New and Looking

[hankhavelock]

" Goddess of all Goddeses"


lol.. my golly .. *wipes tears of laughter* ... *falls out of chair* .... *continues laughing*

You guys are too funny!! Seriously, I think I have a better reputation here than I'm worth. I sometimes burp loud, I am cranky as hell in the morning, I am probably a little too competative at pool and darts, I snort when I laugh sometimes...

I get confused with lots of light and sound (gotten in wrecks in the supermarket before). I get lost easily, I'm a bit demanding during sex, I can be pretty selfish (probably my least favorite quality).

And.. I'll say again I'm really just an average gal with some cranky opinions. Hardly goddess material....

:inlove: u c? the more u say, the more convincing ;-) do u know the story by Danish author H.C.Andersen about the TRUE princess?

[sesame]

Ok, its a deal then,

Hanky loves you cranky
Sesame likes you sane.
Goto him when danky,
Dine with me neaten.
Bionca, you never (really) wane!:kiss:

[suki]

Hmmm,

i think with some changes things will definately improve for you.

i don't mean physical changes.

much can be done; please stay optimisitic.

suki

[sesame]

it is so often the little flaws, the little imperfections that made all the difference and made her even more desirable... ... you wake up beside her, her make-up wonderfully smudged upon last nights passionate "interactions", her hair indeed sticking out in all directions (often more in one than all the others :-), her breath is "intense", maybe she made a little morning-gas, she's relaxed, comfortable and READY... "Hoooneeey..." she moans. Total YUMMIE! ... THAT's so perfect for a soooft morning-passion... after which you cuddle and slumber off again...Considering the above statement of dear little Hank as true, here is my answer: Remember, you have officially announced your deep affection for her "Little imperfections"! So,

Bionca in the middle: A poem ;)

Hanky loves you cranky,
Sesame likes you sane.
Goto him when danky,
Dine with me neaten.
Bionca, you never (really) wane!
:kiss::kiss::kiss::kiss:

[Bionca]

I just got some pretty stunningly bad news about a friend. I think I'm going to take some time to get my head clear. I've posted the details on my blog, and don't really want to rehash it here....:censored:

[sesame]

I'm so sorry for your friend!
Shame often paves the way for miscarriage of justice. Now the rapist will be so much encouraged. He will be confident to commit the same crime again and again like a man-eating Tiger! And he was her lover in the past! That is so cruel and disgusting! Its feels like a Horrendous Betrayal! It is such an agony to know every moment that the tormentor is not a stranger but someone very close. Its nauseating!

This is not good at all.:(

[CreativeMind]

Bionca, I think I can speak for everyone when I say we hope your friend will be all right. In the end, some sense of justice would always be fitting and nice, but the most important thing is her health and well-being long term. So all our concern, sympathies, and best wishes go out to her right now....

[hankhavelock]

I just got some pretty stunningly bad news about a friend. I think I'm going to take some time to get my head clear. I've posted the details on my blog, and don't really want to rehash it here....:censored:

You and your friend have my fullest sympathy. However, this is just the ESSENCE of society's approach to transsexual people - extreme, yes, but still mainstream. In the end they don't give a f***.

Can we change that attitude? Maybe... in a hundred years in China..., eventually!

We're on our own - hence the necessity to stick together.

Blogs and books are good media to tell the horrific (as well as beautiful) things...

Take time to get your head clear, Bionca, and in the meantime make sure that you can defend yourself against the trans-haters around us... don't end up like my friend Mel who was beaten up by a dozen street-kids just for being a beautiful trans-woman...

[Bionca]

Thanks guys. I feel really honored that you all chose to comment here :hug: I'm still pretty wigged out and pissed off. But, my friend is ok and her current bf (who was out of town on a job not MIA as reported) is with her and is being a pretty swell falla.

[GRH]

Bionca, very sorry to hear about your friend. It is ashame how trans people are so often marginalized by law enforcement-- I can see why your friend would not report the rape.

[sesame]

I can see why your friend would not report the rape.What can you see? Tell me. Apart from shame and fear, what valid reason is there?

[GRH]

What can you see? Tell me. Apart from shame and fear, what valid reason is there?

You hit the nail on the head with your first two statements of the clause. Fear and shame are the single most valid reasons. A transwoman, living in stealth, doesn't want to bring extra attention to herself. Bringing rape charges inevitably involves a trial, and that means having your own character, as the key witness, assasinated and drug through the mud. No longer are you the anonymous woman who wants to blend in, you become the sideshow freak of the courtroom circus. I'm not saying that this is optimal, but that's just life. You'll be painted as an abberrant, probably as a prostitute, and every other negative connotation that can be thought up. I wish it wasn't this way, but there are SO many cases of law enforcement, and justice alike, of completely marginalizing and ignoring trans-related crimes.

[sesame]

How about the physical evidence? How can they go unnoticed? The semen samples, the bloody orifices, the bruises, the battered head or black eyes ... ... are they reminiscent of fun and party?

If nobody stands up against the criminals, forget justice forever.

[ila]

How about the physical evidence? How can they go unnoticed? The semen samples, the bloody orifices, the bruises, the battered head or black eyes ... ... are they reminiscent of fun and party?

If nobody stands up against the criminals, forget justice forever.

Fear and shame are the single most valid reasons. A transwoman, living in stealth, doesn't want to bring extra attention to herself. Bringing rape charges inevitably involves a trial, and that means having your own character, as the key witness, assasinated and drug through the mud.

GRH has a very good point. Fear and shame are pretty powerful inhibitors when a court system is so adversarial that the person who is the victim can be made out to be the one whose fault it is that the crime happened in the first place.

It is this system that allows criminals to escape justice and the justice system cannot function as it should.

[Dutch_88]

Does any of you know if there are any sweet T-girls in Holland?
I can't seem to find any... :(

[Bionca]

GRH.. pretty much exactly what you said is true with her. It's like a lesbian couple I know who were TOTALLY closeted. Their house was on fier and they spent time messing up the sheets in the guest room so that the firemen wouldn't know they were shareing a bed.

I don't blame her for her decision, and chances are I'd make the same one. It sucks but that's pretty much how the system was for GGs 50 years agot too..

[Bionca]

Does any of you know if there are any sweet T-girls in Holland?
I can't seem to find any... :(

Depends on what you are looking for? I know for fact that Amsterdam has a HUGE active population.

[sesame]

It's like a lesbian couple I know who were TOTALLY closeted. Their house was on fier and they spent time messing up the sheets in the guest room so that the firemen wouldn't know they were shareing a bed.It sounds like a spy story! Keep your head cool in emergency and fix some last minute flips so that the relationship is safe and secure! Its living with constant fear! What will the neighbours say about us? What if we are exposed! Oh no! What now!:no:

make sure that you can defend yourself against the trans-haters around us... don't end up like my friend Mel who was beaten up by a dozen street-kids just for being a beautiful trans-woman...What kind of a society of psychopaths is that? "I will Beat you up just because I dont like the color of your eyes!" These people need psychiatric help! Their place is in some Lunatic Asylum. :frown:

[Bionca]

In many ways living "stealth" is living in fear. Also in many ways it is the only way to secure personal safely. The down side is, you monitor EVERYTHING you do and say down to reflexes like coughing, laughing, clearing your throat, yelling, walking, standing...

It translates into the common conceptions of Transwomen being "more feminine than genetic women". For many of us we wrap ourselves in "femininity" as a safety blanket. Better to go too far than not far enough I guess.

It took me some time to be comfortable enough with myself and my body to simply be me - which oddly was the goal all along. In some ways during the journey to authenticity I lost some of "me" and it took some time to get all of her back.

[sesame]

It took me some time to be comfortable enough with myself and my body to simply be me - which oddly was the goal all along. In some ways during the journey to authenticity I lost some of "me" and it took some time to get all of her back.Explain more please!
In many ways living "stealth" is living in fear. Also in many ways it is the only way to secure personal safely. The down side is, you monitor EVERYTHING you do and say down to reflexes like coughing, laughing, clearing your throat, yelling, walking, standing...But that would require a Tg to give up the originality of herself and put on an artificial mask of pretence. And she will have to go on acting round the clock until she retires to bed! Is that kind of life comfortable? It sounds very tiring and full of mental strain. :(

[sesame]

On 2nd thoughts, acting is more or less a factor common of life.:innocent:

A holy man once told me that we are all pretending most of the time. We are performing in front of our relatives, friends and even to ourselves! :frown:

[ila]

A holy man once told me that we are all pretending most of the time. We are performing in front of our relatives, friends and even to ourselves! :frown:

Interesting sesame. Did he expand on this statement or just leave it at that? The part about performing to ourselves is very intriguing. I think you may be on to a theme for a new thread.

[sesame]

We hide our real thoughts and feelings from everyone. We are afraid or ashamed of other people, or may be we dont want to hurt them. So we put up an appearance of happiness and harmony even though our opinions dont concur.

"Doubt whom you will, but never yourself."
If we doubt our own beliefs, we can no longer continue with our lives in a usual manner. There will be a great conflict or mental breakdown. To avoid this, the mind, which is a conglomerate of thoughts, and quite inventive, adapts a strategy to continue usual life. It starts pretending to itself and starts denying the disrupting issues, as if they dont exist. It is with great control over the mind, can we dare to face the Reality of ourselves.

There is constant strife inside every one of us! Thats what the Holy man said.

[Bionca]

Explain more please!
But that would require a Tg to give up the originality of herself and put on an artificial mask of pretence. And she will have to go on acting round the clock until she retires to bed! Is that kind of life comfortable? It sounds very tiring and full of mental strain. :(


In a nutshell, I think lots of TGs initially go in an extreemly "feminine" way of being - "more feminine than 'real girls'". It helps to think of this as a second puberty - think how teenage girls act once they start to come into their own womanhood trying on the social roles and the affectations of "femininity". Lots of Tgs do the same thing in part to secure their identity and in part to make sure that people will see them as the correct gender. I sure did.

Eventually, like our genetic sisters, we eventually come into our own ways of being women. For some of us it remains a fery hyper feminine presentation, some very demure, some overtly sexual, but most are comfortably just gals. It's all about finding comfort.

For me specifically, I left behind some of the things that interested me as a young boy/man. I stopped reading comic books and playing video games because "girls didn't do that stuff". I stopped riding my skateboard for teh same reason. Then I just said to hell with it. I'll be a tall gal who trucks to the comic book store on her skateboard. Fun times those!!


Yes indeed it does mean that a stealthed TG gives up some freedom and expression. That level of self censorship can eventually take an emotional toll. Just ask a gay person who has been closeted for 50 years and finally "comes out" how much more free they feel.

[Bionca]

On 2nd thoughts, acting is more or less a factor common of life.:innocent:

A holy man once told me that we are all pretending most of the time. We are performing in front of our relatives, friends and even to ourselves! :frown:

My old therapist practiced what she called Psychodrama. In essence the branch of Psychology says that everyone plays different roles in their life (worker, son/daughter, husband/wife, friend etc.). None of these roles is the authentic person, but are a part of the authentic person. The key is to make sure all of the roiles one plays in life are in harmony and not at odds with the other.

[sesame]

What is this Psychodrama? Role playing?

Example:

Jim is a son to his father Mathew (my boy)
Jim is husband to his wife Sweetie (C'mon honey!)
Jim is a father to his son Jack (dad!)
Jim is a buddy to his friend Jacob! (dude)
Again, Jim is an employee to his boss Jaguar (Idiot!)
Jim is "sweetheart" to his secret love, Janet (Aaaaaha!)
Jim is "bastard" to his ex lover Amanda! (that lying scoundrel)

If Jim is so many, then who is he to himself?:frown: Just me???
How does he manage or handle so many roles?

[chrisraid3]

i am new to this page too and looking for man woman or tgirl lol

[Bionca]

What is this Psychodrama? Role playing?

Example:

Jim is a son to his father Mathew (my boy)
Jim is husband to his wife Sweetie (C'mon honey!)
Jim is a father to his son Jack (dad!)
Jim is a buddy to his friend Jacob! (dude)
Again, Jim is an employee to his boss Jaguar (Idiot!)
Jim is "sweetheart" to his secret love, Janet (Aaaaaha!)
Jim is "bastard" to his ex lover Amanda! (that lying scoundrel)

If Jim is so many, then who is he to himself?:frown: Just me???
How does he manage or handle so many roles?


There is some role-playing involved - yes. Most of Jim's roles are probably in harmony with eachother, so his conflict and anxiety would be found within the roles that are not in harmony (like husband and secret lover). Having a dialogue in a safe place between the two roles can help to twease out an authentic relationship between the two, or help to better define one or the other, or even help to end a role that is causing problems.

This absolutely helped me to integrate my past as a boy/man and my life as a woman as well as figure out how I internalized being a "boy" with the identity of a "girl".

[Dutch_88]

You should dedicate a topic to the Dutch transsexual "Kelly van der Veer". Does anyone know her? She's beautiful!

[hankhavelock]

U guys are light years above my "pay grade"... cannot follow all that psycho therapeutic stuff... but that's just ME! To me transsexual issues have always been and will always be what I can relate to on a personal level / and to me that's "hands on" literally. When I let my fingers run over her back in the morning and she turns in bed, opens her eyes and smiles at me, opens her arms and we kiss for ever...

Sure, let me at some time do my PhD in all this, but the important thing to me is all the love I meet. Blended in with all the pain. The combined beauty of transsexuality as I've met it.

Less than three meters from here lies the most amazing woman - so excuse me for not just dealing with academics :-) Her pleasure and smile is 1000 times more important ;-)

Gotta run...

Peace!

H

[Bionca]

I adore you Hank :hug:

It's rather like when your friend said she needed to accept her masculinity first. I just did mine with a therapist.

[sesame]

Hank is the happiest man that ever walked on earth.
He is full of joy, most of the time.
It seems to me that happiness is
spreading from him like fragrance
in all directions. :)

[sesame]

This absolutely helped me to integrate my past as a boy/man and my life as a woman as well as figure out how I internalized being a "boy" with the identity of a "girl".But you always thought of yourself as a girl! What extra help did the therapist offer? ... Relax, lie down on that sofa, close your eyes... tell me your thoughts, your dreams... ;)

Who prescribes the 'mones? Is it the therapist or some other doc? A therapist is some sort of a psychiatrist, I think?

[sesame]

Who is the tallest, fairest and wittiest of them all? :rolleyes:








Now then, where does that little fairy disappear from time to time?

[Bionca]

But you always thought of yourself as a girl! What extra help did the therapist offer? ... Relax, lie down on that sofa, close your eyes... tell me your thoughts, your dreams... ;)

Who prescribes the 'mones? Is it the therapist or some other doc? A therapist is some sort of a psychiatrist, I think?

I did always feel that I was a girl. The therapist helped to ease my anxiety about how my body would change and also to ake peace with my male body before I transitioned.

Sometimes a Psych will prescribe the 'mones. In my case it was/is an endocrynologist. Seeing a medical doctor during transition is crucial to monitor the liver and kidneys and to check for any blood clots that high levels of Estrogen can cause.

[sesame]

What is this Sexism issue that keep coming up in your Laughingriot blog? Do you prefer to single out men, women, lesbian women, gay men, m2f and f2m and suggest that each remain in their respective bounderies? I am confused.

[c.schinger]

Hey there,

I'm sorry to hear that. :(

If you're ever in Boston, MA...do look me up! I'll show you a great time around!

CS

[thebondj007]

Dont Worry Bionca....things will eventually unravel and work themselves out. When you stop looking, thinks kinda come to you. Life is weird like that.:cool:

[fuckshemaleass]

look and up,thx

[ladylover]

Well, I was living in Chicago until the breakup, now I'm back home in the middle of Ohio switching between my brother and a friend's houses. I'll be moving to either LA or Miami soon though depending on which job I'll be taking.

Small world! I'm from the "middle" of Ohio also. About 15 minutes Southeast of Columbus. If I was single, I'd date you. But, I'm happy! Good luck to you.

[ashifechi]

I think that some people are pre-disposed to a certain gender. It's one thing to have a pretty face and look .like your mother, but, for instance, I have a foot fetish, so I have noticed, some, t-girls have very thin, dainty wrists and ankles, and very feminine feet and hands.

Some t-girls' bodies are already very feminine. So, they must be more femlae than male in their genetic make-up.

[tgirllovinguy]

Hi Biona (and all), I just read through this entire thread, and hope you do not mind me posting here. First, I want to say I hope your friend is recovering okay, Bionca. It's great to hear her b/f was there for her.

Second, I hope you will forgive me for this, Bionca, but the guy you mentioned who "liked you too much" is a FORMER Marine, not an "ex-Marine." As a former Marine myself, I have to alert you to the fact that "once a Marine, always a Marine." ;)

Third, from reading this thread I have come to the conclusion that you are an amazing woman. Highly intelligent, a great sense of humor, incredibly beautiful, warm and kind-hearted. Your bit of self-effacement is attractive as hell because I truly get the sense that it's real and not something you do to to "fish for compliments." Your confession of being a "geeky girl" also gets "points" with me, even though I know you're not trying to "score" any. (And if you'd like to take that as a double entendre then you are most welcome to do so!) :lol:

Any guy would be extraordinarily lucky to win your heart. I do hope the best for you in all aspects of your life: especially in love. I am 37 and still looking for my "soulmate" but I know I can't give up because the minute I do the right girl will pass me by.

You seem like one of "the good guys" (and I am employing that phrase as part of the vernacular). ;)

Well, count me as another "fan" here. Sorry I am so long-winded, I have a B.A. in English, and I love to write. :p

All the best, and thank you for sharing so much of your time and your self here with us. :inlove: and :respect: and :hug: :)
Rob

[The Conquistador]

For me, the attraction to a ts is one of personal courage and independence. Obviously you don't give a damn about what other people think and want to live life as you see fit. It also shows that you have a strong will and determination and there is nothing more attractive than a woman who can fight off the world and still keep her head up high in the face of opposition. That's what I like about ts. They tend to have a stronger character than a gg because they have experienced so much crap and hardship and come out a better person because of it.

[BBboySingle]

Hi Bionica, First i must say it you are truly beautiful no doubt about it, i truly hope that some day you will be able to find the guy who's perfect for you and some that will understand, it is true that we men have the fantasy to be whit a t-gilr but some do understand and wouldn't mind that you weren't born as a girl but no matter the past what matters is the present and the future your beautiful and strong hang in there

[O'Sully TS Hopeful]

Bionca I think that you are GORGEOUS and deserve the man in the world. I know that if was still a hetero man then I would give you all the love and respect that you deserve. Too bad I want to be a tgirl so bad otherwise maybe we could've hooked up.

[Limegirl]

For me, the attraction to a ts is one of personal courage and independence. Obviously you don't give a damn about what other people think and want to live life as you see fit. It also shows that you have a strong will and determination and there is nothing more attractive than a woman who can fight off the world and still keep her head up high in the face of opposition. That's what I like about ts. They tend to have a stronger character than a gg because they have experienced so much crap and hardship and come out a better person because of it.

Yes, that is very true, we TS-girls have going through many rough experiences to make our bodys fit our inner picture of ourselves as women, we are women born in male bodies and that is an unmiagble tradegy for us.
We had to fight the societys prejudies, live in fear of violence, harazzments, contempt or at least total lack of understanding for our situation.
That fact makes me furius, I dont hurt anyone, leave me alone and let me live my life, why should this be so provocatice to many people? havent they other things to do then putting their noses in things that not are of their concern?
This is not a sexual thing, transexualism, its about life and death.
I want true love and respect and the best thing to achive this is to fit in the mainstream society so much as possible.
I want to have an naturale female approach, not an unaturale approach like many transvestites have with vulgar clothes, make up and offensive manners, looking like ugly hookers on the street.
/Limegirl

[rastarzan]

thats the way it is but in the end it is worth isnt it

[Limegirl]

thats the way it is but in the end it is worth isnt it

Yes, its worth EVERYTHING.., its a question of life and death for me...

[ila]

This is not a sexual thing, transexualism, its about life and death.
I want true love and respect and the best thing to achive this is to fit in the mainstream society so much as possible.
I want to have an naturale female approach, not an unaturale approach like many transvestites have with vulgar clothes, make up and offensive manners, looking like ugly hookers on the street.
/Limegirl

You want respect but you aren't willing to give any. You seem to have a vendetta against transvestites. To get respect you must give others respect.

[lucifer8]

Okay Bionca, Lets Date And ,if We Like Each Other, Get Married.

[hankhavelock]

Okay Bionca, Lets Date And ,if We Like Each Other, Get Married.

heyheyhey... easy does it, comrade... D'GIRL IS MINE (miiine, miiine)... :kiss:

[Bionca]

heyheyhey... easy does it, comrade... D'GIRL IS MINE (miiine, miiine)... :kiss:

*looks at finger*...*doesn't see a ring*... *looks at Hank*...

Anyway... umm.. don't fight guys, unless it's oiled, nude, and in chocolate pudding.

[Bionca]

Okay Bionca, Lets Date And ,if We Like Each Other, Get Married.

It seems like you say this to all the girls ;)

[CreativeMind]

You want respect but you aren't willing to give any. You seem to have a vendetta against transvestites. To get respect you must give others respect.

Well, I don't mean to put words into anyone's mouth, but in defense of Limegirl -- and she can correct me if I'm wrong here -- but based on her series of posts, what she seems to be saying is somewhat similar to thoughts that Bionca has long argued in her postings as well.

Namely, there's a big difference between being taken seriously as a transgender and being treated as a real person (with real feelings and being shown real respect) versus acting as a pure sex object or being seen as a pure fantasy object by guys who just want a one-time thrill, after which they will toss you aside. Or as Bionca has often lamented, won't even sit with you for coffee for fear of being seen with you. Which is just the most insane thing, since no matter what people are still people underneath it all, so there should be some accountability for treating a fellow human being with respect.

But again, in her defense, Limegirl usually points out that she's talking about hookers visibly strutting their stuff in the street or those TS who are overtly playing up their sexuality (by working sex sites and such) versus those transgenders who are genuinely trying to find a workable daily life, and who are hoping to find acceptance for who they really are inside as a person.

But hey, that's just the way I've read the posts. Then again, that's what I think makes this site and these message boards worthwhile because rather than everyone just talking about sex, sex, sex, you can find people here who are genuinely trying to express themselves or even find themselves and make new friends. So, if someone says something or phrases something a bit awkward from time to time, I think it's okay to just politely ask "Did you mean this or did you actually mean that" to try and clarify things.

[CreativeMind]

*looks at finger*...*doesn't see a ring*... *looks at Hank*...

Well, Bionca if you're getting a ring, let me know which wedding present you want: the blender, the toaster, or the microwave!

Then again, this IS Bionca we're talking about. Proud Geek girl that she is, she'd probably be happier getting a role-playing game extension pack, a DVD set of all the GODZILLA movies, a first person Zombie shooter game, or a CD-Rom collecting the entire run of X-MEN! They'd make good wedding presents too!

[Limegirl]

Well, I don't mean to put words into anyone's mouth, but in defense of Limegirl -- and she can correct me if I'm wrong here -- but based on her series of posts, what she seems to be saying is somewhat similar to thoughts that Bionca has long argued in her postings as well.

Namely, there's a big difference between being taken seriously as a transgender and being treated as a real person (with real feelings and being shown real respect) versus acting as a pure sex object or being seen as a pure fantasy object by guys who just want a one-time thrill, after which they will toss you aside. Or as Bionca has often lamented, won't even sit with you for coffee for fear of being seen with you. Which is just the most insane thing, since no matter what people are still people underneath it all, so there should be some accountability for treating a fellow human being with respect.

But again, in her defense, Limegirl usually points out that she's talking about hookers visibly strutting their stuff in the street or those TS who are overtly playing up their sexuality (by working sex sites and such) versus those transgenders who are genuinely trying to find a workable daily life, and who are hoping to find acceptance for who they really are inside as a person.

Well, thanks CreativeMind for your informative post, you litterary took the words out of my mouth, I couldn´t say it better myself, you put your finger exactly on the spot :respect:

[ila]

So, if someone says something or phrases something a bit awkward from time to time, I think it's okay to just politely ask "Did you mean this or did you actually mean that" to try and clarify things.

You mean like you always do for my posts. Oh that's right, you don't ask for clarification you just jump right in and make statements and assumptions without asking if that's what I mean or asking for a clarification.

[ila]

You want respect but you aren't willing to give any. You seem to have a vendetta against transvestites. To get respect you must give others respect.

so there should be some accountability for treating a fellow human being with respect.

But again, in her defense, Limegirl usually points out that she's talking about hookers visibly strutting their stuff in the street or those TS who are overtly playing up their sexuality (by working sex sites and such) versus those transgenders who are genuinely trying to find a workable daily life, and who are hoping to find acceptance for who they really are inside as a person.


Well, thanks CreativeMind for your informative post, you litterary took the words out of my mouth, I couldn´t say it better myself, you put your finger exactly on the spot

You are both missing my point. I have simply said that if one wants respect one must also give respect. Giving respect means that one should respect the way others dress and act even if it is different than what one likes. I respect the fact that Limegirl wants to be treated as a woman. If I ever met her I would treat as her as a woman. It is not fair however, to denigrate other people who want to be crossdressers, or who work in the sex trade, or who apply their makeup in a different manner. I'm sure all these people would also like to be respected for who they are.

[DL_NL]

Bionca, reading all your smart, funny and heartbreaking posts in this and other topics I wish you weren't half a planet away. I'd like to show you that some guys aren't jerks, and I wouldn't do it to save the reputation of the male sex... :)

[CreativeMind]

You mean like you always do for my posts. Oh that's right, you don't ask for clarification you just jump right in and make statements and assumptions without asking if that's what I mean or asking for a clarification.

Gee, someone's feeling a bit sensitive today. Like I "ALWAYS DO" for your posts, Ila? Maybe my memory's a bit fuzzy here having just woken up, but I don't recall opposing your viewpoints all that much or that consistently -- as if I literally go out of my way to stake an opposing position from you on things. If you feel that way, then I'm sorry if I somehow slighted you since that was never the intent. In fact, I think my last post (the one you are responding to) was pretty darn diplomatic. On the other hand, I'll also stake my own ground and say this: I can't think of a single post I've every put up on these message boards that I can't defend for being my actual viewpoint or for it simply being a playful post that was aimed at someone I've become friends with off-site. And I'm sure those people know who they are, which is why I can make a joke and they'll take it with a smile and laugh.

But going back to the debate at hand, again, I stand by what I said -- Limegirl's posts, much like Bionca has intelligently and passionately written about, stresses her feelings for wanting to be accepted for "who" she is and not for how she dresses or acts as a sexual object. I think that's pretty damn straightforward wish that ANYONE would have, namely to be accepted for the person you are. So, again, I don't think Limegirl has anything against the transgender community -- hell, she's part of it herself. And I don't think she has a bias against stransvestite or cross-dressers if they're doing things to express and be accepted for their true feminine self.

But again -- and I'll say this again, too -- there's CLEARLY a difference between those who are dealing with honest emotions and looking for honest acceptance and respect from the world at large for "who" they are as opposed to someone who is using their sexuality to make a quick buck, or worse who feels so bad or withdrawn or self-conscious (or whatever Freudian term you want to apply) about their sexuality that it then affects their own sense of self-worth. At which point they fall into a sadder sex-worker lifestyle, which I think most rational people would NOT like to see other people being forced into.

And I do mean FORCED since we're talking about a certain community that often has to resort to the sex trade to either make money or get by or to simply exist. And who in their right mind would wish that life on anyone? So, in the end, I simply spoke up because I thought THAT was what Limegirl was trying to say, especially given the fact that it's pretty clear from her posts that Limegirl's English isn't quite perfect. But her actual feelings seemed to ring through pretty clearly to me. She's a TS dealing with so many of the things that most of us can't even begin to comprehend. So, again, I salute both her and Bionca for the posts they've written where they're at least TRYING to explain what they have to go through or what they are feeling or what they have to deal with on a daily basis to be accepted for who they are.

But I wasn't looking to fight with you, Ila -- I was just tossing a little support Limegirl's way since I thought I understood what she was TRYING to say.

[CreativeMind]

You are both missing my point. I have simply said that if one wants respect one must also give respect. Giving respect means that one should respect the way others dress and act even if it is different than what one likes. I respect the fact that Limegirl wants to be treated as a woman. If I ever met her I would treat as her as a woman. It is not fair however, to denigrate other people who want to be crossdressers, or who work in the sex trade, or who apply their makeup in a different manner. I'm sure all these people would also like to be respected for who they are.


Actually, Ila, I'm not missing your point at all.
But I don't agree with all of it.

Do I think people should be given respect for "who" they are? In general, I would say yes. On a basic level, we are all human beings and that acts as a starting point. So, I would agree that if someone acts a bit different or dresses a bit different than me, that's fine -- that's the diversity of life. Some people like to hold hands in public, some don't. Some people like to sit at the front of a movie theater, some in the back. Some people like orchestral music, others like rap. Hey, to each their own.

But I'm going to harp on a notion I brought up above. There's a BIG difference between dressing a bit different or having certain personality quirks (and being accepted for those things) and being someone who works hard each day, who is trying to be themselves, who is looking for acceptance by the world at large...

...Versus those who have fallen into a lifestyle that society, as a whole, isn't so quick to embrace.

Case in point, look at what you just said: "I respect the fact that Limegirl wants to be treated as a woman. If I ever met her I would treat as her as a woman. It is not fair however, to denigrate other people who want to be crossdressers, or who work in the sex trade, or who apply their makeup in a different manner."

Okay, let's go over that list. Respect Limegirl for her feelings and treat her as a woman? Check. Don't denigrate cross-dressers and let them be who they are? Check. Don't denigrate those who apply their makeup in a different manner? No prob, check again. It's not fair to denigrate those who work in the sex trade--

Huh? Wait a minute. How did THAT get tossed in the pile? And I love how you put it right smack in the middle of things you were rattling off. You know, you have a great career ahead of you in politics. That's the textbook way of slipping one past the voters, where a politician runs on and on detailing a long list of things you're in favor of, but then suddenly your ear catches something and you say to yourself, "Wait, did he just say what I think he said?" But by the time you caught it, he's already moved on to other things, so you forget about it, too.

Look, that's a WHOLE OTHER topic to discuss -- namely, how each and every one of us feels about the sex trade and sex workers. That's a WHOLE other topic for debate about whether you think the sex trade should be legit or not, and certainly if you feel "sex workers" are deserving of full respect. I mean, just off the top of my head, I'd say that's a "yes" AND a "no" question. If someone HAD to resort to being a sex worker to get by...they HAD to do something to find some way, any way, to have shelter that night or to put some food into their stomach, I don't know if they'd have my respect, but they'd certainly have my sympathy and compassion and pity. Again, because I don't think anyone should HAVE to be a sex worker to survive. That's about as dark a side of humanity as you can get.

Now on the other hand, if someone CHOOSES to be a sex worker -- if they feel they can make a shitload of money by dressing sexy and flaunting their sexual status and they're just in it for the cash...gee, sorry, but that one's not really gonna get my respect. I'm not really looking to give the Blue Ribbon Seal of Approval to sex workers today. But again, that's a whole other topic on the sex trade as a whole -- so if you want to go down THAT road, fine. We can now have THAT debate as well. But right now it seems...to me at least...that you're suddenly mixing apples and oranges in a debate about "personal respect."

[Bionca]

Interesting turn this has taken. I want to go on record saying I support my sisters 100%. My sisters include natal and trans women, Drag Queens, guys who get a sexy "kick" out of wearing their wive's undies, guys who cross-fress to express their "feminine side" and the whole variety of people who fall somewhere in that mix, but not so neatly. We, all of us, get the same shit for the same reasons. They are my sisters.

In my personal opinion, sex-work is one of many valid ways to make a living. Social opinions make that option more dangerous than it should be. I actually have more respect for a tranny escort who is open about her status and her life than I am with a deep-stealth post-op lawyer who wouldn't breath a word of her past to ANYONE.

My issue with the sex indusrty is that it is often the only option available to trans*women (particularly women of color) to make a living. The flip-side of that is it is also often people's only window into what my life may be like. The images from "Shemale Gangbang 12" become projected on me. So, "forced" or "choice" the decision to work in the sex industry isn't an issue for me. It is the way that industry is used by men to frame the lives and sexual desires of ALL Trans*women is.

[CreativeMind]

Interesting turn this has taken. I want to go on record saying I support my sisters 100%. My sisters include natal and trans women, Drag Queens, guys who get a sexy "kick" out of wearing their wive's undies, guys who cross-fress to express their "feminine side" and the whole variety of people who fall somewhere in that mix, but not so neatly. We, all of us, get the same shit for the same reasons. They are my sisters.

Well, I think that's something we can all basically agree on. That's all that I was trying to stress before. Namely, that respecting people for "who" they are -- particularly as they try to find themselves in life -- would be a starting point we could all agree on. Bionca might view others as her "sisters" because of her own personal situation in life -- meanwhile, to me, they're fellow human beings and should be treated as such. After all, we're all flesh and blood. And we've all got to share this planet no matter what. So showing a basic dignity towards all...fresh out of the gate and as a starting point to build upon...is something that I think we should all strive for. So, I think we can all agree that's a "good" thing.

In my personal opinion, sex-work is one of many valid ways to make a living. Social opinions make that option more dangerous than it should be. I actually have more respect for a tranny escort who is open about her status and her life than I am with a deep-stealth post-op lawyer who wouldn't breath a word of her past to ANYONE.

Well, I can agree with that...and not. As I said in my post above, I think there's a difference between someone "finding themselves" or trying to find acceptance in the world or earn people's respect versus a flat-out acceptance of everything (such as the sex trade) just because it's easy to toss out a covering blanket of acceptance by saying "anything goes." Like I said before, then we're comparing apples and oranges. Then we've gone from discussing "Are you tolerant of TS women" to "Do you believe prostitution should be legalized and that sex work is okay?" Any way you slice it, those are two totally different notions.

Look, if nothing else but to explain myself, let's take it out of the TS and Sex Worker arena and frame things in an entirely different way...

Do I want to respect my fellow human beings? Yes.

Do I get up each day trying to respect my fellow human beings? Yes.

Do I respect people who work low end jobs to pay the bills, for example flipping burgers for minimum wage at the greasiest spoon imaginable or whatever? Absolutely. I admire their courage and conviction for doing "something" to stay fight back, to retain their dignity, and to stay afloat.

Do I respect people...as fellow human beings...who sell drugs to young kids at the local school yard? Hey, that's their way to make a living and stay afloat too, right? So pushing drugs should be cool, right?

Sorry, but not on your life. I have NO respect for someone like that AT ALL. In fact, that drug dealer is lucky I don't whittle down a big stick of wood in order to make a bat, at which point I would go all Sheriff Buford T. Pusser on his ass. (That's a reference for those who have ever seen the movie WALKING TALL. And I'm not talking about the crappy remake starring The Rock. I'm talking about the ultra cool original with Joe Don Baker. Bonus points to the movie geeks who've seen THAT!) So again, we're back to the notion that it's good to give your fellow human beings respect -- but that doesn't mean everyone should get respect. As a society, we obviously have to start drawing some lines over certain things. Personally, I could never subscribe to an "anything goes" mentality. There has to be SOME lines drawn in the sand otherwise we would be a complete failure AS thinking humans and AS a society.

My issue with the sex indusrty is that it is often the only option available to trans*women (particularly women of color) to make a living. The flip-side of that is it is also often people's only window into what my life may be like. The images from "Shemale Gangbang 12" become projected on me. So, "forced" or "choice" the decision to work in the sex industry isn't an issue for me. It is the way that industry is used by men to frame the lives and sexual desires of ALL Trans*women is.

I didn't even know there was a "Shemale Gangbang" 1 through 11!

But I would agree that porn is (sadly) often the only window that men will get into the TS world (or into other things as well). Then again, I've been lucky. I live and work in Los Angeles and have met more than my fair share of transgenders, most of whom have been exceedingly nice or even been good friends at one point or another. And I've heard firsthand (and in some cases seen) the fights they've had to endure to simply be accepted in the workplace or in life in general.

On the other hand, I do worry about the difference between someone being "forced" into the sex business versus engaging in it by "choice." And I say that because sadly I've seen firsthand how some have been forced into the sex trade. I mean, it's hardly a "choice" they made. They were literally "forced" into the life by the intolerance of others. And as a result, it was their sole remaining option to get by. And personally, I think THAT'S something that there should be a stop to. So maybe we have come full circle then to the topic of respect and the power it can grant, as well as the harm that can be caused when you get none...

[milford]

Bianca, I respect everything said here, but it sounds like your looking for a huge deep relationship with someone that most of the time just isn't real, like almost as a soulmate, people go there whole lives looking for this and most will never find it and be completely caught up in it allways saying well he/she isnt the one cause they did this or he/she isnt the one cause they dont do that, I dont think that a soulmate situation exists for everyone, everyone has faults and as long as they treet people with respect and you think there attractive and they think your attractive let the relationship run its course if than you have found a deep connection that is so perfect nothing could break you apart than damn your lucky. It's not like any of us will be married and marriage is a bullshit institution anyway. And if us guys are married then it will probably be over soon after they found out were bangin a much hotter transsexual woman, or dream of doing so. Also our situation is just doomed to be scrutinized and broken hearted in this society, on the male and female side of the coin.:broken:

[milford]

Oh yea, and if I had your looks and your body no questions asked I'd do porn, you only live once, and looks fade fast. Just remember one day the offers will quit coming.