness or nobility of mind, may indeed be earned, but they are not secured, and in time of need cannot be relied upon; and men have less scruple in offending one who is beloved than one who is feared, for love is preserved by the link of obligation which, owing to the baseness of men, is broken at every opportunity for their advantage; but fear preserves you by a dread of punishment which never fails.

Nevertheless a prince ought to inspire fear in such a way that, if he does not win love, he avoids hatred; because he can endure very well being feared whilst he is not hated, which will always be as long as he abstains from the property of his citizens and subjects and from their women. But when it is necessary for him to proceed against the life of someone, he must do it on proper justification and for manifest cause, but above all things he must keep his hands off the property of others, because men more quickly forget the death of their father than the loss of their patrimony. Besides, pretexts for taking away the property are never wanting; for he who has once begun to live by robbery will always find pretexts for seizing what belongs to others; but reasons for taking life, on the contrary, are more difficult to find and sooner lapse. But when a prince is with his army, and has under control a multitude of soldiers, then it is quite necessary for him to disregard the reputation of cruelty, for without it he would never hold his army united or disposed to its duties."

Returning to the question of being feared or loved, I come to the conclusion that, men loving according to their own will and fearing according to that of the prince, a wise prince should establish himself on that which is in his own control and not in that of others; he must endeavour only to avoid hatred, as is noted."

Nicolo Machiavelli -- "The Prince"

[DSL]

I was wondering how can we have fear in a forum? i do have respect for
others in here no doubt about that but to have fear,
i have no fear... or any where outside either.

what i wanted to know is can we have fear in a forum?

[aw9725]

I see that you are all seeking a more “personal” definition of “respect vs. fear.” I think it is a great question worthy of discussion. My only problem with it here is that I find it hard to discuss things like this online without actually knowing the participants. Also, it may be slightly “off topic” for this forum. I’d much rather talk about “Kelly Shore” or “Camila Saenz”… :)

Many years before I became a "respected" Associate Professor--back in high school and college I played football, rode a motorcycle, listened to Metallica, and was considered something of a “badass” or "hooligan." I was the guy who was “voted most likely to succeed or end up on the 10 most wanted list.” LOL The last time I got into a fight and “beat the shit” out of someone was my Freshman year of college and fortunately for me it was considered “self defense.”

Somewhere along the way I “grew up” and focused my energies on more “productive” endeavors like studying hard, thinking about a career other than in the NFL, being a good husband, etc. Our society typically doesn’t condone violence as a solution to personal disagreements and “kicking someone’s ass” can more often than not, land you in jail. Where you will get lots of “love and respect” from your fellow inmates! LOL

My reaction to someone’s “in your face” response now would be to laugh and walk away. Where it goes from there is up to the other person. I have never had anyone pursue it further. Kind of like “flipping the bird” to someone while driving. Do you really want to “kill” the other driver? There was a well publicized “road rage” incident here just a few weeks ago. The driver who felt “disrespected” is now facing his day in court. Again, years of “love and respect” from your new “cellmates.”

The clear exception would be if someone posed an immediate threat to myself or my family. That is another matter entirely and involves principles of “self defense.” If you want to read a great book on the issues involved in using deadly force, I suggest “In the Gravest Extreme” by Massad Ayoob.

Peace (and Respect)… :cool:

[johndowe]

Hi there.

In the example of the general, the ceo and the doc, if the respect is already established, the orders issued might be ill recieved by the subordinates, but will probably be forgiven considering the urgency of the situation, so the abruptness is understandable and almost expected, once they come face to face with the problem.

As for love and respect, i'm not sure i agree with all of it but there are points of merit, irregardless how great the man was, nobody is perfect, not even me, but, i will meditate on this.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

I was wondering how can we have fear in a forum? i do have respect for
others in here no doubt about that but to have fear,
i have no fear... or any where outside either.

what i wanted to know is can we have fear in a forum?

Hi there.

Well, not to sound like a know it all, but it is possible but not really probable, the only fear i can see as possible is if someone disclosed a guarded secret and would be afraid of being discovered, that kind of thing, intimidations might be possible but, one can always close the window and never come back, which doesn't necesarily imply fear, but maby anoyance?

No fear outside the forum in the real world? I underatand that if you don't cross people they shouldn't cross you, and if you respect everybody they should respect you back, but there are assholes and gangs out there, and they usually "don't take prisonners", (the gangs) so i don't know how to put this any better than this; are you oblivious to what is happening around you?

Have you read my LOOONG post in this thread, when i said i was nervous when the 4 guys were around me it was fear that made me nervous and them too, so i am not without fear and never pretended to be, and when i am in a confrontation there is almost always at least a little bit of fear, the thing is to not show your fear and to control it so it doesn't debilitate you, but no fear at all ever? I am doubtfull, even if you do not get into confrontations, life can get scary at times.

JohnDowe.

[aw9725]

To all my friends on this forum (this includes you too JohnDowe!):

I find these conversations quite interesting and enjoyable but it would be nice to know a little bit more about some of you. I really am the guy in the picture and yes, all of the stuff I've listed and talked about in my posts is true. If I were lying, I would've said I really am Hugh Jackman and married to Kelly Shore (in my dreams!), and in my spare time I am Director of NASA, and Obama's top security adviser! Oh, and I taught Tom Brady everything he knows about playing quaterback! LOL!

Seriously, I completely understand why anyone would be reluctant to share and I respect :respect: each and everyone's reasons. Just would be interested in knowing more about you. For what it's worth, this has been a great place to hang out and I look forward to coming here each day for whatever reasons.

Later... ;)

[aw9725]

I remember when i was 17 or so i was in colege, i lived in Montreal, my new freinds and study group lived on the south shore (Longueuil), so i had to go home after we were done, i would take 1 of 2 routes, depending on the time, the first my freinds would walk me to the bus stop, if it was before 11:30 i would stay to the end of line to the Metro (subway), and get out right next to where i lived, but if it was later then i'd have to get off in a secluded area and wait about 15-20 minutes for another bus, and walk a while to get home, i usually took the second.

One time there were 4 guys that were a bit drunk, and were looking for trouble, i saw them, but didn't react to them, i was looking for the bus, then the guys were all around me one on each side and one in back and the "leader" in front of me, then with the back of his hand hits me on the upper chest, not as an attack but as an ivasion of my space, and said: (translated from french) "Hey dude what time is it?"

-PAUSE-

The guy disrespected me by invading my space and touching me, they were looking for trouble, why else would they be all around me like that? So what should i do?

Tell them the time? Then what; that's a nice watch, give it to me, i refuse i get beat-up. No thanks.

I could have attacked, and hit two but the two other would have gotten me, then all four would have beaten me real bad, bad plan.


-RESUME-

I slowly looked at where he touched me and stared him down, being a bit drunk, he didn't get it yet, and hit/touched me again and asked what time it was, again, again i looked where he touched me and stared him down, after a bit, he was getting nervous, and so were his freinds, i was too but they were more nervous than me AND i made a point of NOT showing that i was nervous, and one of them, broke ranks and took the "leader" away and said "this guy's dangerous", and they left, and THEN i told them what time it was as a fuck you thing, and the leader was glad the guy broke rank and took him off of me.

What happened there, was that they dis-respected me and wanted to get into a fight that i had little chance of winning, but I DIDN'T let them get away with dis-respect me, and i didn't play their game, because they knew how to play their game, probably much better than me, so i played MY game, and i won, i had kept my self respect and they had a bit of respect for me but alot more fear, in this case it was inevitable, and a good thing, and i had intimidated them, four against one and they were the ones intimidated, who knew?


JohnDowe, I went back and re-read your earlier post about the 4 guys. For what it's worth, I think you handled it well and with courage. :respect:

[aw9725]

I was thinking about this "thread" some more and I detect an underlying current...

JohnDowe and others have raised some valid and important issues regarding standing up for yourself. No one should have to live in fear. I think working out, taking Karate lessons, or even "carrying" (if it's legal where you live--and you know how to use a firearm--you DON’T want to shoot yourself!) are all acceptable to the alternative. Even if you never (hopefully) have to use anything that you learned--you will have more confidence in yourself.

Being aware of one's surroundings, hanging out in groups, etc. are also means to discourage attackers. Cell phones have helped too, I believe. But you know all of this.

I'm not too worried about myself, but when I go downtown I am usually "more aware" of my surroundings than say--when I am at home.

On a lighter note, the last time I got my ass kicked was against Ohio State many years ago. LOL! They are known for having really BIG offensive linemen. Ever hear of Orlando Pace?

Later... :cool:

[suebone]

Hi there.

Is it better to be feared or respected?

I was feared, and i am respected, and i prefer to be respected a whole lot better.

Because when you are feared you are also hated, when you are respected you usually are liked.


But many people do not understand what respect is, and how it works.

First: Respect is NOT a one way thing, to get respect you HAVE TO give it, but both parties still have to work to keep it or as they say EARN it.

Second: treating someone in a polite and/or curtious way is a sign or respect, accepting people for who and what they are even if they are differnt than you is a sign of respect, trying to understand them is a sign of respect, making fun of them or putting them down ISN'T.


IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT OTHERS HAVE TO BOW DOWN TO YOU, OR YOU TO THEM, THAT IS NOT RESPECT, THAT IS DOMINANCE, BIG DIFFERENCE.

JohnDowe.

John; I only get respect when I use my sister's ID.(we allways pass off as twins ,she is my best frend) The fear comes out when other's expect to much of me.;;;;;sue b:respect:

[johndowe]

Hi there.

SUE, could you elaborate, plz?

JohnDowe.

[suebone]

came out in 1999.a few years in a bad situation.my sister pulled me out of. this state takes for ever to change one's ID from M to F. the fear facter is how people treat me for who i am .

[johndowe]

John; I only get respect when I use my sister's ID.(we allways pass off as twins ,she is my best frend) The fear comes out when other's expect to much of me.;;;;;sue b
came out in 1999.a few years in a bad situation.my sister pulled me out of. this state takes for ever to change one's ID from M to F. the fear facter is how people treat me for who i am .

Hi there.

Again Sue, more info, one line is not enough, elaborate, look at my posts, very LOOOOONNNNNG, explain the situation, your feelings, beeing a girl, it shouldn't hard (ha,ha,ha).

If you can pass as your twin sister, you must be quite cute and girly, good for you, and she's your best freind, i'm sure she helped you with make-up clothes etc, not every tgirl is so lucky, not to say your life is perfect, but it seems to have at least some good points.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

I tought about "The Prince" Machiavelli, and i agree with his assessment of the respect, fear, love, cruelty and hate, in relation to beeing a ruler, it was very astute of him.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Yes, AW9725, i think i handled that situation pretty well, and THANK YOU for saying so.

But, one thing i find deplorable, and those who do it don't know better, unfortunately.

What i refer to is that some people who have never been in such a situation, and say "I would've done this", "I would've done that" which is all good and fine for bar talk, but in their little "I would've..." senarios, there is absolutely no possibility of them getting hurt in any way, as if they were Superman or something, which in the real event, there was a very real possibility of getting hurt and if you do the wrong thing, you can get hurt, sometimes badly, also your nerves are acting up, it just doesn't compare to their "I would've" senarios.

I tried to make them undesrtand but i would have better results talking to a tree, because they are so sure of their assumed responses that they ingnore anything anybody says about the lack of realism of their senarios.

Any way, i didn't start off wanting to discuss this, it just popped in my mind.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Aw9725, i think you need to check your avatar, it's you in the pic? your avatar is a motorcycle!


I use the JohnDowe (read John Doe) handle because when i joined, i didn't know what this forum was all about, all i was interested in at the time was the toon ts pics.


My name is Peter, i am 50yo, TV, pics in this thread, was maried, divorced, because wife couldn't win most arguements, mostly, never hit her.

Got into and out of many sticky situations, when i was younger, i was and still am quite sarcastic at times, got into a few fights, won most, intimidated some guys that tought they were unintimidatable, didn't have that many g/f's never had a tgirl sexual encounter yet, and i am a bit of a joker at times, but rarely dis-respectfull, only dis-respectfull when i get dis-respected, very rarely take shit from anyone, i prefer to be freindly, but it isn't always up to me.

I work at home, i am a PC tech, and offer my services to members fo this forum, i am quite outspoken, and i can come across as agressive even if i don't mean to, i like to do my own thing and public opinion is not a great consern of mine.

I usually give freely, don't look for thanks, i do want to know if what i did or said helped though.

JohnDowe.

[aw9725]

Hi there.

Aw9725, i think you need to check your avatar, it's you in the pic? your avatar is a motorcycle!



Peter,

Well actually I am "Optimus Prime's" little brother. I sometimes transform into a motorcycle... :cool:

Seriously, I meant my "profile" pic. You should be able to see it if you are logged in. I was born and raised in Detroit, Michigan, managed to acquire far too much formal education, and have taught at a large university somewhere in the mid-western USA for the last ten years or so. I was married for almost 15 years and recently divorced. My areas of teaching include Operations Management and Quantitative Methods. And yes, I am into things like motorcycles, fast cars, and trucks. You can find some of my current and former "toys" in some of my other postings.

I have enjoyed reading your posts. I appreciate your sense of humor and irony. This forum has been both fun and educational for me as I have sought to learn more about myself.

Take care,

"Andrew"

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Well, Andrew Prime, it's nice to meet you...

But seriously, i also enjoyed your posts, especially the Prince one, it got me thinking, outch!

When i started this thread, i didn't realy have a good idea what i wanted out of it other then getting other peoples' pespective, and then i saw a movie called "Freedom Writers" that touched this subject and i shifted the direstion of the thread, and i was more interested in the responces than in the begining, and some of the posts were like questions so i ansewered them to the best of my abbilities.

I am not an expert in psychology nor am i an expert on human nature, (both are similar but there are differences) but i have had an interesting life, so i believe that can ansewer the questions posed here with a certain degree of accuracy, but i know that i am human and i don't have ALL the ansewers, the only ones that have all the ansewers didn't ask themselves all the questions.

Also, in real life i am very good at sizing people up, but when i started posting in this forum i didn't get that sizing up thing and it tought me about how other that can't size people as i could, saw things and people, and it was and still is an interesting experience.

JohnDowe.

[suebone]

Hi there.

Again Sue, more info, one line is not enough, elaborate, look at my posts, very LOOOOONNNNNG, explain the situation, your feelings, beeing a girl, it shouldn't hard (ha,ha,ha).

If you can pass as your twin sister, you must be quite cute and girly, good for you, and she's your best freind, i'm sure she helped you with make-up clothes etc, not every tgirl is so lucky, not to say your life is perfect, but it seems to have at least some good points.

JohnDowe.

A few years after I came out as a M2F I was attacked. Now it takes me along time to trust someone.
Like I was saying my sister is everything to me now.I owe my life to her. she is a year older than me.
I will be posting a picture of me sometime later. I want to be in stealth mode you now. Can't be to explicated about me.
Is this ok? Peter,:respect:

[johndowe]

Hi there.

When i told you to elaborate, i tought you had a question about respect and you weren't stating it properly, since many of the other posts were questions about respect, and i tried to ansewer them to the best of my abbilities.

But it seems you just wanted to state what happened to you, well then it's fine by me, i wasn't trying to pry, i just tought you had problems expressing your question.

By your posts, you seem like a realy girly girl, fragile even, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but it does leave you "open for attack" as it were, and some unsavory people can and apparently have taken advantage of that, the problem is not you, but them, they are vile people, and as such do vile things.

The thing is to get respect you have to give respect, and you then have to work at earning the respect that was first given freely, and so does the othe peraon(s) you are dealing with, but...

But, if they don't respect you, you have to stand up for yourself, i know it is easier said than done, i am a male 6' tall 180# when i ran into the 4 guys, if i would have been 5'4" 100# tgirl, i would have to have handled the situation very differently, how? To be honest i don't know.

If i see a pisse-off girl, i don't see her as a threat, very few women know how to fight, and are usually not going to attack a guy no matter how mad they are, but if i see a pissed-off guy, i percieve him as a possible threat, and i know how to take care of myself, within reason of course.

But then again, you dont have to be King Kong to intimidate someone, i've seen a petite little girl intimidate a BIG guy once, it was funny in a way, but she didn't take his shit and did it VERY well, i had alot of respect for that little girl, she didn't let her small stature prevent her form standing up to the much bugger guy that was maligning her, if it got physical, he would have torn her to shreads, but she didn't let it go that far, i'm sure she was at least a bit afraid, but she stood up for herself non the less, and one thing she did was that no matter how afraid she was she DIDN'T let it show.

As you notice i don't have all the ansewers, but as far as i'm conserned, to live in fear is no life at all, and sometimes you have to stan-up for yourself, because no one can do it for you, your sister can help you, and she can stand up for herself, but only you can stand-up for yourself, when she helps you and stands up for you, she is in effect standing up for herself and you, and she's the one that gets the respect, not you, you will only be safe from them when she is with you.

Another important point is knowing when to stand-up for yourself and when to let things slide, you should never fight a battle you can avoid AND have no chance of winning, and even if someone makes you the target af a slightly malingnate joke, you can let it pass, but not if they do it to taunt you.


Also, if you feel confortable about posting a pic or two, i would like to see you and your TWIN sister togather, since she is your best freind, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

JohnDowe (Peter).

[johndowe]

Hi there.

About the "respect" autority, (Jenae) i believe the schools should teach about respect and to "listen" to figures of autority, but, somehow i don't thust them to do a good job on the later, since they are in a position of autority and may very well seem hypocritical while explaining it.

JohnDowe, (Peter).

[suebone]

Hi there.

When i told you to elaborate, i tought you had a question about respect and you weren't stating it properly, since many of the other posts were questions about respect, and i tried to ansewer them to the best of my abbilities.

But it seems you just wanted to state what happened to you, well then it's fine by me, i wasn't trying to pry, i just tought you had problems expressing your question.

By your posts, you seem like a realy girly girl, fragile even, which isn't a bad thing in itself, but it does leave you "open for attack" as it were, and some unsavory people can and apparently have taken advantage of that, the problem is not you, but them, they are vile people, and as such do vile things.

The thing is to get respect you have to give respect, and you then have to work at earning the respect that was first given freely, and so does the othe peraon(s) you are dealing with, but...

But, if they don't respect you, you have to stand up for yourself, i know it is easier said than done, i am a male 6' tall 180# when i ran into the 4 guys, if i would have been 5'4" 100# tgirl, i would have to have handled the situation very differently, how? To be honest i don't know.

If i see a pisse-off girl, i don't see her as a threat, very few women know how to fight, and are usually not going to attack a guy no matter how mad they are, but if i see a pissed-off guy, i percieve him as a possible threat, and i know how to take care of myself, within reason of course.

But then again, you dont have to be King Kong to intimidate someone, i've seen a petite little girl intimidate a BIG guy once, it was funny in a way, but she didn't take his shit and did it VERY well, i had alot of respect for that little girl, she didn't let her small stature prevent her form standing up to the much bugger guy that was maligning her, if it got physical, he would have torn her to shreads, but she didn't let it go that far, i'm sure she was at least a bit afraid, but she stood up for herself non the less, and one thing she did was that no matter how afraid she was she DIDN'T let it show.

As you notice i don't have all the ansewers, but as far as i'm conserned, to live in fear is no life at all, and sometimes you have to stan-up for yourself, because no one can do it for you, your sister can help you, and she can stand up for herself, but only you can stand-up for yourself, when she helps you and stands up for you, she is in effect standing up for herself and you, and she's the one that gets the respect, not you, you will only be safe from them when she is with you.

Another important point is knowing when to stand-up for yourself and when to let things slide, you should never fight a battle you can avoid AND have no chance of winning, and even if someone makes you the target af a slightly malingnate joke, you can let it pass, but not if they do it to taunt you.


Also, if you feel confortable about posting a pic or two, i would like to see you and your TWIN sister togather, since she is your best freind, but you don't have to if you don't want to.

JohnDowe (Peter).

Peter, I have the fear/respect part down,and will be taking the rest of it to your Battered women post ;Thanks sue b:kiss:

[johndowe]

Hi there.

TWO THINGS THAT I FORGOT TO DO ON THE 22nd...

I appologise for taunting you all.

AND THANK YOU, TO ALL THAT HAVE POSTED.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

More about respect.

If a guy gets picked on by others, and is beeing bullied, then he gets a gun.

Asked, he will say: I didn't get any respect before, now i do.

But is it respect?

No!

The reason he is no longer gets picked on is because he has a gun, and the guys that picked on him don't want to get shot, but if he lost the gun and they knew it he would realy get it, so where's the respect?

When you dis-respect some one, you also dis-respect yourself, you belittle your self, you also loose respect from those who see you dis-respecting others.

Earning respect is very easy, if you are a decent human beeing, you treat others like you would want them to treat you, you accept them as they are, and we are all different in one way or another, we aren't all the same, we all have feelings and emotions, we all have things we like and things we don't like, we are not always wrong, and we aren't always right (except me of course, Joking) and if you have a difference of opinion, you talk to them about it, in a calm and freindly way; respectfully, you don't attack them because they are different or have a different opinion than you, that is dis-respectfull.

Respecting someone you like is easy, respecting someone you don't like is not as easy, but the fact that you don't like him does it make him less of a person? And hence not worthy of respect? Of course not, and if you respect him even if you don't like him, you respect yourself and he should respect you back and eventually you could even become freinds, but not if you dis-respect him.

Personally, when a new tennant moves in "my" building and i see him or her i greet them with my signature "Hi there." and they usually respond positively, only one tought i had ulterior motives, but after a few times i said hi to him he spoke to me and told me that where he came from, when people spoke to him it was to get something from him, and he appologised.

I worked door to door for 7 years, and i was good at it, some of the reasons were because i was freindly and respectfull. In those seven years i only got the door slammed in my face 3 times, and once a guy tried to close the screen outer door i was holding, i didn't move to let him close it and stared him down, he appologised and closed the door, he didn't slam the door in my face like he wanted, and i didn't make my sell, but i didn't let him dis-respect me.

Love and respect...

If you love someone you respect them, and when you are in a relationship, and living togather, the respect should increase as the love also increases, that doesn't mean you should accept any thing and everything your partner does and sais, you can disagree with someone and argue with him without dis-respecting him, but all too often, in my experience, women get this notion that it is OK for her dis-respect her lover when she isn't 100% pleased with him, and when this happens she starts to bitch her little head off, AND not just about what just set her off, but also every little thing he ever did since they met, again and again, and after the 100th time she did that, he beats her up, then she's all surprised, wondering why he beat her she NEVER EVER did anything to deserve getting hit, much less beat up, why did he beat her? Because he was rightfully tired of her dis-respecting him and treating him like shit, it was wrong of him to beat her up, but it was also wrong of her to bitch her little head off at him, every single time she did it, if she realy loved and respected him she wouldn't have bitched at him in the first place, dis-respect breads dis-respect, and it is never healthy.


IT IS NEVER OK TO DIS-RESPECT ANYONE, NO EXCEPTIONS.

And if you are, you shouldn't stand for it.


PS, i have stated it before, and i state it again, i have never hit any of my girlfriens or my (ex)wife.

JohnDowe.

[Jenae LaTorque]

IT IS NEVER OK TO DIS-RESPECT ANYONE, NO EXCEPTIONS.
John Dowe

That is a ridiculous thing to say John. Without their opposites, most things lose their meaning. For everyone to respect one another, than the meaning of respect is gone.

Simple case: If I see a man kick a dog for no reason, I am not allowed to dis respect him? Get real man!

All I can figure you meant by this is that respect should be given until the other proves that they are not worthy of it.

As for me, there are plently of two-legged varimints in this world that I will dis-respect everytime. And would put a bullet in if it was possible to do so with impunity.

Would you respect these guys?

[johndowe]

John Dowe

That is a ridiculous thing to say John. Without their opposites, most things lose their meaning. For everyone to respect one another, than the meaning of respect is gone.

Simple case: If I see a man kick a dog for no reason, I am not allowed to dis respect him? Get real man!

All I can figure you meant by this is that respect should be given until the other proves that they are not worthy of it.

As for me, there are plently of two-legged varimints in this world that I will dis-respect everytime. And would put a bullet in if it was possible to do so with impunity.

Would you respect these guys?

HI there.

"Dealing with" the guy that kicked his dog is not dis-respecting him, it is correcting a wrong, he looses respect from you, yes, but in a way you are trying to help him to understand that it is wrong to kick his dog, as long as you don't kick him to show him, see the difference?

In your third statement, i agree to the extent that: if they don't respect you back, they don't earn their respect and are dis-respecting themselves and showing themselves to be only worthy of minimal respect, they are still human beeings.

Well, i agree that there are some vile people in this world, and some would deserve to be shot or even tortured to death for what they have done, but if you were to kill them, wouldn't that make you the same as they are, maby not as bad, but going down the same path?

About Hitler & Stalin, they didn't set out to be the way they were, when he was a child Adolph didn't aspire to kill 6,000,000 jewish people, but as he grew up and lived, his hared for others especially jewish people grew, and because of the stupid things the jews and the french did to the germans that started ww2, as i often say, it takes 2 to tango, you can't start a fight alone, but they did very vile things, and deserved their end, and more, but they were human beeings and deserved a minimal amount of respect even if they didn't show any to their victims, again if we do the very same thing they did, that makes us th same as the were, because, they too did what they did in reaction to what was done to them, where does it end? When we exterminate ourselves, and there are no more humans on the face of the earth?

It was written that eveil is easy, but good is hard.

And i agree that evil is easier, good is not always as hard as it is touted to be in that writing, when you look into yourself about an action you are about to take, you know if it is good or bad, and you choose to do it or not, so sometimes good may be harder, but evil or bad can also be hard.

But in the end you are more likely to regret a bad action than a good one, regretting having killed some one doesn't bring him(or her) back, while regretting having given the last of your money to a charity is not as bad and you will get more money at some point soon anyway.

And as i stated earlyer in this post, when you do a bad thing including dis-respecting someone, you dis-respect yourself.

JohnDowe.

[ila]

.........About Hitler & Stalin, they didn't set out to be the way they were, when he was a child Adolph didn't aspire to kill 6,000,000 jewish people, but as he grew up and lived, his hared for others especially jewish people grew, and because of the stupid things the jews and the french did to the germans that started ww2.........

You had better have some proof to backup a statement like that. I'm not referring to opinions, but to proof.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

First i NEVER said the jews deserved to be killed at auschwitz, far from it.

What i was refering to it the fact that the french and the jews flooded the already weak german economy with counterfit deutch marks, collapsing the german economy, Hitler beeing a failled house painter, already in a bad state of mind was made aware of that fact and consolidated his political career and used the jews as the reasons for all of germany's problems, they were responsable of a bit of them but not all of them, but saying that rallied the masses to his cause and gained more and more followers and support, until he got in power.

He was a clever man and VERY charismatic, but he was also consumed by hatred, and did horendous things, as we all know.

AS for proof i don't have any, any more than you do to contradict my statements.

The only thing close to proving this is the fact that the german economy did collapse and there were alot of counterfiet german currency.

And as we all know, those were volatile times and alot of records were destroyed, and not all accidentally(and on all sides).


Also i didn't think about what i was saying and i should have elaborated, but i didn't and i didn't mean to be dis-reapectfull of the jewish people or any other people for that matter, and for that I APPOLOGISE, but colapsing the german economy was a very stupid thing to do, irregardless of who did it.


JohnDowe.

[ila]

Hi there.

First i NEVER said the jews deserved to be killed at auschwitz, far from it.

I never said that you said that the Jews deserved to be killed at Auschwitz (or any other concentration camp or place). You made the statement that the actions of the Jews and the French started WWII. I challenged you to provide proof for that statement.


What i was refering to it the fact that the french and the jews flooded the already weak german economy with counterfit deutch marks, collapsing the german economy, Hitler beeing a failled house painter, already in a bad state of mind was made aware of that fact and consolidated his political career and used the jews as the reasons for all of germany's problems, they were responsable of a bit of them but not all of them, but saying that rallied the masses to his cause and gained more and more followers and support, until he got in power.

The German economy was collapsing due to hyper-inflation. There were several causes for this; among them were high unemployment, political unrest, reparation payments, etc. I rather doubt that counterfeit currency was the cause of all this. I'm not saying that there wasn't any counterfeit currency circulating because undoubtedly there was, as there still is to this day will all major currencies in the world. (By the way the currency at the the time was the Reichsmark)

AS for proof i don't have any, any more than you do to contradict my statements.

If you are going to come up with a statement which is your theory then the onus is on you to provide the proof for the validity of that statement. It is not on me to disprove it. For example when a scientist or mathematician comes out with a theory that scientist or mathematician is required to prove his/her theory. It is not required that anyone else disprove it.

The only thing close to proving this is the fact that the german economy did collapse and there were alot of counterfiet german currency.

Yes, the German economy did collapse. It also recovered when political stability was brought to the country. And yes, the NSDAP did provide political stability for a period of years, no matter how repulsive their aims and means of achieving their aims. The point is that there was political stability and it was in a great part responsible for the recovery of the economy.


Disclaimer - Don't take any of my statements as support for Hitler, the NSDAP, or policies of Germany. Nor should anyone take my statements as support for or justification for WWII.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

The big thing here, is that neither of us was there at the time.

And that there were lots of things that happened that weren't recorded and or were destroyed, so it is hard to proove anything beyond a resonable doubt, but if everybody would have been more tolerent hence more respectful, ww2 very probably would never have happened.

JohnDowe.

[ila]

.....And that there were lots of things that happened that weren't recorded and or were destroyed, so it is hard to proove anything beyond a resonable doubt, but if everybody would have been more tolerent hence more respectful, ww2 very probably would never have happened.
JohnDowe.

You have a point there, John. The seeds of tolerance and respect would have had to have been planted a long time before then, though.

[aw9725]

Here are a few suggested books on the conditions of pre-war Germany:

“Germany 1918-1939” by John Kerr

“Economic Crisis and French Foreign Policy” by Haim Shamir

“The Treaty of Versailles: a reassessment after 75 years” by Manfred Franz Boemeke, Gerald D. Feldman, Elisabeth Gläser

“The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money” by John Maynard Keynes

“Wilsonianism: Woodrow Wilson and his legacy in American foreign relations” by Lloyd E. Ambrosius

[johndowe]

You have a point there, John. The seeds of tolerance and respect would have had to have been planted a long time before then, though.

Hi there.

You have a point there too.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Here are a few suggested books on the conditions of pre-war Germany:

"Germany 1918-1939" by John Kerr

"Economic Crisis and French Foreign Policy" by Haim Shamir

"The Treaty of Versailles: a reassessment after 75 years" by Manfred Franz Boemeke, Gerald D. Feldman, Elisabeth Gläser

"The General Theory of Employment, Interest and Money" by John Maynard Keynes

"Wilsonianism: Woodrow Wilson and his legacy in American foreign relations" by Lloyd E. Ambrosius

Hi there.

Thank you for the effort, but i prefer lighter reading, or tech manuals, but again the jesture is appresiated.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

The origin of respect and out need for it.

Along time ago, and NOT in a galaxy far far away, when we were all living in small tribes, the need for respect was more important than food and water, for the individual, because since we were nomadic, if one of the tribemembers was disrespected by his fellow tribesmen, he could and possibly would be abbandoned by the tribe and left to fend for himself, his odds of survival would be severely diminished, and his chance of procreating would be nil, but it would also probably be a good thing since he was dis-respected, and probably deserved the dis-respect, so respect was essential to our survival, back then.

Now that we have "evolved" respect is not as crucial to our survival as it once was, but it is important in ALL social interactings, some one that isn't respected will not succed in business, will not find a mate, or freidns, and will be an outcast, those who are respected will enjoy all those things.

But that's not the whole story is it?

Some people that are dis-respected and dis-respectful can and do live comfortably in our society, because there are things that can over shadow the respect or dis-respect we feel about someone, one thing is fear, another is money, and they can and do motivate people to do and act differently towards those people, you can't buy love or respect but you CAN buy things and hire people to hang around you and make them seem that thery like and respect you and you may get a bit of respect for the appearance of respect to blend in, but beeing respectful would be much easier.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Wolves are a social species, like we are or more precicely we were, and in a social gathering there are rules, there is a leader and there are subordinates, there are males and females, both have a leader and both have their own tasks and some shared tasks, if there is a leader and a rival for the position arises, the whole pack is affected and the conflict must be resolved, the leader and the rival have to have it out and only one can be the leader, the winnwer is the new leader, the loser can be forgiven or chased from the pack, but it is the leader's decision and none of the other wolves will interfeer with it.

At first glance it may not seem a good idea to chase away an obviously strong and probably good hunter from the pack, but it isn't his strength or his hunting capabilities that are in question, but his compliance to the leader, for the pack to function as a unit there has to be unity, one leader unquestionned and obeyed, blinly, if there is discention in the ranks, it is detrimental to all the members of the pack, a deer that would have been caught, could have escaped becaude of this discention and the whole pack would go hungry for a day, so respect of the leader is more importand than individual prowess, the same is true for the females, only the leader of the pack mates and only with the dominant female, they also have their roles to play, they tend to the young and defend the camp while the males hunt, any one of the pack would give their lives for the pack, for without the pack they would not survive.

This is true of all social animals, there are variants but the underlying principle remains the same, but only for small packs of less than say 50 members beyond that the system is non responsive and smaller groups form and it becomes harder for the whole group to function as a unit, a family structure implements itself, and the pack becomes a tribe, a center point to operate from but not directly tied to the others, it is no longer a dictatorship but a cooperative of sorts, where the whole tribe will defend itself from enemies, but may very well hunt by thenselves and share in the results of the hiunt with the rest of the tribe in exchange for having their young tended and kept safe, but in order for that system to work there has to be a leader that all the families will raly behind in times of crisis, and that is why respect is so important to them, the leader is the one that is most respected and that has proven himself a worthy member of the tribe, and those who are not respected are viewed as useless and eventually excluded from the tribe entirely and end up dead before their time.

There are few animals that live in a tribal atructure, but we use it extensively and we use it in a GRAND scale with cities of millions of inhabitants, where once respect was given an recieved without question, now giving it is a problem, where selfishness was rooted out for the greater good, selfishness is now a way of life, where lazyness was a sin, now it is no only tolerated but accepted, and for what, so that some may gain power over others and make money, respect is as important now as it was then, so why not play the game properly? Give respect to get it, it is that simple and them you have to keep beeing respectful to earn it, is that so hard? for a normal person, no, but for the lazy and the selfish it is and, over time the dis-respect that they generate for themselves is extended to others of their area, tensions arise, crime increases, attacks become more common, sounds femiliar?

Because of some less desirable people who openly dis-respect themselves beeing lazy and selfish, are accepted and protected by some well meaning but midguided people, it causes resentments, ill feelings and miss understandings between the different groups and with time the problems escalate and those groups distance themselves from eachother, until there are well tended nice looking areas and there are slums, those who were instrumental in creating those slums deserve to live there, but unfortunately, it is their children that end up living there and they are dis-respected because they live there and theat their parents were lazy and selfish, and weather or not they themselves are lazy or selfish, and they have great difficulty escaping the slums, and when the do get out their attitude betrays them and they are treated as second class citizens and all because of the lack of self-respect of their forefathers, and the dis-respect was forced on to them.

Solving the problem is not that hard in theory, but has proven to be much harder in practice, in theory, all one would have to do would be to start respecting himself and others and problem solved, ok, but there isn't just one person that is in this problematic sitution, there are millions and some are comfortable living there and make money because of the slums beeing what they are, and are wiling to go to great lengths to keep things as they are, and from both sides of the fence, so the problem persists because the will to change of the inhabitants of the slums is weak and unorganised and the ones that want to keep things as they are, are better organised, but if the inhabitants of the slums would learn the simple rules of respect and start applying them properly the ones that want to keep the slums as they are would not be able to do so and a major urban problem would be almost solved.

Who knew respect and the lack of it, could have such far reaching consequences.

JohnDowe.

[ila]

Note: ila, if this site is not appropriate or "off topic" you can delete it, I won't be offended. :)

The link is not what I expected. I won't spoil the surprise though, and reveal what happens when one clicks on the link.

[Jenae LaTorque]

What link?

[ila]

What link?

The post has been deleted by the OP. That's too bad as I thought that it was a good post.

[aw9725]

We will try this again. Hope it injects some humor into this thread. :) FYI my own score was "39"... Good luck! :cool:

http://howmanyfiveyearoldscouldyoutakeinafight.com

Caution: there is a "pop up" for a dating service at the end of the quiz that is easily ignored.

[Jenae LaTorque]

But I could handle 31 old people. Some fun things there. I now know I am a 56% geek and scored 43% on eating my buddies.

P.S. I looked for the How Many Dwarfs Could You Take On quiz. But I couldn't find it. A while back I was in a car accident with a dwarf in a VW. He came up to me and said, "I'm not happy!" I couldn't resist it. I said, "So which one are you? ...Grumpy?..... Doc? .." And the fight was on.:lol:

[aw9725]

I scored 70% on the "Geek" test and 100% on the "Human Shield" test. Not sure that's a *good* thing! LOL! :eek:

[aw9725]

I ran the "cuss-o-meter" test on my blog and found it got a rating of "0%"!

That actually dosen't surprise me in that it is associated with my university and students read it. I try to keep it "clean." :innocent: Also it is mostly a discussion of technology and effects on society--nothing really risque.

I also took the "Caffine" test and found I am a "productive worker." Guess I haven't had enough coffee yet! Still have exams to grade... LOL!

[SandraB]

Hi all, first post, been looking for a while but only membered up now.

Have something to say about wolves and respect, but have to research something first.

SandraB.

[Natalie_J]

So now I know that I most likely taste like roasted tofu.

And I could take 23 five-years-old in a fight...

I love the internet so much!

Edit: But I'm only 42% Geek!

[SandraB]

Hi all, Sandra here.

About those wolves, they are social animals and their society is similar to how we were several thousands of years ago, but we have evolves a lot since then, the IQ of the smartest bread of dogs is about 30, while the average human's is at least 120, it doesn’t compare, but the need for leadership and respect of the leader was the same.

The leader had to be the smartest and the strongest as to be the most effective leader and breathing stock, and we call the leader the ALPHA wolf, but I believe that the ALPHA wolf as he is called, is the ALPHA wolf because he is the leader but he is the leader because he is an ALPHA wolf from birth and assumed leadership when he was ready, why is it that in a litter of 8 wolf puppies only 1 would challenge the leader of the pack and the other 2 or 3 males just follow whichever male is the leader?

Because he is an alpha male to begin with and as such it is in his genetic makeup to lead, his superior strength and tactical sense make him a natural choice for a leader and somehow he is aware of this and will challenge the current leader whom is probably also an alpha male, the strongest and keenest will win out and be the leader, nature wants no less than the best.

But we humans have evolved socially to live in big cities, with millions of people, the need for leaders is still there but, it is different, the leaders of today aren't chosen for their strength or tactical sense, today leaders of society are elected and the winner is the one that had the best campaign, not the smartest, not the wisest but the one with the most money, and we wonder why the world is in such turmoil? Also, often the one running in the election is just a figurehead, and the ones that sponsored his campaign are the ones that rule, scary.

We have evolved socially and physically, but we are still part of nature, weather or not we believe this, and we are still bound by its laws, and as such there are also human ALPHA males and females born all the time, but since our lifespan is longer and our tribes were bigger fewer alphas were required and were subsequently born, and they as alphas would be stronger and smarter than non alphas, to be better leaders, but in this society of ours, true leaders alphas are often not interested in politics because of the corruption and the stupidity of it, preferring to be local leaders helping on a smaller scale, and doing more good that way.

Alphas are not likely to be criminals, their leadership skills and strengths are usually coupled with a keen sense of right and wrong making them devote their lives to helping others and organizing help programs for those in need, they are the ones that never quit, that do the right thing irregardless of what others may think, and often don't even know they are natural leaders, because they are too busy leading and helping others, but they also have a private life, like everybody else.


All this to introduce an interesting story about respect and leadership.


There are parts that are a bit hard to explain but will become clearer as you read the story.


Not too long ago I was on employment insurance and was looking for work, but in the mean time I was helping in a local charity who helped black women, I am a white male, but they needed "muscles" and I was willing to help so the I was "hired" and as I was working I saw this cute black girl, she was about 25yo, and I was 40, but I got a different vibe from her than I usually get from others, and since I had to go to the office once in a while I knew I would meet her in the near future, that evening, the boss lady told me to come in earlier the next morning.

The next morning she was late, but I met the girl, I got her name, and I sat down since she was on the phone with one of her friends, then another woman that worked there who was about 30 came in and started to give her shit about some work related problem she had with her, she kept talking on the phone as if she wasn't even there, and looked at her and gave her a "stop making noise" look, the woman was even more annoyed with her but didn't do anything and went to her desk grumbling, and the boss arrived and I got my orders and left, because of that vibe I got from her and the way she handled her co-worker, I knew she was an alpha female.

I did my work and when I was finished I had to report to the boss, and she was the receptionist, so I put my hands on her desk and get a bit too close to her and I started to chat her up, I was intentionally making her feel a bit uncomfortable without being rude, then she did something that confirmed to me that she was indeed an alpha, she tried to establish dominance in a non verbal way, which I saw and let slide, as I went to talk to the boss, and left since my work for the day was done.

I was only working part time there and only went back a few days later, and when I was finished I had to see the boss, but again I intentionally got a bit too close to the receptionist for her to be comfortable, she was surprised since she had established dominance before, but she did it again and I let it slide again, and told the boss the job was done and left.

The next day I worked and the job was done, I went to the office and sat on the receptionist's desk kind of like her boyfriend would or someone who knew her well, and I spoke to her about the weather and other mundane things, I was again intentionally making her feel uncomfortable without being rude, again she tried to establish dominance but this time I blocked it, she knew something happened but she didn't know what, and I saw the boss telling her the job was done and I left.

The next time I worked there she had to come see me and I intercepted her before she got to my workspace and I told her I spoke to god and he told me she was a bad girl, she got it that I wasn't totally serious but still not totally joking either, she told me she had to talk to me and I told her that I’d be with her as soon as I finished what I was doing, when I got to my workstation, I got in her face and told her she had been bad she denied, but I insisted, and she pulled away but I stayed in her face and she again tried to establish dominance to prevent me from being able to continue my verbal assault upon her, which she didn't know how I knew she had been bad, but this time she did it with a vengeance and had she succeeded I would not have been able to be as mean to her as I had, but I blocked it again and reversed it but I wasn't kind, I gave no room to defend against any of my attacks, so I continued to get in her face in front of all the other workers, and all she did was to raise her open fists in a mock defense effectively giving up the fight, she knew I won, and looked down, the other workers were all staring, and I looked at then and they all went back to work, as if nothing happened, I never got any feedback from that incident and none of the other workers treated me any different than before.

Later that day, when I was going to tell the boss I was finished I saw the receptionist and she greeted me with a smile then with some open fists, then a smile, she didn't know how to deal with me, which was what I was expecting, I told the boss I was leaving and told the receptionist to get her things and follow me, which she did, I took her to an empty conference room and talked to her about why I had done what I did.

I told her she was an ALPHA female and as such she would easily establish dominance with almost everybody females, and males, the only ones that would give her trouble would be other alpha females, she would thump everybody else, she seemed confused as I had thumped her and so easily, I told her that as an alpha female the only one who would always trump her was an ALPHA male, and I told her the reason I was in her face was because she abused her privileges, she agreed and we left together, she had a boyfriend and they got married a few months later.

The establishing of dominance I spoke about is a psychic attack of sorts that anyone can do, theoretically, but to my experience only alphas actually do it, I have done it and I stopped because I deemed it unnecessary, but I still can do it and defend against it, and the receptionist did it instinctively while I did it consciously, to my knowledge psychology is still in the dark about all of this, this is what was I stated I was researching in my last post.

Alphas are rarely the bad guys; they are the community leaders, the ones who help others not the ones who victimize others.


If you don't agree or something, I don't really want to discuss this too much, and the ensueing discussion will likely be off subject anyway.

Sandra.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Sandra, this is quite an interesting story, i don't know how to take it at the moment, but i was thinking about respect, fear and leadership but you kinda beat me to it.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Sandra, after pondering and re-reading your story, i am still not convinced about your claim to be an alpha male, no, not because of your travestism but hey, i intimidated those 4 guys alone and by myself and i intimedated guys that touted themselves as un-intimidatable, so i could say that i am an alpha male, even if i can't psychickly establish dominance, it doesn't make it so.

And then you say you don't want to talk about it, i don't think so, you knew your story was at least a bit hard to believe, and you want us to take it at face value? No questions asked, no i think you OWE us a little bit more than that, if you didn't want to talk about it, why did you post it?

I AM awaiting your reply.


JohnDowe.

[Sigma]

It is better to be feared. Being rejected is embarrassing and some people will try to walk over you. Being feared can give you respect.

[johndowe]

It is better to be feared. Being rejected is embarrassing and some people will try to walk over you. Being feared can give you respect.

Hi there.

You are confusing fear and respect, I quote myself:


"If a guy gets picked on by others, and is beeing bullied, then he gets a gun.

Asked, he will say: I didn't get any respect before, now i do.

But is it respect?"



NO!

The guys that were on his case stopped picking on him because they fear getting shot, if he were to lose the gun and they knew it he would get beat up real bad as a retaliation to his getting the gun, so fear and respect are diametrally opposed, if you are feared you are not respected, if you are respected you are not feared, more prcicely, the more feared you are the less respected you are, the more respected you are the less you are feared.

Not being feared is in effect being liked, and when was that ever a bad thing?

I know when i started this thread that was the question but as i tought and researched it i realised i and most people didn't understand what respect was, and i changed my position and expectations about this thread.

Please read all the post in order and you will see what i mean, thank you.

As for rejections, all through your life you will sometimes be rejected, if others make fun of you, they are showing their pettyness and they are in effect did-respecting themselves, the importand thing in this situation is not what they do or say, but how you handle the rejection, if you handle it well, (respectfully) those same guys may very well be surprised at your reaction and end up respecting you for the mature way you handled yourself.

JohnDowe.

[aw9725]

The term “alpha male” has typically been used in characterizing the behaviors of animals. As observed, in wild packs, there will develop a chain of dominance from the most powerful male to the “omega” or least powerful. Clearly the “alpha” gets preference in terms of mating and eating. So therefore survival and procreation are dependent on establishing “dominance.” The “alpha” must maintain his position and is constantly challenged by younger, even stronger, males. Eventually he is defeated and another “alpha” emerges. It is a “dog eat dog” world quite literally.

Humans however, at least I would like to think, are slightly more evolved than that. We have created social organizations, rules, laws, governments, and even religions to impart order on our society. One of the first uses of “alpha” to refer to human behavior was the term “alpha plusses” in Brave New World by Aldous Huxley. Since then, it has been common in popular culture to refer to someone in a position of leadership as an “alpha.”

It has been a very long time since I studied this stuff in grad school but I believe that leadership and power in modern society depend as much on “social” or “situational” factors as they do on personal characteristics. In my own field, higher education, respect is gained primarily through knowledge. In order to do what I do, one must first demonstrate that they “know something” (it’s a piece of paper called a “doctorate”--whether or not it really means anything--who knows--there are clearly people here who are as educated and probably smarter than I am). Once accepted, the individual must then be able to show that they can “contribute” to further acquisition of knowledge (it’s called “research and publication”) and also that they can impart that knowledge to others (it’s called “teaching”). One also must be seen as a “good colleague” and part of a “community of scholars.” If you pass the test you get tenure and promotion (only then can you become a complete asshole--sorry I couldn’t resist). I have read some of the other posts on “respect” and “alpha” behavior here and I will have to say I have never encountered anything quite like it in my own life or career. I am quite sure that some of the “dominance” and “territorial” behavior described goes on--I just have been fortunate enough to have not seen it. We DO have the occasional fight over content areas or budgets but we don’t go around “in each others face.” We are much more subtle…

For myself, I never have thought in terms of whether or not *I* am an “alpha” male. After reading this thread, I started thinking about it… certainly I have many of the “traits.” I am tall (6’4” - or very close, you know you can't trust men to measure anything themselves), a former college football player (middle linebacker), still pretty fit at 39, have a strong speaking voice, and have assumed many positions of leadership from way back in high-school where I was our team’s defensive captain to more recently where I chaired my university’s technology committee for two years. When I get dressed up in a suit and tie (rarely--thank God), I probably look pretty scary. LOL! As for “fear,” I would never want to have my students or colleagues or friends or my lover “fear” me. In academia it would be counterproductive--we want to encourage free and open discussion and inquiry. Besides, whoever went around acting like too much like a “bully” or played too many “intimidation games” with other faculty or students would (forgive my “unacademic” choice of words) have their ass thrown out on the street. Forget tenure. Very early in my career (when I was like 23 or 24 and working on my Master's), there was a guy like that who acted like a "hard ass" and tried to intimidate (I personally think he was "scared shitless" of speaking in front of such a large group and was worried that the students wouldn't "respect" him... they didn't.) who they had hired to teach a couple of classes--he didn’t make it through the semester and I took over for him.

Do I command “respect” in my own personal and professional life? Well, so far I’d have to say “Yes.” I was granted tenure and am on track to be promoted to Full Professor next year. I am published and have even written a couple of books (gathering dust somewhere no doubt). I keep a blog that has a pretty wide readership--last summer I wrote about how the traffic after Michael Jackson’s death affected the Internet. A local TV station picked it up and CNN mentioned it (but not me by name). This semester at least, every Monday and Wednesday I have to command the attention and respect of approximately 150 18-20 year olds in my 8:00 lecture. As far as “respect” on the street--well I was born and raised in Detroit south of 8 mile. I think I could handle myself… ;)

I didn’t intend to get back into this discussion or talk about myself so much (I’d much rather talk about Kelly Shore or music or things that go fast) but this thread and discussion of “respect” has taken on a personal twist. There has also been mention of "female" alpha types. Very interesting. I wanted to add that during my career, I have had several female “superiors” and have no issues with women in positions of power. I think if you were to ask most of us (in academia) about what determines “power” and “respect,” I think you would find that “knowledge,” “integrity,” “character,” “friendship,” and similar traits would be at the top of the list.

Finally, I’d like to share a couple of theories on leadership with you that might put the concept of a human "alpha male" in context. Homework if you will... Vroom proposed a “situational leadership” model where the leader is constrained entirely by events. There was also a Fiedler "contingency” model that I remember reading about somewhere that was similar. For what it's worth, I myself, rely on more of a “consensus” model. Blake also proposed a “managerial grid.” My Dad was an executive at GM in the 1960’s through the 80’s and probably used something like that. I’m sure his experience in “management” and “leadership” would be far different from mine! Through him I did an internship at GM. Corporate world: not for me!

Some very intriguing and even controversial issues have been raised in this thread. I do want to keep this discussion and all others on a friendly level. I have truly enjoyed being part of this forum as I have learned a great deal more about my own sexuality--as well as other things--I consider all of you friends and teachers in that I feel I have much to learn. Some of you who have shared your own experiences and challenges--you cannot imagine how much respect I have for you--and what you’ve taught me. One day, I may reveal where I teach and who I am. We have a LGBT organization on campus and I have thought about going there to talk to a counselor as I continue my own personal growth. :cool:

Take care...

[SandraB]

Hi there.

Sandra, after pondering and re-reading your story, i am still not convinced about your claim to be an alpha male, no, not because of your travestism but hey, i intimidated those 4 guys alone and by myself and i intimedated guys that touted themselves as un-intimidatable, so i could say that i am an alpha male, even if i can't psychickly establish dominance, it doesn't make it so.

And then you say you don't want to talk about it, i don't think so, you knew your story was at least a bit hard to believe, and you want us to take it at face value? No questions asked, no i think you OWE us a little bit more than that, if you didn't want to talk about it, why did you post it?

I AM awaiting your reply.

JohnDowe.

Hi all.

When i said i didn't want to talk about it too much, i meant that i can't come here very often, that's all.

And the reason i joinned and posted was because of what i saw.

And what was that you say?

I read many if not most of your posts John, or Peter, and as far as i am conserned you ARE an ALPHA male, you speak your mind, and you defend yourself and others, you started theads to help others that are in a different situation you are in, sometimes when you post you seem agressive even if you don't mean to, it is your nature to be outspoken, and some don't understand and label you as harsh or a "pompous ass" because of it, and as i noticed you don't realy care about labels anyway all ALPHA male caracteristics.

Also, i think AW9725, Andy, could also be an ALPHA male, but i'm not realy sure, i will follow your posts and see...

Sandra.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Hey, I'M an ALPHA MALE, YAY!

Ok, no more jokes, but what does it change in my life anyway?

But i suppose the question should be what should i do with that information?

Well, the best thing to do with it is for me to take note of it and go on with my life as if nothing happened.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

Respect in the workplace.

The workplace is a complex place and it follows rigid rules, and those who are in positions of power don't always belong there, same as politics, if you WANT to be in power, it doesn't mean you belong there, and in fact many who are do not deserve or belong there, also many people confuse authority and respect, if they are not good bosses the employees may respect the position but not the man holding the position, they do what they are told because they are paid to do the work, these bad bosses often mis-use their "authority" and confuse the fear of dismissal as respect which it obviously isn't, these individuals strive for those positions of power because they crave acceptance and respect that thy never got from their parents or freinds etc. and they invariably confuse fear of dismissal with respect and they behave like tirants, to get the respect they never got in their youth and of course they fail, and i the end they always feel an emptyness that they canot fill, because they were dis-respected in the most importand parts of their lives, their youth, and they have all these delusions about power and respect, and until these selusions are dispelled, they will never be "healed" and will continue to be tirants, and hated by their subordinates.

There are also those who do not seek power but when they get into positions of power, they do not handle it well, their co workers will often say: "He was a good guy before, but now he's such an asshole." These guys also have unresolved issues and try to work them out in their new position of power, to all their subordinates dismay, they want respect of course, but think they "deserve" more respect and their subordinates deserve less than before, but they are obviously wrong, but in their minds they are right and everybody else's opinion doesn't count.

The only way to get to these bad bosses is to get them to see the error of their ways, which is an arduous task in itself, and made harder by the fact that all employees are paid to work and not to psycho analyse eachother, but there are ways to deal with bad bosses, without getting fired.

I myself, have always got the respect from most of my bosses except my first ones, and i would never let them get away with being rude or disrespectful to me, and without getting into a shouting mach, sometimes a look can convey more "power" than a big arguement, and so can a well placed sarcastic responce.

These bad bosses are not realy to be hated, but pitied, because they are behaving that way because they have unresolved issues and they try to compensate through their work, and of course they won't since they aren't aware of their "problem" and you canot fix something that you don't know needs repair, and if someone does break through their shell, they may become less tyranic but old habbits die hard.


JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

Hi there.

On the flip side, there are good bosses, apparently not many but there are some, those who can handle the power and not abbuse it, who know when to crack the whip and whan to let things slide, but the boss isn't always the one at fault, he does have responsabilities and the work HAS to be done and on time, and not every employee is the perfect worker, and the boss HAS to use his power to get things done, but some employees try to get a free pass from a newly promoted boss, and force the new boss to flex some of that new authority, and as everybody (should) know, it takes 2 to tango, and things escalate, and power is addictive and can degenerate into an hostile working environement, the employee tried to dis-respecct the new boss, the new boss tried to correct the situation, but not everybody knows how to deal with all kinds of people, some are nice and easy to deal with, but there are some people who are well, assholes and do not respect anybody (including themselves) and will at least contribute to the creation of hostile working conditions, and again it boils down to respect, or the lack there of.

If the newly appointed boss is a newer employee, other older employees may take offence at the "new" guy being chosen over them, weather or not they deserved to be promoted, instead of respecting the bosses choice.

Because in general, we value ourselves more than we are really worth, and value others less than they are worth, and we may believe we would do a better job than the new boss, but if that were so and the boss knew it wouldn't he have promoted you instead?

All in all, one should respect all others and accept what they can't change and make the best of things instead of creating problems, because let's face it there are enough problematic things in this world without everybody creating more.


JohnDowe.

[alphanumeric]

Respect is better because you have earned it. Nobody but you can take it away.

Fear is derived from pain. Being feared means having to constantly prove your the top dog, and there's ALWAYS someone bigger and badder than you.

I've had people get in my face and disrespect me, but they're usually people whom I have no respect for anyways so their opinions of me and mine don't count.

That's how I see it anyways.

[johndowe]

Respect is better because you have earned it. Nobody but you can take it away.

Fear is derived from pain. Being feared means having to constantly prove your the top dog, and there's ALWAYS someone bigger and badder than you.

I've had people get in my face and disrespect me, but they're usually people whom I have no respect for anyways so their opinions of me and mine don't count.

That's how I see it anyways.

Hi there.

I agree, and as i stated in this thread, when you (generic) dis-respect someone (through fear or any other means) you dis-respect yourself.

JohnDowe.

[rhythmic delivery]

in most cases its better to be respected. but in some walks of life fear is much more usefull.

[new believer]

in most cases its better to be respected. but in some walks of life fear is much more usefull.

Being better is a matter of perspective. I woud prefer fear. One has to EARN respect. And 'EARN' ='s work. I work enough already. With fear, no one(hardly) messes with you or simply leaves you alone. And sometimes one needs to be alone. Just ask Greta Garbo. NB

[d332_dot_com]

applying George Bernard Shaw's quote "Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" I would pick fear. If fear leads to hatred and hatred - perhaps (and a big perhaps at that) may be a stone's throw away from love, then at least there's some emotion involved.

Respect is just respect. I guess it's like some college degree. The people who have it think nothing of it. The ones who don't consider, it the end all of intelligence. Whenever I have conversations with girls who harp on respect, I thin - rightfully or wrongfully - they must not get much of it.

Then when you see the people who are always trying to get ill-treated....it's always the ones who get respect and power throughout their typical day. Think subs in S/M.

Respect is just following a set of polite rules. But fear is a powerful force that drives you over the edge, and make you do things you otherwise won't do.

And I like that.

[johndowe]

Being better is a matter of perspective. I woud prefer fear. One has to EARN respect. And 'EARN' ='s work. I work enough already. With fear, no one(hardly) messes with you or simply leaves you alone. And sometimes one needs to be alone. Just ask Greta Garbo. NB

Hi there.

As i said elsewhere, i'm back...

You say you have to work to earn respect?

Well, i suppose being cyvil to someone could possibly be considered work, or being polite and curtious too.

But having to intimidate someone or even beating them up to get the fear isn't work?

And then if the guy you beat up has freinds and they try to beat you up, if you run away, you lose the fear and by the way running is work in my book, and if you do fight them, well there will be a lot of people working to clean up that mess, irregardless of who won.

JohnDowe.

[johndowe]

applying George Bernard Shaw's quote "Hatred is the coward's revenge for being intimidated" I would pick fear. If fear leads to hatred and hatred - perhaps (and a big perhaps at that) may be a stone's throw away from love, then at least there's some emotion involved.

Respect is just respect. I guess it's like some college degree. The people who have it think nothing of it. The ones who don't consider, it the end all of intelligence. Whenever I have conversations with girls who harp on respect, I thin - rightfully or wrongfully - they must not get much of it.

Then when you see the people who are always trying to get ill-treated....it's always the ones who get respect and power throughout their typical day. Think subs in S/M.

Respect is just following a set of polite rules. But fear is a powerful force that drives you over the edge, and make you do things you otherwise won't do.

And I like that.

Hi there.

Most people misunderstand the consept of respect and fear, while you are right fear can make you do things you wouldn't, but usually all the wrong things for the wrong reasons, and in the end it causes more problems for everybody involved, violence never solves anything, it will close a discussion but the argument is stopped but none of the opinions have changed, other than the winner thinks he won the arguement and the loser thinks the winner is even more of an asshole, so nothing was accomplished and someone got beat, that's not very smart, is it?

And respect is how you treat yourself and deal with others in every part of your life.

Another thing, you (genericly speaking) owe more respect to others than they owe you, once you understand this equasion (as it were) you will understand respect and will be able to interact with others more effectively.

More forthcoming.

JohnDowe.

[tunlov]

Respected.